I posted the following on the 3800SC Swap Facebook page, but wanted to make sure that it was broadcast to a larger Fiero audience.
I’m not one for business bashing, but if this message prevents an accident or even prevents someone’s death, then it’s worth posting it. This is a message to anyone using the Arraut Motorsports Slalom kit or any of the Arraut drop spindles. I ordered a slalom kit for our 24 Hours of Lemons F40 replica build. During our 1st race last weekend in NOLA we had both the DS & PS side steering knuckles break during the race. BOTH knuckles BROKE during the race. These are supposedly race proven parts that broke during the very 1st race!!! (See attached pics) WARNING: If you are running the Arraut Motorsport Slalom kit or their drop spindles on your Fiero,... PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE check your spindles/knuckles ASAP. This is a serious danger to anyone using these parts on their Fiero. PLEASE help spread the word. Thank You!
Wow, I've never seen their products installed but man, how much thinner could they have gone with the metal? That is a horribly manufactured part. Hopefully no one was hurt.
[This message has been edited by IMSA GT (edited 04-14-2018).]
Wow! That is a serious problem! From the video you posted, it even appeared that you were simply driving pretty much in a straight line when it failed.
It is hard to tell by looking at the photos, but the metal almost looks like a porous cast type metal, aka pot metal.
The bottom line is that there is something seriously wrong if the failed on the first race, on such a smooth and well maintained track.
[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 04-14-2018).]
After having a set of those spindles in my hands (I installed a set for a local club member), I'm not surprised that they broke. The spindle is a critical part, so IMO it needs to be over-engineered. But the Arraut spindles appear to be made "just good enough".
That said, I have the Arraut cradle conversion kit in my Fiero (for installing an '88 cradle into a pre-'88 Fiero). And it's great! No complaints at all.
It looks like it had been cracked for a while. A clean break will be a light grey, but if there was a hairline crack for a while, that material starts to rust and discolor. From the picture, there are several areas that look discolored and would indicate a pre-existing crack prior to the final failure event.
Well the design itself leaves all the pressure literally on a piece of pipe that is cut in half. Thin metal or not I bet I could put a pipe wrench on there and twist those ends off.
Those need to beefed up considerably . They look like cheap lawn mower parts.
I would like to point out that the business has gone thru a few hands....I don't know if there has been any variability introduced into the manufacture of these, but that is a distinct possibility....Older ones may be good while later ones may be weak....or vice-versa.
A history of dates/ownership may be helpful.......
There is also someone in "the community" that is looking to buy them. (The company.) I won't name names, but I'm willing to bet that this will get fixed.
When did you purchase the spindles? I am running on two of my cars
I purchased the slalom kit from Richard Arraut 8/11/16. I even visited Arraut Motorsports personally while on a business trip. I met with Richard and toured their shop before I purchased the kit. I went with these specific knuckles because of a recommendation by Richard Arraut. He said they were stronger than whats normally included with their slalom kit.
It took nearly 3 months for the kit to be delivered, and it was missing half the pieces required for installation. Richard even got the control arms wrong because I had requested the +1" option for the fronts. Richard then had to send me several follow up packages to complete the entire order, but it still took us more than a year to get everything installed correctly.
[This message has been edited by RatsunRacing (edited 04-15-2018).]
Fence post. I see fence post. That is some thin walled crap right there.
Yep,.. looks like these were made from VERY thin tubing and then they tried to reinforce with 1" square tubing. Same type of square tubing used to make rod iron fences.
Here's a picture after the PS broke on Sunday. We cut away the broken "pipe" piece and replaced it with a piece of spare roll cage tubing in order to finish the race.
There is also someone in "the community" that is looking to buy them. (The company.) I won't name names, but I'm willing to bet that this will get fixed.
This is BS!!! Someone needs to make this right!!!
I spent A LOT of money with Arraut and put my trust in the fact that they were building race proven products. I seriously doubt we'd have this kind of failure if Held was still building these parts.
Unfortunately, Arraut shut their doors on 12/31/17 and I cant get them to answer the phone (never could!). I've even emailed all the Arraut email addresses I have for Richard & his brother Kenneth. I've even messaged them via their "still working" facebook page & so far NOTHING!!!
Does any one know if their sister company West Shore Fabricating is still in business?
If anyone can help me get in touch with Arraut (or whoever is purchasing them) I would appreciate it.
Thank You,
~Allen Wilson Email: RatsunRacing@Yahoo.com
[This message has been edited by RatsunRacing (edited 04-15-2018).]
From an engineering standpoint, here is what may have made the difference. Since that is just tubing that was notched and then welded on a jig, the top support strut did it's job but they made the lower support strut completely useless. Had they done the same support for the bottom as the top, this may not have happened. Here is what I mean. See the square in my photo and notice how high it supports the top ball joint....literally all the way to the top of the spindle. The bottom one is just a straight-across brace that supports exactly where the piece broke. Its a simple error that could have cost a life. They should have copied the top brace angle to the bottom:
[This message has been edited by IMSA GT (edited 04-15-2018).]
From an engineering standpoint, here is what may have made the difference. Since that is just tubing that was notched and then welded on a jig, the top support strut did it's job but they made the lower support strut completely useless. Had they done the same support for the bottom as the top, this may not have happened. Here is what I mean. See the square in my photo and notice how high it supports the top ball joint....literally all the way to the top of the spindle. The bottom one is just a straight-across brace that supports exactly where the piece broke. Its a simple error that could have cost a life. They should have copied the top brace angle to the bottom:
Good analysis. That said, design errors will always happen. That's what it is to be human.
I would be able to offer an electric power steering kit for a Fiero, but I don't... something could go wrong and I'd get sued to the Moon and back.
Part of OP's message appears to be one of genuine concern for other Fiero enthusiasts. The other part of OP's message appears to be one of anger/wishing to tarnish Arraut's reputation.
Good analysis. That said, design errors will always happen. That's what it is to be human.
I would be able to offer an electric power steering kit for a Fiero, but I don't... something could go wrong and I'd get sued to the Moon and back.
Part of OP's message appears to be one of genuine concern for other Fiero enthusiasts. The other part of OP's message appears to be one of anger/wishing to tarnish Arraut's reputation.
The concern is genuine. I'm using these parts in a controlled race track environment... Anyone using these parts on the street should be concerned as well.
The anger comes from the fact that I trusted someone to provide a solid race proven part and it failed during it's very 1st use. I'm now out of pocket a lot of money with no real resolution, and still have a busted race car that can no longer compete until another solution is found.
It's kinda hard to tarnish a reputation, when the company has already closed its doors and is now trying to sell off it's inventory.
------------------ ~Allen Wilson Ratsun Racing
[This message has been edited by RatsunRacing (edited 04-15-2018).]
Originally posted by RatsunRacing: .......and still have a busted race car that can no longer compete until another solution is found.
I know nothing about these kits, just about engineering items safely for vehicles so here is my question. Can a stock Fiero spindle be used on those arms and you can compensate for the drop by adjusting the sleeves on the coilovers?
Ironically I just received an email from Dave who used to be on here as "Bloozberry" expressing his concerns. He agrees with my analogy of the structure failure but also provided photos of his Held Motorsport spindles. Now keep in mind, his were from Held while yours were from the new owner Arraut. Notice the difference in structural support:
Note the support gussets going all the way to the top and bottom ball joint cups:
Here is a front view. Notice the support on top:
They also added support to the steering arm and a LOT more welds:
From an engineering standpoint, here is what may have made the difference. Since that is just tubing that was notched and then welded on a jig, the top support strut did it's job but they made the lower support strut completely useless. Had they done the same support for the bottom as the top, this may not have happened. Here is what I mean. See the square in my photo and notice how high it supports the top ball joint....literally all the way to the top of the spindle. The bottom one is just a straight-across brace that supports exactly where the piece broke. Its a simple error that could have cost a life. They should have copied the top brace angle to the bottom:
Wow. This thread is startling. I have a set of these I haven't installed yet for my '88. I immediately got them out and examined them and discovered they are not made the same as the ones that failed. The bracing covers 100% of the post and it is not made of square tube but formed, heavy gauge plate. I don't have a way to post pictures but take a look at this old thread. Mine are made like these.
Also, I can't find it anymore but there is an archived thread by Bloozeberry where he got a set as well and posted detailed photos of their construction. It was his thread that convinced me to get a set.
I don't understand why they would make a set for racing that looks like they cut corners on construction when they clearly had a better method already established in making these.
I have a pair of 88 drop spindles that I purchased from Arraut Motorsports about 4 1/2 years ago, they look like the silver one in Dave's pictures. I also have the tubular upper and lower control arms with coil overs. They are their 1" drop spindles that use standard 88 front hubs. When I ordered the kit Richard only discussed how much drop and which bearings I wanted, nothing about "racing spindles" . So far they have held up great but I will be checking them very close before driving it again.
I've installed several items from this ex-vendor. Everything I received needed to be sent back for rework or just I reworked myself due to extremely poor turnaround times.
I guess when I get home tonight I need to go out in the garage and pull mine out of their box and inspect them. Looks like http://www.arrautmotorsports.com/ site has been taken down, but their http://www.westshorefabricating.com/ site still appears to be up. Not sure if their other company West Shore Fabricating is closed down or not, it has a different phone number than what I have for Arraut (616) 837-0425 vs (616) 893-1433.
[This message has been edited by Fiero Vampire (edited 04-16-2018).]
I installed the Arrault big brake system on a Testa Rossa rebody. Had to make my own lines from M/C to prop valve, modify rear caliper brackets and redesign the E-brake caliper mounts. I have never had a good experience with any product from this company. I'm glad they went out of business.
Don't get me started the crap that comes from Arraut MS. I spent a crap ton of money to buy the tubular upper/lower arms, 1.5" dropped spindles, 13" brake kit and more. Other than the fact that every part of the kit needed work to fit, I also had issues with missing parts, parts made wrong (holes drilled upside down, or not at all), bad powdercoat, 12" brake brackets instead of 13". When it came to the spindles, I had to have two sets sent to me, the first was made wrong and the second had the brake brackets put in two different places. During the process, Richard told me he was between welders. I had to wait 3 extra weeks b/c his "old" welder quit. So the parts are not made in house, they are contracted out. Also, every time I called for help, Richard could not offer any. He had no idea how the parts were made, he was just selling parts. My parts sat for a year or so b/c i was not sure i wanted this crap on my car. I eventually put it on and I pretty much regret it every day.
Rob, our story is about the same. At the time of purchase I could not find any bad press online regarding Arraut. So i proceeded with my purchase. I even visited his shop while on a business trip in order to make sure they were legit. Seemed like the typical fab shop at the time.
It took nearly 3 months to get our Slalom kit. Then another month of back & forth waiting on the missing aprts that should have been included with the original kit. We then spent the next year+ trying to get everything to fit. I even contacted Richard & Ken Arraut last fall regarding an issue where we couldn't get the brake kit to fit properly. Their response was that I didn't order the correct bracket spacer and would need that in order for the Wilwood calipers to fit the 12" corvette rotors. One thing after another, after another, after another, after another!
I see you have their rear bumpsteer correction kit, as well. I'm not a fan of that, either. After installing one of those in a friend's car, I decided to go with the '88 cradle swap instead.
It looks like they used different spindles with their Slalom kit. I bought their setup to use with the factory 88 front cross member and my drop spindles are much different than the pair that failed. The spindles I have look like the silver one pictured above in this thread that came from Held Motorsports. Also all my parts fit together without any problem and I got all the parts I was supposed to get, did I just get lucky.
