Hi all. Brand new here but been reading a lot content here the past 6 months. I’ve recently and surprisingly to myself gone down the Fiero rabbit hole and I hope I’m here to stay awhile
I recently bought a re-bodied ‘88 Formula. No T Top or sunroof installed. I read here I believe, that for 1988 Pontiac made all the non sunroof cars framed up and ready for T Top installation. And that the “proof” of that is to look under the roof and see the indented contours of the roof panel. My 1988 has that feature - clear indents up in the roof headliner that outline T Top center supports.
So… is this true then? Was that a single final year manufacturing change ? I’m very much contemplating putting in T Tops as I would LOVE that open air feel experience. Thanks all! Excellent forum that I hope to be very active in.
Hi all. Brand new here but been reading a lot content here the past 6 months. I’ve recently and surprisingly to myself gone down the Fiero rabbit hole and I hope I’m here to stay awhile
I recently bought a re-bodied ‘88 Formula. No T Top or sunroof installed. I read here I believe, that for 1988 Pontiac made all the non sunroof cars framed up and ready for T Top installation. And that the “proof” of that is to look under the roof and see the indented contours of the roof panel. My 1988 has that feature - clear indents up in the roof headliner that outline T Top center supports.
So… is this true then? Was that a single final year manufacturing change ? I’m very much contemplating putting in T Tops as I would LOVE that open air feel experience. Thanks all! Excellent forum that I hope to be very active in.
So, yes and no.
First... welcome to the forum! And you 88 Formula is probably awesome. Is it a 5-Speed? Even better!
The Fiero frame was designed from the factory to incorporate cutouts for a sunroof, not TTOPs. All TTOPs were a custom job by a company called C&C. C&C stands for "Cars & Concepts" and they actually also did TTOPs for the Pontiac Grand Prix and Chevy Monte Carlo in the late 70s, and also for the Pontiac TransAm and Chevy Camaro during the height of the Smokey & the Bandit Craze when they were flying off the shelves. You had Fischer and Hurst (?) TTOPs, and then you had the C&C TTOPs which are very distinct in that they are totally squared off. Here is an example of a pretty rare 81 TransAm with C&C TTOPs:
Basically, the TTOP Fieros didn't come from the factory with TTOPs, they were shipped out from the factory to a nearby facility where the TTOPs were installed, transported back, and then shipped out with the other cars to the dealership that ordered it.
The contours in the headliner you're seeing are basically bump-outs for your head to give you a little bit more headroom. A lot of the sports cars did that back then as it gave room for really tall people, or if you had a racing helmet, etc...
But if you were to tear-out your headliner, you'd see this cutout:
If I'm not mistaken, there's a panel that goes in there to reinforce the hole, and it meshes with the roof and sunroof opening. The roof is hard to remove, only because the "A" pillars are glued down and break. Some people use piano wire to cut it free from the space frame. But you could effectively replace the roof panel and install a sunroof pretty easily. Either way, you could also still install T-TOPs if you found a set, plus the roof structure that you'd need. TTOP Fieros also come with a brace that attaches underneath the car since the space frame ends up being compromised.
If you'd like a sunroof, there's tons of Fiero parts cars with one that you could pull the roof and hardware off of... it'll directly install in your car without modification.
Thanks for your response So I am guessing or concluding then that all Fieros that had no sunroof have these indentations in the interior of the roof ? I guess I’m surprised that there is almost a center bar looking thick spot - but as you say maybe they only did that for extra height in the areas that heads might be only. So… no Fieros have smooth roof headliners of uniform thickness then? I have read a lot about the C & C aftermarket conversions. I’ve read about a guy who chopped out his hard roof and riveted in donor T frame (more like a sideways H) and then added in donor t tops and seals. And I’ve read hard (expensive) to find and especially good seals.
I’ve also read how it really compromises body stiffness. So not sure I want to chop thru it all and go that route. Maybe but not anytime soon if so.
I’m very much contemplating putting in T Tops as I would LOVE that open air feel experience.
You'd probably also have to learn to love water dripping onto your head... or if not onto your head, at least into the car. Seriously, T-Tops in a Fiero (and/or probably any car) are notorious for leaking. I had an opportunity to buy an Enterra Vipre, a car that I had lusted after for years, but decided against it as this particular one had T-Tops. I have no regrets over that decision.
What type of Fiero rebody do you have? Any photos you can upload? (The Upload Media tab is at the lower left of the posting box.)
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 08-15-2024).]
Thanks for your response So I am guessing or concluding then that all Fieros that had no sunroof have these indentations in the interior of the roof ? I guess I’m surprised that there is almost a center bar looking thick spot - but as you say maybe they only did that for extra height in the areas that heads might be only. So… no Fieros have smooth roof headliners of uniform thickness then? I have read a lot about the C & C aftermarket conversions. I’ve read about a guy who chopped out his hard roof and riveted in donor T frame (more like a sideways H) and then added in donor t tops and seals. And I’ve read hard (expensive) to find and especially good seals.
I’ve also read how it really compromises body stiffness. So not sure I want to chop thru it all and go that route. Maybe but not anytime soon if so.
Correct, all Fieros that were NOT originally equipped with a sunroof, have the two indentations in the ceiling... with what looks like a bar in the middle. It's merely an effect made by the headliner board, as if you remove it, there's no actual beam there. The only Fiero I've ever owned that didn't have a sunroof was an 85 Fiero GT, and that too had those head bumps in the headliner.
Another thing about the C&C TTOPs is that each car came with a certification, and a warning. it basically said that the frame had been compromised and no longer met the safety standards as laid out by the National Traffic Safety and Highway Administration. Most people tossed these of course... but it was something they legally had to do.
I think the TTOPs are cool, but I personaly wouldn't want to swap one in. If I really wanted TTOPs, I'd probably re-design the frame, personally. The rigidity of the space frame is what makes the Fiero so awesome in my opinion... not something you really want to compromise.
I’m very much contemplating putting in T Tops as I would LOVE that open air feel experience. Thanks all! Excellent forum that I hope to be very active in.
The roof panel is cut and a H shaped panel is riveted in place with a ton of large rivets.
They actually cut out the entire sun roof panel.
There is no under body brace. That was never part of the TTop design. Some Targa and convertibles did include a brace as the t bar keeps the car strong enough.
The TTop does have more cowl shake but that was even common on the trans am.
The head liners were designed for head room.
When cutting the top they would install braces on the doors and once the top is installed the remove the braces. It is not hats if you have the tools or know how yo jig up the cat do it remains straight.
As for crash disclaimer I never had one and never even heard of one. Not saying they did not exist but this is the first I heard of that in the 39 years of ownership. T top cars died due to higher crash standards.
Not the tops were first sold as dealer installed options from 1984 to 87. 88 the cars were done in Brighton MI at C&C for Pontiac but local C&C indtalkers still did installs till the early 90’s.
As for leaks as longs as the seals were done correctly and maintained they don’t leak. The key is yo adjust where the top deal meets the door seal. They can be adjusted. Mine are still dry.
There was nearly 8,000 kits made in total including the 88 cars. Sone kits were used for warranty work. So closer to 7k cars were converted. Some were kit cars too.
As for leaks as longs as the seals were done correctly and maintained they don’t leak. The key is yo adjust where the top deal meets the door seal. They can be adjusted. Mine are still dry.
I suspect that non-leaking T-Tops are a rarity. Here's a photo of the Enterra Vipre that I had mentioned earlier. There's a reason why it was parked under a canopy at this Fiero get-together. The long-time owner of it was a very experienced Fiero guy, and if he could've got that T-Top to stop leaking, I'm sure he would've done so at some point.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 08-16-2024).]
I suspect that The long-time owner of it was a very experienced Fiero guy, and if he could've got that T-Top to stop leaking, I'm sure he would've done so at some point.
You are Soooo correct, I do not proclaim to be the Fiero expert the locals see me as but I have experience for sure.
I did have a Florida 88 T-Top Fiero. I Loved that car, nothing better than having them tops out on a nice evening, it was a pussy magnet guaranteed. But it was an old car ( some 14 years old then ) I did buy every new old stock T-Top part I could get my hands on and it wasn't enough. Mine wasn't ' ragged' but it wasn't as perfect as T-Top seals need to be.
I adjusted, I fiddled to get those tops to be water tight. I thought i had it pretty good, could hose them down with a water hose, a pressure washer all around those top and no water inside. Great. But leave that car outside for a week in damp / foggy weather and then sit in the car and get a wet ass, took a number of years and I got fed up, could not live with that thing. It was a really tough choice to choose on selling the rust free 88 T-Top car and the 88 rust free Sunroof car, Deep down it wasn't a hard choice.
Some is gonna hate me, fair enough, anyone that has a leak free Fiero T-Top, it's a garage queen that mine could have been. but when it lives in a predomintily damp enviroment....
[This message has been edited by jelly2m8 (edited 08-17-2024).]
Not sure what the drama is about. I am sue some may leak but I do know not all do.
Mine is good and several others I know that have them are leak free. I’m going out today with a possibility of rain today.
I suspect that how well they seal may be due to who installed the kit. These were not all assembly line cars. Mine was done by a C&C installer. One guy did the job over two day.
When I got it back I had a leach but he had a seal wrong and once fixed it was good. I drove the car year round for several years and no issues.
There is no hate. It is what it is. While some might leak most that I have encountered don’t.
The seal design is one that if installed there is no way to have water come in on the top side.
The main area of attention is where the top and car seals meet. Get them tight and the window adjusted right they work.
Many cars todsy have dried out and damaged seals. It may be amazing those do not leak more than they do.
I believe you may have issues but trust me not all do.
I would add that my C&C TTOPs on my 81 TransAm, never leaked. The pictures above are of my car. This is not my backyard picture... haha... this was what the car looked like when I first bought it, in the previous owner's back yard. I went through a pretty detailed restoration (up to a point) and then ended up selling the car when my daughter was born.
Anyway... the C&C TTOPs I had were considered to be a better TTOP design than Fischer or the Hurst designed TTOPs that the other TransAms and Camaros came with. It never leaked. The large square designed panels allowed the water to go into a catch tray which then poured it down the outside of the window. If the actual rubber seals between the glass and the frame were bad though, they would leak.
Many original TTopS had the seals on the roof top. It would get damaged and often they did not seal well.
The C&C style like the Fiero put the seal on the frame and it held up better and if glued in right would not let water in.
Some Inwould expect we’re not installed well and adjusted right. No they are not simple to adjust.
The Corvettes and Hurst were the reverse like seal and most leaked from day one. The Corvette could opened with a blow to the right spot.
The weakest spot on C&C is the plastic caps. If broken worn and loose you can leak. I knew early they were a problem and kept extra sets. Some one made a softer set I bought and yet to try yet.
Why do you have such a problem with a couple of us simply warning a new member about the very real and potential pitfalls of having T-Tops? Of course there are going to be vehicles with T-Tops that don't leak... great! However, that's of little consolation to the owners of T-Top equipped cars who cannot get their T-Tops to stop leaking. It's a major hindrance to be owning such a vehicle if living in a wet climate.
Not sure what the drama is about. I am sue some may leak but I do know not all do.
The weakest spot on C&C is the plastic caps. If broken worn and loose you can leak. I knew early they were a problem and kept extra sets.
There is no hate and Drama our friend. it's simply a fact. Old cars with un obtainable water seals that need them due to age / past history. Alot of us are not privy to be able to get prime examples of, those that do, we are super happy you can.
Years ago I posted a long term solution of broken plastic end caps, it's still searchable on the forums, the problem 35+ years later is the non- existent supply of new chassis seals. I will still stand by that the majority of T-Top Fiero's this day and age will leak if left out in the elements.
Honest question for you, does your T-top car live inside a shelter, or does it live outside in the elements. keep in mind not everyone has the luxury of keeps car's under a roof. That's a simple fact of life.
[This message has been edited by jelly2m8 (edited 08-18-2024).]
Look part if buying a car is yo make sure of the condition.
If buying a convertible is the hop good and non leaking. The same applies to TTop. Check them out run water if you are willing to buy. If they leak walk away.
The truth is these tops did not leak if and when installed new. If there is seal damage and part damage walk away.
This is just another case where you should buy the best car you can. Restoration of a Fiero often cost more than its value if you are going for original. Parts are getting harder to find and many never will be reproduced. A hood paint is more than a 4 cylinders value anymore.
While the Fiero is cheap in terms of the car hobby it is still not cheap if done right. Sadly many are priced out of the hobby anymore. Many even restoring GTO’s take a loss. Best to buy a finished or clean original car.
Anyways back to my point. You two made it sound as if they all leak. No they don’t. Some do many don’t just do your diligence when buying to access condition. To find a hood one may take more time but it is not impossible.
I had a Formula with T-tops. I don't remember any serious leaks. Any that I found were easily repairable.
But I found T-tops to be a pain in the ass, in general. This was true of my Formula, as well as my 88 Firebird. If you want the "experience", you need to remove and store the panels. Then, if you get caught in a sudden rain squall, you're likely gonna get wet, unless you can find a convenient bridge or awning to park under. With a sunroof, all you have to do is reach up and "pop" the latch, to raise it. Closing it is just as easy. You can remove it if you want, but I seldom completely remove mine.
Not trying to talk you out of T-tops. They do have their allure. But do go in with eyes wide open.
Some do (leak) many don’t just do your diligence when buying to access condition. To find a hood one may take more time but it is not impossible.
The OP was expressing interest in installing T-Tops in a Fiero re-body that doesn't have them. So not only would he need to track down the basic T-Top hardware required (readily available I'm sure ), but he'd also have to hope that after going through all that trouble that the T-Tops wouldn't leak. All I can say is good luck!
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 08-18-2024).]
Gonna chime in here one last time, no Quotes, you both know who I am addressing.
Again I will ask, Does Your Fiero, I am sure it is immaculate and I would love to own it I'm a bit jealous to be honest, but I respect it.
Does it get the Full environment experience? You have not answered that question.
To the other, You are realistic, anyone at this day and age, over a quarter century later, can you go out and buy a bonified guaranteed leak free Fiero, or still buy every seal or part that it would require?
I am not saying leak free T-Top Fiero's do not exist, they do, but they are unicorns.
Prove me wrong, bring your T-top here to Atlantic Canada where it is predominantly Damp. One may have a leak free T-Top Fiero and I am super happy for you, I am jealous. But the reality of it is here in 2024 and beyond, having a T-Top Fiero is a ticking time bomb.
[This message has been edited by jelly2m8 (edited 08-19-2024).]
Prove me wrong, bring your T-top here to Atlantic Canada
Daaaymn son... man throws down the gauntlet and throws the chair!!!
(If I can be honest, on my 81 TransAm, literally the only thing that did not leak were the C&C ttops. Every single other part of the car leaked... A-pillar, quarter panel seals, rear window seal. Even the HVAC box leaked water from the cowl into the floor boards.
Gonna chime in here one last time, no Quotes, you both know who I am addressing.
Again I will ask, Does Your Fiero, I am sure it is immaculate and I would love to own it I'm a bit jealous to be honest, but I respect it.
Does it get the Full environment experience? You have not answered that question.
To the other, You are realistic, anyone at this day and age, over a quarter century later, can you go out and buy a bonified guaranteed leak free Fiero, or still buy every seal or part that it would require?
I am not saying leak free T-Top Fiero's do not exist, they do, but they are unicorns.
Prove me wrong, bring your T-top here to Atlantic Canada where it is predominantly Damp. One may have a leak free T-Top Fiero and I am super happy for you, I am jealous. But the reality of it is here in 2024 and beyond, having a T-Top Fiero is a ticking time bomb.
My car today is not a daily driver but in the 80’s it was. It saw snow , rain, ice etc. it was stored outside for a number of years.
All are not leak proof but they are not rare as unicorns.
The difference is how they were treated. The real key is to keep the seals moist just as you would with any sun roof and convertible.
Since many Fiero T tops were cared for we see more dry ones than other models. Our club had several and we never saw leak issues.
Many who claim leaks are people who owned one bad one or never even owned one.
Note if I get caught in the rain or wash no leaks today on original seals.
Even my C5 I just got caught in 2” of rain in 30 min and no leaks. Again seal care matters.
Also if you have something to say be direct. We are adults here.
[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 08-22-2024).]
That seat is pristine!!! So is the rest of the car... no sun damage to the interior panels either.
When I first got my Fiero back in 1996... the interior looked like that too... I mean, it was an 87, so it looked different, but that nice (ignoring of course the shredded seat bolster on the driver's side that I can just make out). I managed to keep my Fiero seats in every car pristine, but that's because I kept canvas "Fiero" seat covers on them. I think they originally came from JC Whitney, but they are pretty awesome... even if slightly faded.
I keep thinking what I'm going to do to get my interior back into shape again. I've dramatically improved my woodworking skills since I was in my 20s... now that I've restored three homes top to bottom. So, I should be able to make a wood mold to house the center console so I can do the gorilla glue trick...
[B]Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work] If I'm not mistaken, there's a panel that goes in there to reinforce the hole, and it meshes with the roof and sunroof opening.
That seat is pristine!!! So is the rest of the car... no sun damage to the interior panels either.
Keep in mind that 's just an image I found online... but having said that, I do have pristine '84 seats (just like in the image) installed in my Formula.
wow. Interesting discussion. I figured it could be polarizing.
So, the car I bought is immaculate. It's a garage queen and so far has been tucked into a garage since the day I bought it. I did have to for the most part pay up for this car. I bought it because I learned about this particular re-body and then hunted intensely until I found this car.
I would LOVE the T Top experience. I'm not sure I want to risk this body and probably take on the looser driving experience that must follow with the body flex / frame.
The rebody, I'll try to post a pic at some point I only have lousy garage shots. But the easiest hint is it should have neither a T Top nor a hard top (IMO) but a Targa (but I know that's not happening).
Interesting thread. I have a Fiero convertible project just about done, I just wonder how that top will hold up in inclement weather as compared to the T-Top. It is an old kit made by the defunct California Convertible Company. Out there they don't have many rain storms so if it doesn't leak that would be great. The good news is that the top uses commonly available weather stripping on the windshield top side.
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Interesting thread. I have a Fiero convertible project just about done, I just wonder how that top will hold up in inclement weather as compared to the T-Top. It is an old kit made by the defunct California Convertible Company. Out there they don't have many rain storms so if it doesn't leak that would be great. The good news is that the top uses commonly available weather stripping on the windshield top side.
Convertible tops depend on design and quality of material.
My C5 is a convertible. GM did an incredible job on the design. It speaks with tension and just two latches.
I was caught in rain recently 2 inches in 45 min and it never leaked a drop. The seals are good and the top is cloth and has held up well.
Indoor storage and care for convertibles is key to. .
Interesting thread. I have a Fiero convertible project just about done, I just wonder how that top will hold up in inclement weather as compared to the T-Top. It is an old kit made by the defunct California Convertible Company. Out there they don't have many rain storms so if it doesn't leak that would be great. The good news is that the top uses commonly available weather stripping on the windshield top side.
What kind of reinforcing has been done to the space frame?
), but he'd also have to hope that after going through all that trouble that the T-Tops wouldn't leak. All I can say is good luck!
