Wait until you have a laundry list of items that need verification by putting the engine + cradle into the chassis. You'll minimize the total number of "in and out" times.
Freya was on the road yesterday and will stay on the road till the salt, hopefully to Christmas. Shez a daily driver. We came across some stuff we wanted and since the dump truck was in the vicinity we had to do what we had to do.
i did some crawling under her and realized i had not accounted for the drive shaft. Such things are why i only tacked it, but the hard work of making the motor mounts was the grinding to fit the stock mount, not the extreme exterior.
i would like to get the belts on and the stuff welded up, but i have only one alternator on Freya, and the one from ol Betsy is seized up and the case is cracked, but maybe i will use it as a template to get the alternator bracket fabbed up. But other stuff as well, like the dogbone, the left hand dogbone from ol Betsy seems to be the right size to fit on the right of Freya, but i won't know till its in the engine bay. Might not be adequate in any case cuz its aluminum. So much to decide, but i got all the bolts out of the block from the exhaust manifolds. Only one bolt left - for the EGR tube. Can't seem to find a socket to fit. What to do?
jon
------------------ Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.
Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.
I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!
i bot a T stat housing for a duke. Gotta modify it, by cutting off the bottom and welding in a custom part. Question: do i need to keep the little tube at the bottom of the housing?
From the outside:
Looking inside:
------------------ Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.
Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.
I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!
Looks like the cardboard alternator bracket proposal needs to be raised up a little bit. i will have to design/build it with the dogbone/tensioner bracket so i can make sure that the belt doesn't rub where it shouldn't.
Has anybody done the heater hose return like this? Using the stock plastic elbow, but they sell upgrade kits for the 3800 with metal elbows. How to hold it in? A cuppla set screws drilled and tapped into the waterpump?
------------------ Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.
Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.
I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!
I hate to tell you this,but your belt routing will not work.The idler belt pulley on the coil bracket will hit on the trunk hinge bracket. I've done a couple of these and it's always the same.So slide the engine up in there before you finish your routing to see how much you need to move that pulley.Depending on where your engine is placed on your cradle will dictate how much room you will need. Just trying to save you work.
Or you could tap the elbow port (3/4 NPT) and install a hose barb.
Would i need to drill? Cuz the taps are available on amazon for $17C free shipping.
thanks jon
------------------ Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.
Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.
I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!
Originally posted by Don Kraus: I hate to tell you this,but your belt routing will not work.The idler belt pulley on the coil bracket will hit on the trunk hinge bracket. I've done a couple of these and it's always the same.So slide the engine up in there before you finish your routing to see how much you need to move that pulley.Depending on where your engine is placed on your cradle will dictate how much room you will need. Just trying to save you work.
Do you have a pic of or a thread for your solution?
thanks jon
------------------ Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.
Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.
I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!
It's been 15 years since I completed it and 16 years from when I started it,so my memory isn't real clear.But I know I removed the coil bracket that had the idler on it and made a bracket to hold the coils and that was bolted to the exhaust manifold bolts.Then I used the bolt hole from the bracket in the front of the head or another empty bolthole in the head, and bolted the idler to it that I took off the coil bracket.You may have to shim it to get it aligned and you will need a different length belt.The belt will end up being close to where it comes around the spring loaded adjuster pulley.You may need to get a different diameter pulley,I just don't remember,sorry.You will want to mount the coils somewhere other than the back of the motor,it will make life easier.They can go anywhere. Here's a picture of it,you may see enough to help.It's the best I got. Over the years I installed two 3800's and a 427 V8, all with the 4t65e auto transmisson.None of them required cutting the spaceframe or anyother part in the engine compartment. Hope this helps,good luck with your project.
The only way the idler pulley interferes with the hinge box is if the engine is too high on the cradle and too far forward. I've done several of these swaps with no interference problems.
No issues even with full stack intercooler.
[This message has been edited by olejoedad (edited 05-06-2020).]
You are right,Olejoedad,it will depend on how the engine and tranny are mounted on the cradle.Back in the old days before anybody had tried to put a 3800 in a Fiero we had to use what was available or make brackets to make it fit.I used the front U shaped engine bracket from a chevy or pontiac transport van with a 3800 and the stock transmisson mount from the Fiero.That's why you need to get the engine in to try it to see if it fits.Now days there are mounts available which is great and makes the swap easier.
Think that the pipe mite be too long, as the fill sits above the supercharger. Whatcha think? Gotta add to that 3/16 for the base plate, n the fill cap as well.
It mite look as if i am shooting up, but my camera is level. The fill is probably 1" above the supercharger. i think i should cut down the pipe 1" and maybe angle it a bit more. What i dunno, is that WCF has the heater line parallel to the main coolant line, but FF Dallas has his at a 45degree angle. What to do what to do? i know that Loyd has the heater line running over (touching?) the valve cover, which i don't like.
jon
------------------ Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.
Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.
I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!
T stat housing. i split the difference between the West Coast Fieroz system (aligned radiator and heater hoses) and Fast Fieroz Dallas (radiator and heater hoses at about 90degrees) and put the heater hose about 45degrees from the radiator hose.
In place. i'm gonna keep all the stuff on the motor, so it has to work around the boost bypass (is that what it is?) In the pic it says "Doodad", so i could keep it straight with the harness.
jon
------------------ Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.
Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.
I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!
You are right,Olejoedad,it will depend on how the engine and tranny are mounted on the cradle.Back in the old days before anybody had tried to put a 3800 in a Fiero we had to use what was available or make brackets to make it fit.I used the front U shaped engine bracket from a chevy or pontiac transport van with a 3800 and the stock transmisson mount from the Fiero.That's why you need to get the engine in to try it to see if it fits.Now days there are mounts available which is great and makes the swap easier.
Don
Hi Don, hope you're doing well.
We have built our own mounts for years, as it's the only way to properly locate the drivetrain. Everything else locates the unit too high on the cradle.
Hi Joe,long time no see,hope you and yours are well. Maybe Longjonsilver should get a set of mounts from you to make his job easier.Every little bit helps when it's your first build.
Originally posted by olejoedad: We have built our own mounts for years, as it's the only way to properly locate the drivetrain. Everything else locates the unit too high on the cradle.
There are lotsa reasons that i want to get the engine low in the cradle, so Joe, take a look at these:
According to my calculations, this will sit down next to the cradle and i will have to extend the cradle support under the mounts. i drew the chalk lines cuz after i tacked it together, i realized that the rear mount mite be hit by the driveshaft, so i mite have to shorten them but that does not affect the height. How did you attach the cradle support so the engine was low? If i get the engine low enuf, then the mounts mite not hit the driveshaft.
jon
------------------ Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.
Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.
I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!
[This message has been edited by longjonsilver (edited 05-08-2020).]
So here it is on the engine. The bottom of the 79 Dodge truck 318 V8 motor mounts are about 3/4" to 1" above the bottom of the oil pan. So if the plate that i'm gonna make that will weld to the sides of the cradle is about 1/2 way down the sides of the cradle, then my motor should be about the right height. i will have to brace the cradle for that to work. Not a problem.
Also visible is the alternator bracket cardboard mockup. Looks like it will interfere with the motor mounts. Gonna have to fix that. Either i keep them separate or i tie them in together. Dunno right now. But what i do know is that there is a bolt on the side of the block 8mm x 1.25 that i can use to brace the alternator so that it won't wiggle left to right (relative to the car) or in other words, front to back (relative to the motor).
jon
------------------ Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.
Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.
I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!
Jon,you best also get the transaxle on there and see how that lines up, and how are those mounts are going to work,where are the axles going to be with the cradle.
Jon,you best also get the transaxle on there and see how that lines up, and how are those mounts are going to work,where are the axles going to be with the cradle.
Don
Exactly, that is why i just tacked the engine mounts. They also seem crooked. Dunno if its just an optical delusion or not. But i am driving Freya this summer and the swap will actually take place next winter. Right now i am fabbing up what i can, and leaving final decisions on some things (motor mounts) till i drop the cradle.
Meanwhile, i'm working on my electrical system. Studying and deciding how to do it. Reduced the instructions from Sinister Performance to a digestible format.
Before
After
Its now in a font that i can read with my old eyes, and devoid of anything that i don't need AT, AC, Cruise.
jon
------------------ Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.
Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.
I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!
i have been reading threads on the 3800 issue and as i perused the subject looking for info on harnesses, i came across ideas about how to plumb the heater into the car. As we all know, the 3800 has two holes that plumb into the heater thru the alternator housing. Which one to use and which one to delete? Opinions differ, at least as i can tell when people use words to describe things: this hole that hole, big hole small hole etc. Well here is a pic i posted for my own information. Tell me whatcha think?
Note the orange cord in the water pump. IMHO water from the heater core will flow INTO the water pump from the rear (left) hole and INTO the water pump from the radiator in the front (right) hole. The hole in the lower intake manifold is to be blocked off, as the water flows OUT of the engine thru the thermostat housing. Whatcha think?
jon
------------------ Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.
Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.
I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!
Feed the heater core from the hole in the lower intake manifold. Return the heater core flow to the hole on the left side. Both holes can be tapped to 3/4" NPT without drilling. Use the OEM 3800 thermostat housing and thermostat ( drill a small hole in the thermostat flange for and air bleed) The 380O thermostat housing has an air bleed screw on top.
So plumb it the original way? Except without the alternator bracket plumbing? Would that help to cool the lower intake manifold? which would be a benefit!
Yeah, i can tap 3/4" threads cuz a tap is only $17 canadian on amazon, free shipping. i've tapped lotsa things before, so i can do one again jon
------------------ Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.
Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.
I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!
Those of you that have been following this thread mite remember that i put Freya's battery in the front, many years ago, and then two winters ago i moved it to under the passenger headlight. Well the battery cables i made up were jury rigged and spliced. A 3800 SC deserves better than that (not to mention Freya), been looking for one of these for years.
A trip to Kenny U-Pull uncovered this off a Buick:
And the ground cable:
And check out the condition: it looks brand spankin new. Flambant neuf! i thot it would be hard to get it out of the car but 15 minutes later it was in my bag. Only 20 bucks at the checkout, and a new one from Buick couldn't look better. This car was beautiful, no rust, leather, no rips, clean, but wrecked slightly in the R front. Made me sad to tear into it like i did.
i'm gonna use the extra hot wire to run back to the alternator, using parts of the existing hot from the battery, and i'm gonna ground the battery to the frame and then from there run back to the block using the existing battery ground. i believe in having as little IR drop as possible. ;-)
N then, thats not all - i got an alternator from a late 90's S10 with the 4.3, cuz it looks like it will be easy to build the bracket holding it in place.
i also got a tensioner - i need a ribbed one for the accessory belt, however this one pulls clockwise, and i need one to pull counterclockwise. i'm gonna combine the dogbone with the tensioner as one unit. Gonna have to engineer it in conjunction with the alternator bracket.
But wait! Thats not all! You also get the OBD2 port, which i failed to pull off ol Betsy, so i got it off another Pontiac with a 3800NA
Gonna go back and get some stuff for Charlie, my 92 S10.
------------------ Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.
Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.
I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!
------------------ Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.
Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.
I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!
Here is my alternator bracket showing the supports (mocked in cardboard) to the front of the alternator.
And here is a look at the back showing the brace to the block, also mocked in cardboard. Dunno at this time what gauge metal i will use for the braces. 3/16 is too heavy (?) and 16 gauge is too light. Another trip to the steel supply?
jon
------------------ Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.
Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.
I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!
And here it is painted with the back support to the block to keep it from flexing.
And the cardboard mockup beginning of the upper tensioner and dogbone combo bracket.
Tensioner to be put in this location, but in combo with the dogbone.
Disregard the yellow mark, the green circle is where its at!
jon
------------------ Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.
Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.
I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!
The completed alternator bracket, including brace back to the block:
Beginning of the dogbone, tensioner bracket:
jon
------------------ Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.
Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.
I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!
------------------ Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.
Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.
I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!
So plumb it the original way? Except without the alternator bracket plumbing? Would that help to cool the lower intake manifold? which would be a benefit!
Yeah, i can tap 3/4" threads cuz a tap is only $17 canadian on amazon, free shipping. i've tapped lotsa things before, so i can do one again jon
Have you used the 17 dollar tap yet? I saw it as well and was wondering if it was any good.
Waiting for the tap and looking for a tensioner to fit my application. Counterclockwise tension, about 4" center to center, offset wheels. Anybody know?
The tensioner will go in the upper part, the lower part is for the dogbone. Can't fab the dogbone cuz dunno exactly where it will need to be. Gotta put it in the car for that to be determined.
These are the wires that i won't be using (?) Lotsa spaghetti. i just pulled the pins that the pinout said i wouldn't be needing, n then pulled the wires out of the harness. Gotta check a cuppla things, two wires, a ground(?) n a 5V have nowhere to go. Poor lonely wires!
jon
------------------ Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.
Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.
I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!
Altho i mite run the black wire to a ground. Can you ever have too many grounds?
jon
------------------ Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.
Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.
I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!
OK, i know someone already told me this, but i can't seem to find it now. The OBD2 connector. 4 wires from the Buick OBD2 connector but only two wires from the computer on the GTP. Purple goes to purple and tan to orange, no? that leaves two black wires, one with a white stripe. They get a ground no?
jon
------------------ Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.
Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.
I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!
Originally posted by blazin': DLC Pin 2 purple wire goes to C-1 59 Pin 4 & 5 black & white are ground Pin 9 Tan goes to C-1 15 Pin 16 pink is power 10a fused per at all times
OK Thanks. purple pin 2 to purple C1-59, orange pin 16 to hot at all times, black and blacknwhitestripe pins 4 and 5 to ground. i will need to add a pin 9 for tan which does go to C-1 15.
------------------ Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.
Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.
I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!
Decided to use another tensioner like on supercharger for the alternator/waterpump accessory tensioner. i used a straightedge off the crank pully as a baseline. i have to wait for the new tensioner to finalize the hite of the walls of the bracket.
Here i have spacers to measure the height of the walls of the bracket. Tensioner clamped to spacers and base.
It should look something like this finished. My accessory belt tensioner will be more at about 2 oclock while operating.
Using this system, my alternator is between 1/2 and 8/10 mm out of alignment. How accurate is accurate enuf?
------------------ Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.
Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.
I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!
Wired up my OBD2 port, obtained from a Saturn had 7 wires - an extra black and a blue. Wired as above cept three wires to ground n the blue left extra.
All wired up for now...
Now the orange is supposed to go to hot at all times. Where is the best place to find this? Which raises the question bout all the pink wires running from the engine. Are they hot in run only? Or are some of them hot at all times? And where should i tap into for the hot in run?
------------------ Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.
Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.
I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!
