At least one person has asked me to document this swap, so if there is some interest I will continue. There are already threads to document a 5 speed 4.9 install and a hydraulic TOB Getrag install, so it may be a bit redundant, but we shall see.
The victim.
And the before pic.
I have a gantry frame (I call it the swingset from hell) that I will roll into place over the rear of the car, and lift it off of the cradle. The ramps are because the last time I dropped the cradle, I squished the air dam firmly against the floor. I'll also need room to swap the hydraulic lines on the bottom of the car.
The bits and pieces. 93 Cavalier Getrag tranny (aka NVG T-550) with integral slave/throwout bearing.
The tranny came from Jeff Ianitello(sp?) aka pontiacjeff, at Engineered Performance. Aside from the internal slave and the sturdier diff that comes with the later design tranny, it also contains an EP limited slip. Maybe a bit of overkill for a 4.9 (although there is that "tractor torque") but I figure if I do something else, down the road, I'll have it covered. An added bonus is that the VSS in this tranny should be directly compatable with the Caddy PCM. No need for the Dakota Digital adapter.
LSC flywheel Edit - There were some interference issues with the LSC flywheel and the Fiero Store Ram clutch. There is the largest possibility that you will NOT run into this problem. I just got "lucky". Details are here. https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/136262.html
As I was shooting this pics, I noticed this. Since you seldom see "Made in USA" any more, I thought it was worthy of mention.
Edit - I originally installed the Fiero Store / Ram HD clutch, but discovered that the clutch assembly is too tall, from the flywheel surface to the the tips of the release fingers. You will need to use a clutch designed for the Cavalier with the 3.1 and the T-550 (HTOB) tranny. (92-93?)
Rodney Dickman master.
Cables (including new RD select cable)
Pedals and TOB. (New TOB will be installed. This was a pullout.)
Axles.
Norm's battery box will be installed while I've got everything apart. A front battery box is the one thing I really should have done when I had the swap done. The battery is ~1/4 inch from the idler pulley, and the tray is seriously in the way whenever you try to do anything at all to the front of the engine.
I plan to see if there is a more suitable code mask to use for the Caddy PCM, to stop it from missing the 4T60E. (Yeah. I know I can ground two wires and I should be good. But the Allante had a much "dumber" tranny, so that mask may work better.) I'm also going to add the front O2 sensor. OTOH, there is nothing stopping me from swapping the entire PCM to a 7730. That's also an option.
So there you have it. Progress won't be rapid. I'll work on it whan I have time and when I feel like it. My goal is to be finished by the first week in June.
If there is anything specific that someone wants pics of, please let me know. Otherwise, I might get caught up in the moment and forget to document something. ------------------ Raydar 88 4.9 Formula IMSA Fastback Read Nealz Nuze!Praise the Lowered!
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 07-05-2020).]
In the air. The "swingset from hell" has no problem holding up the entire rear of the car, including the engine. The chain is looped through the steel channel at the front of the trunk compartment. Although the A frame was quite capable of holding up the car, the jackstands were a bit of insurance, since I was working underneath, disconnecting stuff. Catching a car in the face would tend to mess up my day.
All bundled up and ready to go.
The position of the furniture dolly under the cradle. The spacing on the dolly cushions is actually just a bit wide. I had to run a 2x4 across next to the front cushion, to catch the front cradle rail. I chose to remove the struts before lifting the cradle since the rear is all poly. There is very little flexiblilty when the car is lifted, and they tend to catch on everything and become a PITA.
Coming up...
Alley oop!
And free! I thought I was going to run out of hoist. At this point, it's less than a foot from all the way up.
The patient (or victim, depending upon your outlook.)
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 04-10-2011).]
Cool! I've been wondering about this trans with the 4.9. Glad to see someone doing it.
FYI: The VSS will connect directly to the 4.9 PCM but will require a signal converter still to run the speedo properly (thats a fiero speedo issue not VSS). I think that VSS sends a 24000ppm signal (what the 4.9's use from the factory). If you need a signal converter I'll send one to you. I have one left of the batch I made.
Cool! I've been wondering about this trans with the 4.9. Glad to see someone doing it.
FYI: The VSS will connect directly to the 4.9 PCM but will require a signal converter still to run the speedo properly (thats a fiero speedo issue not VSS). I think that VSS sends a 24000ppm signal (what the 4.9's use from the factory). If you need a signal converter I'll send one to you. I have one left of the batch I made.
Love the swingset from hell!! Go raydar!
Signal converter? This was a Fiero Factory swap. Isn't the signal converter already done when they swap in the 4.9? I was looking at fieroguru's thread. The ppm signals are the same, between the old tranny and the new. I was thinking that the VSS signals were the same. I appreciate the offer. If I need a converter, I'll give you a shout.
I didn't build the "swingset". Told a guy what I needed, and he whipped it up and brought it over a couple of weeks later. I forget how much it cost, but it was waaay worth it. Less then half of what I would have paid for one from Northern or Harbor Freight.
I'm not knocking your choice at all, but I'm curious as to why you are going from auto to manual? The gear ratio's of that manual and most others besides the Isuzu is not the best for the low-torque of the 4.9. I'm asking because I'm doing a 4.9/auto swap myself, and I went auto for those exact reasons. Of course manual is more fun but not if the gear ratio's are so high, you have to shift quickly.
[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 04-11-2011).]
I just got tired of when and how the automatic shifted. Reprogrammed or not, the Caddy tranny just doesn't do much of anything quickly. Especially downshift. I also missed my 5 speed coupe that I sold last summer. It was way more fun to drive than the 4.9, just because of the 5 speed.
Aside from that, people are still doing L67s with Getrags. That combination has the potential to blow through 1st gear much more rapidly than the 4.9.
Aside from that, people are still doing L67s with Getrags. That combination has the potential to blow through 1st gear much more rapidly than the 4.9.
Right, and I would do the same thing, as the L67 benefits from the high final drive. The 4.9 don't prefer the higher finals just because its a low-end torque monster, you know by 4500 RPM or so its over and you need to shift, the L67 goes to what, 6K? It not the amount of power I'm talking about, its were the power-band of each engine is located.
Again, I have nothing against you for doing this, I'm just trying to get the correct information along with experience. I don't want to drop my cradle again in the future if I don't like the auto (which I don't see why not, but that's why I'm posting this)
Well... It's probably not the ideal setup - the ideal setup for a 4.9 probably being just what you're installing - but it's what I'm doing. Other folks have done Getrags and Isuzus with 4.9s and seem to like them just fine. I fully accept the possibility that I may not like it when it's done. If that's the case, I'll tweek it until I like it, or I'll do a different engine. (Some folks here change engines like they change socks.) I'll be ready to do something else by next year, anyway. Whether it's to this car or something else. A newer 3.5 or 3.9 might be interesting. The variable cam timing is a bit of a pill, but if it works like the VCT in our Trailblazer, I have some ideas on how to make it work.
Oh... Ordered my release bearing today. 89.99 at Autozone, minus a $20 credit from my Rewards card. And earned $20 towards my Rewards card. All I need now are pressure plate bolts, a connector for the 2nd O2 sensor, and a connector for the backup light switch. After that, it's all labor.
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 04-11-2011).]
Signal converter? This was a Fiero Factory swap. Isn't the signal converter already done when they swap in the 4.9? I was looking at fieroguru's thread. The ppm signals are the same, between the old tranny and the new. I was thinking that the VSS signals were the same. I appreciate the offer. If I need a converter, I'll give you a shout.
.
The VSS signal for getrag you have should indeed be the same as the 4t60e you are taking out. Thats not the issue. The caddy PCM really doesn't care which signal it gets, as long as it gets one. The problem comes with the fiero speedo. Its setup to read only a 4000ppm signal. Really though if your speedo worked with the auto it shouldn't be any different with the getrag. I think you have it covered and if not you know where to find me.
In my opinion people make too big of a deal out of the manual gear ratios. Yes, first it short, but it was with the 2.8 also. First is for launches only. I never down shift to first. 2nd and 4th are the most fun. 3rd is often skipped with the 4.9. 5th is for cruising, ~2100rpm @65. I still drive my getrag 4.9 daily and it really isn't as bad as some seem to think. The advantage to a short first is insane launches, if you can manage to keep traction. On a nice warm day the front tires almost lift off the ground on a good launch. With a 5500 rpm redline and a 25.7 rear tire diameter I can get to about 32mph in first. Thats not too bad at all.
EDIT: Oh the O2 and reverse light connectors are the same (the pins are just reversed so they can't be plugged in wrong). FYI. I have some brand new ones at work with new pins. We use them on the helicopter fire tanks and spray systems. Carquest right up the street here also sells them.
[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 04-11-2011).]
Most people like to focus on first gear when dissing the manual transmissions, but there is a lot of fun to be had rowing through 2nd through 4th around town speeding up, slowing down, taking corners... lots of fun, especially with and endless supply of torque so you can really choose which gear you want to abuse. I absolutely loved the getrag (and isuzu for the first 2 years) in my SBC fiero... gave me 45K miles of smiles!
Never been a fan of the autos, and probably would not have sold my 4.3/4T60 if it was a 5 speed (and to think I converted that car from a 5 speed to the automatic... live and learn).
Another friend of mine just switched from the 4T65 to a getrag on his 3800SC for the same reason... bored of the auto and wanting to row through the gears.
Raydar, as far as your passenger side axle movement, under extreme compression it can almost touch the passenger frame rail... depending on elevation of your engine, the balancer bolt is normally 1 to 2 inches below the frame rail, so if you can accommodate the axle moving upwards about 2" above the balancer bolt, then you should be OK.
If you need to rework that mount, you could always just install and 88 lateral link like this:
Paul, I'll have to check the axle tomorrow. (Went out to eat tonight.) I was looking at the relationship between the tranny, the tripot, the axle and the bracket. I'm thinking that the bracket is near enough to the tripot that a 4 inch deflection at the wheel will produce much less than 2 inches of deflection in the area of the bracket. Probably a huge non-issue.
A couple of things that I ran across... I decided to add the front O2 sensor to my 4.9. Of course this is going to require additional wiring and another O2 sensor connector. All of the catalogs and parts stores show a single wire connector for the Caddy O2 sensor when it is, in fact, a 2 wire connector. The correct connector is a Delco PT605. 12125694. Rockauto lists it for a '97 3800 Camaro
Also, the Beretta/Corsica Getrag uses a different reverse light switch. Delco part # D2246A. 10094661. It works just like the supposedly hard-to-find and expensive Fiero reverse light switch. Costs ~$10. It does require a different connector. Delco PT1357. 15306302. It's ~$16. You will likely have to extend your wiring a bit, since the original switch has a 6" pigtail.
No prob. The general consensus is that it's probably worth about 20 HP. I saw one dynoed a few years ago, but I don't recall what it topped out at.
Since I don't have an electric tranny to shift any more, I might try my 7730 and see what it can be tweaked to. As far as the 7730 knows, it would be talking to a 305 Chevy.
Except for the VSS and the reverse light switch, the wiring harness has been completed and reinsulated. (Will wait until the tranny is bolted up, to terminate those.) Quite a few wires left over after all of the 4T60E circuitry was done away with. I just left the unused wires in the harness, folded them back and insulated them. Unpinned them from the PCM at the other end. Never know when they might become useful. Also added wiring for a front O2 sensor. A few weeks ago, I asked whodeanie to weld some bungs into both banks of my crossover pipe, so I'm good to go with those. Just have to add the front sensor to the chip, and disable all of the automatic transmission stuff. (I hope the Deville O2 sensor uses the same PCM pins as the Allante. That's where they're wired to.)
Also... I unboxed the 7730 that's been in my shop for the past few years, and discovered that it has the same three connectors that the Caddy PCM (2240) has. It would be sweet if all I have to do is re-pin a few wires to adapt the 7730.
Anyone have the pinouts for a 7730 as used in a 90-92 TPI Camaro? Preferably the 305/5.0. TPI.
Took the spare tire well out of the trunk, and scoped out a place for Norms battery box. (Might as well do that while everything else is disassembled.) Looks like a perfect fit except that the radiator coolant return line is in the way. If anyone has done this in an 88 and has any tips, they would be hugely appreciated.
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 04-24-2011).]
I would really like to find out about this as well. i'm thinking about using a hydraulic TOB in my formula as well. think it would work with a 4 speed?
Except for the VSS and the reverse light switch, the wiring harness has been completed and reinsulated. (Will wait until the tranny is bolted up, to terminate those.) Quite a few wires left over after all of the 4T60E circuitry was done away with. I just left the unused wires in the harness, folded them back and insulated them. Unpinned them from the PCM at the other end. Never know when they might become useful. Also added wiring for a front O2 sensor. A few weeks ago, I asked whodeanie to weld some bungs into both banks of my crossover pipe, so I'm good to go with those. Just have to add the front sensor to the chip, and disable all of the automatic transmission stuff. (I hope the Deville O2 sensor uses the same PCM pins as the Allante. That's where they're wired to.)
Also... I unboxed the 7730 that's been in my shop for the past few years, and discovered that it has the same three connectors that the Caddy PCM (2240) has. It would be sweet if all I have to do is re-pin a few wires to adapt the 7730.
Anyone have the pinouts for a 7730 as used in a 90-92 TPI Camaro? Preferably the 305/5.0. TPI.
Took the spare tire well out of the trunk, and scoped out a place for Norms battery box. (Might as well do that while everything else is disassembled.) Looks like a perfect fit except that the radiator coolant return line is in the way. If anyone has done this in an 88 and has any tips, they would be hugely appreciated.
Here you go. The pinouts are the same for the V8's and V6's, but here is the pinouts for the TPI 305/350 anyway.
[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 04-01-2012).]
I would really like to find out about this as well. i'm thinking about using a hydraulic TOB in my formula as well. think it would work with a 4 speed?
I don't think there are any 4 speeds that used a hydraulic TOB. It was only in the 91-92(?) and later Getrags, and maybe later Isuzus.
I really doubt that one can be retrofitted. The whole Getrag bellhousing casting was modified to accommodate the change. If I were you, I'd just buy a replacement slave and master from Rodney and be done with it.
Not without mods. You would need to drill a large hole in the case someplace for the lines, and somehow figure out how to mount the TOB inside the bellhousing area.
I don't think there are any 4 speeds that used a hydraulic TOB. It was only in the 91-92(?) and later Getrags, and maybe later Isuzus.
I really doubt that one can be retrofitted. The whole Getrag bellhousing casting was modified to accommodate the change. If I were you, I'd just buy a replacement slave and master from Rodney and be done with it.
Got ya... looks like I'm just gona have to put up with it or get a getrag put into it. another question. that clutch you picked up. is it just a clutch for a regular V6 to 5 speed mating or is it for a custom mating?
Originally posted by pontiackid86: Got ya... looks like I'm just gona have to put up with it or get a getrag put into it. another question. that clutch you picked up. is it just a clutch for a regular V6 to 5 speed mating or is it for a custom mating?
Stay 4-speed! I'm a 4-speed fan myself, love those ratios. And they seem to be stronger then Getrags.
It's the Fiero Store's heavy duty Ram clutch for a V6 5 speed. The one for the 5 speed (the one I bought) is 54007. They have a kit for the 4 speed too. Part # is 54005. (Please check it before you take my word for it.)
The throwout bearing will be different between the two of them. Maybe the pressure plate. Or maybe not.
It's the Fiero Store's heavy duty Ram clutch for a V6 5 speed. The one for the 5 speed (the one I bought) is 54007. They have a kit for the 4 speed too. Part # is 54005. (Please check it before you take my word for it.)
The throwout bearing will be different between the two of them. Maybe the pressure plate. Or maybe not.
Will do.. do you have any experience with ram clutches? if so how do they hold up. i hear there good for preformance application's without being painfully stiff.
Will do.. do you have any experience with ram clutches? if so how do they hold up. i hear there good for preformance application's without being painfully stiff.
PK, I had a HD RAM clutch with my 3.4/4-speed combo, and it worked great. My 3.4 was no weak engine either. LOTS of bite, was not stiff at all, perfectly normal. Very grippy like I said however, not much slip.
PK, I had a HD RAM clutch with my 3.4/4-speed combo, and it worked great. My 3.4 was no weak engine either. LOTS of bite, was not stiff at all, perfectly normal. Very grippy like I said however, not much slip.
I hear that makes a big difference on the 4.9. i ran accross one in a junk yard a few years ago, I was going to pull the setup but dident have enough time
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