Check out this thread. https://www.fiero.nl/forum/...070315-1-056829.html I'm still not sure if he cooked it up by himself, but he was selling all sorts of stuff with it attached. At one point (2007?) I think he was even sending images to you. (You were mentioned in another thread.) His name is Andrew, if that jogs your memory. You might have some old emails. (If you save stuff like I do.)
have you asked GM what they want($$) to allow you to use it? I've been surprised before when I requested quotes from places, it may not be as much as you would expect, and if someone has to have the emblem on their seats, they can pay the extra $$ to you and GM to make it happen. Me personally, not having an emblem on my seat isn't a big deal in any way.
------------------ "I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."
Oh no, everyone understands this, we just don’t like it. Copyrights are useful in protecting misuse or financial losses especially at a global scale. You can argue and cite things all day, but in the end GM is spending time and resources that they will never recover or even help protect their brand/image (cannot really protect an image that is abandoned). Mr. Mike is doing the right thing, I was pointing out removing the offer to add the logo from the website would solve most problems. Your “obtaining tips” has a high probability they just googled Mikes website after getting a tip, Anything more would be too much effort for them.
quote
Originally posted by theogre:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by da.slyboy: ]You and others have No Clue... In Very Short Version:
1. Copyright for most things is now nearly 100 Year thanks to Bono Copyright Act AKA Micky Mouse Protection Act. 2. Copyright, Trademark and Patent Owners must Protect them or often can lose the Rights in the US and other countries. GM et al or Firms contracted to do this work not only search the web themselves but get "tips" by others including License holders to Legally make/sell GM things like TFS. 3. DMCA and C&D "letters" from GM and others have completely shut down many sites including some PFF members selling key chains and other trinkets. FieroNews got one from Haynes to take down Haynes Fiero book and he took down GM FSM and other doc's too because only time to get letter from GM. Is just Luck MrMike hasn't got one way before this. 4. Once you get a DMCA or C&D notice, GM Legal Dept has already put a big target on the company and if try to bypass by just removing parts of web site but still making GM logo available on phone etc then GM will Sue You and run you out of business. So if anyone calls, E-mails, etc and ask to have any GM Ford or other logos on them... The answer is We No Longer Offer This. More now you posted this in public.
Even time you pay TFS, your paying GM License Fees too. That Fee often Starts @ Tens to Hundreds of Thousands of $ Per Year. MrMike likely Could get a License but would have to hike the prices of everything to pay GM. If used Ford etc then have to pay each of those too. That why others shut down because only made Fiero logo key chains mugs etc and doesn't make enough to pay GM license fees too.
You want a real problem? Here's one... Many people write whatever, Copyright them, Get ripped off by Big Media and find cost to sue them is way high and most lawyers want paid a lot of $ to even to start. Because Big Media has an Army of Lawyers to crush or settle a suit often paying pennies and everyone signing NDA to keep your mouth shut. Also Big Media wants all "Abandon" Copyright items in LoC to move to Pubic Domain [b]Before the time limit runs out to make easier to rip off stories and more authored by "poor people."
I use to belong to a lot of other hot rod forums. There was one that got a cease and desist for pictures of cars. Because the forum was making money from members Ford decided that they could not use pictures of cars because they were trade marked and the images (not the pictures) belonged to Ford. Not sure what was the end of it but I know they were removing pictures from the forum.
I like the idea of recycling patches, I wonder if they would consider that to be covered as well. Good luck with this I hope that it works out and you continue to make seat covers for the Fiero.
It is widely reported that it was drawn by PFF member F.I.E.R.O.
With that said, I'm not sure where he got it. It may have been discovered in an old filing cabinet at Pontiac, destined for a future release. Or not. But the design, and the creation of the design, was widely posted here. I'm quite sure that it has never been produced in an official capacity. I've never seen it attached to a car.
To my knowledge it was never from Pontiac. I have never seen this used in any way from GM.
Odds are someone drew it up in the public domain.
The early names were other ideas and then it went to Pegasus. That was killed late and went with Fiero.
I have the 2nd gen emblems and they are the same horse but in 3D form with raised design. Those date back to 1985 due to the date on the engineering drawing I have.
Hi hyperv6, You say "I have the 2nd gen emblems and they are the same horse but in 3D form with raised design. Those date back to 1985 due to the date on the engineering drawing I have." I don't think I have ever seen that. Can you post a picture? When you say 'same horse' : is that the horse on the GM Fiero emblem shown here or the embroidered horse head with winged mane also shown here?
Hello Fiero Community, MrMike here. I received a cease & desist order from General Motors concerning the inclusion of GM trademarked words, images, and emblems on my products. I agreed to cease & desist. But they said, quote: “To be clear, GM has no objection to your sale of non-infringing products”. THUS: I am inviting the Fiero Community to create a Fiero logo that is not General Motors trademarked. Thoughts? Thank you for your attention, MrMike.
I will not use the word Fiero. It I were making toasters or sneakers, sure. But putting the word Fiero - on a GM seat - in a GM car - that's just asking for trouble. Thank you, MrMike.
This really sucks. Allow me to add this: My sorry butt didn't turn the page proper. IIMG]https://images.fiero.nl/userimages/Rick%2520Morehouse/DSCF0792.JPG[/IMG] I never told Chrysler I'd use the fiero as the base car. After further research($$$), I scrapped the idea. Back in the day, Kit Car magazine ran an article of building the AMX/111 on the fiero chassis. A check of model car boxes reveals the disclaimer to have owners permissions of all rights. Don't mean to be a kill joy, just real life. A reminder of some of the hassles can be viewed on the reproduction of kgoodyear's tail light posts.Rick
[This message has been edited by Rick Morehouse (edited 11-08-2021).]
Hi hyperv6, You say "I have the 2nd gen emblems and they are the same horse but in 3D form with raised design. Those date back to 1985 due to the date on the engineering drawing I have." I don't think I have ever seen that. Can you post a picture? When you say 'same horse' : is that the horse on the GM Fiero emblem shown here or the embroidered horse head with winged mane also shown here?
Hi
Here is my case with all my emblems. The Chrome and color are the 1990 emblems. The black one on the left side is the 1990 GT emblem.
The GT emblem uses the new Pontiac letter style. The standard has a different style.
[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 11-08-2021).]
Thanks. This proved one of my points. The word "Fiero" isn't copyrightable in and of itself. There's 17 businesses that have it copyrighted in their name such as "Fiero Mexican Street Food".
GM doesn't own a common usage word. It'd be like me applying for a copyright on the word "Hello". Every time you use the word "hello" you have to pay me royalties? Silly. Fiero is a common Italian word. It's no more copyrightable than the word "Hello" is. GM didn't invent the word and thus has no claim to it.
GM may have a copyright on a logo they designed but there's no copyright on the word Fiero that I can see. Now some have claimed that GM has tried to claim they have ownership of the Fiero font. However, I'd like to see where they have filed for a copyright on that. If they haven't then the word "Fiero" in the "Fiero font" is usable by the public.
I really think the only leg GM has to stand on is the Fiero logo, which they obviously designed. But nothing else that I can see. They don't even own the word "Pontiac" FYI. It predates the company and is named for the Indians and the city. Thus "Pontiac" "Fiero" is not copyrighted either. If anything the Pontiac Indians could sue GM for using their name.
GM doesn't own a common usage word. It'd be like me applying for a copyright on the word "Hello". Every time you use the word "hello" you have to pay me royalties? Silly. Fiero is a common Italian word. It's no more copyrightable than the word "Hello" is. GM didn't invent the word and thus has no claim to it.
GM may have a copyright on a logo they designed but there's no copyright on the word Fiero that I can see. Now some have claimed that GM has tried to claim they have ownership of the Fiero font. However, I'd like to see where they have filed for a copyright on that. If they haven't then the word "Fiero" in the "Fiero font" is usable by the public.
I really think the only leg GM has to stand on is the Fiero logo, which they obviously designed. But nothing else that I can see. They don't even own the word "Pontiac" FYI. It predates the company and is named for the Indians and the city. Thus "Pontiac" "Fiero" is not copyrighted either. If anything the Pontiac Indians could sue GM for using their name.
Your wrong there. the words, in that specific font, used on a fiero or for the sale of emblems, tshirts etc is all covered by the copywrite. Actual words with the specific font, used for the purpose of selling items related to a fiero is all copywrite. Noe if you wanted to use the word "FIERO" on a pinto or dodge on its own without the logo design then your good to go!
[This message has been edited by jjd2296 (edited 11-09-2021).]
Have you actually investigated the cost of licensing the logos for use on seat covers? This would also allow you to keep using the Corvette and other GM logos on those seats, or making replacement Corvette seat covers (probably an even more lucrative business than the Fiero seat covers at this point)?
The recent GT tail light housing reproductions were made under license by GM. They don't just offer stock replacements, they also do customized lenses, so you potentially wouldn't be limited to just making stock replacement seat covers?
Thanks to all for the information. Russ of RW Upholstery may have a contact for TX Opie, I would like to ask him a question about that new logo (horse with winged mane). I very much want to offer TWO logos, as one (or none) is not a choice. Thank you, MrMike.
Thanks to all for the information. Russ of RW Upholstery may have a contact for TX Opie, I would like to ask him a question about that new logo (horse with winged mane). I very much want to offer TWO logos, as one (or none) is not a choice. Thank you, MrMike.
I have Jim McHale's (TXOpie) contact info I will PM it to you Mr Mike
Thanks to all for the information. Russ of RW Upholstery may have a contact for TX Opie, I would like to ask him a question about that new logo (horse with winged mane). I very much want to offer TWO logos, as one (or none) is not a choice. Thank you, MrMike.
I sent both his phone and email to both you (via PM) and Russ
I get the C&D letter in the case where GM is still selling factory produced seats or seat covers and Mr Mike or others would be taking sales away from GM. but in this case GM has no similar product..... so what's the big deal if Mike sells a few seat covers? Also could understand if the product in question some how reflected badly on GM but again, that doesn't apply here.
To add to what Raydar stated, I've tried reaching out to F-I-E-R-O to ask him about his ownership of that logo and getting permission to use it, but never heard back. I don't know if he still checks PMs or is even on the forum (I haven't tried to search to find his most recent post).
Personally, I think that logo is awesome, and would love to see it offered by you.
(also, thank you again for taking the time to educate me on seat construction differences between the Corvette and Fiero some time back. I'm always trying to figure out ways to improve things.)
EDIT: I see that someone mentioned that TXOPIE bought the rights to it. He was active until recently. He was in the process of liquidating all of his Fiero stuff (cars and parts), due to his wife having a serious medical condition and he didn't have time for his hobby anymore. BluDrm was sold to someone nearby, who found some of the new pegasus badges in the car and sold them to me.
I haven't tried reaching out to him recently. I hope he is the owner and is willing/able to sell/give you the design rights!
[This message has been edited by Trinten (edited 11-10-2021).]
Your wrong there. the words, in that specific font, used on a fiero or for the sale of emblems, tshirts etc is all covered by the copywrite. Actual words with the specific font, used for the purpose of selling items related to a fiero is all copywrite. Noe if you wanted to use the word "FIERO" on a pinto or dodge on its own without the logo design then your good to go!
Do you know of anyone actually getting a C&D from GM for using the word "Fiero" WITHOUT the logo? I've been following this forum for 20 years and haven't. I know that Rodney got one for the spare tire covers and a few other products, which had the name AND logo (not just the name).
Also just because someone makes a claim at a big corporation doesn't make it correct. For example, just his week, I requested a small balance gift card cash out under CA law and was told by a big name Fortune 500 corporate legal department that they need a W-9 from me to mail me a check for the gift card balance. It was so asinine I laughed out loud. (They didn't understand what a W9 is for or what income is.)
The people sending out these letters probably are low man/intern on the totum pole charged with browsing the web looking for potential violations. They probably spend literally 15 min looking at the website and sending out a form letter. If you think this is one of the $300 / hour lawyers spending three hours researching everything before crafting a custom letter geared to that specific vendor and copyright violation you're crazy.
Using just the name is harder for the owner of the copyright to prove because they have to have evidence That it is being used for the sole purpose of adding it to specific fiero parts to be used on the car. For example printing “Fiero 2M6” in the same font as factory would be a copyright violation. Using just the word “Fiero” in the correct font but not being able to prove that it’s intended application was for a fiero would be hard for the owner of the copyright.
[This message has been edited by jjd2296 (edited 11-13-2021).]
1. I have not heard back from TX Opie. 2. The word Fiero on a toaster is one thing, on a Fiero seat in a Fiero is asking for trouble. 3. I have no intention of poking a hornet nest with a stick, busy making upholstery. Thank you, MrMike.
1. I have not heard back from TX Opie. 2. The word Fiero on a toaster is one thing, on a Fiero seat in a Fiero is asking for trouble. 3. I have no intention of poking a hornet nest with a stick, busy making upholstery. Thank you, MrMike.
Might pull this photo down or Ferrari will be calling next with a C+D.
I believe this subject is in gray zone because Mr Mike is selling his talent in re-creating those seats, not emblems.
Darn, I was looking forward to getting my seats done next year in real leather. Yes, in real leather. Guess I will have Mr Mike do the seats & get a local sewing company to do the emblems. Is GM gonna try & stop all sewing companies in America, huh?
GM cannot stop us Fiero enthusiasts from wanting to dress up our Fieros. Period.
After talking with Mr. Mike about my future seat project, I'm disappointed to find out that he doesn't do leather seats anymore, only vinyl & leatherette (fake) which I'm NOT too crazy about. In my opinion, real leather is the best way to dress up our Fieros like they do with exotic Ferraris & Lambos.
It's sad that Mr. Mike won't do it for our Fieros.
So, I guess I will have to go somewhere else. Does anyone know of anyone else that does leather? Thank you.
[This message has been edited by Fiero Vice (edited 11-18-2021).]
Not all of the exotics you think are using leather are using it. Leather is harder to work with and get the nice tight fit you expect. Simulated leather products have the qualities people think real leather has but in reality doesn't.
quote
Originally posted by Fiero Vice:
So, I guess I will have to go somewhere else. Does anyone know of anyone else that does leather? Thank you.
Good luck finding someone who can do it better, it's unlikely to be cheaper or look as good, especially if you insist on leather. But I'm sure there's a plethora of local upholstery people who would like to work for you.
[This message has been edited by jmbishop (edited 11-18-2021).]
It seem that more and more large companies are concerned about smaller companies using their logos, trade marks or similar. They fail to look at the long term embrace of their product that future generations are attracted too. Mr. Mikes is promoting their product in a good light. I under stand where they are come from, I get it but go after those companies that abuse logos and trade marks. Mr. Mikes isn't selling patches, he's selling seat covers that in a Fiero.
Here is the problem. While Mr Mike makes a great product that has a positive impact Mr Chan makes his covers very cheaply and they look like crap. This has a negative impact.
Or someone takes your companies logo and uses it in a **** or racist or non pc way and the web jumps all over.
This is not mostly about money vs protecting names and images that can do a lot of damage anymore.
We had companies trying to use our name and images in ways we did not approve. We even shut downs stores that were trying to be us. How they thought we would never find out is amazing.
The sad part is the legal cost of protecting names and images is not cheap. Much of the cost to pay the lawyers.
After talking with Mr. Mike about my future seat project, I'm disappointed to find out that he doesn't do leather seats anymore, only vinyl & leatherette (fake) which I'm NOT too crazy about. ...
Mike did cloth and leatherette seats for our old Miata. They were nothing short of superb. I'm not sure about Fiero stuff, however. Maybe he will jump in.
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 11-23-2021).]
This really sucks. Allow me to add this: My sorry butt didn't turn the page proper. IIMG]https://images.fiero.nl/userimages/Rick%2520Morehouse/DSCF0792.JPG[/IMG] I never told Chrysler I'd use the fiero as the base car. After further research($$$), I scrapped the idea. Back in the day, Kit Car magazine ran an article of building the AMX/111 on the fiero chassis. A check of model car boxes reveals the disclaimer to have owners permissions of all rights. Don't mean to be a kill joy, just real life. A reminder of some of the hassles can be viewed on the reproduction of kgoodyear's tail light posts.Rick
