I've come to a Y in the road where I need feed back from the Fiero community.
I have had the fiero lenses scanned and prepared for making the aluminum tool to injection mold the part. Originally, my intentions were to drape mold or vacuum mold the lens but this sacrificed way to many features and quality Fiero owners request.
With the new tool, an unlimited number of lenses can be run making the rarity of these lenses a thing of the past. Currently I am considering my options to distribution. What ever the price may be, I believe the prices will be consistent between the vendors.
The part is designed to be far better than the OEM as the plastics of the 80's are no comparison to the plastics of today. No longer will there be any bonding separation with the new mold. Lenses could be customized by the end user and a limited run of smoke-colored lenses will also be available.
What I need now from fellow Fiero owners is an idea of who would be interested in getting a set of these lenses and how much would you be willing to pay. I am also willing to work with those willing to help finance and benefit from this project.
Depending on the response, this will determine first if I will go forward with the project or abandon the project due to lack of interest.
Some of the pictures attached show the lens in various configurations captured during the process of designing the tool.
This project is not like any other attempted by others. This is a high quality scan and the tool digitally built to build an unlimited number of lenses. I will retain ownership of the tool and therefore it won't be destroyed. Several thousands of dollars and man hours have been put into this project to bring it to this point. We are looking for positive feedback, suggestions and concerns you might have. I have included scans to show the effort to date is genuine. I am NOT looking for preorders or any funds unless you are willing to invest in the tool.
[This message has been edited by kgoodyear (edited 12-28-2017).]
Pricing is really going to be a tough nut. I don't think that many guys/gals will want or be able to pay much in excess of $750 for a pair, but that's only my guess. I doubt anyone would want to invest until they see a finished product and get to hold one in their hand. Till then it's just a dice roll. I could use a pair myself.
Outstanding progress on getting them scanned! This was going to be one of my retirement projects, and I am so glad to see someone else is this far ahead in dealing with these... now I won't have to stress much about the lenses anymore... lol.
Making just a cover really never set right with me, and duplicating the original lens was the only way I would want to go.
I can see a price of in the range of $300 to $400 for a left and a right (a pair) not being too out of range for what you have in mind. If you are able to produce them in that price range, I would more than likely order from you.
Volume will be the determining factor as to price to be honest. Machine time / cost to mold them goes down a bit with higher volume parts. The secondary operation of decorating them is where I see some issues also, as in low volume = higher costs.
If you could set up a deal with a vendor (once you have made a few and they have been reviewed by our peers as acceptable) then I am sure someone will want to distribute them retail. As far as distribution, I could see The Fiero Store, and Rodney (if he is still interested) being on-board depending on the quality of the finished product. Ebay would be another outlet if you wanted to handle shipping etc....
Tooling will be a huge up front expense, as I am sure you already know, even if done in aluminum.
I wish I could invest in these with you, but at the moment retirement is looming 6 months from now, so need to keep what I have as far as spare cash until I see how everything works with that.
There may be an issue with DOT approval also.????
I have thought this through quite a bit, so bear with my ramblings......
Congratulations on taking on a very needed and wanted item, and I truly hope you succeed in completing them.!!!
[This message has been edited by railshot (edited 12-28-2017).]
I would suggest a price of 250 for a pair. That would be in line with the aftermarket fastback sail panels that are currently available for which used originals to for the same or more than used fastback tail lights. Ok f you get into the 300+ range you will find that guys will probably rather have a good used set with housing and all for the 500 range instead. Keep in mind repos should be cheaper than originals especially if it’s only the outside lense your producing.
This is my retirement project. My experience to date has been great. Originally, I was going to wait until the beta testing was done but I have to have some idea of the concerns of the fiero community. I know, because I do, demand quality. I have worked and probably will work with Rodney though right at this point I have some decisions tough decisions I will need to make. I hope the feedback is encouraging.
This is my retirement project. My experience to date has been great. Originally, I was going to wait until the beta testing was done but I have to have some idea of the concerns of the fiero community. I know, because I do, demand quality. I have worked and probably will work with Rodney though right at this point I have some decisions tough decisions I will need to make. I hope the feedback is encouraging.
Well, I see I am not the only one then that had this in mind as a retirement project!!
Working with Rodney is an excellent choice by the way. The man is as demanding of quality as anyone I have ever met, and he will be more than honest with you about everything.... he has my deepest respect because of that.
Tell him I say hi when you contact him. We had discussed this very subject face to face, and he is really gun shy about lenses the last time I spoke with him
Naysayers are one of the main reasons I developed this project away from the forum. Development to this point has been a blast and worth every dime and minute we have invested.
Naysayers are one of the main reasons I developed this project away from the forum.
Suit yourself. Forum members and Fiero owners in general would no doubt love to see this project succeed. However, you'd be well advised not to turn a blind eye to lessons learned from past failures/fiascos that have occurred and been thoroughly discussed here.
Realistically, I could see spending $500 for a pair. (I did spring for the Slammed overlays, @ $300?) I might be more interested in some lightly smoked lenses, with the absence of the PONTIAC lettering in the center - or even just bare, smoked lenses, provided they could be painted. (I'm one of those people who doesn't leave anything stock.)
The truth of the matter, though, is that I have a 7/10 set on the car. I also still have my unused set of overlays, and a set of "tired" lights to mount them on. So I'm probably not one of your more "eager" customers.
I do wish you well, however. I'll be watching.
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 12-28-2017).]
I think a price range of $400 to $500/pair would be something most avid Fiero owners would go for if they truly replaced the originals. By the way, many of us would also like someone like you to reproduce the GT quarter windows with the correct curvature and fit, it would be awesome if in the future you were able to partner with a supplier like the Fiero store to help in promoting and selling these tow replacement products. Good luck!! Curtis
[This message has been edited by Curtisk1060 (edited 12-28-2017).]
Our plans are to run decorated smoke colored lenses, clear smoke colored lenses, clear lenses and decorated clear lenses.
The neat part is the end user should be able to visit their local sign store and have a set of decorations custom made for their car.
At this point, with the injection molding, we have several options available for the decorations. One option for sure will not be the welded/fused decoration used in the OEM!
[This message has been edited by kgoodyear (edited 12-28-2017).]
As stated above, $250 would be great! However that I think honestly is a bit low. $750 as mentioned above, I think is too high. NOT because they are not worth that for your time and effort, due to the fact that us Fiero guys are quite thrifty, if I have learned anything at all from this forum over the past 10 years.
$350 seems to be a sweet point in my humble opinion, yes a chunk of change, but also something that most here on the forum could swing for. You are going to make more money here on quantity, than on mark up I would think.
Set them at $750 a pair, and sell maybe 5 sets. Set them at $350 and maybe sell 100 sets. Set them at $200 and sell 200 sets, sell them at $50 and sell 1,000 sets It comes down to making them cost worthy enough, that they sell in enough quantity.
Lastly, do NOT believe all of the "Me Too!" posts. I have seen time and time again that EVERYONE wants something and says they will buy it, till it is actually for sale and you can hear crickets. I have seen this over and over again. Even happened to me with the Stickers I used to produce. I had 20 people begging for a "Super Unleaded Only" sticker to replace the unleaded only inside the gas cap for those with 3800SC swaps. I spent a few hours re-creating the hollow font that I could find NOWHERE, ordered the materials, and printed out a run of 30 of them. I PM'd each person, and in the past 2 years I sold one single sticker. Maybe the $2 price, including shipping, was FAR to much for people LOL.
This is all my humble opinion, and I could very easily be looking at it wrong.
Lastly at somewhere around $300 I would definitely purchase a pair. I have a new set on my car, and even a new OEM set wrapped in a hundred blankets in the back of the closet. However, not a day goes my that I do not feel anxiety when parking my Fiero in a parking lot that something would go wrong. To have a viable replacement available at beckoning call would bring a MUCH needed sense of relief!
Lastly, I could not fund your operation by any means, but I could potentially front a couple thousand dollars if needed to get things going, Seed money if you will.
[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 12-28-2017).]
No doubt there are plenty of projects to tackle. I've learned a lot and really enjoyed working with the company to develop it. I agree counting people who say, "count me in" is risky and is already a part of the risk factor.
Believe it or not, because of the cut backs, this lens is probably the most complicated plastic part on the whole car. It is really a poor and complicated design from the factory. We thought about simplifying it but there were just too many compromises. I am mitigating my exposure by making it like the OEM. There are several features on the lens that just render it impractical to use drape molding. This injection method though is much more expensive.
Keep in mind while we are ready to send it to the tool maker, I really need to asses my risks.
Keep in mind while we are ready to send it to the tool maker, I really need to asses my risks.
Do you need to [assess] your risks, or do you mean you're risking your asses?
I agree with John. It took me many years to sell 50 $10 dollar Jacking Instruction Decals, and I think very few of them went to the 'Me, Too" bunch. Somewhere in the $300-400 range for rthe lenses would likely sell well. That would be for stock lenses. Custom should cost more, of course.
I've been a Toolmaker for 18 years, designing and machining injection molds. I suggest you get quote to build the tooling and another quote to actually have the tools ran, then decide on a acceptable asking price. An aluminum tool of that size isn't going to be cheap and the fact you will need two tools, one left one right is going on drive the tooling cost up. My guess is 12-15k for each tool, way more if the tool is designed with slides to get the correct undercuts and such on the lenses. Even more $$ because the tool will need to be polished to a mirror finish to get an optically clear part out of it. Iwish you all the luck in the world! I've thought about trying this but the $$ just isn't there.
[This message has been edited by sluppy123 (edited 12-28-2017).]
The 300-400 price range is in the ouch area for a person with a stock car and the option to just paint them (like I did) and only have true Fierro guys know what was done. That being said they would be great to be able to buy at that range if you wanted factory original or custom stuff starting at that price range instead of the normal arm and leg people are asking for. All that being said, since you are looking at cost to produce/profit/demand I will say $500 for the set would be the top I would shell out for them. Any higher and I would have a very hard time spending the money. The advice about most Fiero guys being thrifty (me cheap) is very true.
I have an excellent set on my car and have bought two extra sets of mediocre quality. One set is missing several tabs in back. I would love to have a new set, preferably with the backs also (future project?). A price of $750 without the backs would be hard to justify. $400 to $500 without the backs might work well. Many naysayers will probably come around once they see the product and be willing to fork over the bucks.
If someone to pair up with of choice could be Rodney, or The Fiero Store. They have done this before (TFS), and understand the process. These are 2 respectable vendors and have experience bringing reproduction fiero parts to market. Give them a call before anything.
I think if you would share the molds with the Fiero store to make these, it could be done.
The reason I am responding to this topic is I have interest in being a potential customer for the GT lenses.
Originally posted by kgoodyear: Naysayers are one of the main reasons I developed this project away from the forum. Development to this point has been a blast and worth every dime and minute we have invested.
Even if yours are a new copy of weak OE part... If you are not going to make DOT legal part, say "With the new tool, an unlimited number of lenses can be run making the rarity of these lenses a thing of the past" is BS because even Clear Covers made "better then OE" that don't have correct DOT labels etc can cause problems for buyers and you. NHTSA can recall aftermarket parts for missing or bogus DOT labels and other problems. Example: http://fmvss108.tripod.com/ site is old but can use nhtsa.gov to look up recall no.
"and a limited run of smoke-colored lenses will also be available." Tint covers and any HL/Taillight covers w/o DOT label like OE Fiero have (cave Lighbulbs at bottom.) are illegal in many states and even other countries. For just in the US, If buyer get away w/ illegal covers locally then drives into/thru another state can get you stopped by cops. While cops/inspectors may ignore clear covers, tinted covers are an easy target. Worse, You give them legal reason to stop then most go fishing for big tickets and points or better for them to arrest you. Many get stopped first for a minor ticket then get arrested for drugs, guns, etc like Shaneen Allen, former Eagles Josh Huff and others and not just in NJ. Many had to remove Munson clear HL covers to pass inspection and/or stop getting tickets. (if the kit is kept in the car at all because of poor lighting.) Some states have Fines and Points for "Equipment Violations" so can be a big problem for people w/ speeding and other Moving Violations too.
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
It's a 30 year old "niche market" car. I don't think anyone cares about DOT... anything. Especially tail lamp lenses. People are putting LED tractor trailer lamps in the back of Fieros, FFS.
Smoke tint (I specified light smoke tint.) might get you stopped, but I'm willing to take that risk, if I buy them. I'll just install brighter lamps. If the PoPo wants to check you out, they'll find a reason, no matter what you're doing or not doing.
Edit - I followed your link. There's not a thing in there that leads me to believe that anything we could do with our lenses (other than tinting them too dark) would cause a violation of the code you quoted. an issue. (Corrected since the "visibility" page is still "under construction".)
According to the article, the two sticking points seem to be the absence of reflectors, or the absence of a red lens. The red or amber colored parts of our particular assemblies are separate lenses that, for the scope of this discussion, would remain untouched. The Fiero's reflectors are either in the bumper, below the lights, or in the side markers. They are not a function of the lights themselves. I think you could do just about anything with the clear outer lenses without worry.
If the tint is a sticking point, I might suggest that instead of tinting the lenses, a black mesh "screen" could be printed on the inside. That would serve to hide the "insides", while allowing light out, when the lamps are illuminated. IF we want to get all freaky about it.
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 12-29-2017).]
Since these are just the outer lenses, I'd be willing to pay maybe $350 for both, knowing that I would have to have the housings and interior parts, and swap them over. BUT, I'd have to see them, first.
You're further down this road than many have gone, but your price point is going to be a problem. Fiero owners are notoriously cheap. $350 is unrealistically low. Others have priced the tooling to get these made and it's easily in the $10-20k range. Price per unit produced will be low, but it will be difficult to recoup your investment in the tooling.
The other problem you will have is tire kickers. Whatever number of people you have who say they are "100% committed" to buying a set, count on MAYBE a quarter of them actually opening their wallet when the time comes. Ignore any "maybe" type answers. I've been restoring tail light lenses for a few years and out of all the people who contact me, at best a quarter of them actually proceed with the job, and I think I am underpriced for what I do.
Fierofool: LOL!!! Thanks for the lesson! That made my day.
This is fantastic feedback. I'm getting a pretty good idea what thrifty members think would be a fair price. It is very close to what we estimated.
While we have given some thought to the legality of these lenses, I admit it has not been thorough. Our thoughts are if we make them like the OEM the fuzz isn't going to care or even know.
I would suggest that if and when you complete a set of repeatable build quality lights you first and foremost send them to someone who will give you an accurate assessment as to the quality of the product you are bringing to market. I would suggest Mr. Rodney Dickman if he agrees to do so. He will be BRUTALLY honest with you. He won't sugar coat it and he may even pizz you off but, you will know the truth and have a better idea of how to market your item(s).
If you haven't read up on the 'Slammed' saga of lies and broken promises you should. Many a lesson to be leaned.
Good luck with the endeavor.
[This message has been edited by steve308 (edited 12-29-2017).]
So, crazy question. Why are we focusing on traditional construction methods using extremely high start up costs? Has anybody looked into other options like 3D printing?
I am somewhat familiar with this "slammed" saga. I certainly don't have a good grasp of it as I believe it is irrelevant to me. To date, my project is self financed and overseen by professionals in their respective fields. I am not going to do anything foolish financially. We are still seriously evaluating moving forward with the tool design/building. All this feedback is quite encouraging and exciting.
So, crazy question. Why are we focusing on traditional construction methods using extremely high start up costs? Has anybody looked into other options like 3D printing?
This is a very good question. The problem is production numbers. 3d printing and vacuum molding are limited as to the number of copies that can be made from a tool. The tool, in fact, from vacuum molding could be printed but because of the undercuts in the design of the lens it limits how the molding plastic can be removed from the printing.
We have looked at every possible angle to build it "cheaply". There were just too many sacrifices we had to make. These sacrifices would not be favorable to a demanding and frugal Fiero community.
[This message has been edited by kgoodyear (edited 12-29-2017).]
I don't post anymore but do lurk. I will never make Fiero products again so I am available and willing if you want to pick my brain. But it sounds like you have it covered. I do however have a lot more time, experience and investment into tail lights than anyone else.
View my opinion however you like.
If I were you, starting completely from scatch, I would be casting tail lights instead of injection molding. We went through so many different versions of tooling getting them right. By the time they were close to ready for production, the company I was working for at the time saw it as a better idea financially to sell the tooling than continue the project with the limited market. I have moved far away from Fiero stuff so I have no clue what is going on with them, but the last I knew they belonged to a manager at Kel-Tech.
With a good ultracal form for multiple casts of silicone tooling, you could have enough tool to last several hundred lenses for a significantly smaller investment. We are talking $3k max compared to $20k on the lowww end. Zero to very little trial and error, no tool preheat, no experimenting with different plastics, no injection machine, no large footprint, and no expensive operator. Just a pressure vessel and a repeatable measuring/filling system.The tooling would only be two parts as the small undercuts wouldn't be a problem for removal. You would have a front and back tool and that is it. The shrinkage on a platinum at that size would be negligible and there are readily available polyurethanes that could easily handle the task.
My understanding is that DOT is a self-attestation. No need to pay for 3rd-party testing.
You, OP, the manufacturer, certify the lights as being compliant.
That means that you test the lights according to DOT requirements, and if they meet the relevant requirements, then you have the markings engraved in the mold.
Document the above testing correctly (photos, etc), so if the day comes that you ever get challenged regarding the compliance of the lights, you just pull out your report.
If you need to buy any equipment for compliance testing, add it into the tooling budget of the project.
Edit: Obviously, each variant (clear, smoked, etc) would need to be tested.
[This message has been edited by pmbrunelle (edited 12-29-2017).]
While we have given some thought to the legality of these lenses, I admit it has not been thorough. Our thoughts are if we make them like the OEM the fuzz isn't going to care or even know.
My sentiments as well. The Ogre goes into EVERY thread related to LED's, Mirrors, Brake boosters, Caliper upgrades, Headlight housings, LED replacement bulbs, Glass, and lenses and preaches DOT rantings. Doing this once to bring attention is fine, but to just beat a dead horse over and over and over and over and over again is pointless.
We are adults, and we can decide to install a product on our car or not, and assume any and all risks that go along with it. Just a simple disclaimer from you, the manufacturer, stating "For off road use only" covers you from liability.
I can see the need for DOT certification for some items, like window glass or other safety items, and some things I wouldn't want without that certification. But I just can't see a real problem with lenses, especially non-fluted lenses, even if they were glass instead of plastic. Honestly, I've never had any inspection station or police officer check my light lenses to see if they were DOT compliant. But, I know of people who've been given compliance warnings for having smoked lenses or lens covers, and I was told by a police officer that at least one of the fog lights on my Opel Manta had to be yellow.
The side marker lights on the Fiero are most likely out of DOT compliance specifications for color, most having faded to the point that they no longer meet the standards for DOT approved red or yellow.
Doing some quick math, if you have $25K into the project, you need to sell 72 sets at $350. Every set after 72 is profit. I'd think that even with the Fiero community being cheep, you can sell over 72 sets. If the product is made well, and word gets out that new lenses are being made, you will sell many more than 72 sets.
Good luck and i'll buy two sets when you make them.
Doing some quick math, if you have $25K into the project, you need to sell 72 sets at $350. Every set after 72 is profit. I'd think that even with the Fiero community being cheep, you can sell over 72 sets. If the product is made well, and word gets out that new lenses are being made, you will sell many more than 72 sets.
Good luck and i'll buy two sets when you make them.
Rob
OHHH how I wish $25k was the bottom line! It is far greater than that. Rob, your logic is sound and logical but there is quite a bit more that goes into formula. Thanks for the feedback!
We realize It is only logical we make them affordable for our frugal Fiero friends. It cost money though to do this right. Providing we do go forward, it will be done right and be affordable.
who invited slammed to the party??????????????????????? bugger off, your issue is an inability to deliver a good product full stop.
bye bye
I neither know the details of events surrounding Mr Slammed nor do I care to know. Given the content I appreciate his feedback far more than the red herrings that inevitably seem to infest so many other threads.
It comes down to making them cost worthy enough, that they sell in enough quantity.
