Well today I got some insurance document I have to pay $2000 a year for that has GM's name plastered on it.....and I have no idea what it is really for. Now, don't get me wrong: It is my responsibility to know but....I'm not sure I want to. It just gets us a little closer to the end of the tunnel. We are still waiting for our first P1 run from China; it's a small one but still necessary as we can't go to full production until we get one last test. We are changing our decorating protocol around just a bit so we can keep the cost estimate for the lenses around $400 + shipping and handling. It has been an interesting challenge to shuffle things around to keep the cost down and maintain the quality.
If you haven't placed your preorder yet, doing so helps us with a shortage of data we have on the Fiero GTs out there. You can send your order to either george@bellyacrestudios.com or keith.goodyear@bellyacrestudios. (.......George would love to hear from you.)
.......GEORGE NEEDS A BIG FAVOR FROM FRUGAL FIERO FANS:
If any of you out there are members of clubs. do .......George a BIG favor.
1) Count how many families are in the club. 2) How many GTs are there that either are running or expected to be running in the next 2 years in that club 3) Do NOT count donor cars 4) What is the name of your club. 5) It would be wonderful if you could email this information to george@bellyacrestudios.com or keith.goodyear@bellyacrestudios.
I see you are a fan of the Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster.
Sounds like you'll need one by the time this project is over.
This business with GM sounds like dealing with the town council:
“But the plans were on display…” “On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.” “That’s the display department.” “With a flashlight.” “Ah, well, the lights had probably gone.” “So had the stairs.” “But look, you found the notice, didn’t you?” “Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.”
(Meandering offtopic, I know, but it's for the OP's amusement and to indicate our appreciation of all his hard work.)
This business with GM sounds like dealing with the town council:
“But the plans were on display…” “On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.” “That’s the display department.” “With a flashlight.” “Ah, well, the lights had probably gone.” “So had the stairs.” “But look, you found the notice, didn’t you?” “Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.”
(Meandering offtopic, I know, but it's for the OP's amusement and to indicate our appreciation of all his hard work.)
Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet?
Heheh, just a friendly bump!
Shadow (my "evil black cat") and George are plotting something in the backgorund.... hmmmm???????
Welcome aboard George, glad you finally joined the forum!
We are still waiting for our first P1 run from China; it's a small one but still necessary as we can't go to full production until we get one last test.
This is alarming to me. I have witness garbage polycarbonate Chinese products. They looked fine originally but after time and minimal stress, cracks formed and they eventually fell apart. I will need to see years of testing before I drop money on Chinese made polycarbonate parts.
This is alarming to me. I have witness garbage polycarbonate Chinese products. They looked fine originally but after time and minimal stress, cracks formed and they eventually fell apart. I will need to see years of testing before I drop money on Chinese made polycarbonate parts.
That would be your prerogative. I figure by the next time someone takes up this project (again) and has it all done stateside you will be much older and they will cost considerably more. Don't think for one moment this doesn't cross my mind. I can ask for all the certifications I can but in the end I have to trust my stateside toolmaker who has worked with this same guy for 15 years. You can wait for every test under the sun and it won't mean $hit because we do not have direct control over how the process is done stateside or outsourced. While you are waiting for the next person to do this project, check all the plastics the do come out of China that are quality. In any case, if you do change your mind you need to do it in the next 2.5 years and use a nome de plume when you order it. Good luck!
This is alarming to me. I have witness garbage polycarbonate Chinese products. They looked fine originally but after time and minimal stress, cracks formed and they eventually fell apart.
I guess you did not see the video posted some time ago of a rig pressing one of the first test lenses down, to the point the top surface of the lens, pressed down about 6 inches, bowing the entire tail light inward. To the point the top surface the press was pushing on, hit the surface the test was being done on and could go no further. The pressure was released and the lens went back to its original shape with NO damage.
This is alarming to me. I have witness garbage polycarbonate Chinese products. They looked fine originally but after time and minimal stress, cracks formed and they eventually fell apart. I will need to see years of testing before I drop money on Chinese made polycarbonate parts.
If I am stepping out of bounds here, please let me know, but I do think that this is a GM specified polycarbonate that they have a comfort level with...... I have many years in the industry myself, and have found there is little to no difference between Chinese PC and American made PC as far as meeting manufactures requirements You just may be surprised where most of the plastics of high quality are being made these days.
Personally, I have no issues with China's plastics as they are now as much on the cutting edge as we were many years ago, and have standards that must be adhered to as any many manufactures have implemented. If I were to get another GT that needed tail light lenses, I would not hesitate.... but we all need to make that decision ourselves.....
------------------ There's one in every crowd, and usually it's me. 1988 Solid roof GT!
I guess you did not see the video posted some time ago of a rig pressing one of the first test lenses down, to the point the top surface of the lens, pressed down about 6 inches, bowing the entire tail light inward. To the point the top surface the press was pushing on, hit the surface the test was being done on and could go no further. The pressure was released and the lens went back to its original shape with NO damage.
"time and minimal stress" neither covered by whatever low production parts you saw tested.
If you're familiar with this product, you know exactly what can happen with polycarbonate products. I actually talked to the people who designed it and owned patents on it and they would defend the material till they were blue in the face, in reality, they still fell apart. Of course, it's common in automotive lenses as well but most of the lenses aren't installed with tabs under tension, they are glued on. Despite your typical polycarbonate lens being under less stress than a Fiero lens, I've seen many aftermarkets polycarbonate lenses last less than a year before they craze and crack.
I'm not saying these lenses won't be good, but I'm going to wait to see how long they last, undoubtedly even if you don't produce very many, someone will horde some and sell later. Spend your money how you want, just understand the risks.
Originally posted by Fiero2m4Fastback: "time and minimal stress" neither covered by whatever low production parts you saw tested. ...
You’ve made your point. You’re not going to buy a set yet. We get it. Don’t buy them. You don’t need to sit here and litter the thread though. At this point it’s just negativity about someone else’s investment and endeavor. The adults in this forum can make their own minds up about it.
You’ve made your point. You’re not going to buy a set yet. We get it. Don’t buy them. You don’t need to sit here and litter the thread though. At this point it’s just negativity about someone else’s investment and endeavor. The adults in this forum can make their own minds up about it.
You took the words right out of my mouth. Fine - you don't want a set, quit sh*tting on someone elses work. Make your own if you're not interested.
Thank you kgoodyear for getting this done! 99.9999% of forum members are grateful and supportive, including myself. Looking forward to getting a set!
Originally posted by trivet:99.9999% of forum members are grateful and supportive, including myself.
I have also previously asked about how the lenses will be tested, included accelerated aging. That two of us, at least, are wondering how they will last, because not all polycarbonate is created equal, doesn't mean we are interested in them. It's a question and potential issue that, should it turn out to be an issue, "99.9999%" of the people who bought them will be complaining about in one way or another ("No one told us they wouldn't last!", "How come they were tested for this!", "I want my money back", yadda).
You might not see it this way, but a knowledgeable person asking "How will you handle potential issue X, which I've seen on projects like this?" *is* being supportive.
I have also previously asked about how the lenses will be tested, included accelerated aging. That two of us, at least, are wondering how they will last, because not all polycarbonate is created equal, doesn't mean we are interested in them. It's a question and potential issue that, should it turn out to be an issue, "99.9999%" of the people who bought them will be complaining about in one way or another ("No one told us they wouldn't last!", "How come they were tested for this!", "I want my money back", yadda).
You might not see it this way, but a knowledgeable person asking "How will you handle potential issue X, which I've seen on projects like this?" *is* being supportive.
One post is fine, he’s repeating it and basically dumping in the thread. Let it go or take it to pm’s.
I have also previously asked about how the lenses will be tested, included accelerated aging. That two of us, at least, are wondering how they will last, because not all polycarbonate is created equal, doesn't mean we are interested in them. It's a question and potential issue that, should it turn out to be an issue, "99.9999%" of the people who bought them will be complaining about in one way or another ("No one told us they wouldn't last!", "How come they were tested for this!", "I want my money back", yadda).
You might not see it this way, but a knowledgeable person asking "How will you handle potential issue X, which I've seen on projects like this?" *is* being supportive.
I agree, asking legitimate questions about materials and testing is completely legitimate and supportive, but Fiero2m4Fastback is just complaining repeatedly about testing and how HE/SHE is n't going to buy it. Fine - don't buy it. Continual bashing like his/hers is what keeps vendors from taking the leap and producing much needed/wanted parts for our cars - sometimes they can just get sick of the negativity and say "screw it". I would hate to see that happen here.
Personally I'm thrilled and grateful that kgoodyear is going through all the trouble to get these to market. Ok, so maybe 99.9999% is an exaggeration, but I'm confident the majority support the effort.
I know what it takes to put something like this into production and it's a lot of hard work and long hours. To get to the point....I'm still in, 100% Greg
[This message has been edited by GDC88 (edited 04-08-2019).]
As if a Fiero GT that someone has restored and spend $$$$ on is going to sit outside enough to have UV problems on the taillights.
Perhaps the point is that we have no idea how much "enough" is, do we? And we definitely don't know how much every GT that might end up with this product spends outside.
I'm all for getting these made. I'm also not a lemming and over the years here I've seen sane, rational people shouted down for asking reasonable questions about people and products that ended up going far askew (at least two GT tail lights projects among them), by people who seemed crazed (no pun intended) to get something made.
Keith seems like an up front guy and appears to have gone further on this than anyone since TFS lost the GM molds. Huzzah to him. And asking a question about quality/durability/aging in what's rapidly approaching a 15 page thread does not in any way seem unreasonable or take away from what he's done and intending to do.
PS- beating on a brand new something with hammer is an unscientific test of toughness, not durability.
This is the worse kind of ignorance. If you can't handle discussion about bolycarbinate lenses, the internet might not be the place for you. I would be interested in a first run of these lenses if there was feedback for other lenses this company makes that are being made my the same manufacturer. My concerns are just realistic, I apologize if that hurts your feelings but it changes nothing.
This is the worse kind of ignorance. If you can't handle discussion about bolycarbinate lenses, the internet might not be the place for you. I would be interested in a first run of these lenses if there was feedback for other lenses this company makes that are being made my the same manufacturer. My concerns are just realistic, I apologize if that hurts your feelings but it changes nothing.
First off, your opinion isn't any more valuable than anyone else's, and you've already stated it. REPEATEDLY. Your opinion doesn't mean enough for it to take over a thread like this. You made your point, you don't need to dwell on it like a kid who talks about dinosaurs incessantly. Wait, see if you want to buy them after a while if they're still around. Or, don't. That's your prerogative, you don't have the right to demand that any other steps be taken by someone else unless you yourself are investing in the front end, period. I asked Keith a question, he answered it. I didn't like the answer but me bringing it up over and over won't change anything. No one's "feelings are hurt", you're just not willing to take the answers you've been given and are now threadcrapping.
No one's "feelings are hurt", you're just not willing to take the answers you've been given and are now threadcrapping.
LOL, your feelings are hurt and you're trashing the thread. I responded to comments directed at me and will continue to do so no matter how red in the face it makes people.
LOL, your feelings are hurt and you're trashing the thread. I responded to comments directed at me and will continue to do so no matter how red in the face it makes people.
I feel that the durability question is legit. We just don’t know a lot except it will take the impact of a hammer, for now... will it be just as durable a couple of years later? A decade later?? No one knows the answer since no long term durability testing was done. With that said, if they lasted 5-10years, that would seem reasonable to some but not to all, especially after almost a $500 purchase. The problem here is that most of us need this part and am willing to take what we can get since nothing else is agailable. I am a full time mechanic and have seen many a headlight/ taillight last just a few years then off to the garbage can they go. And the result is angry customers... people don’t want to replace the same parts over and over. But in the end, it is what it is, an aftermarket part that is sorely needed and only time will tell how long they will last before issues show up if ever.. and I will be in line to purchase a set when they are ready ‘cause I like many others want/ need them. . -Crasian
I have a solution! Just wait 10 years before you buy them, then you'll know exactly how they'll hold up! Personally, I'll take a leap of faith and pull the trigger on a totally reasonably priced pair of tail lights before they are all gone.
[This message has been edited by Dragonfish (edited 04-09-2019).]
I have a solution! Just wait 10 years before you buy them, then you'll know exactly how they'll hold up! Personally, I'll take a leap of faith and pull the trigger on a totally reasonably priced pair of tail lights before they are all gone.
I'm seeing the headlights of today's cars lasting 10 years, more or less. They are up front and exposed to a lot of abrasion from road debris, sand and chemicals as well as most headlights are angled so that they get a lot of direct sun exposure. The Fiero tail light lenses are not exposed as extensively, and are angled that they do not get as much direct sunlight exposure, and definitely not the head-on sandblasting and debris strikes.
If anyone is worried about exposure, get a car cover and cover the vehicle when it's parked in the driveway. I'm not worried about their longevity, but I have car covers.
So the great question seems to be buy a new tail light lens that may or may not last 10 years or stick with the old tail light lens. So lets look at the issue.
Old lens.. They are delaminated, cracked ect but have lasted 30 years, for the most part, for most of us. Good shape orginals are very hard to get and you pay for them. You can refinish them or have the done and still deal with the possible pealing of the clear coats and brittle old plastic. (I run a refubrished set on my GT)
New Lens.... alot of unknown as far as the long term life of these, all we can go on are the claims of the manafacture about the quality of thier product. They have been proven to be very tough in the impact and abrasion range, (watch the videos there is alot more than hitting them with a hammer) These will not be hard to get and expensive (if George has his way)
So you have a choice, buy or not.. trying to debate the long term life of a product in this forum is just a bad idea. There has been research done on the price point that will sell these to make a profit, if this product is put to simulated long term testing the price goes up and the demand goes down... and we probably do not get new lenses. Then we are stuck with just the old lenses that are going away and getting crazy expensive. We are all adults and understand what we are spending our money on. I have never heard anything about any warranty of any kind.
One last point, if I may, if some one has a question about these can we just let Keith answer. He has proven to know what he is doing and is quite capable of answering questions about these. Making this thread a mess with an "debate" about anything to do with these, in my opinion, is just bad form. Let Keith take care of his business and all the issues with it.
Perhaps those that are SO concerned about the long term durability of the product should contact Keith and see if he will provide you a set of prototype lenses. Then you can put them in your multi-million dollar environment chamber and test them yourself. Or better yet, just buy Keith some environment chamber time. I am sure the kind of testing that would satisfy you would only cost a few hundred thousand dollars. Because, let's be serious, those worrying about durability would be the first to cry foul when the projected price of a set of lenses increased exponentially.
It's a simple matter of choices really, like Easy8 was saying. You can keep your cracked, faded, de-laminated tails that makes your otherwise beautiful GT look like a hoopty. You can find your unicorn, never installed OEM tails, pay $1200+ for them, and PRAY desperately for divine protection from soccer moms driving minivans, distracted teenage drivers, random flying road debris, even your own kids on their bicycles. You can 'take a chance' on restored tails that cost as much as Keith's lenses, realizing the quality of the finished product is not based on established manufacturing processes in a mass produced environment but the talent of ONE individual and his paint gun.
OR you can 'take a chance' on a $400 set of lenses that will likely outlast the OEMs in both durability and appearance by decades. No it's not scientific, but just a gut feeling that sometime in the far distant future, the last Fiero GT that has good tails will have a set of Keith's on it!
[This message has been edited by FastOwen2XLL (edited 04-09-2019).]
OR you can 'take a chance' on a $400 set of lenses that will likely outlast the OEMs in both durability and appearance by decades. No it's not scientific, but just a gut feeling that sometime in the far distant future, the last Fiero GT that has good tails will have a set of Keith's on it!
Originally posted by Fiero2m4Fastback: That's not a realistic expectation at all.
Then. Don't. Buy. Them. It appears to not be realistic for you, which is your prerogative. Other people have decided whether the expectation is realistic for them and their investment or not. The rest of us will continue to make our own choice, unless you're implying we're too cognitively impaired to decide for ourselves. Your criticism will neither prevent or alter Keith's approach, nor will it override anyone else's decision on whether or not they want to support him in this endeavor. All of the effort and time you're putting in currently is wasted after you made your original point.
mptighe, do you expect your sage advice to be heeded is a realistic expectation?
HAHA. Hell no. I've learned to manage my expectations when it comes to the interwebz. Realistic expectations pretty much are limited to the occasional tidbit of information, **** on demand, time wasted, and frustration. I got most of the red in my ratings bar from spending time in the Totally O/T section. I've become more "realistic" since then.
IT WOULDN'T BE A TAIL LIGHT THREAD WITHOUT A STUPID DEBATE ABOUT NOTHING!!!
AHHHH!!! THE BLACK PART OF THE LENSES IS SLIGHTLY DARKER THAN THE ORIGINALS!!! THE "P" IN PONTIAC LOOKS SLIGHTLY CROOKED!!!
If you don't want to buy the product, DON'T!!!! Lmao!
In all seriousness, I swear these lenses are cursed! First, the original mold gets lost, then tons of threads and talks about possible reproductions... like clockwork in every thread that shows up, a debate starts, topic gets derailed, and eventually the project gets abandoned.
I'm rooting hard for this project to succeed... Go George!
------------------ "Discord" Red 1988 GT under restoration!
Let's Go Mets!
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
[This message has been edited by Shho13 (edited 04-10-2019).]
I'm a notchie guy myself, I don't have a dog in this fight. But the community needs this product for those Fiero owners that do have those fugly fastbacks....
[This message has been edited by olejoedad (edited 04-10-2019).]
Just to be clear, a set of lenses was sent to GM. They did EXTENSIVE quality control testing, light transmission testing for the clear, yellow and red light that will project through the lenses. The clarity tests passed with flying colors. They also went through durability testing, also passing. All of the testing was done by GM, Yet Keith had to pay for it out of pocket.
As discussed earlier, there is a UV protectant added when the plastic is manufactured. Lastly, the way these reproductions are manufactured, eliminate the possibility of delamination.
All of that said, and after extensive testing, GM determined that they are good enough to put their name on, and sell as a licensed General Motors product.
Knowing all of this is certainly good enough for me.
[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 04-10-2019).]
Looking forward to getting a set!
