Just a quick update... figured this post was as good as any to continue the "random" posts regarding the overall progress. We got the engine fully in yesterday:
She's about 8 videos behind, but I think she's going to end up condensing this into 4 videos since she's so far behind. The next one will be finishing up the top end of the engine, then the interview with cliff and cars of the Netherlands, then building out the engine and transmission on the stand, and then prepping the engine bay and installing it in the car. Not sure yet what she'll do.
Just some quick points... we removed the rear quarter, repaired all the rust we saw. There were a couple of small holes in the rear-most part of the upper frame-rails, but I was unable to get replacement metal, so we ground it down to bare metal, and Por-15'ed the entire thing. She replaced, restored, and renovated basically everything. Re-wrapped all the wiring harnesses, replaced the tree clips, you name it. She also installed new insulation matting on the rear firewall, and a bunch of other stuff.
When we removed the quarter "shell," one of the bolts broke free in the fiberglass, so I had to use a sawzall to cut it. It was the driver's side screw. There was too much gunk on the threads, and we were unable to get it to spin before it spun free inside the fiberglass. She pressure washed the entire thing, and I was able to tack-weld the cut side of the bolt (after cleaning the threads, etc.) back to the top part of it on the fiberglass roof panel. I then used a grinder to smooth out most of it so it would fit in the hole when re-installed, and I used a bunch of JB Weld to re-assert the bolt so it didn't spin freely within the fiberglass. She let me do all of this, but was nervous... I'm actually kind of impressed I was able to do it, haha.
Everything went back awesome. She Por-15'ed the entire roof and B-pillars when it was off, and installed all new foam insulation (outdoor / water proof) before we installed it. She used RTV sealant on the mating surfaces to prevent any leaks as well. It came out really well.
Engine went in quite easily... she did a good job with this, and I monitored to make sure she didn't get under the car despite the desire to do so several times because it would be "easier." The passenger side rear cage nut broke free... unfortunately. But I have insanely long fingers, and I was able to get it out through one of the existing slots in the side. I don't know if there's supposed to be a "cage" in there, but there was no cage, just a diamond shaped plate with a threaded bung attached to it that was loose in there. I had to help her with this side, but I slid it back while trying to thread in the bolt, and once I got it threaded, I used a long screw driver to hold it in place while I used the impact gun. Everything else went in very smoothly... so she's really excited.
Next, we're going to rebuild the entire rear suspension (have all the parts ready to go, everything is painted... it's just assembling Legos at this point). And that'll be the video that comes after that.
EDIT: Nothing in the picture above is hooked up. The engine is literally installed in the car, and the only thing hooked up are the four cradle bolts, and a screw driver going through the frame to dog-bone hole. She'll do that over the next few days... but she accidentally threaded the water pump neck with an M9/1.25 instead of an M8/1.25 tap... so we had to special order two M9 bolts which won't come until early October... lol.
[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 09-16-2024).]
Cool, looking good! I had long fingers as well one time for exactly the same frame nut problem. Yes there should be a cage, but they rust away. Looking forward to the vids....😉🙂
------------------ "Turbo Slug" - '87 Fiero GT. 3800 turbo. - The fastest Fiero in France! @turboslugfiero https://youtu.be/hUzOAeyWLfM
Cool, looking good! I had long fingers as well one time for exactly the same frame nut problem. Yes there should be a cage, but they rust away. Looking forward to the vids....😉🙂
Thanks TurboSlug... my daughter has been pretty happy with everything thus far... she knows that the nastiest / messiest part of the job is over. Everything else from here on out is basically like putting together Legos.
That engine bay was so incredibly nasty... it was impossible to walk away from it without being covered in soot or dirt from something. The engine likely has over 200k on it, from the original owner BEFORE the owner I bought it from. So, it's a testament to how well it was maintained, and how well it was built. There's still a few messy jobs... re-doing the whole front end... and cleaning up the interior... but the hardest part is done.
Over the next couple of weeks, she'll have to start attaching everything back to the engine.
This is a really a great family restoration project but I have one question. You are spending all kinds of money on this restoration but would not a Duke short block have been a better investment over a 200K mile engine? As for those inside frame nuts breaking loose;. on all the work that we have done its was always remove the rear fascia to get at those cradle nuts. Only adds about 20 minutes to the job. You got lucky on this one. In any event keep up the good work.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
This is a really a great family restoration project but I have one question. You are spending all kinds of money on this restoration but would not a Duke short block have been a better investment over a 200K mile engine? As for those inside frame nuts breaking loose;. on all the work that we have done its was always remove the rear fascia to get at those cradle nuts. Only adds about 20 minutes to the job. You got lucky on this one. In any event keep up the good work.
Honestly, the engine rebuild was the cheapest part of the entire restoration. I have to look at the numbers above... but I think the total cost for the engine machine work, plus all the parts (bearings, lifters, pistons, etc.) came in around ~$1,000 bucks.
But as I'd mentioned, the most important part of this was to give my daughter the knowledge and education of learning how an engine works. We can always buy a rebuilt engine... but it takes a whole other skill to build that engine yourself. And that's what she did...
EDIT: On the cradle nut comment. Yeah, my daughter is very far behind on most of the videos... she hasn't even been responding to comments much (just a lot going on), but even before we removed the cradle... she removed the rear fascia first. We needed to do it because I had her remove the engine a different way. I didn't like the idea of using a jack and wood blocks. We used an engine lift to actually lift the entire car off the engine frame, so I had her use a heavy duty strap around the rear bumper to lift the car. But this is the video where she's removing the rear fascia and some other stuff to prepare for the engine removal:
[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 09-20-2024).]
I love how much crap you're getting for spending as much as you are because it all seems crazy reasonable to me. I don't think anybody starts a project like this thinking it will be economical. For me the journey and learning (much like what you are doing for your daughter except my "dad" is youtube and you all) are the real goal, and there's a fantastic completeness to the way you are doing things.
I'm also super biased because of the ground work you are doing for other folks engaging in similar projects; this has been a huge help to me.
I love how much crap you're getting for spending as much as you are because it all seems crazy reasonable to me. I don't think anybody starts a project like this thinking it will be economical. For me the journey and learning (much like what you are doing for your daughter except my "dad" is youtube and you all) are the real goal, and there's a fantastic completeness to the way you are doing things.
I'm also super biased because of the ground work you are doing for other folks engaging in similar projects; this has been a huge help to me.
Thanks, I appreciate it. When she was like 13, I told her... I'll buy you a car, but you have to restore it. This was a thought I had in my head even before she was born. When I was a kid, I had to learn how to work on a car because I couldn't afford to pay people to fix it. And my dad was always handy, so it wasn't a hard stretch going from building stuff to fixing cars. So I'd had the idea long before we had kids, that this was something I was going to do. I was in a position where I could afford it a bit more, and she was starting to come of age... she'd already done some programming and circuit work... and she'd already learned how to hack some online game through the browser's debug menu... when she was supposed to be doing Rosetta Stone (it's a crazy video... she was like 9, and I knew then she would be capable of more than I could do at her age)... so I figured the time was right.
She doesn't yet know what she wants to do for a living when she grows up, I said it doesn't really matter, as long as when you do decide to start looking at schools, you get a degree that can apply broadly. She thinks she may want to get into TV / Video Production, but also likes working on cars, also likes computer programming, and a bunch of other stuff. I said... your career will probably change a bunch of times before you retire... so just do what interests you the most and see how it works out.
But it's been fun also because I'm learning a lot myself... and she's very interested in doing instructional type videos to help others... she's very much the ENFJ type of personality. So... we'll see where it takes her.
Cool. So I need you to buy her spherical bearings for her front suspension so I can follow the Gen Z garage video when mine get here
I saw those in the Mall section. They look awesome, the only thing I'd say is that they're probably best for racing. In my opinion, there's going to be a lot of feedback from the road and vibration from the engine. It's not something you'd want in a road car, but definitely helpful in something that you're driving on the track.
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: I saw those in the Mall section. They look awesome, the only thing I'd say is that they're probably best for racing. In my opinion, there's going to be a lot of feedback from the road and vibration from the engine. It's not something you'd want in a road car, but definitely helpful in something that you're driving on the track.
I'm hoping Will's prediction that NVH won't be too much of a problem will hold true. There are quite a few people who have bought them, but I'm not seeing a post-install write up unfortunately.
I'm hoping Will's prediction that NVH won't be too much of a problem will hold true. There are quite a few people who have bought them, but I'm not seeing a post-install write up unfortunately.
Yeah, I definitely don't to trash the product because what I saw was amazing...
But, I did install poly on one of my cars... and the vibration was immediately noticeable. It's one of the reasons that, for my daughter's car, we went with OEM high quality rubber bushings.
Yeah, I definitely don't to trash the product because what I saw was amazing...
But, I did install poly on one of my cars... and the vibration was immediately noticeable. It's one of the reasons that, for my daughter's car, we went with OEM high quality rubber bushings.
I did the rod ends for my rear lateral linkages (from FieroGuru's writeup) and the solid ends for the rear sway bar, but outside of that (and the front spherical bearings) I'm going rubber bushings throughout -another thing Guru pointed me in the right direction for. It's nice to hear you say that, too; I respect your take on things.
Daughter and I did some more work today on the car.
She buttoned up some more things in the engine compartment, hooked up the throttle linkage, the gear shift linkage, some more vacuum stuff, the clutch slave line, and put all the wiring harnesses back where they belong. The harness we already had installed on the engine, we fed back into the firewall, and the one that was inside the car that feeds out to the firewall, we put that one back, and routed it along behind the battery tray and with new clips, into the firewall on the side, and she hooked back up the C500 connector. We blew apart the suspension again so we can install the driveshaft seals in the back of the hub (oops), but we kept the McPhearson struts properly installed into the hats and into the shock towers. She got installed all of the heater hoses in the engine compartment, and one of the main cooling lines. She also put back the inner sail panels, the fuel filler door and lid, etc., and installed the restored 84 SE glass sail panels. Lots of other things came back together, and we turned the key for the first time... there's no fuel in the tank, and we're still missing a couple of things (fuel pump harness connector, etc.), and haven't reinstalled the ECM yet... but she turned the key and cranked the engine a few times. With the new starter, it sounded awesome. Engine cranked over fine... no horrible crunching noises or anything... cranked perfectly!
There was a Metallica - Ride the Lightning cassette in the tape player that came with the car, so we listened to that for both sides while we worked on the car.
Just a couple of quick pictures...
We ran into a couple of issues:
1 - The rod in the clutch slave cyl only goes out about half an inch to 3/4ths of an inch. Not sure if that's normal, but the clutch pedal goes in SUPER easy. I've never driven a 5-Speed Fiero, so I don't know if the clutch should feel like that. Car doesn't run, so no easy way to test yet.
2 - The power distribution block is a mess. We bought a new one, but the dual power blade that comes off the two red fusable link wires, well... it broke off. I'm guessing we'll have to find a new one to re-attach, or we'll have to attach two new different connectors on it. Anyone know if they sell that double-ring connector anywhere? Also... what do I do if I have wires that refuse to talk any solder? Is there any way to get the solder to stick? It just wicks right... like oil and water.
3 - The fan came on full blast when we turned the car to the on-position. Not sure if that's something we did... either a lack of having the ECM connected, or if perhaps the previous owner intentionally grounded out the fan so it stays on all the time... but the fan stayed on all the time (so I disconnected it at the fan while we listened to the tape).
4 - The previous owner installed a light-up switch under the dash that turns on the windshield wiper fluid pump... I'm guessing the stalk broke, and this was the fix. So we'll correct that too.
5 - The shifter assembly is hard to get into gear. I don't remember it being like this AT ALL. We had the transmission rebuilt, but now I'm thinking the guy may have done a shitty job, and I screwed myself... literally the one thing we didn't do ourselves. I'm HOPING that the reason we're having issues is because the shifter linkage isn't properly adjusted. They used the case from another transmission, and there's maybe a 1/4 to 1/2" distance between where the bracket would have sat on the original case, and where it sits now.
The rod in the clutch slave cyl only goes out about half an inch to 3/4ths of an inch. Not sure if that's normal, but the clutch pedal goes in SUPER easy. I've never driven a 5-Speed Fiero, so I don't know if the clutch should feel like that. Car doesn't run, so no easy way to test yet.
My experience with the Isuzu is that 1-1/8" slave travel is essential for the clutch to disengage properly. I suspect you have air in the hydraulics.
My experience with the Isuzu is that 1-1/8" slave travel is essential for the clutch to disengage properly. I suspect you have air in the hydraulics.
Ok, thanks Patrick... that makes sense. I'll take a look again this weekend.
By the way, we worked so long on the car yesterday, that I dreamed about car *stuff* all night. There was a dream at one point where some people were walking around, and this girl had a wrist full of bracelets, all of which were ABS rings that had been pulled off of axles.
There was another part of the dream where a military vet who'd lost his hand, had put some car part on the nub of his forearm where his hand was... I can barely remember what it was... I'd completely forgot almost all of the dream, and then remembered that my daughter and I needed to remove the ABS trim ring before we re-install the hub this weekend.
Just a quick update... we started it for the very first time this afternoon. We didn't have any coolant in it, and no gas in the tank, but I had her crank it and I ran it for about 15-20 seconds on starter fluid. It started on the very first try... I was really impressed. It ran so nice, but the exhaust smelled like rotten eggs (brand new catalytic converter). It was a little tappety because it hadn't built oil pressure of course... (at least initially). Tomorrow we'll fill it with coolant (with the thermostat out) and I just filled the tank about 1/3rd of the way up with gas... and we'll try again, with fire extinguisher in hand.
We're really excited... my daughter said it would be OK for me to share the video of it running... but nothing else since we recorded the first time it ran on it's own, and her excitement of it. but I have a quick video of it running by itself.
The engine runs incredibly smooth. Smoother than any Iron Duke I've ever heard or owned before (I've had 3 before this). It runs absolutely amazing...
We ran it with no thermostat so we could burp it. Run it for a 15-30 seconds, then fill, and repeat. We're also running it with Castrol 5W-30 "Break-In Oil" that we bought from Amazon. We've had it running for about 5 minutes, and it just idles perfect.
The only thing I was concerned about is that the temperature gauge was shooting up way past 260 degrees. Like... shot past the red, and way past where the needle should go. I was really concerned, but then I could remove the thermostat cap and stick my finger in the coolant, and while it was hot, it wasn't crazy. I didn't want a cracked head, so I drove to Harbor Freight and we bought one of those infrared laser-guided temperature reading tools... and at the intake side of the cyl head, it says at most like 145-150 (remember, no thermostat), and then on the other side (belt side), it's 150-155 degrees. The only place on the cyl head where it's hotter, is RIGHT at the joined exhaust port side of the cyl head... which reads 220 degrees.
My guess is that the temperature gauge is messed up. The tachometer also shows that it's doing like 9,000 rpms (way past the 6k mark down to the bottom). It's not, it's probably idling at like 900 rpms. So my gauges are totally messed up, and there's a check engine light on, but otherwise... it runs soooo smooth.
Anyway, I still haven't set the timing, so we'll do that next, but there's a few things we're going to have to work out. For one, the fan stays on 24/7, which it should not... and all the gauges are totally off the wall... which could be anything from my poor wiring job, to who knows. It's also possible that we reversed the wiring on the tach filter... which maybe is causing the tachometer to peg? I dunno.
But, that's major progress, and my daughter is super proud of herself. Going to put the thermostat in, and run it for a bit.
EDIT: that crazy hissing sound was a vacuum leak, and it was coming from the vacuum line elbow that connects to the ThermAC system. For now, I just plugged it with a vacuum port plug. I also found an exhaust leak... it's leaking between the header pipe and the exhaust manifold, so I don't think we tightened it down enough... as when I give it gas, I see smoke coming out of the rear-most part of the manifold... so there's that.
When I plugged the ThermAC line, the check engine went off, and now it idles even better.
[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 10-20-2024).]
My experience with the Isuzu is that 1-1/8" slave travel is essential for the clutch to disengage properly. I suspect you have air in the hydraulics.
My daughter and I just properly bled the clutch... I think there's probably more that we can do... but we were able to engage and disengage the clutch... and for the first time, we (I, she can't drive stick yet), were able to move the car a few feet forward, and a few feed backwards with the transmission!!! The clutch pedal feels pretty good... it's not super light or anything, but I could feel the clutch engaging about mid-way through.
I probably missed it but one critical area is setting the piston ring gaps. Was that done or even checked?
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
I probably missed it but one critical area is setting the piston ring gaps. Was that done or even checked?
It wasn't necessary, because we ordered the piston rings for the specific sized pistons, and for the specific pistons. The machine shop told me it wasn't even necessary to set the ring gap because it would already be sized for the pistons (I used a Hastings piston ring to piston chart).
We did space out the gaps in the piston rings though.
In other news... she put the rear bumper back on, the new license plate bulb brackets, polished out the tail-lights, all new bulbs and bulb grease... got rid of the 125 pound trailer hitch. Installed the honeycomb support and the rear bumper and all the other things. I installed the new throttle cable for her (on the inside). I don't even want to tell you guys... I was swearing something fierce for like an hour. I'm 46 years old, and no longer have the track & field body I had when I was 18/19 when I used to drive cars like this. At 6'3", laying down forward in the drivers side footwell, or on my back in the drivers side footwell, with the seat in there, and trying to get in and out of under the steering wheel. Holy **** ... I never swore so much in my entire life, especially with my daughter sitting in the passenger side. I finally got it in, but damn, if I wasn't pissed. Took forever trying to figure out where it goes (around, behind, etc... ? the brake booster line). We took the car for a spin, it ran awesome... I mean, it just runs amazing. No weird engine noises, just as smooth as can be. It's the smoothest Iron Duke I've ever heard run. And... it has a slight exhaust leak (between the manifold and the down-pipe... need to install a second doughnut in there to help seal it).
Car is really starting to look fantastic. My daughter is so excited... we're like 15 videos or some crap behind... we'll get them out eventually.
At 6'3", laying down forward in the drivers side footwell, or on my back in the drivers side footwell, with the seat in there, and trying to get in and out of under the steering wheel. Holy **** ... I never swore so much in my entire life...
Here's a tip... with the removal of four nuts, you can just yank the driver's seat right outta there. And then throw a floor mat over the four studs sticking up out of the floor.
We're the same height, and I discovered years ago when working under a dash, that removal of the seat(s) makes the task so much easier!
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 11-04-2024).]
Here's a tip... with the removal of four nuts, you can just yank the driver's seat right outta there. And then throw a floor mat over the four studs sticking up out of the floor.
We're the same height, and I discovered years ago when working under a dash, that removal of the seat(s) makes the task so much easier!
Hahah... yeah...
I have nothing to say... I should have done that. I just figured... "so close, I can get it if I just keep trying." I did eventually, but my forearms now look like I was attacked by a thousand kittens.
We took the car for a spin around the neighborhood... with the decklid off, haha...
The car drove amazing... rear suspension and brakes were fantastic. The front end was very clunky (we haven't rebuild that yet).
Shift from 1st to 2nd was crunchy... but I think that's the shifter. Shifting into reverse is so smooth that I kept questioning if I was even in gear.
Anyway, we even gunned it at one point. Brought the car back to the driveway, everything is looking good. I see a coolant leak, almost like a splash. It poured down the front engine bracket and filled up the motor mount. It even splashed a little bit on that frame dampener.
At no point did any of it leak on the driveway, or in the garage... which was weird. It seems to be a very small coolant leak. No idea where it's coming from, but I have to assume it's coming from the rear of the waterpump area where the main hose connects to the neck... possibly even the heater core hose. Kinda frustrated about that, honestly... but I suppose that's part of the process.
One thing I would have had us do differently, is to connect absolutely everything possible before installing the engine and cradle into the engine compartment. Getting those hoses installed (after the fact) into that filler neck was next to impossible.
I'm going to take the A/C compressor off so that I can actually get access to the area and see what's going on... but right now I'm waiting for the catalytic converter to cool. Definitely frustrated. I'm trying to do this before my daughter comes home, I don't want her to have to deal with it, since she was the one that put those tubes in.
LOL... so I removed the A/C compressor, got everything out of there and started trying to see where the leak was from. I couldn't find it anywhere... like... nothing. But the lower part of the pan was a little wet... showing that it was leaking from below the water pump.
I checked all the bolts... the ones mounting the water pump to the pump housing were tight, but i was able to do another 1/4 to 1/2 turn, so I did... but likely not where the leak is from. Then I looked at the bolts that mount the pump housing to the block itself... sigh... they were hand-tight. I don't know how this wasn't leaking before. I think the top one is tight, but the bottom two were barely hand-tight. Like... I could tighten one of them with my finger, and the middle one was easily tightenable with a 1/2" wrench. It's clear to me that this is where it's likely leaking from. It probably didn't leak until it reached a certain temperature / pressure, and only then would it leak. Glad I caught this now... I'm guessing my daughter forgot to torque them down, and didn't ask me to check. But at least I caught it.
Yeah, totally... I should have checked all the bolts before we put the motor back in. It was the pump housing bolts were loose. But I'm fixing it now... so I'm glad I caught it now than later. That's all part of this process, so I'll let her know when she gets home.
I could tighten one of them with my finger, and the middle one was easily tightenable with a 1/2" wrench. It probably didn't leak until it reached a certain temperature / pressure, and only then would it leak.
So no evidence of the coolant system pressure distorting/blowing out the gasket?
So no evidence of the coolant system pressure distorting/blowing out the gasket?
No, it's actually that really hard-plastic gasket that goes between the block and the pump housing. I didn't see anything bad. I tightened everything down and let it run for a bit. I'm going to take it for a ride in about 20 minutes... see how it does and if I get any leaking.
We kind of thrashed it in the neighborhood (so to speak). In areas where there were no homes and an open street, we floored it, etc. I went through the gears (never got above 3rd)... and it did pretty well. I still have that exhaust manifold leak, no idea why... it's kind of frustrating. I think I'm going to swap it out for that Iron Duke shorty header that I have.
Either way, it seems like it's fine. I took a flashlight and inspected, and I saw a single large drop of coolant on the subframe. I'm hoping / thinking that it was from when it leaked the last time. I checked the engine mount bracket and the engine mount... it was wet (from before), but no pooling of coolant. So I'm hoping it's good to go. I'll drive it around a bit some more tomorrow too.
Hey, it happens to everyone sometimes to forget to torque down all the bolts. I had an water pump leak just like yours; after an alternator replacement, I forgot to retighten the bolt that helps the alternator bracket on my application. The bolt is one of the four main water pump bolts!
------------------ "Turbo Slug" - '87 Fiero GT. 3800 turbo. - The fastest Fiero in France! @turboslugfiero https://youtu.be/hUzOAeyWLfM
And then throw a floor mat over the four studs sticking up out of the floor.
