Like the movie Field of Dreams: " if you build it, they will come". As the supply of good lenses age, and the restorable ones dry up the need for reproduction lens covers will only increase over the coming years. I think if you produce a quality product and get in with multiple sellers (Rodney and the Fiero store) they will sell. For what NOS examples are selling for I would think that $400-$500 a set would be fair.
Since I don't really know the industry, I'll ask a question that may either be stupid or smart.
You can get a used, flood cooled cnc machine for $10,000 to $12,000. Wouldn't it be cheaper to buy a used machine ( if you have the space), hire a programmer/operator on the side, and simply do the machining for the tooling in-house? Seems like you could knock thousands off the cost by doing this. Plus, you could buy the proper machine sized specifically for the lenses which may save you even more money.
Just a thought.
[This message has been edited by IMSA GT (edited 12-30-2017).]
The one issue is that there is a limited market for new Fiero parts. Another issue is that most Fiero owners are cheap and unwilling to pay big bucks for any NOS or NOS equivalent Fiero part. I'm fortunate that I have an extra set of rear GT lenses (used but in good shape) that I took off my 88 GT after I replaced those with a set of GT lenses I refurbished probably close to 15-18 years ago.
Fieros are not considered a collector car so very few people are restoring them.
So calculate how much you would have to make on each set to recoup your development costs, materials costs and profit. Then determine how many set do you think would sell and is it worth it?
Since I don't really know the industry, I'll ask a question that may either be stupid or smart.
You can get a used, flood cooled cnc machine for $10,000 to $12,000. Wouldn't it be cheaper to buy a used machine ( if you have the space), hire a programmer/operator on the side, and simply do the machining for the tooling in-house? Seems like you could knock thousands off the cost by doing this. Plus, you could buy the proper machine sized specifically for the lenses which may save you even more money.
Just a thought.
Genius, pure genius! I don't know why others of us have not thought of this in some way.
It is a win win win.... You buy the machine at a fraction of the price of having them done somewhere, and you then have collateral.... meaning, if things go belly up for some unforeseen reason, you can re-coup the cost of the machine more than likely by re-selling it.
Originally posted by JohnWPB: ... if things go belly up for some unforeseen reason, you can re-coup the cost of the machine more than likely by re-selling it.
Since I don't really know the industry, I'll ask a question that may either be stupid or smart.
You can get a used, flood cooled cnc machine for $10,000 to $12,000. Wouldn't it be cheaper to buy a used machine ( if you have the space), hire a programmer/operator on the side, and simply do the machining for the tooling in-house? Seems like you could knock thousands off the cost by doing this. Plus, you could buy the proper machine sized specifically for the lenses which may save you even more money. Thanks for your feedback. Just a thought.
I learned early on to have professionals involved. These folks know what they are doing from experience. Even trying to do the project myself would put the timeline way out there. The tool is extremely complicated and probably the largest plastics tool on the car. The issues here is not really the cost of making the product but the cost our frugal Fiero friends are willing to pay and so far it is averaging right around where I was hoping it would be. Thanks IMSA
[This message has been edited by kgoodyear (edited 12-31-2017).]
So calculate how much you would have to make on each set to recoup your development costs, materials costs and profit. Then determine how many set do you think would sell and is it worth it?
This is nearly a spot on formula. This next week I'll be working with my prototyper and it is hoped to have a more detailed set of numbers. My intentions are to bring all of your suggestions to the table and work on a strategy. Thank you for your great feedback.
A very good idea but making an aluminum injection tool is hugely complicated and this particular shape has some (particularly one) nasty cutbacks. The tool will probably be the largest tool on the whole car. Using a CNC machine (and a scanner) is not in my bucket list of things i want to do in my retirement. Any other method outside of having it done by a professional would push the timeline way back. Thanks Raydar for your input. I always enjoy reading your feedback.
[This message has been edited by kgoodyear (edited 12-31-2017).]
Like the movie Field of Dreams: " if you build it, they will come". As the supply of good lenses age, and the restorable ones dry up the need for reproduction lens covers will only increase over the coming years. I think if you produce a quality product and get in with multiple sellers (Rodney and the Fiero store) they will sell. For what NOS examples are selling for I would think that $400-$500 a set would be fair.
This issue is going to be an interesting one. Unfortunately agreements preclude me from discussing this part of the process. Thanks for the numbers seajai.
I don't know if your interested I live near a 3D printing company called BasTech, Inc. in Vandalia, OH. I have heard they have came out with metal 3D printing. http://www.bastech.com/ 3D METAL PRINTING In Titanium, Aluminum and Stainless Steel Being something new I have no idea of the cost.
------------------ ∇PONTIAC∇ “The difference between a Fiero owner and a genius is that genius has its limits.”
I don't know if your interested I live near a 3D printing company called BasTech, Inc. in Vandalia, OH. I have heard they have came out with metal 3D printing. http://www.bastech.com/ 3D METAL PRINTING
Our vendor for building the tool and shooting the product is well established. Keep in mind, my frugal Fiero friends, the issue here is not REALLY the initial costs (though I am entertaining investors). Admittedly, the initial investment is significant but this can be mitigated by quick, out of-the-press sales.
So, Imnuts, what do you think you would pay for a set of lenses? I am really interested in your thoughts on this.
[This message has been edited by kgoodyear (edited 12-31-2017).]
My GT lens are in near like new condition so I have no immediate interest. But if really needed some and the quality was near perfect plus had no where else to go $800. Better than converting to another tail light system. Good luck! I almost needed one a year ago when a pickup truck backed into me but just got my bumper.
------------------ ∇PONTIAC∇ “The difference between a Fiero owner and a genius is that genius has its limits.”
Since you are looking for opinions on asking price. Based on personal experience, $500 - 600 per half is realistic. $1000-1200 a set will get your investment back in time, and it will take years to get out of the red.
IMHO Injection molding isn't the best solution. Have you talked to any companies that resin cast parts? There are several companies that specialize in casting reproduction reflectors and taillights on classic cars. For the market this is a better option. Again just my opinion as a Toolmaker.
[This message has been edited by sluppy123 (edited 12-31-2017).]
IMHO Injection molding isn't the best solution. Have you talked to any companies that resin cast parts? There are several companies that specialize in casting reproduction reflectors and taillights on classic cars. For the market this is a better option. Again just my opinion as a Toolmaker.
It is my understanding the resin tool will not hold up to the quantity necessary for a return on the investment. I also don't believe resin based tools can handle cutbacks--especially one like these lenses have. Also, to maintain a perfectly "flat" surface the tool must be properly and perfectly polished and maintained. This is only going to happen with Aluminum.
There have been a couple of suggestions in the resin direction and will definitely revisit it with my prototyper. Here again though, while the up-front cost is not a non issue having a poor quality product would be a disaster financially and politically. I fear the latter more than the former on this forum........ ;o) ------------------ Goody
The beauty of a solution lies in its simplicity
[This message has been edited by kgoodyear (edited 12-31-2017).]
Here again though, while the up-front cost is not a non issue having a poor quality product would be a disaster financially and politically. I fear the latter more than the former on this forum........ ;o)
No matter what you do, there is a certain element of the Fiero community who will feel like you owe them something. You will be accused of lying, scamming, price gouging, etc. I've seen it time and again. The Fiero community is its own worst enemy.
No matter what you do, there is a certain element of the Fiero community who will feel like you owe them something. You will be accused of lying, scamming, price gouging, etc. I've seen it time and again. The Fiero community is its own worst enemy.
Sadly threads have decomposed completely obscured with the stench of red herring. It is, however, this putrescine that motivates me to prove them wrong. The wise thing is not grab the stinking bait.
It is, however, this putrescine that motivates me to prove them wrong.
Who are "them"?
The way your posts read, it's a little surprising that YOU seem to have put yourself into the same suspicious category as Slammed and/or Dallas W. Jolley. That's rather a shame. Why so defensive?
Since you are looking for opinions on asking price. Based on personal experience, $500 - 600 per half is realistic. $1000-1200 a set will get your investment back in time, and it will take years to get out of the red.
While I agree that they are certainly worth this price, I think at this price point, the sales volume would be low.
It truly, and simply comes down to finding the sweet spot where the price is low enough and thus have high enough volume of sales to cover the costs as quickly as possible. This puts my best guess in the $350~$400 range.
It truly, and simply comes down to finding the sweet spot where the price is low enough and thus have high enough volume of sales to cover the costs as quickly as possible. This puts my best guess in the $350~$400 range.
JohnWPB, your range in pretty much in the sweet spot. Do you think having a choice of decorated or not would be desirable?
I give you 100 percent credit, for taking this on, as well as putting a major emphasis on quality. With that said i will answer, your request. I think based on our fiero community, 350 to 375 is the true sweet spot, reason not 400, is simple once you add shipping, for the packing, you would loss people at 400 plus shipping and handling. Trust me I don't say this to be a nah sayer. Next more people as you look into the future stock replicas would be best.. Lastly it will take realistically 8 years before you might start seeing a return. My reasoning is this, most people will sit on the side lines UNTIL they see it is as close to factory as possible, BUT then if it is a 99.9 percent exact, here is what is going to happen. You are already hearing people have a extra sets either mint or nos sitting around (and most are your big spenders) so what will happen, I believe is the trickle down effect. Your release at 99.9 percent accurate, owners with their best set they have they will then put on their car, and they will sell their not so perfect sets on eBay ( you know one man's not mint, is anothet man's perfect) so stocks ones will flood the market, and then it will keep trickling down to the next level of buyers and until all of those real good ones clear out of the market THEN yours will start to sell. I'm not trying to be negative cause i want to see this come to market and i will be a future buyer. I'm pretty sure after reading this most can see, this happening. Now I'm not saying you won't sell any in 8 years, I'm just saying what you may be estimating to sell per year please take this into account. As far as to help sales, hands down I would do the following, have RODNEY give you the thumbs up or down on quality. He gives you the Ok, Go directly to the fiero store, they do a lot over seas and Canada where ebay sellers won't ship. This is just my 2 cents..
[This message has been edited by FIERO JOHN-WI (edited 12-31-2017).]
John, you have some valid points, but I do not see THAT many stock sets existing in hiding any more to "flood the market". Even then, I doubt they would put them on any type of daily driver. I personally would put on a set I didn't worry to much about. Also, just a tip, press the enter key now and then when posting, that was painful to read
As for decorating, When slammed offered up tail lights, the only real thing I saw people asking for was plain clear lenses, This way someone could replace the Pontiac with whatever they wanted to customize them. Ideally it would be prefect if it is a 2 step process, making the clear part, and then adding the interior black and Pontiac lettering. This way you could just sell the clear lenses to those that would want them to alter and tinker as they see fit. Actually this would save you time thats required to do the letters and other black out areas.
I say if personalizing them requires ANY further tooling, or something required on a piece by piece basis, I would steer WAY clear of something like that.
who invited slammed to the party??????????????????????? bugger off, your issue is an inability to deliver a good product full stop.
bye bye
jjd2296, I'd invite Mr. Slammed to the party cuz he came further than any of us were able in all those years. So, gotta give him a lot of credit for being able to create something. Of course, Mr. Slammed made some mistakes, but it could be valuable lessons for us & I'd welcome his feedback.
So, please show respect for others that you would want upon yourself.
Genius, pure genius! I don't know why others of us have not thought of this in some way.
It is a win win win.... You buy the machine at a fraction of the price of having them done somewhere, and you then have collateral.... meaning, if things go belly up for some unforeseen reason, you can re-coup the cost of the machine more than likely by re-selling it.
Yeah, a owner of the X1/9 store did the same thing for the X1/9 community by making some parts in house when a factory from Italy wanted over $100K. Yeah, gotta do it in-house to keep the costs down.
If it comes thru in good quality with Rodney's approval, I'd definitely buy two sets, maybe three if there's a good deal. $400 per set sounds reasonable when you compare to other vehicles' aftermarket taillights. I hope you'd come thru on this cuz it's a long overdue.
Thank you, kgoodyear, for doing this.
[This message has been edited by Fiero Vice (edited 01-02-2018).]
Knowing what our frugal Fiero friends are willing to pay allows us to work backwards and see the project from the consumers' perspective.
This week we are gathering all the data points we can. The more people respond before the end of this week the more data points we can plot and the better decisions we can make.
It's a stinker that these are so costly to produce from scratch, and to state that alone, means they are likely to hold more value than the fiero store offerings which were made from the original tooling.
Interesting to note so many comments on the flaws found within those brand new lenses back when they were still being sold through the fiero store, although I've noted a few folks pointing out the same flaws being found in brand new, original GM lenses. I believe the letter "T" was the most noted.
I own a set of fiero store lenses that are still pristine, I have not been able to bring myself to install them on any of 3 GT's owned between my girlfriend and I. A flaw like this is somewhat forgiving in my eyes, and I would gladly buy a spare set from the fiero store if they were still in production, regardless.
That being said, I anxiously look forward to your progress and end result. I consider myself conservative when sourcing parts and what I am willing to pay, but in the end, YOU still deserve reward for an effort so few dare attempt. Most of us would hope for a humble approach that sets a nice price for us while affording you profit in a larger volume of sales.
One last note, if you consider the likelihood of tails being broken in accidents, a rear collision is typically at fault of the vehicle in the rear. I suffered such an accident with my '85 Trans am and lost the tail lights (all 3 pieces of the grid-style lights), which saw bigger production numbers than fiero GT tails, but are often as difficult to locate in good shape. When the insurance adjuster came along to assess the damage, he could not put a price on them at all, with his own resources.
I literally spent years tracking these trans am tails and their values prior to this incident, so I told him that I had resources valued at $450 or so to replace them. He didn't even flinch and took my word for it, and proceeded to cut me a check including that spoken value.
Perhaps not everyone can be as fortunate, but if you do become a valid producer, it's good to know I won't suffer at the hands of other careless drivers.
Knowing what our frugal Fiero friends are willing to pay allows us to work backwards and see the project from the consumers' perspective.
This week we are gathering all the data points we can. The more people respond before the end of this week the more data points we can plot and the better decisions we can make.
THIS is why I appreciate your responses so much.
(I also think I owe PFF a beer...or two!!!)
Keith, I really think you are on the right track. With them being pretty much "unobtanium", $200 per side, $350-400 a set is a pretty safe bet. There are some of us (me included) that would actually buy more than one set.... even though we have one car, because even if there is a good production run, that may not last forever. I've really thought about changing to a Corvette styled rear end just so I don't have to worry about when the next time a soccer mom in her minivan doesn't see me in a parking lot and backs into my car.
Unfortunately, the scarcity of these lenses and cost for new tail lights have made this product an easy target for those who either outsell their ability to produce (Sure.... it SOUNDS easy....) and others that have been straight up fraud, which has reverberated strongly in the community. The best advise I can give would be: 1.) Take the high road when the trolls get a flaming 2.) Provide lots of pics. We <3 pics w/ updates. 3.) Get involved with the closest Fiero club to you.
Crossing fingers and hoping to see these come to light!
------------------ -Chris '85 V6 SE 4sp (SOLD) '88 GT - Series 3 SC3800 w/ 3.5" pulley, 1.8" rockers, 3" exhaust, 3.5" intake, 3.29 gearing. Installed and tuned by Sinister Performance '99 Kawasaki Vulcan 500, owned since new '09 G37x Sedan w/ Premium & Nav (wife's car) '14 Yamaha FJR - 0-60 in 2.8s w/ 34MPG!!!
There's actually a few folks on the form that have experience in Plastics Manufacturing, so I'm sure that if you ever wanted any feedback, they would be more than willing to help. The company I work with also has a tremendous amount of manufacturing experience in the food, pharmaceutical, automotive, and agriculture areas. Last year they made a 3D scanner that would scan within 1 Micron precision. The same guy that built the 3D scanner brought in his homemade flamethrower a few months later. We've got some pretty awesome folks in the office. My specific focus in life is in quality engineering, with a strong emphasis on the engineering part. If you ever want to chat, shoot me a PM and I'll give you my phone number.
Somewhere between the near future and spring, I'm going to be making a trip out to Oklahoma to visit family. Edmond Oklahoma isn't that far away and could be a side trip.
Unfortunately, the scarcity of these lenses and cost for new tail lights have made this product an easy target for those who either outsell their ability to produce (Sure.... it SOUNDS easy....) and others that have been straight up fraud, which has reverberated strongly in the community. The best advise I can give would be: 1.) Take the high road when the trolls get a flaming 2.) Provide lots of pics. We <3 pics w/ updates. 3.) Get involved with the closest Fiero club to you.
Thanks Chris for some great feedback. Very encouraging.
Sadly, I really can't go into details on much of this stuff but I surely do like what I've been reading!
1) Tolls smell of red herring 2) & 3) I will update this thread ONLY when we hit significant benchmarks. Sorry. Responses to this thread will likely decrease while I concentrate on the tasks at hand. While input from end users may be offered, most is unsolicited and often unintentionally distracting.
Hi guys, I like to thank anyone who has the time and patience (and cash) to try and solve this supply problem...
I like to say (for me)$350-$450ish shipped would be an acceptable price. Please bare in mind that many Fieros are frankly just not worth much.And to large a price for a $2500 car is gonna be a hard pill to swallow. Now there are a lot of highly modded and restored cars,but they are the exception and not the rule.And as many have stated most of these owners are hoarding replacement lenses that will probably never see the light of day..
Please also keep in mind that although you are on this forum asking for opinions and info,there are alot more potential buyers of GT lenses that are not on this forum or looking at this thread. So ultimately offering these through several vendors like TFS,Rodney,BTR(or whatever there new name is) E-bay..etc ,at the same time should ensure a very broad and steady market....for awhile anyways.
And as far DOT,has anyone ever been pulled over by a cop who looked at and ticketed them for Fiero taillights? Even you guys with custom taillights? Now if you live in a state with inspections, keep your old lenses and swap them back later..
I was involved with the whole "SLAMMED TAILLIGHTS" crap..and gonna leave it there and not bring it into this thread...
I hope you get this endeavor going and make a nice product at a nice price point where you and yours can make a good profit and GT owners will be happy with the price and final product .... ...best wishes.. ...Eric....
Originally posted by fireboss: Please bare in mind that many Fieros are frankly just not worth much.And to large a price for a $2500 car is gonna be a hard pill to swallow. Now there are a lot of highly modded and restored cars,but they are the exception and not the rule.
A Fiero is a $10,000 car if you want one that doesn't look or run like garbage. Either you buy one in good shape for about $10k, or you will spend about $10k by the time you get your car sorted out and looking good. $500-2500 yard garbage is going to look and run like yard garbage.
Realizing I never answered your direct question, I'd pay $200 per side or $350 - 400 a set. Right now I have a perfect drivers side and a destroyed passenger side.
I am definitely interested in purchasing lenses. I have 2 GTs My thought on price per set If the cost was $400 I would by 1 set to replace cracked lenses on one car If the cost was $300 I would by 2 sets I could also fix the delaminated lenses on the other car If the cost was $250 I would by 3 sets all that and a spare when some jerk (me) breaks one
[This message has been edited by jaybug56 (edited 01-12-2018).]
Just popping in to put in a good word for Slammed's lenses... They still look as good as they did two years ago when I installed them. Any advice you can get from Slammed about making these things - listen to her.
If these get made and they are around 400$ for a set I'll be in for sure to have a backup pair of flawless tail lights.
------------------ "Discord" Red 1988 GT under restoration!
