So... some of you know that I'm restoring a Fiero with my daughter. The goal is to basically replace everything. I want her to, at the end of the year, leave the driveway with a brand new Fiero. Literally everything on it will have been completely rebuilt or renovated. We're only at the stage where she's dropped the engine cradle and will begin dismantling the engine to rebuild it. The only other thing she's done is remove and replace the fuel tank, with new pickup, fuel pump, fuel hoses, and sanded and painted the tank, with new bolts and straps. Other than that... we haven't done too much to it (but we have a couple of years, she's only 14).
But I added up the total for all of this, and it comes out to $2,646.07
While I'm paying for everything she does, I make her do all the work, but in going through the costs associated with the renovation, she'll learn how much things realistically cost. She's 14, so she's not totally ignorant to this, but so that she understands when she gets her own job, that things aren't simply free.
Big thing for me personally... I'll be able to accurately price what a reasonable restoration of a car will cost (for myself, and for the Fiero list), when you do almost all the work yourself (except some machining, transmission rebuilding, and suspension alignment). I plan to catalog everything onto my crappy personal website (haha) http://www.PontiacPerformance.net.
So, I paid $4,000 for the car, and my estimation is that I've only acquired maybe 1/4th of the number of parts (and cost) of what I'll have to spend. I still haven't actually done any machine work, rebuilt the transmission, or bought very much if anything of the suspension parts (no springs or shocks, ball joints, etc.), and I also haven't purchased any major brake parts (rotors, calipers, etc.). But this gives me at least a ball-par estimation now. I suspect that in total, the car + renovation will cost (without needing a paint job), $15,000 to $17,500. I'm giving myself a buffer there because I'm not accounting for spray paint (chassis parts, fluids, etc.).
Now, I know that seems horrible for a 1985 Pontiac Fiero 2m4 5-Speed, but in reality... my daughter will be getting more than a "brand new" Fiero. She'll have learned to do literally every single thing there is to do (to an extent) on a car. And while she won't come away with a degree from it, that's experience that will help her in everything else she does.
Most of the parts I've purchased have been from the Fiero Store, Rodney Dickman, and various online auto parts stores when they have clearance stuff. Unfortunately, I noticed in a few situations (which is one of the main reasons we did this accounting today) is because I discovered that I was buying duplicate parts. Almost everything that was duplicated though, I can use on my own Fiero, so I do not feel so bad about it.
Anyway, thought I'd share because I found the cost to be interesting. My daughter and I went through every single part and spread them out, and she called out all the part numbers so I could write them down into the spreadsheet (for another video she's going to make). But at least now I can put this stuff back, but into separate boxes by part type (brakes, coolant stuff, etc.).
This is the current list of parts we've purchased:
[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 09-30-2023).]
I suspect that in total, the car + renovation will cost (without needing a paint job), $15,000 to $17,500.
Scary to think that what you're doing would cost $20,000 to $24,000 in Canadian funds.
I admire the fact that you are single-handedly attempting to jump-start the American economy ... but man oh man, I personally just couldn't justify doing what you're doing.
Yes, I understand that your daughter is receiving an education... but IMO what she's learning to do is to throw money at a challenge (by simply buying new everything), and not learning how to determine what can be re-used/repaired and what needs to be replaced.
I grew up with very few luxuries. It was drilled into my head to not waste anything. So now, even though I'm fairly well off, I still have the same mind-set. I realize not everyone has the same values as me, and that's not a criticism... but it might explain why you and I possibly tackle a situation in a completely different manner.
Originally posted by Patrick:Scary to think that what you're doing would cost $20,000 to $24,000 in Canadian funds.
I admire the fact that you are single-handedly attempting to jump-start the American economy ... but man oh man, I personally just couldn't justify doing what you're doing.
Yes, I understand that your daughter is receiving an education... but IMO what she's learning to do is to throw money at a challenge (by simply buying new everything), and not learning how to determine what can be re-used/repaired and what needs to be replaced.
I grew up with very few luxuries. It was drilled into my head to not waste anything. So now, even though I'm fairly well off, I still have the same mind-set. I realize not everyone has the same values as me, and that's not a criticism... but it might explain why you and I possibly tackle a situation in a completely different manner.
Hahah... I don't mind the judgement Patrick, but this is a 38 year old car. This isn't like taking a 2005 Toyota Corolla, and then learning how to fix a couple of things when they break. This car is basically a (pretty) pile of **** as it sits, and literally everything is worn out on it except the tires. When I was 18, I was broke, and I had a ~10 year old Fiero that I bought with my own money. It was a reasonably new car that I learned to fix things on when they broke.
She will be rebuilding the engine herself, along with everything else. What I don't want, is for my 14 year old daughter to drive a car that I have to worry about whether or not it's going to constantly break down on her.
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what she's learning to do is to throw money at a challenge (by simply buying new everything)
Do you want her to rebuild her rubber bushings? Or should she be buying them new? Should she be re-welding metal onto the tri-pots of the CV axles, or learn how to replace the axles? Is there a way to rebuild an O2 sensor, or a temperature sensor?
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So now, even though I'm fairly well off, I still have the same mind-set. I realize not everyone has the same values as me, and that's not a criticism... but it might explain why you and I possibly tackle a situation in a completely different manner.
Well... I was never homeless, but there were many times I had to check the pay phones for change so I could buy a box of Mac n' Cheese at the gas station so I could eat dinner. I mean, if you're comparing yourself to me... I had a good upbringing... but when I was 18, my parents kicked me out (in a loving way), and I had to get roommates, pay my way through college, etc... which I think is pretty standard / normal. I don't know that you can say I'm a conservative because I'm paying for the parts for my daughter to restore her car.
She's 14. In 4 years, she'll be out of the house and in college. This is something she really enjoys, and by 16-17, she'll have essentially learned how to do almost every repair you could ever think to do. It's something that as a dad, I can do to spend time with her. $17k for a lifetime memory, and a absurdly invaluable experience... it's a no brainer. If that makes me conservative, I suppose I'll take it.
[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 09-30-2023).]
I strongly disagree with this, by the way. Do you want her to rebuild her rubber bushings? Or should she be buying them new? Should she be re-welding metal onto the tri-pots of the CV axles, or learn how to replace the axles? Is there a way to rebuild an O2 sensor, or a temperature sensor?
Hey, if you've determined that everything you've listed is in need of replacement... go for it!
The important thing is that you're spending quality time with your daughter, and that's priceless.
Hey, if you've determined that everything you've listed is in need of replacement... go for it!
The important thing is that you're spending quality time with your daughter, and that's priceless.
It's kind of the point of the project. It ran, isn't a rust bucket, and is complete. And that's what I was looking for. I introduce her to everything I can to see what sticks / interests her. She's proud of the work she's doing, and that's valuable in and of itself. But yeah, basically everything on this car SHOULD be replaced to make it a reliable car that I would feel safe for her to be in. It's not like she's not getting her hands dirty.
If she had shitty grades, I'd definitely not be doing this. She hasn't gotten a B since the 3rd grade. Literally, she's had straight As, every single class, every single report card, every single year... and not like basket weaving either, but AP classes. She's written two books, plays 3 instruments, speaks 2 languages, and taught herself how to computer program (and even to hack, which is a little unfortunate). When I was her age, I was getting Cs and Ds and knocking over Port-O-Potties at construction sites with my friends. So... I have to feed that brain, or someone else will.
[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 09-30-2023).]
Good on you Todd. I think it's so important to spend time teaching our young adults skills they would never get from grade school and it builds the lifetime bond that will never be broken. sleek
Good on you Todd. I think it's so important to spend time teaching our young adults skills they would never get from grade school and it builds the lifetime bond that will never be broken. sleek
Thanks Sleek, I appreciate it. She's now in high school, and none of her friends know the first thing about cars. It may not matter in the future for them, but I think it helps people understand how things work. A lot different than when I was in high school, where a bunch of kids had project cars. Growing up, I always saw my dad working on and building things. Never cars, usually wood-work and other stuff... but I took from that and learned how to do other things. So I think this helps.
Thats very cool, I cant wait to something like that w my lil guy when hes older. I got him into cars and he loves monster jam. Closest thing I can get is the lego monster trucks(hate f^%$ing legos!), and fixing/modding his rc trucks. Def good times. Anything to keep him off the screen lol
im in financially the same boat as you so far paid $3700 for a driveable 87 gt july 2022 discovered massive cradle rot, rusted brake, fuel lines, suspension parts because i didnt know what i was doing when i bought the car ....in it for $2500 in parts so far. mostly fierostore.
the light is at the end of the tunnel as ive slowed down buying parts. goal is to get it running again and then maybe tidy up the engine (there is some kind of oil leak going on) later.
I sure wish I had someone helping me when I was a teenager, I'm now in my 40s and im really just now getting down and dirty with cars.
The skills she’ll learn will transfer to everything she does when she gets older, tasks will seem much less daunting. My son bought his Fiero at 15, we put a little money into it…the basics. Now he’s 34 and I rebuilt it for him….he financed it, lol. Into it for about $4500….still needs paint. Everything mechanical has been rebuilt or replaced. Probably too much money but….I have more than that in two bass guitars..
Kind of OT, but I have learned that new drivers will probably have accidents.
When my kids started driving I wanted them to have dependable cars, but I did not want to buy them brand new cars that they would probably be banging up. It is kind of a difficult balancing act.
You can't buy much of a new car for $15K and if she does all that work she probably deserves a car worth at least that much. But if this is supposed to be a "learning experience" it might be a good idea to teach her how to decide which parts really have to be replaced and which ones don't.
Originally posted by hyperv6 I have preached it is better to buy a low mile unrestored car vs restoring one due to expense and difficulty getting parts. You can restore a $1200 car and end up with a $18,000 high mile car that still is not as good as a $10,000 low mile car.
I agree IF we're talking about "A Car."
But to me, I think we're taking about "A Hobby or Pleasure."
Like 82-T/A is doing; I'm refurbishing my one-owner '88 GT and going through the entire car to make sure everything is in top shape except the factory air conditioning. My last chapter is the interior and the list of parts totals $7,173 for I'll say normal parts of a 'tired' vehicle. To me, a 'low mile 1988 GT' at a reasonable price will be hard to find in 2023.
I have also refurbished my '84 Chevrolet Scottsdale K10 which I bought brand-new too. The truck was 'long in the tooth' and I put in the time and money to restore it at the tune of $12k. Do you know how much a 'low mile' 1984 C/K10 are selling these days?
As hyperv6 preaches; I too buy low mile unrestored vehicles as a "daily driver". I bought my wife a 2000 Ford Taurus SE Comfort model with 50k miles on the clock and the price was only $5k. It's a very clean Duratec 24-valve, DOHC, 3.0-liter V6 engine with 200 horsepower.
But to ME, I enjoy our classic hobby more!
------------------ Original Owner of a Silver '88 GT Under 'Production Refurbishment' @ 136k Miles
[This message has been edited by Vintage-Nut (edited 10-02-2023).]
Car parts are more expensive now than ever. That is for the ones you can find.
I just bought a low mile 2002 Corvette and it is not in need of much as it is like new but I can buy most parts for it yet today.
Now like most 80’s cars few parts are reproduced. Most are Corvette, Camaro, Mustang. And A body GM cars. Trucks also have tons of support.
Everything else is pretty much hard to find. A number of Fiero people are sitting on NOS parts but they come in the market rarely. If they do you will pay dearly.
As for restoration. Most cars even a 65 GTO can cost more to restore than they are worth today. Labor is not cheap and few can properly paint a car today.
I find often restored cars selling below what was put in them.
Any car you buy can be a learning experience. My Vette though low miles I still did a number of things.
Plugs, wires, filters, brake fluid, oil, gear oil change, power steering fluid, PCV were all changed.
I had to replace a bushing on the seats as the rocked due to deteriorating bushings on the power seats from age. $27 part.
Unless you are wanting a truly hard to find car like a 69 Trans Am or say your car from high school starting out with a low price car is just not always a cheap way to bring a car back.
There are plenty of learning on newer cars but also you need to teach basic economics too and how to get the most for your money. I see many lose money on cars all the time and it is because no one taught them how to save money.
I still shake my head at people who pay sticker price on new cars. Till 2021 I always got $6k to $8K off with learning where and how to save money.
To me, the MAIN point in your post above is BUDGET and SAVING.
Many people don't have any 'control' on their finances as they don't have a functioning budget.
Budget 101 is about full income with 'buckets' for ALL expenditures including saving which 'the bottom line' must show where each cent is accounted.
BTW: The $12k of my '84 Chevrolet Scottsdale K10 refurbish took eight years as my 'classic hobby' is last in line of expenditures.......
The real trouble is people walk into these projects with no idea of the cost of parts, paint and labor. It looks good till they get into it and find hidden damage or that things cost more then they expect. This is what creates so many project cars sitting with crap stacked on them in a garage.
Other issues are people getting in over their head. I have seen many say Oh I am going to install a DOHC V6 Twin Turbo but they lack the knowledge or they do not identify someone with the ability and then they run the price up on them,
There are so many ways these projects can go wrong. People get emotionally tied to a car that is a money pit is another.
I see it every day at work and so many have champagne taste but a beer budget. Actually a water budget.
It takes some automotive intelligence to enter into a building program. I don't mean knowing how to work on the car but just understanding what it takes and the cost involved before you get started. Too few do the research.
This is where buying a finished project is a bonus to many. Know what you can pay and take your time to buy the best car you can afford. I waited my Corvette till my kids Collage was over and that let me buy a car I really have not had anything to do but regula maintenance.
Well, I can see your view of the two sides on the 'Transportation vs. Enjoyment' coin, and I use both.
If I'm hunger; I'll go to the market and buy some salmon. If I desire a pleasurable activity, I'll spend more time and money on recreational salmon fishing.
So as I said above, my garage has both; *'Daily Drivers' which I only do routine preventive maintenance *Refurbish older vehicles like my classic Fiero as a hobby
Fortunately, PFF members have the freedom to choose!
Well, I can see your view of the two sides on the 'Transportation vs. Enjoyment' coin, and I use both.
If I'm hunger; I'll go to the market and buy some salmon. If I desire a pleasurable activity, I'll spend more time and money on recreational salmon fishing.
So as I said above, my garage has both; *'Daily Drivers' which I only do routine preventive maintenance *Refurbish older vehicles like my classic Fiero as a hobby
Fortunately, PFF members have the freedom to choose!
My point is from a financial point of view.
I love to work on cars too but I also work to be wise with my money to minimize loses and to continue to pursue my hobby.
I never made a payment on a car till my sixth one. With each I sold I made money on them because I bought good cars.
Also I want cars that are in prime condition. They are hard to return to this condition.
As for daily or weekend cars I treat them all the same to maximize return if and when they are sold.
You can still work on cars but you can better afford them if you are smart on what to buy.
My buddy was going to buy a C6 Corvette because it was a good deal. Then I looked at it. The car was used up and had a bad pan oil leak.
He said oh I can fix that till I pointed out that the front suspension needed lowered and the engine raised. That was more than he could do and it is $1k to have fixed.
After I got him to walk. We found a lower mile model in much better shape. It need a few things fix fixed but these were in his wheel house.
I love working on cars and always can find something to do. But I hate losing money more.
Also working in a well cared car is better vs working on a basket case. Most cars are not great investments.
All this talk of fixing, restoring, and budgeting leads me to make this point.
I bought my Fiero in 1993 and from the day I bought it I intended to restore it to show car glory and just use the car as a fun hobby. For seven years I worked on the restoration, selecting a part of the vehicle to restore for each year's project. I would write out a list of the work to be done, the parts that probably would need to be purchased/replaced, as well as get estimates for work to be done by others (welding, painting, powdercoating, plating, or some mechanical repairs that I decided would be best completed if I paid to have them done). I then took the list of parts and work and assigned a cost to everything, which gave me a cost estimate for the project. But the one thing I did every year with that list and cost was to take the cost estimate and triple it - if I could not afford that dollar amount, then I investigated a project on a different part of the car. I had worked out a cost estimate. But being an estimate I had to be realistic about additional unexpected costs that would be part of getting the job done.
Some guy take up flying or racing .it all costs big time. Think of quads or jetboating. We all spend too much getting our adrenalin rush but so be it. If you can afford it you are going to do it and the same goes for cars. Todd just do what feels right for you and your Daughter. You will never regret it and if there is a little jealousy from the other members so be it. ( Jeese I've spent like 50 grand Canadian on mine over 30 Years ) sleek
Hey guys, thanks for all the responses. I apologize, I was on a trip and didn't see these replies.
Just wanted to make sure I was clear, since I see a lot of back and forth about cost. The primary goal (for me) of this car project is to teach my daughter how to work on a car and be mechanically inclined. The primary goal (for her) is to have videos / efforts to show for her so that she can get into MIT (this is entirely her goal, nothing at all that I've had anything to do with). I'm funding the renovation because she's doing everything right as a kid.
I had to buy my first car, so I understand where most people are coming from. But I was getting Cs and Ds and knocking over Port-O-Potties, while she has straight-As, and all the other accolades. So I don't mind the cost. But the secondary goal for me is that she ends up with a car that's basically perfect, and... if it does need something fixed, she can 100% do the repair herself because she'll likely have already done that.
Someone mentioned replacing old (good) parts with new parts. I'm refurbing parts that need refurbishment, like the coffee can, steel tubes, rebuilding the TBI unit with new gaskets, etc. Things like that. But we're basically replacing all the wear items... O2 sensor, temperature sensor, hoses, etc ... and of course, rebuilding the motor. Also, I've been buying a lot of things on clearance and closeout as they come up. I find that the closeout parts are cheaper, and actually better quality than the newer replacement parts. So all the parts I'm buying are either made int he US (NOS parts basically), or Bosch or other quality replacement parts. There's not really "much" to the 85 Fiero though.
The goal / point of this post is part of the bigger picture of understanding what she's doing, and the cost associated with it. She knows I'm funding it (obviously) because she gets good grades, etc. But I want her to know what these things cost, and understand having to document the costs and restoration (which is another video she's making).
[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 10-06-2023).]
...and if there is a little jealousy from the other members so be it.
???
I'm not sure who you might've had in mind. I was probably the most outspoken against spending that much money on this car... but I can assure you that "jealousy" played no part in anything I had to say. My major point of contention was replacing parts that didn't need to be replaced. To me, determining what needs to be replaced should be part and parcel of an automotive education. If everything is in need of replacement, party on!
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Originally posted by Patrick:
The important thing is that you're spending quality time with your daughter, and that's priceless.
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: The primary goal (for her) is to have videos / efforts to show for her so that she can get into MIT (this is entirely her goal, nothing at all that I've had anything to do with).
Just took m y son to a MIT presentation in Nashville. It is a different type of school. He is a senior, but there were juniors and even some so[phomores there. Don't know what grade your daughter is in, but they may come someplace close to you. It seemed like the same presentation you get at any school visit before they take you out walking around the campus, except you don't have to go to Boston.
And I will repeat what everyone else has said about the most important part being spending time with your daughter.
[This message has been edited by fredtoast (edited 10-07-2023).]
Originally posted by Patrick: My major point of contention was replacing parts that didn't need to be replaced. To me, determining what needs to be replaced should be part and parcel of an automotive education. If everything is in need of replacement, party on!
I think if you look at the car in totality... the suspension and brakes all need to be redone. You wouldn't reuse the ball joints, bushings, or any of those things any more than you'd keep reusing the same socks every day after taking a shower.
When you restore a car, you generally replace everything, and that's what she's doing. There isn't much on the Fiero that you would reuse except brackets, control arms, etc. Things like the fuel pump or alternator are consumable items... not to mention that the entire engine has a 1/4" (and sometimes 1/2") layer of caked oil and road grime from an obvious valve cover leak that had never been fixed. And so then we look at things like sensors. I can take a cyl head coolant temperature sensor and spend 10 minutes cleaning it with degreaser, a toothrbush, and emory cloth... or I can buy an NOS GM sensor for $8.43 on Rock Auto. I may still save the old sensors as spares.
The car runs, but it has all the typical Fiero problems... bent clutch pedal (which is funny... because that's why they sold it for so cheap, even after doing a whole clutch job), but the car is ragged out. It needs to be completely redone.
Originally posted by 82-T/A: I may still save the old sensors as spares.
We think alike!
I consistently save vintage/classic/hard-to-find parts and to me, it's wise to keep 'spares' as some parts may be discontinued without any aftermarket support.
I consistently save vintage/classic/hard-to-find parts and to me, it's wise to keep 'spares' as some parts may be discontinued without any aftermarket support.
Yeah, definitely... if the parts are still working, and they're good and don't take up too much space... then you never know when you may need it if not for any other reason than to test purposes if you're ever questioning whether or not the one ON the car is bad.
There is absolutely no price that you can put on a child's upbringing and giving them a good start in life. These moments that you spend with her, helping to restore this car, are priceless and will strengthen the bond you already have.
So, I wanted to revive this slightly old thread and give an update.
As of right now, I've spent a total of $12,509.58 on my daughter's Fiero. Originally I'd estimated (above) about $17k, so my estimation is that I'm probably going to go a little bit over this. Just to confirm, I'll lay out where the money has been spent, and effectively "what I get for it." I'm doing this for anyone who is interested, or considering whether or not they want to do a full mechanical restoration to "like new" condition also.
When I got the car, it was in running condition. Nothing was effectively "broken," but it did not really run well. The engine ran, but there were clutch issues (mostly the clutch needed bleeding), engine smoked a little, but it had ~200k miles on it. Suspension was shot, but mostly everything was working. It had not been in any accidents, and was a solid platform for my daughter to rebuild everything.
With the ~$12k, here is what we'll have thus far:
- Completely rebuilt rear suspension - Completely rebuilt stock 2.5 engine - All new engine accessories, all new sensors, and a reconditioned wiring harness with new plug leads. - All new rear brakes (lines, calipers, rotors, pads, emergency brake hardware, everything) - Completely reconditioned engine compartment, with new battery tray - Engine compartment, accessories, bolts, brackets, everything will be "gleaming." - Reconditioned fuel tank, new fuel lines, new pickup, new pump, etc. - ALL new cooling hoses, clamps, you name it, etc. - New hubs, new axles. - Random bits from Rodney Dickman to make the Fiero better, new exhaust hangers, etc.
Basically... everything from the license plate bracket to the back window, will be "brand new," or cleaned / sanded / painted. Hard to really emphasize this... because literally every bolt is put in a rock tumbler, chased with a threat chaser (both the holes and the bolt threads), and the tops painted.
Among the $12k also includes the following parts, which she will eventually get around to: - everything to rebuild the entire front suspension, and replace everything from the front brakes minus the hoses and calipers (which I will eventually get). - Rebuild the headlights - Completely replace all cooling components (that aren't already addressed with what she's replaced in the rear) - Several interior parts to replace some broken parts, new Mr. Mike seat covers, and several other things. - New front body / hood seals.
What I haven't accounted for yet:
- Transmission: We opted to have the 5-Speed Isuzu be rebuilt. While it "worked" there were some hidden issues, and it had over 200k of miles on it. The transmission shop had to buy a parts transmission, and they're making a good one out of both of them, along with all new seals, new bearings, etc. But it'll be 100% like a new transmission when I get it back. Unfortunately, I'm probably going to be spending close to $3,500 for this. - Total cost of converting from an DA6 to a V5 compressor, and potentially any damage or anything else that needs to be replaced.
Other than needing to repaint the side mirrors back to black, for the most part, the paint is quite good, so no real issue there. Overall, I think the total cost will come out to closer to $18-19k when all is said and done. I'll explain why in response to this...
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Originally posted by Patrick:Yes, I understand that your daughter is receiving an education... but IMO what she's learning to do is to throw money at a challenge (by simply buying new everything), and not learning how to determine what can be re-used/repaired and what needs to be replaced.
I grew up with very few luxuries. It was drilled into my head to not waste anything. So now, even though I'm fairly well off, I still have the same mind-set. I realize not everyone has the same values as me, and that's not a criticism... but it might explain why you and I possibly tackle a situation in a completely different manner.
I certainly thought about this, because a lack of respect for the dollar is not something I wanted to push onto my daughter. I was born with a lot of luxuries... I mean, my first set of dishes when I moved out on my own were the hand-me-down set from my parents yacht. So I recognize the irony there. But.. my parents were very much of the principle "you're on your own." And for good reason. They pushed me out at 18 (in a nice way), and had to get roommates, and make my own way. My Fiero was my first car, and it broke down... mostly at convenient times (never left me stranded in a situation where I would be really screwed). But for the most part, I never had the money to pay someone to fix it (and my parents were all about me solving my own problems), so I had to teach myself to fix it. I learned often times by breaking things... and ultimately that helped me.
But the difference here is that this is my daughter, and so to a degree there's a gender-bias here... but I don't want my daughter to potentially be stuck or stranded. At the same time... it's unlikely that unless we went through the car completely, she would ever really learn (or particularly have the interest) in fixing her car when a few random things break. Certainly, there's nothing I liked less than getting under a car in a scorching hot South Florida parking lot to replace a part. I'm trying to teach her everything I've learned about cars over the past 20 years, in less than 2 years. And I think I've mostly been successful in that, and she's even become really interested in it. So while I "DO" consider this an "education" that I'm paying for, she's also going to get a "brand new car" out of it, essentially. The car will literally be as new as they come without actually having just been manufactured. This is important, because while fixing problems as they occur can be a positive learning experience too, it can also lead to quickly being frustrated. These cars are old enough now that it's no longer possible to have the same "experience" that most of us had when we bought our cars with 50-60k miles ~30 years ago. They still mostly drove "like new," and that's a whole experience I want her to be able to have also... and not be driving around a piece of **** . I could have paid that money "up front" and gotten a car that didn't need as much work, and she wouldn't have learned much of anything. She's learning so much doing this, and I'm learning too. More importantly... she's proud of what she's accomplished.
That last point is huge for me. I don't want to upset anyone, but kids today have so many challenges and problems that I don't think we faced when we were kids, at least... they were different. The majority of her friends are trans. Those that aren't suffer from some kind of mental illness, or some kind of autism. I live in a really exclusive area, and her high school graduating class is a complete mess. It's not the people she attracts (she's friends with everyone), but it's a sign more of the times and the influences that kids experience day to day. Her working on this car has kept her grounded, and other than her studies, music, and sports... it's yet another thing that she works towards and can be proud of.
So... just wanted to throw that all out there. It's definitely been a very expensive process. I'm saving in some areas, and spending a little extra in other areas. But she's committed to see it through. She got the engine together, and she's looking to put it back in the car once she gets the transmission back from the shop.
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: ... And so then we look at things like sensors. I can take a cyl head coolant temperature sensor and spend 10 minutes cleaning it with degreaser, a toothrbush, and emory cloth... or I can buy an NOS GM sensor for $8.43 on Rock Auto. I may still save the old sensors as spares.
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Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Yeah, definitely... if the parts are still working, and they're good and don't take up too much space... then you never know when you may need it if not for any other reason than to test purposes if you're ever questioning whether or not the one ON the car is bad.
Why would you replace a sensors if the one you are replacing is good, ?
In jest Todd. My nick name for some is Pack Rat, . I have so much stuff that I can not find it when I might need it. Till after I buy another, .
To me, I believe that you have more disposable income than the 'average' Fiero owner.......
Well, again, I don't really see it that way. Most of us are thinking 1990s / 2000 money. I had to buy my own car back in the 90s, but I also got ~Cs and had no direction other than working at McDonalds. She gets straight As and is involved in dozens of things. She's way more mature and responsible than I am. But as many middle-class parents do, they buy their kids a decent used car. In part because they want their kids to be safe, specifically, because they don't want the car breaking down. If I end up spending $20k on restoring a car... that's the same price as a 2-3 year old Honda Civic sedan. My daughter is getting a $35k automotive education, while ending up with a brand new sports car from the 80s (which... 80s cars are insanely popular among the kids in her school right now).
Originally posted by cliffw: Why would you replace a sensors if the one you are replacing is good, ?
Well, they were all "working," but when sensors are $5-$20 bucks new on Rock Auto for NOS "Closeout" parts, why put the old worn out sensors (many of which have 200k miles) back in a brand new rebuilt and painted engine? It doesn't make sense.
But Fieros have been making mechanics out of owners since ...
By the way, does your Daughter have any kind of an on board tool bag ? Does she know that an ignition module is a good thing to have on board ?
We were literally just talking about that with her yesterday. We're going to put something together that she can keep in the front (within the inside of the spare tire wheel) that has a basic tool set (sockets, drive bits, etc.) with all the spare sensors, ignition control module, etc.
In all my cars, there's always a little sneaky storage area that doesn't get accessed very often, and I usually put stuff like that in there. Including 3 MREs and water in case we get stuck somewhere and are super hungry.
Good job Todd. Most people overlook the fact that this is a hobby for some of us and the money spent is not important. I have always gotten enjoyment out of working on my Fiero's and when I don't I step away for awhile. Most golfers don't care how much money they spend on there equipment.
Yes. Good job. I haven't commented too much in your threads. Mostly because I'm not here as much as some, and they have already beat me to an answer. But you are doing a great thing. She'll be a better mechanic than most guys her age, and will hopefully be able to figure her way out of a "tight", if something breaks. This to possibly include when she's riding with someone else.
My dad was a jack of all trades, and a fairly decent mechanic. But he was also pretty busy trying to earn a living, so he didn't do much of his/our mechanical work. He did help me out, but mostly I had to learn as I went along. I "broke" several cars in the process. He also was not as passionate about cars as I was/am. To him, a car was merely an appliance. So he wasn't interested in modding anything. He thought it was foolish.
He was however a "boat guy". Rebuilt a 23' wooden Chris Craft (mostly) in our carport. And then his health went to hell, so he only got to enjoy it for a couple of years. Oh well...
Spending 17 grand on a Fiero is stupid if we look at just monetary value. Spending any money on these cheesy old sports cars is monetarily stupid.
Who gives a hoot.
She going to have a car worth far more to her than 17k in emotional attachment alone. It will be basically perfect. Sure Im not big on the parts shotgun approach of just replacing everything, but if you are spending this money with the idea of this being a learning experience, than replacing everything is the best option!
Congrats and thank you for keeping such good documentation, this will turn out to be quite useful date in the future.
I'm not on here as much as I used to be, but still have my Fiero and pop in from time to time to see what's goin' on. This subject is pretty close to my heart, so I thought I'd post.
Todd, I can promise you that if you complete this with your daughter, you will be forever grateful you did. I did the same thing with my son when he was 15. We bought a 1980 Turbo Trans Am, and went completely through it. I bankrolled the whole thing. We learned about and rebuilt the engine, suspension, interior, etc. We did/restored everything but paint the car. We fired it up right before his 18th birthday. My wife and I gave him the car officially as a High School graduation present, and we promised him that if he got through college without wrapping it around a pole, that we would paint it for him. He and I got to spend a lot of time together and learn a lot together - something I will never forget. He drove the car a lot while in college, and enjoyed every minute of it. He graduated from college in December with a degree in Mechanical Engineering and a degree in Aerospace Engineering, and an MBA, and he did it in a little over 5 years. He now has a great job as an engineer at a manufacturing company back here in our hometown. After he recently pulled the engine, transmission, dash, interior, etc., the Trans Am was sent to the body shop. It was sandblasted at the body shop last week. In a few weeks, he'll have a shiny, better-than-new 1980 Turbo Trans Am (with some gratuitous speed hop-ups, of course)., and needless to say, he is totally stoked to get that thing back on the road! If I had to go back and do it all again, I wouldn't change a thing!
Best wishes for much success to you and your daughter on your project!
While teaching a child mechanics it is also to teach them wisdom with money and economics.
There are always things to fix and cars that need fixed but you do not have to put your entire investment into one 200k mile basket.
I learned different things on a series of cars that permitted me to make money on each car. After 5 years I made enough to buy my Fieto new with cash.
Sadly I look back and the cars I fixed up and sold all but one will bring over $40K or more today. Yes I kept the Fiero lol!
No one can say I am into Fiero’s for the money. But I more than doubled my money on each project by buying the right car and fixing it with reasonable costs.
... but man oh man, I personally just couldn't justify doing what you're doing.
I was probably the most outspoken against spending that much money on this car... but I can assure you that "jealousy" played no part in anything I had to say. My major point of contention was replacing parts that didn't need to be replaced. To me, determining what needs to be replaced should be part and parcel of an automotive education. If everything is in need of replacement, party on!
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. I have so much stuff that I can not find it when I might need it. Till after I buy another, 
