"That ain't no Northstar"... I decided that this is such a hard right turn from where the project was going that it needed a new thread... IMG_20180529_194728449 by Joseph Martin, on Flickr Even when I resumed work on this car finally, I wasn't feeling it, I have been struggling with what to do about this project for a long time. Made the decision last Friday to "ditch the bit_h and make the switch" (Wish I had done it on Thursday, could have worked on it all weekend...) IMG_20180529_203249138 by Joseph Martin, on Flickr All the work I did to find the best spot for the Northstar paid off for the first fit of the LS4. The Mad Scientist is pleased... IMG_20180529_203317593 by Joseph Martin, on Flickr IMG_20180529_203303247 by Joseph Martin, on Flickr It seems small after having stuffed a Northstar in...
Sometimes you just have to "blow up" a project, Joe
I just scanned your other thread. what's your plan for the flywheel? Are you just going to redrill the Northstart wheel? I'm guessing by the fact that you have that spacer plate that will be your approach. I'm sort of in the process of the same swap. But I went back to school and I'm a year out from graduating. Plus we just had our first child. So no time or money.
I do know that FieroGuru's starter bracket works well with the F23. I used it with the flexplate to get compression readings. Only to find a low cylinder that I can only hope is a bad DOD lifter. That brought me to a halt.
I did notice there will be clearance issues with the axle just like the northstar. But it does look like there's enough meat to clearance. I don't know what would be a safe clearance is for a CV boot clamp.
How much space is there on the transmission end? Looks like quite a bit on the crank pulley side.
I just scanned your other thread. what's your plan for the flywheel? Are you just going to redrill the Northstart wheel? I'm guessing by the fact that you have that spacer plate that will be your approach. I'm sort of in the process of the same swap. But I went back to school and I'm a year out from graduating. Plus we just had our first child. So no time or money.
I do know that FieroGuru's starter bracket works well with the F23. I used it with the flexplate to get compression readings. Only to find a low cylinder that I can only hope is a bad DOD lifter. That brought me to a halt.
I did notice there will be clearance issues with the axle just like the northstar. But it does look like there's enough meat to clearance. I don't know what would be a safe clearance is for a CV boot clamp.
How much space is there on the transmission end? Looks like quite a bit on the crank pulley side.
I need to get motivated to get back to mine.
At this point I do see reworking the flywheel for the LS4, (it's weird how neat it is to say LS4 with regards to my car... Makes me smile.) An intermediate shaft is the only way to do this, Less than zero room for a tripot at the trans, the LS engine is even wider than the Northstar.
Thanks Bob, I've been fighting against the idea of "being too deep in to change course"... This mindset has lead me down the rabbit hole enough to see the trap. Once I saw how cheaply I could get an LS4, there was no point doing anything but pulling the Northstar, for the first time in a long time I want to deal with this car...
Back when I started the project, it kinda made sense, the nstar doesn't make a lot of lowend torque, so it would play nice with the 282 Getrag, the more I read other nstar builds and the issues the nstar became famous for put a hurt in my desire to work on it... When vintage motocross came along, it was all too easy to push it to the corner and basically forget about it... Then the Indy Hauler, then the KZ1100 project, you get the idea...
Today was another good day... IMG_20180531_110835771 by Joseph Martin, on Flickr Picked up an LS6 intake. After working with the nstar in there, I'm amazed at how much room I have, It used to be a fight for every fraction of an inch... Drive by cable throttle body, LS7 exhaust manifolds, and LS3 cam, on the way. Coming to grip with the idea that I had to spend more money going this way, was the hardest part... (eased a bit by knowing that the nstar was going to need at least another $1,600 when I crack it open.) IMG_20180531_183439174 by Joseph Martin, on Flickr Coming soon, from Mad Scientist Labs, (muwhahahahaha) The handy dandy engine leveling kit. When I originally did the nstar I spent hours working on getting the engine level on the cradle, once in the car, it just didn't look right. For my first fit of the LS4I, I sat the engine/trans combo on the new trans mounts and the right end of the engine on a 3/4" block of wood to get it in the car, once in the car I built the adjusters pulled the block of wood then by turning the trunbuckles I lowered the right end until it "looked right". Now I'll fab up some temporary stands farther out of the way of where I need to work to build all the bracketry, mounts, ect... IMG_20180530_073033069 by Joseph Martin, on Flickr After seeing how it looks in place, I think while it's out, I'm going to move the drivetrain to the left using up some of this room so I can get a longer driveshaft on the right, it's looking a bit tight on the right and if I'm lucky, be able to use the same shaft on both sides.
Cheers Beers n Gearz, Joe
[This message has been edited by motoracer838 (edited 06-01-2018).]
An intermediate shaft is the only way to do this, Less than zero room for a tripot at the trans, the LS engine is even wider than the Northstar.
How much room would be needed? I've clearance mine and I'm getting about 0.160" by grinding back to where the oil pan gasket was recessed. I'm sure I took some out of the gasket, but minimal. I won't do more until I pull the pan to see how much meet is there. It looks like a lot was removed, but I removed mostly the rough casting. The 0.160" is at the cv boot band. I also tapped it a few times at the crimp so I would be closer to flush. Depending on how thick the oil pan flange is, I think I could get 1/4" of clearance pretty safely. But, is that enough?
Picked up an LS6 intake. . Drive by cable throttle body, LS7 exhaust manifolds, and LS3 cam, on the way. .. . . Cheers Beers n Gearz, Joe
Sounds like a similar set up to mine. What ECM are you running with the DBC throttle body? Is there an ecm that does DBC and the 2 wire knock sensors that the LS4 has? I was going to run a truck ECM(plentiful/cheap). But I think I would have to use the single wire knock sensor moved from the valley to the side of the block.
I honestly didn't think a cv would fit in there, looks like you have enough clearance. Given the amount of hp and torque these engines can make without trying, I'm not sure I'd want to run a long/short axle combo. I think there is the potential for some pretty hairy torque steer... I just excorsized some nasty handling traits from one car, don't want to build some into another...
Trial fit #2 IMG_20180601_175220930 by Joseph Martin, on Flickr Moved the package over about 7/8", needed to "clearance" the strut tower a bit to clear the shift bracket, I think this will be it's final location. IMG_20180601_175201262 by Joseph Martin, on Flickr Hell, with a slight notch, there's room for a blower belt... not likely... I do see the potential for a manifold and cam upgrade somewhere down the road, LS6 intake and tb along with an LS3 cam will "leave some on the table". IMG_20180601_180742231 by Joseph Martin, on Flickr For the hell of it I thought I'd toss on a Trailblazer SS intake, didn't think it'd fit, I hate when I'm right... Between Ebay and Summit it's gonna' be Christmas in June next week...
When things go wrong, don't follow them... Joe
[This message has been edited by motoracer838 (edited 06-01-2018).]
LS4's already have the knock sensor on the side of the block, that's it to the right. I'm planning on running the 0411 pcm, I think a flash using a stickshift LS1 or 6 file will get the combo close. The 05 and 06 use a 24x crank reluctor, the cam position sensor needs to be changed from a 4x to a 1x by using the right cam sprocket, I believe that will require changing the timing cover as well, I'll know more when parts start showing up next week. require changing the timing cover as well, I'll know more when parts start showing up next week.
I just noticed you crank sensor is grey, your engine must be an 07 or 08 That means you have a 58x reluctor. (there is an article on changing the reluctor wheel in the July issue of Super Chevy, on stands now.)
Joe
[This message has been edited by motoracer838 (edited 06-01-2018).]
"Even a blind squirrel gets a nut once in a while"... My LS4 didn't come with accessories and brackets, luckily I had parts from the nstar, even luckier, the main bracket bolting to the block in a good spot... IMG_20180602_144335313 by Joseph Martin, on Flickr IMG_20180602_144551957 by Joseph Martin, on Flickr I did have to shim the compressor and alt to get them to line up with the balancer. This gives me a big headstart for this side. IMG_20180602_144155414 by Joseph Martin, on Flickr The top idler will be replaced with a tensioner and set lower to allow the belt to clear the ports. I'm going with an electric water pump.
The box the LS3 cam was shipped in arrived today, you'll notice I said box... IMG_20180604_134823135_TOP by Joseph Martin, on Flickr IMG_20180604_134836741 by Joseph Martin, on Flickr The cam is somewhere between Athens Al. and Denver Co.As soon as the seller saw the pics, ht issued a refund, I have another on the way...
Shift cables were ordered from California Push Pull, and the flywheel dropped off at the machine shop. I'm not happy with how the Cadillac ac compressor and alt fit, tried an alt from a Silverado, not much better, going to the yard that I got the engine from to get the comp and alt for the LS4
Somedays your the windshield and somedays your the bug... Joe
"it's smaller than I thought"... (that is a 6" scale sitting under the pump for reference...) IMG_20180605_182500144 by Joseph Martin, on Flickr Davies Craig 150 series water pump with digital control,(The system eliminates the thermostat by regulating both the pump and fan.) it will fit nicely under the right quarter panel, still waiting on the water pump eliminator kit... IMG_20180605_185624383_HDR by Joseph Martin, on Flickr IMG_20180605_185634592 by Joseph Martin, on Flickr The LS7 manifolds arrived today as well (LOL the seller was complaining how much he spent on shipping, they weigh almost as much as cast and I got them for only $100 shipped...) They are brand new crate engine take offs, no exhaust has been through them. IMG_20180605_195503246 by Joseph Martin, on Flickr IMG_20180605_195514883 by Joseph Martin, on Flickr It seems that I jumped to conclusions last night,after some more work with existing parts, I have a setup that works, now I can start making brackets. IMG_20180605_202528583 by Joseph Martin, on Flickr Trial fit #3, my accessory drive fits in the car with room to get my fingers around the alternator. the '88 4cly throttle cable is going to work very nice...
Joe
[This message has been edited by motoracer838 (edited 06-05-2018).]
Luck is a funny thing... IMG_20180606_170502209 by Joseph Martin, on Flickr While I'm waiting on a quote from Mark Williams on a custom intermediate shaft, I'm at You pull and pay looking for parts, When I stumble upon the Upper shaft lying on the ground waiting for my dumb azz to trip over it... pick it up and think that looks like it has the right ends and is longer than what I have, the best part it was only $7.00, if it didn't work it'd make a nice club... I think I need to go buy a lotto ticket... IMG_20180606_170512208 by Joseph Martin, on Flickr Best of all, it has what looks like a GM part # edit, It is a GM#, Amazon sells it for $357... Edit, I was able to find out that the shaft was used in. Pontiac G6, Saturn Arua and Chev Malibu, '08-'12 IMG_20180606_165518867 by Joseph Martin, on Flickr It's still shorter than I'd like, but for the price (I'm expecting Mark Williams to hit me at about $450, wow got my quote on the custom shaft, I was off by a mile, over $1,300... ) I can work with it. IMG_20180606_180959820 by Joseph Martin, on Flickr Got sick of looking at the stock valve covers, got a set of Holley finned covers, the hardware must come from china none of the hold down bolts will thread into the heads without doing damage (tried fitting 6x1.0 nuts to the bolts, no go...) , need to call Holley in the morning, also in this shot you can see the Fieroguru clutch line adapter. IMG_20180606_181013443 by Joseph Martin, on Flickr The Fieroguru starter bracket... built to fit with my spacer plate... IMG_20180606_165355346 by Joseph Martin, on Flickr Along with the Davies Craig water pump I got the water pump eliminator kit, I don't think it'll work without mods, (had a feeling I'd have to fabricate parts) It will work nicely on the Fauxrrari.. Another good day at Mad Scientist Labs... Joe
[This message has been edited by motoracer838 (edited 06-07-2018).]
You’re not wasting any time. Does that W/P work like an electric water heater?
Btw, that pic of mine is misleading. It’s a black connector. My motor is an ‘05 24x motor.
Been off work for a bit, trying to get as much done as I can, I start 12 straight days tomorrow... Not quite sure I understand your question about the water pump, It's a centrifugal pump much like a Procharger supercharger, the electric motor is built into the back, I had the dimensions of it when I ordered it and was still surprised at just how small it was...
Got a bit more done today, before things get stupid at work... IMG_20180607_181840378 by Joseph Martin, on Flickr Picked up an axle the right length for the Passenger side today. (I'm still a bit geeked out by my luck yesterday...) IMG_20180607_185404313 by Joseph Martin, on Flickr Got a new (long overdue...) toy, I spend just enough time messing with serp belts that this is well past time... (The alt is just rough mocked up to check fit in the car, the spacer under the link needs to be a bunch thinner...
Lesson learned, there have been some changes during the lifespan of the Gen 3/4 LS family... IMG_20180611_170725276 by Joseph Martin, on Flickr IMG_20180611_170656058 by Joseph Martin, on Flickr One of the bigger ones deals with the camshaft's and the cam signal. There are two styles of cams, the gen 3, 3 bolt flange with a 1x cam sensor in the back of the block. the three bolt cam is also used on some LS2/LS4 apps with a front mount 1x cam sensor. Then there is the rest of the gen 4 family with the one bolt flange and a 4x cam sensor... the problem is I bought an LS3 cam, there is no 1 bolt 1x cam sprocket, so I wound up getting a 3 bolt LS2 cam and have an LS3 cam to sell off...
The magic that makes it work, Install of the Fieroguru starter bracket.I didn't take any shots of how I cut the notch. I started by trimming as needed to fit the bracket in place Then taking my drill and setting the bit in the corners of the large cutout and drilled enough to make a pilot point, slid the bracket off, drilled the holes then using a cutoff wheel connected the "dots". Also had to cut out the spacer plate. IMG_20180612_151522280 by Joseph Martin, on Flickr IMG_20180612_151637461 by Joseph Martin, on Flickr IMG_20180612_151646159 by Joseph Martin, on Flickr IMG_20180612_161433614 by Joseph Martin, on Flickr Also got the engine tore down in prep for the new cam and DOD elimination kit, I'm very pleased with the condition of the engine, you can see where the rings stop in the cylinder but there's no ridge. also have the heads tore down in prep for upgrade springs and new valvestem seals since I'm in there...
Got a bit of time to work on the engine some this weekend. IMG_20180624_103523819 by Joseph Martin, on Flickr Cleaned up LS4 waiting on cam, dod delete kit and more... It was cleaner inside than out... IMG_20180624_100841540 by Joseph Martin, on Flickr Modifying the valley cover, started cutting the boss down enough to clear the manifold, (some threads were left, just happened to be the same pitch as 3/8"NPT.) then drilled deeper with a 9/16" drill. IMG_20180624_103419795 by Joseph Martin, on Flickr Then ran down a 3/8"NPT tap. and finished with a flush 3/8" plug.
Work has been weird but I'm still getting a "little on the side"... IMG_20180705_172437782 by Joseph Martin, on Flickr DOD delete, cam and spring upgrade, ITC billet water pump adapters, done, waiting on Summit for my missing circlips for my rocker arm trunion upgrade. What crack head came up with tty bolts??? I'm finding it hard to get to the first angle, trying to hold the engine and stand while getting to the first 90 degrees, I'll have to anchor the stand to the floor to get the next 70... IMG_20180626_163109859 by Joseph Martin, on Flickr If you'e ever wondered how much oil the lifters will take in, This was full to the top of the lifters the night before. IMG_20180703_161605375 by Joseph Martin, on Flickr Flywheel is back from the machine shop. IMG_20180703_162028261 by Joseph Martin, on Flickr Did I mention how nice this engine is for having over 110,000 miles???
That's all for now, Joe
[This message has been edited by motoracer838 (edited 07-05-2018).]
Work is still stupid, but starting to ease a bit...
Went to the Chevy dealer yesterday to pick up flywheel bolts, Maybe I'm just a tightwad but at $28 for 6 bolts, I feel like I've been mugged... At least they're not torque to yield...
On the subject of tty bolts, What crackhead engineer smoked up the concept, I've had to anchor the engine stand to the floor, the procedure for the head bolts calls, round 1, 22 ft lbs, round 2, using a torque angle gauge, 90 degrees, (at this point, if you put a torque wrench on it, it would be over 100 ft lbs, making it hard to hold on to the block, turn the breaker bar and look at the gauge... ) round 3, (yes there's more...) another 70 degrees... (my torque wenches don't go high enough to see what the reading is...) The big question is why it needs soo much torque to simply fasten the heads???
I dislike TTY bolts as well. Very frustrating to work with at times, feels like they will break on me. On my LS1 I switched to studs. Much better to use and better clamping.
I dislike TTY bolts as well. Very frustrating to work with at times, feels like they will break on me. On my LS1 I switched to studs. Much better to use and better clamping.
Yeah, if the heads ever come back off, it's getting studs...
After getting one bank of bolt's "tightened", I've decided to go with ARP head bolts, These are not tty and are for my needs a good choice, (cost a lot less than quality studs)...
A month later, I'm making some progress again... IMG_20180809_154001075 by Joseph Martin, on Flickr Laffy taffy vs real steel... IMG_20180809_151216630 by Joseph Martin, on Flickr The ARP bolts torqued up nice, I'm sold... IMG_20180809_172006924 by Joseph Martin, on Flickr Valvetrain is done, holly valve covers on. this is more progress than I've made in a month... I need to notch the oil pan to make room for the front exhaust pipe then I can install the flywheel and clutch, then work up the htob spacer.
Cheers Beers n Gearz, Joe
[This message has been edited by motoracer838 (edited 08-09-2018).]
I swore this car had to leave the shop under it's own power but somethings come up that changes the game... I went down to AZ to look at some property after I found this... https://www.realtor.com/rea...Z_85901_M28892-21448 This place blows away everything else I've looked at in the price range, looked at a lot of listings that weren't even close, as it is the shop is 1056 sq ft,(200 larger than current and with the planned bump out, 1427 sq ft) with room to grow and provide a place for a lift... I'm dreading the move... at this point I'm not expecting to be able to do much with the car until spring... other than get it back to a roller to move it...
Perhaps I missed something. What's the reason for the spacer plate between the engine and trans?
It makes room for the modified CHRF flywheel and clutch, The Nstar flywheel they sold was originally meant for a longitudinal Nstar application, as a result it is deeper than would have been for a transverse application.
Coming to grip with the idea that I had to spend more money going this way, was the hardest part... (eased a bit by knowing that the nstar was going to need at least another $1,600 when I crack it open.)
not likely... I do see the potential for a manifold and cam upgrade somewhere down the road, LS6 intake and tb along with an LS3 cam will "leave some on the table".
I think I need to go buy a lotto ticket...
