I've said it before, but it's worth repeating: one of the main reasons I started PFF back in 1999 was to create a more welcoming space for people to ask questions without feeling intimidated or judged. At that time, the few online sources available were highly over-moderated, and the atmosphere often felt stifling. People were forced to tiptoe around the “almighty” moderators, often scared to ask questions for fear of getting shut down by the regulars. Responses like “Did you use the search?”, “Have you done any research?”, or even “If you have to ask that, you shouldn’t be working on a car” were common, and it frustrated me immensely.
Unfortunately, this kind of treatment still exists on many forums and Q&A sites today. In fact, it’s a big reason I’ve always felt uneasy with platforms like Stack Exchange. Here's a site supposedly designed for IT professionals—yet if you dare to ask a question that’s been touched on before, you’re practically roasted. IT evolves rapidly, and solutions that were effective six months ago might be outdated today. But if you bring up a topic that’s been previously discussed, no one cares about those nuances; they just hit you with “Google it” or “Do some research!” Yesterday, I made the mistake of asking a question on Server Fault (one of the Stack Exchange sites) after spending two days researching and finding nothing helpful. The only responses I received were snarky comments like “Have you ever heard of Google?”—but none offered an actual answer to my problem.
Another thing that drives me up the wall on these forums is the tendency to close questions if a similar topic has been discussed before, even if it’s buried in a thread that started a decade ago with hundreds of pages and thousands of posts. Expecting someone to wade through that, hoping for something relevant to their specific issue, is simply unreasonable.
So, once again, I want to emphasize my philosophy here at PFF: if a member—new or experienced—asks a question that’s been asked before, do not respond with “use the search.” Just don’t. Remember, we were all beginners once, and it’s easy to feel overwhelmed by the sheer volume of information on the internet or even here on PFF. Why expect someone to waste hours (or even days) sifting through search results when a quick, friendly answer here could help someone move forward? Plus, the best solutions evolve over time, as technology changes or parts become obsolete, which makes it perfectly reasonable to start a new thread on an old topic.
If you do know of an existing thread that might help, try a friendly response like: “Hey! The info in [this thread] is still pretty relevant. You might find it helpful, but feel free to ask more questions here if you need to—happy to help!” See? That’s far more welcoming than “Did you even search? I found [this thread] in 20 seconds.”
To sum up: This is PFF. Here, dumb questions don't exist—only unhelpful answers. If you feel the urge to respond with “use the search” or anything that might belittle the original poster, don't. Just… Don’t. Let’s keep this a place where people feel safe to learn and share, no matter where they are on their journey.
Hear, hear fellow Fiero brother! I really appreciate the Forum. I am an original owner of an '88 GT and as well, another one I restored myself. I know quite a bit about the '88s but still make dumb mistakes. Many thanks to Olejoedad, Patrick and Vintage Nut that have straightened me out on some simple issues like the fuel pump relay and such. They showed me diagrams and photos of what I needed without any "use the search" vitriol. Really appreciate the kind help and hope it continues until these cars no longer exist! Thank you all
I've run into exactly those same issues on those same sites. Reddit's /r/SysAdmin does days where they specifically welcome "stupid" questions, and I got a lot of good input from them. Admittedly, it's been 5-6 years since I posted anything there, but you might give them a shot
I very much appreciate how welcoming this site is. What brought me here isn't just my first Fiero, it's my first project car. Learning something new that's this involved in my 40s isn't easy, and being able to be here and contribute without judgment has been fantastic. Guru giving me positive feedback on my suspension plans still sits with me and gives me confidence, as does the welcome that everyone here has given me-all of whom it seems are CONSIDERABLY better at this than me. Hell, I don't know if I could come up with a better way to make working on a Fiero approachable than Todd's videos with his daughter.
You all win in my book, and only partially because of your impeccable taste in automobiles.
"Hon? Do you know where the can opener is?" "Have you looked?" "It's not in the drawer..." "Yes but have you searched the house?" "Well, no..." "I'm not going to tell you where the can opener is before you have showed some effort to look for it first!" "Just tell me where it is!" "No! Besides, a few months back our daughter asked the exact same question." "So?" "So I'm not going to repeat myself." "I asked her and she said it was in the drawer, but it no longer is!" "Then go look for it elsewhere!" "Why? Just tell me where it is!" "No! And I don't like your attitude. I have filed for a divorce and you are out of here!" "Wait... What?"
Originally posted by Cliff Pennock: “If you have to ask that, you shouldn’t be working on a car”
This... this is my Marty McFly "chicken" trigger. There is nothing I hate more than when I go on a message board, ask some questions, and then I'm immediately lambasted with comments from the more experienced members who make it seem like rebuilding a carburetor or replacing a fuel pump is somehow similar to the skill needed for brain surgery... and they basically tell me I can't do it, not to even try, and that I should take it somewhere. And at that point, everyone else stops responding because they assume you'll just take it to a shop. So then you have to fight with them and try to convince them that you are capable of doing things, blah blah... and then it goes on and on, when really all you wanted to know was just how to do "X"...
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Originally posted by Cliff Pennock:
Unfortunately, this kind of treatment still exists on many forums and Q&A sites today. In fact, it’s a big reason I’ve always felt uneasy with platforms like Stack Exchange. Here's a site supposedly designed for IT professionals—yet if you dare to ask a question that’s been touched on before, you’re practically roasted. IT evolves rapidly, and solutions that were effective six months ago might be outdated today. But if you bring up a topic that’s been previously discussed, no one cares about those nuances; they just hit you with “Google it” or “Do some research!” Yesterday, I made the mistake of asking a question on Server Fault (one of the Stack Exchange sites) after spending two days researching and finding nothing helpful. The only responses I received were snarky comments like “Have you ever heard of Google?”—but none offered an actual answer to my problem.
I think you talked about this before somewhere, but it's the exact same experience I had with Stack Exchange the last time I used it. I used to use it ALL THE TIME back in 1998-2003 or something... and then I guess I didn't use it for a while... but came back a few years later just to see... and my question was constantly deleted. If I didn't ask it "just right," or the moderator felt that the solution could be found elsewhere, they just locked it. It was incredibly frustrating. There's a reason why no one ever uses Stack Exchange anymore. It's so completely ridiculous. Man... it gets me going just thinking about it. I wasted so much time just TRYING to get my question to not get wiped out, and I had like 4 or 5 moderators who were going on about it, and then you had to appeal the question, and they would respond even more rudely in the response, it was like... this is why no one uses this **** ...
I think perhaps there could be a main sticky with a video on how to use the search. It seems easy for us who have been on forums for years but touching on basics might help new comers. It helps when you’re really specific as to what the issue is. Not just a “ brakes are bad” search…….a little simplified but you get the point
There will always be these kind of people. Those do it yourself. But some people see a question not so much as a question but an opportunity. A chance to bond over a common ground, to give feedback even if it's the same thing that has been posted over an over. It's not about the question but the chance to grow the community, or perhaps just a link.
Originally posted by Jake_Dragon: Sorry, just a stab at some humor.
There will always be these kind of people. Those do it yourself. But some people see a question not so much as a question but an opportunity. A chance to bond over a common ground, to give feedback even if it's the same thing that has been posted over an over. It's not about the question but the chance to grow the community, or perhaps just a link.
I agree... for whatever it's worth to me, I don't mind when people make posts asking the same question over and over. Like you, I view it as an opportunity to welcome someone into the fold, and help grow their interest.
If I had to guess, I think some people are more process oriented... almost like it's a personality type difference, and they see these duplicate questions as perhaps "crowding the database" or watering the forum down with multiple responses when perhaps there might already be one or two spectacular posts that coherently answer the question better than anyone else can at that time. But I don't really see this as a database (though I recognize that it is), but I see it more as a place for conversation... a room that you can go into where there's a lot of experienced people hanging out. Unlike something such as Discord or IRC... you can pop in any time and continue from where you left off.
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: If I had to guess, I think some people are more process oriented... almost like it's a personality type difference, and they see these duplicate questions as perhaps "crowding the database" or watering the forum down with multiple responses when perhaps there might already be one or two spectacular posts that coherently answer the question better than anyone else can at that time.
This describes how I see things.
To add more on this, I expect someone to spend at least one hour of searching and doing their homework, before they expect me to spend an hour of my time formulating an answer.
Yes, sometimes it can take me an hour or more to answer a complex question.
I’m not motivated to help someone who doesn’t try to help themselves first.
I’m not motivated to help someone who doesn’t try to help themselves first.
That's exactly how I feel.
I understand what Cliff has stated about making new members feel welcome... but nothing turns me off more than a sense of entitlement from anyone who expects other people to spend time supplying answers to basic questions that can easily be found online with a minimum of effort. When people are spoiled in this manner, it's not uncommon for them to just continue asking questions about the most basic things... and to top it off, they then often don't even supply an acknowledgement (let alone a "thanks") before they start another thread about yet another basic question.
I'm not ashamed to admit hat I occasionally suggest to someone new here to use the Search function. First of all, it brings to their attention that there is a Search function at PFF (with 25 years worth of invaluable information), and secondly, I usually do it in the following manner. If for example someone is having trouble with their clutch not properly disengaging (and how often have we seen that!), I'll suggest that they use the Search function. When they click on my link, not only does it take them to the Search page, but they can also see what search parameters I used, and in this case, that there are potentially 65 threads of helpful info to browse through.
If the person I've addressed needs further clarification after they've put in some effort themselves, I'm only too pleased to offer more assistance.
So, I totally understand you two... I get it, and I'm quite a bit like this as well. But the psychologically-curious side of me views it more as an introduction to the forum. Many people post on the forum and are "desperate." Also... we're a little bit older, and a lot of the people who come on here have no idea how (or even a thought) to use the search function. My daughter doesn't even use Pennock's Fiero Forum because it's not Instagram, SnapChat, Discord, etc. But she does READ some of the posts often times. Many younger people just aren't familiar with the message board format. To them, it's like playing Adventure on an Atari 2600 when you have Genshin Impact on a top of the line game system with an RTX 9000 whatever.
So... when people DO come onto Pennocks, I agree that even though answering repeat questions is tiresome and obnoxious, it's also an introduction and an opportunity to welcome these people into the Fiero community. Tell them to use the search and / or get angsty with them, and they'll never come back. This hurts Cliff directly because that's one less potential person to join the forum, and less ad-revenue. So think of Cliff when you want to say.. "F-You, you little **** ... use the search engine! Your EGR tube is cracked, duh!!!" haha...
So think of Cliff when you want to say.. "F-You, you little **** ... use the search engine!"
Come on Todd, I know you're joking around... but that's nowhere close to what I do or what I suggest anyone else does.
I enjoy giving people a hand, but I refuse to be taken advantage of... by anyone... and that includes new people (of any age) here on the forum. I'll point them in the right direction, and if they're still struggling after demonstrating they've made an effort, I'll do what I can to help.
I think back to when I was 17 years old, and apprenticing to be a mechanic. The old guys in the shop were helpful, but definitely did not baby me. The head mechanic was a WWII vet, toughened up from harsh action in Europe, and was definitely old-school. He taught me well, and no doubt a bit of his demeanor is reflected in how I approach someone who's new to working on their Fiero. (More on this Here.)
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 11-11-2024).]
The effort I put into answering questions is entirely independent of how much effort the person asking has put in himself. I guess that's where I differ from some of you. To me, it simply doesn’t matter if someone hasn’t yet tried to find the answer themselves; if it's a question I can answer, I will.
Besides, how do you know how much effort someone has put into it? I've had many times on other forums where people were unwilling to help only because they assumed I had not investigated the question at hand. While I had. For many, many days. And it was simply because I didn't know the proper terms for searching that I had not found an answer yet. Not because of a lack of effort.
No one is forcing anyone to respond, so I don’t see why anyone would feel frustrated by the "need" to put effort into answering. Responding here is completely voluntary - there’s no requirement to contribute. So why let something that’s optional cause you frustration?
If all you intend to say is, "use the search", I’d genuinely prefer you say nothing at all. If a question goes unanswered, the person will likely turn to searching for an answer themselves - and will still feel comfortable to ask other questions without the worry of discouraging replies.
Originally posted by Cliff Pennock: To sum up: This is PFF. Here, dumb questions don't exist—only unhelpful answers. If you feel the urge to respond with “use the search” or anything that might belittle the original poster, don't. Just… Don’t. Let’s keep this a place where people feel safe to learn and share, no matter where they are on their journey.
i agree 100%. thanks for saying it, Cliff
------------------ Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.
Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.
I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 3800SC, 4-wheel drifts are fun!
Come on Todd, I know you're joking around... but that's nowhere close to what I do or what I suggest anyone else does.
I enjoy giving people a hand, but I refuse to be taken advantage of... by anyone... and that includes new people (of any age) here on the forum. I'll point them in the right direction, and if they're still struggling after demonstrating they've made an effort, I'll do what I can to help.
To be clear, that comment was in general to everyone, it was not specifically focused to you, even though I responded to both you and PMBrunelle. I was just being silly, and it was in general. And I do get where you're coming from... it's the whole, "teach a man to fish" kind of thing, rather than getting them fish.
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Originally posted by richard in nc: i have found if you google the question it will often take you to the answer here on pennocks.
Yeah, definitely this... the PFF search works well for some things, but sometimes the Google search takes me directly to what I'm looking for also.
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Originally posted by Cliff Pennock: Besides, how do you know how much effort someone has put into it? I've had many times on other forums where people were unwilling to help only because they assumed I had not investigated the question at hand. While I had. For many, many days. And it was simply because I didn't know the proper terms for searching that I had not found an answer yet. Not because of a lack of effort.
I think this is a really important distinction. We can't know and maybe won't ever know what the person is thinking / feeling at the time when they make their post. It might be pure inquisitiveness, or maybe they're beyond frustration. The way we respond, either welcoming, or negatively, can directly affect the future of that individual on the message forum. It may open new doors for them, or further frustrate them to the point where they send the car off to the junkyard (we've seen this too).
I don't want to be a hypocrite, so I'll admit I haven't always been the best at this. There have been a couple of times where the person is giving us an attitude, and I'll give one back... haha...
To me, it simply doesn’t matter if someone hasn’t yet tried to find the answer themselves; if it's a question I can answer, I will.
That may work for you, Cliff... but I'm sorry, I personally find that statement to be rather impractical. If PFF members with a lot of knowledge were to follow that to a tee, they'd eventually be burnt out and of no use to anyone.
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Originally posted by Cliff Pennock:
Besides, how do you know how much effort someone has put into it?
Asking questions isn't a one way street. I often ask the new member for some details either about their problem or about their abilities. Depending on their response, I then can judge what they may need or not need to be told. Or I can decide I don't wish to proceed with them at all. No matter what, there's no need for anyone to be rude or unwelcoming.
quote
Originally posted by Cliff Pennock:
No one is forcing anyone to respond, so I don’t see why anyone would feel frustrated by the "need" to put effort into answering. Responding here is completely voluntary - there’s no requirement to contribute. So why let something that’s optional cause you frustration?
Exactly, no one is forcing me to say/do anything. Therefore, I don't experience this "frustration" you're referring to.
I've said this before, but I'll say it again... I enjoy helping people out, and I've certainly done so (along with many many other knowledgeable PFF members over the decades), but I'm not here to be taken advantage of. Maybe that's why I've lasted this long at PFF. I don't burn myself out trying to help individuals who lack the desire to help themselves.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 11-11-2024).]
I definitely think there's a middle ground to this, because both Cliff and Patrick make great points (and everyone has been mighty respectful).
While Cliffs well-meaning idealism of always answer with no, well, chastisement (lets call it what it is) comes from a good place, and it creates a welcoming environment for new users. It can (can not will) lead to burnout in some of the forums more experienced denizens. Getting to a point where, how do I bleed my radiator is asked 3 times a week is going to end up more harmful than helpful when people stop answering (don't say anything at all rule)
On Patrick's side, while coming off a bit as a slightly grumpy old man (I mean that in a nice way, you personally have helped me a lot), does keep some order as far as repetitive posting (not stupid questions, just repetitive) Patrick does normally try to ascertain a lot of context to the poster, problem and experience so I wont ever say he's been a whiney one when its comes to using the search function.
My 2c would be to answer the question and politely inform them of the usage of the search function and how versatile it actually is. As a younger user, a relatively legacy website such as Pennock's (in terms of design, its very well maintained) is not one you'd expect to find a robust internal search engine. Pennocks search is fantastic and alot of new members genuinely dont even look because they expect it to be crap.
Simply my opinion, however Cliff's house Cliff's rules.
