As many of you know, I've owned the only known set of un-used Fiero prototype emblems for many years now.



The story about where they came from and how I ended up with them is just as crazy as owning them. Over the years that I have owned them, I've heard a few people call into question their validity. I'm happy to report that at the 40th Anniversary Event I was fortunate to meet John Carafo (lin the sport jacket).



John was the design engineer that literally drew the emblems. He wasn't aware that I was bringing them, and in a weirder twist of fate he brought along his own decal which was a Design Studio engineering sample that matched the emblem font exactly.



John immediately recognized the emblems and was happy to (literally) "sign off" on them as being valid. Also, he gifted me the decal that he brought.



2 days later, John Schinella, the lead of the Design Studio for Pontiac (and father to the 1st gen Camaro, the eagle on the Trans Am hood, and many others) also signed the emblems, giving even more credence. I'll get that picture up if anyone is interested in it, but I hope for now that ends any speculation.

[This message has been edited by Boomtastic (edited 07-21-2023).]

DAMN, I saw the title and I was hoping you were selling them

[This message has been edited by IMSA GT (edited 07-21-2023).]

quote Originally posted by IMSA GT: DAMN, I saw the title and I was hoping you were selling them

LOL Nope, sorry!

I was hoping to get to meet John...

quote Originally posted by R Runner: I was hoping to get to meet John...

Super nice guy! His wife, who took the picture of us, interrupted his conversation with John Callies just so I could thank him. And he was thrilled too.

Sorry not the only unused emblems.

There was about 120 emblems made by Dott industries for Pontiac for the 1990 prototypes.

About 24 are known left.

I did the research wit Dott and with GM to show these were authentic and planned for production.

The actual Designer was Cafaros co worker Jon Albert who was in charge of the ID package. Jon sent me the Engineering Drawing from GM and I still have the print.

Now I am not going to say that the ones here are fakes but I did send photos to Jon and he never saw them before.

I will leave it up to you on them. But I do have the documentation to back up my emblems and even photos of them on 1990 prototypes and clay mock ups.

So to say the these here are the only ones is a very false statement.

Note Cafaro and Albert both did the C5 Corvette. One inside the other the interior.

All I can say is I do have the documents and the photos to back up my info. It was published in High Performance Pontiac and Smoke Signals.

So you can claim what you want but they are not the only ones.

quote Originally posted by hyperv6: Sorry not the only unused emblems. There was about 120 emblems made by Dott industries for Pontiac for the 1990 prototypes. About 24 are known left. I did the research wit Dott and with GM to show these were authentic and planned for production. The actual Designer was Cafaros co worker Jon Albert who was in charge of the ID package. Jon sent me the Engineering Drawing from GM and I still have the print. Now I am not going to say that the ones here are fakes but I did send photos to Jon and he never saw them before. I will leave it up to you on them. But I do have the documentation to back up my emblems and even photos of them on 1990 prototypes and clay mock ups. So to say the these here are the only ones is a very false statement. Note Cafaro and Albert both did the C5 Corvette. One inside the other the interior. All I can say is I do have the documents and the photos to back up my info. It was published in High Performance Pontiac and Smoke Signals. So you can claim what you want but they are not the only ones.

Someone's panties are in a twist and I'm not entirely sure why you're (still) mad. Honestly though, I don't really care. My interest is in documenting my emblems, not yours or any of the others you claim are out there. Congrats on whatever you may have. My emblems were validated by Cafaro himself, and again by Schinella - both in person, as they held them, in Pontiac MI. I think they are the true authority on these.

quote Originally posted by Boomtastic: Someone's panties are in a twist and I'm not entirely sure why you're (still) mad. Honestly though, I don't really care. My interest is in documenting my emblems, not yours or any of the others you claim are out there. Congrats on whatever you may have. My emblems were validated by Cafaro himself, and again by Schinella - both in person, as they held them, in Pontiac MI. I think they are the true authority on these.

I’m not mad Just telling the truth here. You can claim what yours are what ever you like. But it Is a flat out lie that they are the only unused prototype emblems.

I took the time a number of years ago to document the other emblems and have the e mails and the actual engineering drawing from GM to back it all up. The POCI and leading Pontiac historian Don Keefe also have acknowledged the documents as authentic and accurate information.

Fred B one of the leading collectors of all prototype Fiero parts also an owner of several of these has confirmed them with Schinella. John has one of the GT emblems himself.

So you are fine claiming they are prototype emblems as they may be and I just never could get anyone at GM that recalled them. But they are not the only ones nor are they the ones they had planned to use on the 1990 car.

When I documented mine I share photos of yours trying to help find info for you since I was in touch with the people that had done the ID package. Even in the Fiero. Ok Gary did Jon is shown as the designer of the Pegasus horse.

All I am doing is giving the rest of the info you are not sharing just to keep the story straight.

So t share the story about yours as you like but be honest and not claim they are the only game in town.

I hope what you have is legit and not some auto-zone Chinese deal. That would just add more to the history of the car.

What would be nice is to get the entire story on them and when or where they had planned to use them. If Jon Albert could get me an engineering drawing I would think either John C or John S could get you the similar documentation. It would only add value over just an autograph.

Did they give you any printed story? These thing add value. If you are connected getting them to tell the full story would help you.

quote Originally posted by hyperv6: I’m not mad Just telling the truth here.

Actually you've been stewing on this since day one Scott.

quote You can claim what yours are what ever you like. But it Is a flat out lie that they are the only unused prototype emblems.

So post all these others. Let's see them.

quote I took the time a number of years ago to document the other emblems and have the e mails and the actual engineering drawing from GM to back it all up. The POCI and leading Pontiac historian Don Keefe also have acknowledged the documents as authentic and accurate information.

I would trust the design engineers. They inspected them, approved them and signed off on them. They wouldn't have said "Yes, those are the real deal" and put their names on them if they weren't. Not sure what's so hard to understand here other than you don't want to believe it.

quote Fred B one of the leading collectors of all prototype Fiero parts also an owner of several of these has confirmed them with Schinella. John has one of the GT emblems himself.

I'm good friends with Fred B. He can also validate all of this as he was there, in the greenroom at the Crofoot.

quote So you are fine claiming they are prototype emblems as they may be and I just never could get anyone at GM that recalled them.

I confirmed them. You couldn't. I went right to the guys that would obviously know. Try harder next time? What do you want me to say? Cafaro even said he "wanted them back" ... guess I'll have to get that in writing too, or get an affidavit from witnesses that were there at the time to prove everything to some unknown on the internet.

quote But they are not the only ones nor are they the ones they had planned to use on the 1990 car.

I'm sure there were lots of different emblem styles, fonts, etc. during the design of the 2nd gen Fiero that were reviewed. Some never made it past the drawing stages. Some obviously made it to a physical state. I have a set of those physical emblems. You're looking at them. And they're real. They weren't made for the 1993 Fiero, or any other year than the 1989/90 model. Schinella said that my emblems would have been on the base model, and that the GT would have had a separate suffix of "GT" or "GTP".

quote When I documented mine I share photos of yours trying to help find info for you since I was in touch with the people that had done the ID package.

Yeah, somehow I highly doubt that you were trying to help me. I'd go as far as to say that you were trying to discredit or eliminate mine, as you're still doing now.

quote Even in the Fiero. Ok Gary did Jon is shown as the designer of the Pegasus horse. All I am doing is giving the rest of the info you are not sharing just to keep the story straight. So t share the story about yours as you like but be honest and not claim they are the only game in town.

Until others are presented, they are still the only ones. And I'm not talking nose badges either ...

quote I hope what you have is legit and not some auto-zone Chinese deal.

Yeah, you got me. Cheap emblems made in China fooled the design engineers 100%. It even fooled the lead of the design studio. You really are something else. Instead of being happy that more history was documented you immediately call fraud. That post alone shows your true character.

quote That would just add more to the history of the car.

It's been confirmed. Did you want Cafaro and Schinella to sign in blood?

quote What would be nice is to get the entire story on them and when or where they had planned to use them. If Jon Albert could get me an engineering drawing I would think either John C or John S could get you the similar documentation. It would only add value over just an autograph.

You keep working on that, for your own reasons.

quote Did they give you any printed story? These thing add value. If you are connected getting them to tell the full story would help you.

Neither knew that I was bringing the emblems for their inspection. They didn't have a prepared statement ready to go when they signed them. I'm sure I can reach out to either or both of them and get a full blown "printed story" but you'd still be mad. And for what? They TOLD ME from their lips. I guess I should I have asked Gary Witzenburg too? He was 3 feet away from me ...

You can be as mad as you want, still, and forever as far as I care. The emblems are genuine and validated. Accept it or don't - I don't care what you think. I'm done with you and your years of passive aggressive bullshit.

Look tell the story of your emblems. That is fine as it is your story to tell.

But do not say they are the only ones as that is a proven documented lie. That is the only point I contest as it already long ago was proven otherwise.

You are the one upset as you payed a lot of money for something you had no proof of for years. I would be happy if yours do have true history and would like to congratulate you on this.

But beware I will correct the story when ever need to the fact they are not the only ones.

I still would recommend trying to get some actual GM documentation to remove any doubt.

It took me near 5 years but it was worth the effort.

Even a detailed letter from John telling the story of how, when and where they were designed and why they were never used.

In the case of the others they were set for production. They were even molded to be used in the front bumper and have the corresponding bolt holes to fit the remaining car. I halos can show them in use on the prototype cars.

These emblems pre date printing and are made and molded in a three shot process to make in in different colors and in a raised script. I have the Dott engineers letter outlining this and their side of GM’s intent.

I can show who was in charge of them . Who made them for GM, when they were designed , and what they were intended for on the documents. The GM info confirms what Dott stated.

I would see if John with his connections could provide you with the similar document. It will only add value for you . Even the Box that Jon Albert Fed Ex my engineering drawing in is saved with the Tech sender address on it.

And no I was never upset with your emblems. I tried to help you get legitimate info. I offered the photos to GM designers with no commentary other than your claim. You got mad when I just told you that no one at GM ever saw them and if I recall I think I posted the document stating so.

Well congratulations on what info you have and I hope you can get more details. It is the smart move now you have a connection. It is not a blood oath but it clearly would a benefit to better document the item and a benefit for the Fiero hobby to remove any doubt. Telling a story is one thing but backing it with GM documents is a whole different story. There should still be something out there if they had them on mine.

It is just good advice.

As for me I am meeting Tim Dye from the Pontiac Museum and plan to show him the original drawing and give him a copy of the artifact. Maybe you could do the same if you can get more info.

Anyways for the sake of the Fiero be honest as the one point is clearly not true.

[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 07-23-2023).]

If anyone wants to reproduce them...

https://www.printables.com/...ontiac-fiero-emblems

I made cad files of these.

Pretty awesome Eric! I wish I could have made it to those events. But with my son it was rather hard lol.


-Amir

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88 Formula - 3800SC/4t65eHD
88 Coupe - 3800SC/4t65eHD
87GT - Great Blue Chop Top

quote Originally posted by mmeyer86gt/gtp: If anyone wants to reproduce them... https://www.printables.com/...ontiac-fiero-emblems I made cad files of these.

"well isn't THAT special?"

Thanks cool, man - thanks! xoxo

[This message has been edited by TheDigitalAlchemist (edited 07-26-2023).]