Just yesterday, my water pump on my 85 GT started making squealing noises. I grabbed the pulley and sure enough I could feel bearing play, ☹️ Anyways, it’s been a long time since I’ve done a V6 water pump on a Fiero. Tips/Advice?
I already have the water pump on order. (Gates brand - yes, it’s supposed to have the metal impeller) It’s supposed to have the pipe already installed, it comes with 3 threaded studs and that rectangular bracket doo-hookie thingy. (sorry, don’t remember what it’s called but I know it’s there to support the timing cover seal. As an fyi , I typically don’t trust the thin paper gaskets that come with these aftermarket water pumps so I ordered the Fel-Pro version separately. Lastly, recommendations on gasket sealer? I have always used Permatex #2b. Kit
[This message has been edited by Kitskaboodle (edited 05-14-2024).]
As you probably can remember, the job isn't difficult but it's pretty tedious. You have to get all the old gasket material and sealant off the engine while working in a tight area where you can barely see.
Most people remove the battery to gain a little room. I don't.... I manage but it's tight. Be sure also to use zip ties or something to keep any wiring harness out of the way. Some of my wire loom is missing so the wires there are kind of haphazard and they will surely get in the way as you're trying to install the new pump with sealant all over it.
There are a lot of opinions on the forum about whether or not you need to use a bracket to keep the timing cover from coming loose when you remove all the water pump bolts. Some say that is only needed on the REALLY early 2.8s (like 1980 or so) and some say you should use the bracket regardless. I don't know which is correct but it does sound like it's safer to use the bracket. Rodney sells a neat little bracket that is really easy to use because it doesn't require removal of the alternator bracket.
My car is an '88 so it came with Torx bolts on the water pump. I replaced all of those with the hex bolt kit Rodney sells, but yours being an '85 should be hex anyway. One clever thing I did on mine is to replace one of the bolts (its the one closest to the heater pipe) with a threaded stud and a couple of nuts and washers. This is the one bolt location on the water pump where there is a gap behind it, and I suppose the possibility exists that someone could overtighten that bolt and break the water pump there. I replaced that bolt with a stud, and I used one nut and washer on it to secure the timing cover, and a second nut and washer to secure the water pump. Now a) I never will have to worry about my timing cover coming loose when replacing a water pump, and b) the stud serves as a nice locating dowel for the new water pump.
Be sure to use thread sealant on the couple of bolts that need it. That should be mentioned in the instructions that came with your new water pump.
CSS nailed most of the good advice on water-pump replacement on 2.8 Fieros....But I will throw a couple of more at you;
A) Be very careful with the small bolts that thread into the timing chain cover....it is very easy to strip the threads in that >>ALUMINUM<< TC cover.
B) Make sure that your replacement pump has a METAL impeller- back in 1999 I installed an F-body 3.4 block and of course installed a new water-pump- with a PLASTIC impeller.....a few months later my car overheated on the way to work in the morning- it did this twice more- always in the same spot on the freeway...Got her home by removing the thermostat so water could flow freely (And of course, this removed drag from the flow thru the impeller so it would actually spin- but at first I did not know that)
Someone who knew Fieros finally told me about the plastic impeller problem; The impeller, exposed to the warm water, expands (being plastic, it expands MORE than metal) and starts slipping on the steel shaft (Which is (basically) NOT exposed to the warm water)...
Lots of pertinent information in my old thread here... Where the heck is this coolant leaking from? Make sure to pay special attention to what I say (and what css9450 has said) about the clamp... before you loosen the bolts for the old water pump.
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Originally posted by Patrick:
Speaking about the clamp, I have never seen an image anywhere on the 'net (including Pennock's) of one actually being used. Behold...this is where it goes!
And yes, you install the clamp before you loosen any water pump bolts!
quote
Originally posted by css9450:
One clever thing I did on mine is to replace one of the bolts (its the one closest to the heater pipe) with a threaded stud and a couple of nuts and washers. This is the one bolt location on the water pump where there is a gap behind it, and I suppose the possibility exists that someone could overtighten that bolt and break the water pump there. I replaced that bolt with a stud, and I used one nut and washer on it to secure the timing cover, and a second nut and washer to secure the water pump. Now a) I never will have to worry about my timing cover coming loose when replacing a water pump, and b) the stud serves as a nice locating dowel for the new water pump.
What is the purpose of the gap that I've indicated with a question mark? Shouldn't there at least be a stud with a nut on it used to hold down the timing cover below the water pump at that location?
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 05-13-2024).]
Kits... I noticed you said you need it to have the pipe installed. Can I ask, why DO you want that pipe on there? For a Fiero, I've only ever replaced the water pump on an 87 V6... and it didn't use the pipe. I had to remove it with some vice grips and install the plug from my original. There was a factory way of connecting to the heater hoses, and that wasn't it. I did own a 1985 Fiero GT 4-Speed, and a couple of 86 SE V6s, but never changed the water pump on them. Was that tube factory for some of the years?
quote
Originally posted by cvxjet:
Make sure that your replacement pump has a METAL impeller- back in 1999 I installed an F-body 3.4 block and of course installed a new water-pump- with a PLASTIC impeller.....a few months later my car overheated on the way to work in the morning- it did this twice more- always in the same spot on the freeway...Got her home by removing the thermostat so water could flow freely (And of course, this removed drag from the flow thru the impeller so it would actually spin- but at first I did not know that).
This same thing happened to me... unfortunately, it was on my 2.8 V6/60... original motor, had about 120k miles on it... impeller slipped and the thing overheated something fierce. I developed a rod knock, and had to completely rebuild my engine... which I did, and then I wiped a cam lobe after 3,000 miles.
I think 85-86 used the heater pipe, and 87-88 did not. The changeover may not have been that exact though.
Next time I see a really old 2.8 in a junkyard or wherever, like in a Citation or something, I'll look and see if there is a nut there or something. Been a awhile since I've seen one though.
My 85 GT has the heater pipe. Thanks everyone for all the info. I like the idea about placing the new water pump on top of some cardboard, tracing around the outside and also the holes and marking them with numbers. (and cutting out the holes in the cardboard and putting the water pump bolts in the cardboard one at a time as they are removed) By the way, I have always had good luck using fine sandpaper, Scotch Brite and single edge razor blades to clean the mating surfaces. Lastly, I used a ground down spacer that fit snuggly between the water pump and the block. That way, it supports the water pump flange from collapsing where that gap is at the top of the pump. Anybody ever try this? Kit
[This message has been edited by Kitskaboodle (edited 05-13-2024).]
Here's a link from when I replaced my water pump. Best advice, get a piece of cardboard, trace the outline of the new water pump. Poke the holes through. As you remove each bolt, place it in the cardboard in the correct place. This will help from guessing where the heck did this bolt come from when reassembling.
Maybe I missed it above but….. Can someone tell me exactly how many bolts go through coolant? In one of the threads, someone said that there are several bolts that go through coolant. I thought it was just one. Which bolts will require sealant before installation and exactly which specific bolts? Kit
You did. It was mentioned at least three times in my thread that I linked to, including the following...
I remember doing this in the parking lot of my apartment complex when I was 19, and for the life of me... managed to figure out where everything went without a map. I remember being incredibly frustrated... and while I remembered where most of the big ones went, it was mostly trial and error where I wouldn't realize it until a bolt bottomed out, or it didn't fit... haha....
EDIT: Also... now I know what that bracket was for... mine never came with instructions, and I just threw that in my tool box because it didn't really make any sense. I assumed that big "gap" where there's no spacer was so that I could get a big ass flat-head screw-driver in there and pry the water pump off.
[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 05-14-2024).]
Bad news… (and a word to the Fiero wise) I just got my box from Rockauto and the Gates 43092 water pump is made in China but even worse than that, the description at Rockauto says it has a cast iron impeller but in fact it’s clearly black plastic. 😧 I have already initiated a return with Rockauto but disappointingly I have to fork out $7.50 to return it back. Well, I guess that’s how the ball bounces. I do wish they would go back to the way there were in the old days to where you could actually talk to someone. So, I’m back to the drawing board on selecting a proper, quality water pump…… Kit
That's exactly why I use a local parts store, never Rock Auto, Amazon or FleaBay...... You may pay more for the parts locally, but you need to factor in down time from improper parts and return shipping costs.
That's exactly why I use a local parts store, never Rock Auto, Amazon or FleaBay...... You may pay more for the parts locally, but you need to factor in down time from improper parts and return shipping costs.
Especially for a common item like a water pump. That same water pump was used on dozens of other GM models in the 1980s, cars that sold in huge numbers. Any local parts store should be able to get it by the next day if not sooner.
Fun fact: Rock Auto used to have an all-new AC Delco pump available.... Apparently not any more.
Ya, I didn’t have much luck finding an AC Delco pump. Anyways, I visited a few Fiero threads on water pump quality and a few mentioned that Bosch made a good quality one. I was able to confirm that the Bosch pump did have a metal Impeller. Not sure if it’s the disc type or the exposed fin/propeller type. We will just have to wait until it arrives. As a reminder, the Rockauto website info for the Gates pump specifically said it had a metal impeller. It’s their website that has wrong info. By the way, another confusing aspect of all this is that many water pump brand descriptions don’t even bother to tell you what kind of impeller material is on their pump. Maybe it’s a secret? 😊
css9450: That same water pump was used on dozens of other GM models in the 1980s
If you want a 'classic' GM water pump with a METAL impeller, search these discontinued GM numbers:
14024302 (1980) 14024302 was replaced with 14029860 (1981) 14029860 was replaced with 14033483 (1982) and discontinued 1984
14033234 is interchangeable with 14054847 and 14054555 (1984)
14054555 was replaced with 14033483 (1986) 14033483 was replaced with 14101304 (1987) 14101304 is interchangeable with 10054510 (1988) 10054510 was replaced with 10120945 (1989) 10120945 was replaced with 10174860 (1993) 10174860 is interchangeable with 12482696 (2003) corresponding ACDelco p/n 251-621
To follow up….. Here is the water pump I ordered: Bosch p/n 98054. About $32.00 from EBay. For some weird reason, I was not able to find it on Amazon or Rockauto. Anyways, here are a few pics for you to peruse. Gasket surface quality is below standard as there were pits, tiny dings on a few edges, etc. I ended up sanding it with about 400-500 grit sandpaper. Otherwise, everything looks ok. Kit
Thanks Patrick. As for gasket sealant, I prefer the Permatex 2A non-hardening sealer. Strangely, they no longer call it number 2 but rather p/n 80018. Anyways, I’ve been using it for over 40 years and it’s rarely let me down. I’ve used the Aviation Form A Gasket but I found it’s too stringy, it’s messy unless you’re really careful and it doesn’t go on smoothly and evenly. (in my opinion) On a different note, I ordered Rodney’s timing cover hold down bracket. Still waiting for it in the mail and also my Fel-Pro gasket. Kit
On a different note, I ordered Rodney’s timing cover hold down bracket...
I was wondering why you were ordering Rodney's Timing Cover Tool when I see you have the timing cover clamp already there? Is it because the alternator bracket need not be removed with Rodney's device?
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 05-19-2024).]
Yes, that’s correct. I just got it in the mail today. My bracket was stainless and the hex bolt black. The orange one in the pic may have been the prototype? Anyways, I also got my water pump gasket in the mail also. I am extremely not happy with it!! First, they put it in a soft mailer, they folded it on half to get it in the envelope and lastly it’s not even a Fel-Pro gasket. They put a black paper “generic” water pump gasket in the mailer instead of the correct BLUE Fel-Pro gasket.🙁 I was on the phone with Amazon and complained about the people that work at that third party vendor that sent me the gasket. You got to be dumber than a mud fence to fold a gasket in half. Going to Autozone in the morning to get a proper gasket!
Ok, I went to the Zone and got this. (see pics) They listed the blue gasket pic and the actual Fel-Pro number but I got this instead. It cross references several numbers for other gasket makers too. And, it doesn’t say Fel-Pro anywhere on the bag. Oh well, at least the gasket quality and thickness is a little better than the thin, black, cheap ones that usually come in the box with the water pump. Since they were only $1.37, I grabbed all 3 that they had. That way, I will have one for my 86 GT when it’s water pump needs replacing and plus I’ll have a spare in case one gets damaged during installation. Kit
[This message has been edited by Kitskaboodle (edited 05-21-2024).]
Kit, you're much more driven than I am. I would've just used the supplied clamp, coated the supplied gasket with my favorite Permatex product, and called it a day.
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Originally posted by Kitskaboodle:
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 05-21-2024).]
Update: I’m about half way done. A few notes and comments…..,,,, I took out the plastic fender liner, rear wheel, Rodney’s tensioner, egr solenoid & bracket, oil pressure sender wiring plug, (or is it the water temp sender?) and then I had enough access. So far so good. Water pump came right off. Actually, the water pump pulley was more of a pain as those 4 bolts were really tight! Anyways, I did make a “mistake” as I wasn’t really paying attention. 🙁 What I did is I removed a bolt that had nothing to do with the water pump. If you’re looking at the front of the motor, there is a low profile Torx bolt that holds the timing indicator tube thingy in place. Well, directly above this Torx bolt is a 13mm (I think) bolt that holds the timing cover in place at this particular spot. Well, I loosened and removed it. Then, I realized my mistake and tightened it back down. The good news is I had already installed Rodney’s clamp before I removed any water pump bolts. I’m hoping and praying I didn’t screw up and break the timing cover seal because of this extra bolt I removed from the timing cover. 🙁 Ok, so here is a pic of the water pump i took off. I’m surprised that it’s a real GM pump. Notice the “GM” stamped on the impeller. Also, whoever installed this pump believed in using copious amounts of RTV on water pump gaskets! Kit
[This message has been edited by Kitskaboodle (edited 05-22-2024).]
...whoever installed this pump believed in using copious amounts of RTV on water pump gaskets!
Not a good idea. Excess RTV on the inside of the system can become "boogers" (as The Ogre likes to call them ) and potentially plug up internal passages. A thin coating of the proper sealant on each gasket surface is all it takes.
Well, there are other bolts holding the timing cover in place (or so I've been reminded by a couple of members who say the use of the clamp is unnecessary). As long as you weren't vigorously trying to pull the water pump off while that one incorrect bolt was removed, you should probably be okay... but I certainly don't know for sure.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 05-22-2024).]
Thanks Patrick. I forgot to mention that when I removed the timing cover bolt (and discovered my error) there were still (at that time) several water pump bolts that had yet to be removed. I replaced & re-tightened that bolt before I removed the remaining water pump bolts. Then, after the last wp bolts were removed, the water pump came off with only moderate rocking & pressure. Kit
Not yet done. First delay is that I decided to order a new lower passenger side coolant hose. Also, some new clamps. Was going to install the pump today but spent 4+ hours on bicycle repairs /adjustments for my grandchildrens bikes. I did do sone additional prep work on this project like taking carb cleaner and blowing out all the grease and crud from the block/ water pump bolt holes and I also cleaned up the water pump bolt threads as they were caked up with either gasket sealer, grease, dried coolant or anti-seize. Looks like it will get done wed and thurs. (I’m going to let the gasket sealer cure for a day before I fill it up with coolant.) Kit
[This message has been edited by Kitskaboodle (edited 05-27-2024).]
Not yet done. First delay is that I decided to order a new lower passenger side coolant hose. Also, some new clamps.
I replaced that hose also with my most recent water pump change. The hose Rodney sells fits perfectly, better than the ones that come from the parts store which are actually intended for use on various other vehicles (in other words, close but not exactly perfect).
The original factory-style hose clamps (with the tightening screw) on mine were so tightly seized due to rust I had to cut them off with a cutoff wheel in a Dremel. Hopefully yours cooperate a little better.
Not yet done. First delay is that I decided to order a new lower passenger side coolant hose. Also, some new clamps. Was going to install the pump today but spent 4+ hours on bicycle repairs /adjustments for my grandchildrens bikes. I did do sone additional prep work on this project like taking carb cleaner and blowing out all the grease and crud from the block/ water pump bolt holes and I also cleaned up the water pump bolt threads as they were caked up with either gasket sealer, grease, dried coolant or anti-seize. Looks like it will get done wed and thurs. (I’m going to let the gasket sealer cure for a day before I fill it up with coolant.) Kit
Just thought I'd mention this about the hose clamps... on my daughter's car, we're planning on using these types of clamps on ALL the hoses...
I don't know about that specific one, just the first example that game up... but stainless, chamfered edges to prevent cutting into the hose, and a more consistent pressure around the hose. I just think they look better, and likely seal better as well.
Do you guys put anything between the hose and the pipe it's attached to? I install them dry, but I'm thinking of possibly using some of the Permatex sealer adhesive. It dries quick and helps seal the metal so you don't get the hose effectively rusting to the flange.
Nice looking hose clamps you got there. I try (whenever possible) to use Ideal hose clamps as they are a good standard. As for putting on something between, I typically use a thin film of Mobil 1 grease as most new rubber hoses don’t go on that easy. Kit
It was mentioned at least three times in 
As long as you weren't vigorously trying to pull the water pump off while that one incorrect bolt was removed, you should probably be okay... but I certainly don't know for sure.
