Start making complete clear and tinted sets. Let customers paint what ever they want. I worked for a company who made reproduction vintage Honda parts. We sold the parts without the honda logo on it, and sold a honda stencil also. I went through all the posts. I didn't see how much they would cost.
So....you want me to sell the lenses without the logo and expect the customer to do it correctly with the correct materials and not make a mistake? Ooops, made a mistake. I have to buy another set of lenses for $400 + postage and handling. By the way, clear lenses will be available if you want to try.
I really do wish people would stop telling me how to run my business. You don't know what I know and you don't have the capital investment or the risks.
I really do wish people would stop telling me how to run my business. You don't know what I know and you don't have the capital investment or the risks.
It is a shame that it had to come to being so blunt. I have met Keith in person, and spoke many times in length on the phone. He is one of the nicest people I have had the pleasure of meeting.
I know everyone's intentions, for the most part, are good. At the same time, It has been stated clearly, time and time again, how this is being done, the process, the legalities and such over and over.
When all is said and done, we are going to have a product, in my opinion, FAR superior to the original. With the way it is being done, I am "starting" to doubt there will ever be a need for a disclaimers such as "for off road use only". The way it looks to me right now, is If you were to get pulled over with these lenses on your car, there will be NOTHING illegal about them in any way, even if the police officer pulls out his electron microscope on the side of the road to inspect them.
It's tough but be patient. It's not easy, I know, as I need a set of these so badly for my recently acquired 87 GT.
[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 02-17-2019).]
Originally posted by kgoodyear: I really do wish people would stop telling me how to run my business. You don't know what I know and you don't have the capital investment or the risks.
quote
Originally posted by kgoodyear: I really do wish people would stop telling me how to run my business. You don't know what I know and you don't have the capital investment or the risks.
quote
Originally posted by kgoodyear: I really do wish people would stop telling me how to run my business. You don't know what I know and you don't have the capital investment or the risks.
Originally posted by pmbrunelle: If you didn't want that to happen, you should have kept quiet until you had product ready for sale.
There we go, telling him what to do again LOL ! ! ! !
I have a good question for you. If you were hypothetically going to make something for the Fiero, how would try to determine the demand for the product, to get an idea of possible sales, without saying you were thinking about making something?
It is pretty customary , and standard business procedure for most companies, to announce when something is going to be available. Check out GM's annual shows, CES, The worlds trade fair and on and on. Apple and Google certainly do it every year. They tease us with what they are working on, and the new features to be expected. Closer to home, the Fiero Store posts a "Coming Soon!" announcement when they are developing something.
On another note, if anyone would take just a moment to read through the thread, he has so politely stated over and over and over and over and over that they have it under control, saying thank you for the suggestions, but they are not necessary. Yet, it still continues......
I have to admit and perhaps apologize for my shortness. The process I have to use has first got to protect YOU, then me and finally my LLC and its assets., Very early on we learned and thought of every scenario on how to go about developing the project. Obviously there are copyright issues that must be addressed. Trying to cut corners would just draw the attention of GM and GM has lots of lawyers and deep pockets. Dealing with GM has been an absolute nightmare and has caused the project to run way over my timeline and threatens my budget.
As for being transparent on the project, there were several reason I decided to be transparent when I was. Mostly, people enjoyed watching the process and the amount of interest is a very important metric for me to use in making major decisions. Those that don't want to know what is going on can simply pass it buy.
Our goal is to have fun making a quality, safe and economical tail light that will please even the most discriminating frugal fiero fan.
------------------ Goody
The beauty of a solution lies in its simplicity
[This message has been edited by kgoodyear (edited 02-17-2019).]
Originally posted by JohnWPB: I have a good question for you. If you were hypothetically going to make something for the Fiero, how would try to determine the demand for the product, to get an idea of possible sales, without saying you were thinking about making something?
The kind of niche product I would build for Fieros wouldn't require a large initial cash outlay... so after quietly making the first piece for my own Fiero (the way I want it done, without input from Tom, Dick, and Harry), it wouldn't matter whether I had sales of 0 or 100 units.
quote
Originally posted by JohnWPB: It is pretty customary , and standard business procedure for most companies, to announce when something is going to be available. Check out GM's annual shows, CES, The worlds trade fair and on and on. Apple and Google certainly do it every year. They tease us with what they are working on, and the new features to be expected. Closer to home, the Fiero Store posts a "Coming Soon!" announcement when they are developing something.
Sure, making early announcements is a common practice... but then you have to expect customer feedback, good AND bad (if there is no feedback at all, then the endeavour is perhaps not profitable). Customers know that changes are least costly to implement before SOP, and difficult/expensive once in production... so coming on here and telling people that you're not done yet is basically an invitation for feedback; before it's all said and done.
[This message has been edited by pmbrunelle (edited 02-18-2019).]
I have no dog in this fight but I do appreciate the constant updates given on the development of the lenses. It's refreshing given the past history of the 'lens replacements' saga just a short time ago. I do hope that the developer, his team and LLC are able to at least break even if and when the lenses are released to the short armed, low slung pockets of the frugal FIERO community. It's truly frustrating when as he has pointed out you must ask permission to make an exact copy of a part or logo for a car and division the parent company abandon years ago. Permission must be granted and the appropriate payment AKA bribes must be paid. I do hope that when released, all those who have expressed a need do in fact place orders. I also hope that the developer releases an "off road only" clear or lightly tinted non PONTIAC logoed second choice for those interested in a custom non stock look.
We will not be making tinted lenses and there will not be "off road lenses" (What ever that would be.) Labeling something as "off road only" means absolutely nothing (in this case). If a product is marked as off road use only and is used "on the road" it falls into the category of OEM. For instance if a tail light lens is tinted but marked for off road use only and they are "on the road" it is illegal. The term is often used to get buyers to feel comfortable buying the product.
If, for instance, a vehicle had tinted lenses and they got rear ended there are liabilities not only to the driver (owner) but also the manufacturer for creating a part that hindered the transmission of the light and did not follow certain industry standards for light transmission. If you do some research on the subject you will find it buried deep in a couple of articles.
For me, the challenges of getting a CLEAR lens through GM are enough for me!
"Permission must be granted and the appropriate payment AKA bribes must be paid."
Bribes? Really? So, if I'm not using something that I own, it's ok for someone to take it without my permission, use it, profit from it and I'm not supposed to be compensated?
"Permission must be granted and the appropriate payment AKA bribes must be paid."
Bribes? Really? So, if I'm not using something that I own, it's ok for someone to take it without my permission, use it, profit from it and I'm not supposed to be compensated?
OMG it is a figure of speech--There aren't bribes for christ sakes!!! Royalties and assorted other frontend expenses must be addressed and paid.
I only posted because words have meanings, and should be used properly.
Licenses and royalties are not bribes, they are part of the cost of doing business.
You know this very well, but others seem not to understand this.
Thank you so much for the kind words. My team and I really are enjoying the challenge and it is support like yours that keeps it fun and a learning experience. And what the hey, I might even make a few bucks in the process!!!!
We met at the 35th. I was impressed with the samples you had on display. My background is in manufacturing management, I have a good understanding of the obstacle course you are navigating. Keep up the good work!
Sorry I twisted up your Monday.. I used the word 'bribes' as a figure of speech perhaps incorrectly for some. Let me restate my thoughts....A person or group endeavors to go to market with a well thought out product that seems to have a demand by a small core of enthusiast. The product (item) has been abandon by the manufacture as being not profitable to continue as new old stock for and in support of a name plate that was also discontinued a number of years ago. In an attempt to do the 'right thing' It is ask of the parent group of the original item permission to use the name and logo on said item. Suddenly they are interested and compensation may be necessary. (most likely it will be)
I am fully aware that official DOT stamps on lights lenses and some headlight bulbs are/were a requirement by law. I do not know the process of getting the 'official stamp of approval' but I'm sure it's not cheap and I applaud the efforts of the individual and his group for their efforts to do the right thing the right way.
I am also aware that the aftermarket is full of replacement headlight and tail light that are sold on Amazon / E-bay and thru other venues. I doubt they are DOT approved or are paying a royalty (not bribe) to the OE manufacture. I highly doubt that any royalty is paid by the aftermarket suppliers for filters, suspension, bells and or whistles to any manufacture unless they are marketing said items with a Logo and or name so yes I understand that by doing the right thing the right way a royalty (not bribes) may be requested if not required.
Again I applaud the efforts being made here. It's refreshing to see the development of the item and to share in the highs and lows of the process being undertaken. After the last debacle we were subjected to for this item, I can't wait for the announcement that the item it complete, approved by the powers that be and finally released for sale. I hope he sells out! Hell, I don't have a GT and don't need a set but I want this to succeed.
Team members are working to get an update to me by the end of the week. It looks like China is back on line after their holiday so that is great news.
Thanks for the feedback.
Originally, GM farmed out their second party parts to another company. Since the start of my project GM has had to develop this approval process in house and so we are on the leading edge of their development as well. This has several advantages. First, is we are both learning how to do this process. We are going to be poised to know how to engineer the next project and they will work out the kinks on their side. We are establishing a great relationship with a lab that does the testing. Some of the tests seem silly at first. For instance, what color the turn signals are or the color of the brake signals are and if my lenses are clear, ultimately they are necessary and satisfy the lawyers. My point of contact at GM encourages me to just go with it. Of course the tests take money but we know the lenses are safe and that makes you safe.
My budget is flexible enough that these kinds of unplanned expenses aren't a threat.
I want to encourage frugal Fiero owners to take advantage of the project and ask questions. I developed this project to learn new things, make a new set of lenses for MY car and maybe make a few bucks in the process.
Have you thought about reaching out to the Warmack brothers (the guys behind the new Trans Am cars) for guidance? Since they successfully obtained a license, maybe they can help advise you? You can reach them through www.transamdepot.com
A bit off topic, but GM doesn't own the name TransAm - it was licensed from SCCA (who has owned the rights since 1966).
...and, now back to your regularly scheduled program.
I talked to Keith on the phone and lots of good stuff is happening with the lenses. He Says things are going along nicely, but wold not elaborate. I tried to get him to tell me something, and he says he just can not release much information at this time.
Through methods, which I can not disclose here, I was able to arrange a little talk with George. He was also very tight lipped. I was about to just give up.
Then it dawned on me! C H E E S E! Yes, cheese. He caved at the mere mention of a nice aged white cheddar
So, according to George, GM has given the green light to have the first 100 sets of Tail Lights manufactured. He went on to say that Papa, (that's what he calls Keith I guess) said that the packaging & shipping details have already been planned out.
This was all good news, and I thought that was it. I was just leaving when he asked me if I had any more cheese. Luckily I had one more piece in my pocket.
While happily munching away, he really spilled the beans. He informed me that the tail lights have passed all of the initial tests to date. They have also been officially certified by GM, and are licensed as a 100% GM product. This means they will pass all local and federal laws and regulations including BOC approval.... errrr???..... DOT approval that is. It was hard to understand him at times talking with a mouth full of cheese. Yes folks they are 100% DOT certified and will have the DOT numbers on both the drivers and passengers lenses just like the factory originals.
He went on to say that the people who signed up on the list will be offered a set in the order in which they signed up. He said that they are not ready for money just yet. Not until they have the lenses in hand and are ready to ship. I tried to get him to tell me where I was on that list, and if I was in that top 100, but I had no more cheese to offer, and he just ignored me and scurried off.
[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 02-28-2019).]
Originally posted by JohnWPB: will have the DOT numbers on both the drivers and passengers lenses just like the factory originals.
That's very good news.
This signals the transition from car-show-only look-good accessory to a true restoration part, applicable to daily driver Fieros... a key element in the preservation of Fieros.
This signals the transition from car-show-only look-good accessory to a true restoration part, applicable to daily driver Fieros... a key element in the preservation of Fieros.
These lenses will also be GM Certified Restoration Part(s) and will have GM approved labeling.
I can not wait... but since we have to and we seem to have a mouse in GM's house (a smart one at that) how about George drop a few wispers in GM's ear to ditch that stupid mid engine corvette and just release a modern Fiero. Seems like a win win for them. Vette guys get to keep thier front engine car, Fiero guys and the rest of the world can get a moden mid engine car... Ahhh we all can dream I guess.
Thanks again for stickig this out, it will take people like you and George to keep our Fieros on the road after all these years.
I can not wait... but since we have to and we seem to have a mouse in GM's house (a smart one at that) how about George drop a few wispers in GM's ear to ditch that stupid mid engine corvette and just release a modern Fiero. Seems like a win win for them. Vette guys get to keep thier front engine car, Fiero guys and the rest of the world can get a moden mid engine car... Ahhh we all can dream I guess.
Thanks again for stickig this out, it will take people like you and George to keep our Fieros on the road after all these years.
I'll pass that request along to .......George. I'm sure he has connections there I do not! (George and John WPB seem to be strange bedfellows. REALLY John C H E E S E was all it took? I need to keep him from my accountant)
------------------ Goody
The beauty of a solution lies in its simplicity
[This message has been edited by kgoodyear (edited 02-28-2019).]
Ok so what does the retail price look like now? You must know that?
quote
Originally posted by JohnWPB:
I talked to Keith on the phone and lots of good stuff is happening with the lenses. He Says things are going along nicely, but wold not elaborate. I tried to get him to tell me something, and he says he just can not release much information at this time.
Through methods, which I can not disclose here, I was able to arrange a little talk with George. He was also very tight lipped. I was about to just give up.
Then it dawned on me! C H E E S E! Yes, cheese. He caved at the mere mention of a nice aged white cheddar
So, according to George, GM has given the green light to have the first 100 sets of Tail Lights manufactured. He went on to say that Papa, (that's what he calls Keith I guess) said that the packaging & shipping details have already been planned out.
This was all good news, and I thought that was it. I was just leaving when he asked me if I had any more cheese. Luckily I had one more piece in my pocket.
While happily munching away, he really spilled the beans. He informed me that the tail lights have passed all of the initial tests to date. They have also been officially certified by GM, and are licensed as a 100% GM product. This means they will pass all local and federal laws and regulations including BOC approval.... errrr???..... DOT approval that is. It was hard to understand him at times talking with a mouth full of cheese. Yes folks they are 100% DOT certified and will have the DOT numbers on both the drivers and passengers lenses just like the factory originals.
He went on to say that the people who signed up on the list will be offered a set in the order in which they signed up. He said that they are not ready for money just yet. Not until they have the lenses in hand and are ready to ship. I tried to get him to tell me where I was on that list, and if I was in that top 100, but I had no more cheese to offer, and he just ignored me and scurried off.
I don't own a GT but may buy a set just in case. I have followed the posts on this dilemma for years. This latest has been amazing to watch. I have been watching an 86 that has been sitting for 10+ years and would not consider it because of the tail lights. Excellent work Keith.
------------------ 84 SE 3800SC Hybrid 4spd 86 SE 2.8/AT
I don't own a GT but may buy a set just in case. I have followed the posts on this dilemma for years. This latest has been amazing to watch. I have been watching an 86 that has been sitting for 10+ years and would not consider it because of the tail lights. Excellent work Keith.
I strongly suggest you buy it. It will never be an investment but more of these GTs need to be saved from the junk heap. (With that being said, I have a parts car sitting in my backyard. Sadly.)
As a side note:
Whether you need the lenses now or not the Fiero GT Tail Light Project IS a limited run--and has an end date after which the tools will be destroyed and again the lenses will become limited.
What is the limit on the run? Do you know what the end date is ? Why are the tools going to be destroyed ? I'm sure there is a reasonable explanation to the last question, I just can't think of it.
quote
Originally posted by kgoodyear:
I strongly suggest you buy it. It will never be an investment but more of these GTs need to be saved from the junk heap. (With that being said, I have a parts car sitting in my backyard. Sadly.)
As a side note:
Whether you need the lenses now or not the Fiero GT Tail Light Project IS a limited run--and has an end date after which the tools will be destroyed and again the lenses will become limited.
What is the limit on the run? Do you know what the end date is ? Why are the tools going to be destroyed ? I'm sure there is a reasonable explanation to the last question, I just can't think of it.
The Fiero GT Tail Light Cover Project is a limited run project. The program is expected to run approximately two years. Signing up early does not guarantee a price that stays the same throughout this run time.
As a business man my obligation is to provide a safe and quality product at a reasonable price to my customers while making a fair return on my investment.
As a business decision, I must keep an eye on the bottom line. I estimate the market will be satchurated after two years. Keeping such a huge (steel) tool in storage in a foreign country may not be cost effective. Shipping the tool home is prohibitive. With capital being used for storage will bite into the return on my investment that is unnecessary. I would expect everyone that is going to need a lens should be able to do so in those two years. While I may keep a small inventory after the two-year run, keep in mind inventory is a liability NOT an asset.
The option to sell the program is an option though in a business setting it would not be a good one for the investor(s). Quantities sold could be low and may not net a return on the investment (making it a liability). As an option, I could sell the tool to a coop of fiero owners. At that point, the coop would have to decide what to do with a very large and heavy piece of steel. The tool will fit presses stateside but finding one big enough would be a challenge. Leaving the tool in China is, at best, unpredictable.
The end date we estimate will be about two years from when we begin shipping lenses. I of course would investigate the cost/return at this time and if the project is still profitable may chose to get an extension. At the same time, in the two year run, if I find my profit margin is compromised I will either have to revisit the pricing or decide what kind of a loss I would be willing to take for the Fiero community. I do not expect to have this latter scenario to occur.
In any case, the Fiero community need not worry about sudden changes in the program.
To place a preorder, (no down payment or obligation),
1) Send email to keith.goodyear@bellyacrestudios.com 2) Select the description and the quantity. - Clear no decoration - Clear decorated (this is like the OEM) - Custom decorated Clear 3) Type your name 4) Shipping address 5) phone number Once I receive your order I’ll put you in the pre order queue and will reply to you in the same email. Lenses are sold only in pairs. We estimate the cost to be $400 USD + shipping and handling + applicable taxes. It is difficult to be able to say when they will be ready as the product must be perfect and certain critical business practices must be in place to protect you, me and my investments. I regularly post progress reports and answers to questions on the PFF Forum: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/098250.html Once they are ready for distribution we will notify you. Here are some videos you might enjoy in the meantime. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zx7-bfBoBiI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EanCjtDkbuc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-HUsJWEtko&t=9s We look forward to hearing from you soon!
I can completly understand why the molds can not be kept by you. However seeing how George has gone through all the headaches of dealing with that fat cat GM, has he looked into selling the molds to GM. Let the fat cat have the certififed product to make in another 5 or so years if the demand arises again. Gm should be able to ship and store (plus have the machines to use) thesre molds with out missing a beat. In the future they can make the money from this endeavor at an extreamly low start up cost and George can make some pennies for his cheese fund at the end. Just a though from the peanut gallery.
