Last week an ‘85 GT Fiero turned up in my favorite salvage. I went over and looked at it on my lunch hour the next day. It was a fairly complete car but boy was it a tired old heap. Someone had gotten the seats, and the only thing that I needed that was also in good shape was the visors. They’re unblemished but the fabric is very delicate. I couldn’t remember if I have spares so I got these thinking I’ll use headliner material and try to re-cover them.
This booklet was lying on the floor. First time I’ve seen one.
Out came the engine cradle today so I could mount the muffler and tail pipes.
I was feeling pretty good about it until I put the cradle back in the car.
Looks like crap.
Sure would be easier to do this with the car on a lift. By the time I got the cradle back in the car I was worn out and didn’t spend much time figuring out the best way to address the issue. This exhaust will be temporary, so I can get the engine running (hopefully) and the car drivable, but I don’t want it to look ridiculous. I might try shortening the driver’s side hanger.
A permanent solution would be to use a small muffler that has the inlet on one end and two outlets on the other, and mount it 90 degrees from the way this one is mounted. That would put the inlet directly beneath the exhaust manifold.
[This message has been edited by Quadfather (edited 04-17-2022).]
Today I made two discoveries that were not pleasant. I found out that lifting the Fiero with the engine in it with the engine hoist boom in the fully extended position puts the hoist very close to its tipping point.
I also discovered that the wheels on my custom-built cradle cart are plastic instead of rubber.
I’ve also found overspray all over the underside of the car and in the engine bay. So much for believing I had been very careful when masking the car.
Of course, I’ve dinged the paint along the bottom of the car several times by taking the engine and cradle out so many times.
[This message has been edited by Quadfather (edited 04-24-2022).]
I shortened the hanger on the driver’s side and that helped a lot.
The muffler and tail pipes need to be rotated down about a half an inch to fit perfectly and to give maximum space for the down pipe out of the manifold. A bungee cord will do for now.
I’ll take a look at the springs on the muffler once I get the engine and cradle out of the car again. That will have to wait until I finish the new cradle cart.
[This message has been edited by Quadfather (edited 04-24-2022).]
I went back to the salvage yard yesterday thinking I’d get the muffler and tailpipes from that ‘85 GT, to have some spares in case my experiment goes seriously awry. Of course the car now looks like a bomb went off inside it. The entire exhaust system was gone, as was the cradle and the doors.
The lack of care taken by whoever removed all these parts is irritating. Somebody ripped the deck lid in half, tore the left front fender off its mounts and shredded the rear quarter panels.
Had the day off from work yesterday so I spent the morning working on the new and improved cradle cart. In keeping with the theme of this project, I'm using whatever I could find around the shop, which includes an old leaf spring, some heavy-walled oilfield pipe my dad got somewhere decades ago and a little bit of square tubing and casters I got out of a dumpster when the company I worked for in Kansas City 20 years ago remodeled its offices. The tubing and casters were designed to hold very heavy video editing equipment so I think they'll be strong enough for what I'm doing.
I needed a way to mount two casters without drilling holes. A couple of big lug nuts from my stash worked perfectly.
I got it all tacked together and rolled it under the car to check for fit, then ran out of time because when you have the day off from work your wife somehow expects you to meet her for lunch.
I might try gluing a strip of rubber onto the leaf spring. Funny how painting your cradle suddenly makes you want to be careful with it.
Well, as a cradle cart, my new cradle cart is a failure.
On the narrow end, which fits between the legs of the engine hoist, I should’ve made the casters flush with the support for the back of the cradle. That way the cart would roll past the hoist once the car is suspended. That was not a pleasant discovery to make with the car suspended high enough to try to roll the engine out the side.
That sent me searching for more steel and better casters, and look what I found. Two outboard motor stands for 10 bucks a piece at a garage sale just down the road.
The smaller of the two contained enough material to make a new cradle cart.
[This message has been edited by Quadfather (edited 05-19-2022).]
I need to adjust the height of the front of the cart so that the cradle sits at the perfect angle to align with the mounting holes on the car, but that can wait. For now I’m still working on the exhaust. I experimented with using modern rubber mounts instead of the springs but gave up. I shortened the passenger side hanger and altered the shape of its bracket.
[This message has been edited by Quadfather (edited 05-19-2022).]
Here’s why the back of the cradle needs to be flush with the casters. I built my engine hoist years before I became a Fiero owner, and I don’t know if store-bought hoists are different, but with my hoist there’s about a half inch of clearance between the Quad’s intake manifold and the body of the car when the body is lifted high enough to roll the engine in or out.
Haven’t had much time to work on the car between work and family obligations. I did finally realize one small change to the springs on the muffler would make it and the tailpipes fit better. Instead of connecting the upper spring, another hook attached below the other two would rotate the muffler away from the engine and tilt the tailpipes down.
[This message has been edited by Quadfather (edited 06-01-2022).]
Making progress. I ended up welding two more spring mounts onto the muffler to get it to sit right. Then it was time to start welding up the manifold to muffler pipe.
As I was tacking the last piece into place, it became obvious that the pipe extends too far toward the rear of the car. The pipe cannot extend rearward past the plane of the muffler. Rolling the engine and cradle under the car one more time confirmed it.
Maybe I’ll get lucky this time and will be able to make the 180-degree bend a little sharper without any trouble.
[This message has been edited by Quadfather (edited 06-05-2022).]
That's not incredible for a 2nd ring. Check the top rings and see how they look. OE rings will not be file fit. You may also want to look into gapless top rings from Total Seal. They're great. You can set the gap in each piece wide for safe operation, but when the pieces go together, the gap goes away completely.
Bore increase * Pi = gap increase
0.010 overbore/hone = 0.031 increase in ring gap.
EDIT: Oops, sorry... search result for something else took me to an old post about your piston rings.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 06-15-2022).]
So much for thinking fabbing this exhaust would be easy. The weather in Oklahoma over the weekend was ridiculously hot and humid, so I worked pretty slowly. I lengthened the horizontal pieces of the exhaust hangers so they’d clear each side of the trunk.
I also cut out the 180-degree bend in the pipe and tacked in a much tighter turn, keeping it on a lower plane.
I was feeling confident, until I rolled the cradle back under the car for another test fit. Naturally, the muffler now contacts the front of the trunk.
Since Sunday I’ve been strategizing how to proceed. The most logical thing to do would be to cut the tail pipes and the spring flanges off the muffler, make my own spring flanges and attach them to the springs with the cradle installed in the car, then hold the muffler in place and weld the flanges to it. Once the muffler is in the proper place, then attach the tail pipes. Sure would be nice to have a lift right about now.
i musta put my exhaust in and out a hundred times to get it right - assuming its right even now.
------------------ Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.
Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.
I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 3800SC, 4-wheel drifts are fun!
I mentioned before that I used to have the username Quad Raider, but after I updated my email I couldn't log in anymore so I created the Quadfather account. Funny thing is I still get notifications at the old Quad Raider email address when someone posts on my build thread, including me as Quadfather.
On the downside, if anyone is sending PMs to the Quad Raider account I have no way of accessing them.
Maybe I figured it out. I pretty much started over. I cut off the tail pipes, then just used the stock spring mounts to see where the muffler sat. Naturally it was in the perfect position.
So then I propped each tail pipe under the car, attached the hangers and then cut a piece of pipe to fit between the tail pipes and the muffler.
Then I tacked the pipes to hold them together.
At first I had the splitters right up close to the fascia. I rotated them down a little to get a little more space.
[This message has been edited by Quadfather (edited 06-27-2022).]
I also decided to change the routing of the pipe from the manifold to the muffler. A walk around the salvage yard turned up this pipe, which has a very nice, tight 180-degree bend in it. It was just lying on the ground, AND it was $12.
Hopefully I can get the exhaust all buttoned up this weekend. Can’t believe it’s taken me this long,
[This message has been edited by Quadfather (edited 06-27-2022).]
I keep finding nicks and scrapes. Most have happened because I’ve been taking the engine out and putting it back in so many times. More work.
And more overspray. I have no idea where this came from, because I sprayed the black after the blue.
I put the engine back in the car one more time to double check the positioning of the tail pipes. I think I’m ready to weld up the manifold-to-muffler pipe.
[This message has been edited by Quadfather (edited 07-03-2022).]
Also cleaned up the throttle body and oil separator and bolted them back on. That got me to thinking about how I’m going to attach the throttle cable. I know I’ve read how to do this but I don’t remember.
Wish I would have saved the throttle cable mount from the Iron Duke.
I checked my spare Quads and noticed one has a mounting plate that was made to be almost universal. Makes sense, since GM used the Quad in so many different cars.
I wonder if Iron Duke throttle cable mounts are the same as the V6 engines. Maybe that old GT is still in the salvage yard in Tulsa.
[This message has been edited by Quadfather (edited 07-03-2022).]
Got the exhaust fitted and tacked together. Now I’m worried it’s too solid, so I may replace one section with a flex joint.
The heat wave makes progress even slower. The fiddlebacks seem to be more common this summer, which makes me worry the heat’s going to last for a while. Oh well.
[This message has been edited by Quadfather (edited 07-04-2022).]
While moving the cradle around I discovered another problem. My slightly modified stock transmission mount has sagged, allowing the transmission to contact the cradle.
Try to ignore the runs in the paint on the transmission.
I’ve started fabricating a whole new mount, which will use the other end of the aftermarket dog bone that I used for the mount on the other side. Thought I’d taken some photos but can’t find them now. I’ll get some this afternoon after work.
[This message has been edited by Quadfather (edited 07-15-2022).]
Talked to the owner of this Grand LeMans. It's a 1977 with T-tops and an Oldsmobile engine. He said he bought it for $800 soon after moving to California decades ago, then learned what a rare car it is.
Hoping to get out there again tomorrow when the temperatures will drop from ludicrous to just ridiculous.
[This message has been edited by Quadfather (edited 07-15-2022).]
One more pic of the exhaust. I decided to put a short flex section in because the setup was just too rigid. It will absorb vibration but also makes it easier to remove and install. The whole thing has so many joints in it now I’m sure it will have a lot of leaks. Oh well.
Next up was cleaning the crap off the big table so I could level up the engine and cradle on top of it.
Took longer to move the junk off the table than it did to get the engine sitting level.
[This message has been edited by Quadfather (edited 07-17-2022).]
The transmission mount I’m making is based on one Fierobsessed used in the swap documented by Sardonyx247. It uses one of the bushings and mounts from a dog bone. It requires drilling a hole in the side of the cradle, passing a bolt through it and the bushing, and welding a vertical plate on the other side of the bushing with a nut welded on it.
These two photos are from Sardonyx’s build thread:
I used the other bushing from the same dog bone to make the transmission mount I documented earlier in the thread, so I like the idea of having a matched set of bushings on either side of the transmission.
First step was making a template out of cardboard.
I screwed up the location for the bolt hole in the cradle and had to weld the hole shut and start over. Decided to wait until I had the flange trimmed and mounted on the transmission.
[This message has been edited by Quadfather (edited 07-17-2022).]
The flange then had to be trimmed so it wouldn’t interfere with the axle.
Then I located the bushing where I wanted it, drilled the hole in the cradle and bolted the bushing in. Then I tacked the bushing and flange together, took them out and finished the weld. Tough to get a good bead, but I couldn’t figure out how to get the bushing out of the tube.
This is the side where I’ll weld in a vertical plate. The nut will be on this side of the plate, with the bolt passing through.
It’s so hot in the shop I wrapped a little early today and went home for dinner. Hope to finish this mount early this week.
[This message has been edited by Quadfather (edited 07-18-2022).]
My family went back to the Pontiac Oakland Club convention on Saturday, and what a cool event it was. So many fabulous cars with great stories. GTOs (both originals and from the 2000s), Grand Prix 2+2s, a ‘67 Bonneville limousine with a 468 engine, even a Phoenix SJ. We saw cars from all over the country. My favorite was a 1970 LeMans station wagon.
Swapped with a 455, and also a GTO hood tach. But the coolest feature was the tail gate. It had the same kind of gate our ‘70 Catalina wagon had, it can swing down or swing from the driver’s side. So cool to see one again.
We also enjoyed seeing almost as many cool cars in the parking lot as we did at the show.
Look at the custom exhaust on this one. I’d love to know what engine that is.
[This message has been edited by Quadfather (edited 07-21-2022).]
It was so much fun to see so many people who love their special cars so much they’re willing to bring them to a show hundreds or even thousands of miles from home. On the downside, I talked to a Fiero owner who turned out to be a dumbass. My son and I were admiring his beautiful 1988 Fiero GT when I mentioned I have an ‘87 and am 11 years into an engine swap. He asked me what engine and I told him a Quad 4. That’s when his inner dumbass came bubbling to the surface.
He asked me if I’m using one of the “later model Quads with the aluminum block,” because an aluminum head on a cast iron block just won’t work. I told him the key is using a good head gasket, but he was just getting warmed up. He went on for five minutes about why I shouldn’t be using the engine I have. I finally told him I’d driven my Quad every day for four years and never had a problem with it. He was still talking when my son and I turned and walked away. During the guy’s tirade, my son had googled Quad 4s and said to me GM never made one with an aluminum block, just to confirm, which I knew already.
We went back to looking at cars and several rows over came upon two more Fieros. One of the owners turned out to be from Collinsville, the next town over from Oologah. He showed us his ‘87 GT and was proud that he’d just had a Maaco paint job just to get it to be one color. We could tell it had been several colors before Maaco painted it red. He was very enthusiastic and was thrilled to hear about my ‘87. Just then a woman stepped up to ask him if he thought her 6’6” son could fit in a Fiero. She yelled for her son, who came walking from several rows away, and sure enough he was all of 6’6”. In the meantime, my 6’2” son told her he could fit in a Fiero so he figured her son could, too.
The owner practically ordered the son to sit in the car. We all watched as he folded himself into it and put his giant feet on the pedals. He said, “See, I fit, I can get one!” The owner was almost as excited as the kid was. It was so much fun to watch. The family was from New Jersey and the parents are members of the club, but I don’t know what kind of classic Pontiac(s) they drive. But I do know that kid’s probably going to be getting a Fiero soon.
[This message has been edited by Quadfather (edited 07-18-2022).]
...We went back to looking at cars and several rows over came upon two more Fieros. One of the owners turned out to be from Collinsville, the next town over from Oologah. He showed us his ‘87 GT and was proud that he’d just had a Maaco paint job just to get it to be one color. We could tell it had been several colors before Maaco painted it red. Just then a woman stepped up to ask him if he thought her 6’6” son could fit in a Fiero. She yelled for her son, who came walking for several rows away, and sure enough he was all of 6’6”. In the meantime, my 6’2” son told her he could fit in a Fiero so he figured her son could, too.
The owner practically ordered the son to sit in the car. We all watched as he folded himself into it and put his giant feet on the pedals. He said, “See, I fit, I can get one!”...
I have a 6'6" friend whose dad is 6'7" and they can both fully stretch their legs out in the passenger seat. never had them try to sit in the drivers, ill have to check some day.
I have a 6'6" friend whose dad is 6'7" and they can both fully stretch their legs out in the passenger seat. never had them try to sit in the drivers, ill have to check some day.
Please get photos. I wish I would've snapped a few of that kid sitting in the Fiero with the gunboats he called shoes.
Fabricated the other side of the new transmission mount. Once again I used the cardboard template method. The metal I used for the first try was too thin, so I looked around the shop for some 1/4" plate. The piece I found wasn't quite big enough but decided it'll be ok to leave some open spots so dirt/liquid won't get stuck behind it. It also already had some holes drilled in it so I just left them.
I drilled a hole for the bolt then used that to keep it in position and carefully marked around it to know where to grind off the paint, and also to show where to put it back in again.
Pulled the engine/trans off the cradle, then turned the cradle on its side to make it easier to weld.
Then reattached the engine/trans to make sure it fits. It does.
Plenty of room between the transmission and the cradle now, but hopefully not so much that it will affect how the top of the engine fits under the deck lid.
This afternoon I'll separate the engine/transmission from the cradle, finish the welding then paint the cradle again. Hope to move on to the next step this weekend.
[This message has been edited by Quadfather (edited 07-21-2022).]
I'm going back to rubber mounts after years of hard poly mounts. I was totally fed up with the NVH that the poly mounts gave! I hope your setup won't be a disappointment for you? Those poly mounts are not forgiving and not fun on anything but a race car (in my opinion).
I'm going back to rubber mounts after years of hard poly mounts. I was totally fed up with the NVH that the poly mounts gave! I hope your setup won't be a disappointment for you? Those poly mounts are not forgiving and not fun on anything but a race car (in my opinion).
Best regards, Rafe
Hi, Rafe,
Yes, that's a legitimate concern, but I figure if I can get this project finished and the car actually on the road, I'll be so happy I won't care about vibration, noise, record inflation, or whatever.
First up was removing the awful insulation from the firewall. This stuff is disgusting.
Also noticed another casualty of taking the engine in and out so many times.
If memory serves I need the pressure switch from the Beretta AC lines, which I can use if I have one line clocked to match the Fiero’s. I’ll have to look that up.
Oh look, more overspray.
And, of course, the engine bay self portrait, the only way I was comfortable doing it.
[This message has been edited by Quadfather (edited 07-22-2022).]
