Would it be emotionally illegal if I was to take a 1986 Pontiac Sunbird Turbo convertible with perfect paint (which is like an 8 out of 10 in terms of condition)... pull the engine so I can drop it into a Fiero, and then sell the Sunbird Turbo body back on eBay or junk it?
Will I go to hell? That is the question... and will my friends and peers look down on me?
Would it be emotionally illegal if I was to take a 1986 Pontiac Sunbird Turbo convertible with perfect paint (which is like an 8 out of 10 in terms of condition)... pull the engine so I can drop it into a Fiero, and then sell the Sunbird Turbo body back on eBay or junk it?
Will I go to hell? That is the question... and will my friends and peers look down on me?
I couldn't care to much, some people would, the real question is, what Fiero? A.J.s is sticking with the Duke right? Your 87 is getting a 3.4l stock looking, so what, getting another Fiero?
If you were, and that was the plan, I'd get the sunbird, have fun with it, finish A.J.'s, start/finish your 87, then get another and do the swap, sell the sunbird parts.
I couldn't care to much, some people would, the real question is, what Fiero? A.J.s is sticking with the Duke right? Your 87 is getting a 3.4l stock looking, so what, getting another Fiero?
If you were, and that was the plan, I'd get the sunbird, have fun with it, finish A.J.'s, start/finish your 87, then get another and do the swap, sell the sunbird parts.
You're a smart man for sure... this sounds like an awesome plan.
I would buy the Sunbird just to have that cool motor. Then when you're ready with another Fiero, see how much of the entire car could be transplanted like the dash, gauges, interior, etc.
I would buy the Sunbird just to have that cool motor. Then when you're ready with another Fiero, see how much of the entire car could be transplanted like the dash, gauges, interior, etc.
I'm definitely thinking about it. The car I'm looking at, they basically want shy of $6,000. But I can get it for less. I was looking at it on another site (same car) and the undercarriage in the rear is a little rusty. It's also missing some of the trim, and the passenger seat is torn, oddly enough. Really though, the only thing I want from it is the engine and ECM / engine wiring harness.
But I went looking at these cars... and the ~1987 Sunbird Hatchback Turbo GT is actually pretty awesome. I don't know what happened to these cars... but they are no where to be found. Like... all of these cars have been totally crushed. I'm sure there's a few... but far, far fewer Sunbird GTs were saved than Fieros from what I can see. I mean, there are dozens of Fieros for sale on eBay... people clearly save these cars... but the Sunbirds, it seems like these cars were used, abused, and thrown away.
It seems that everyone saved the convertible ones for some reason... the only Sunbirds of any condition for sale, are all convertibles. The one I'm looking at (just interested me) is the Hatchback GT... it actually looks super cool... but I can't find any for sale or even recent pictures of someone who owned one. I've found a couple of really beat up looking ones in pictures from people's backyards... but they weren't GTs... etc. Not that I want to get into it... but thought they were kind of cool: https://www.webcarstory.com/voiture.php?id=33956
(in the link, those aren't even the GT ones)
Seems the better motor is the 2.0 Turbo from the 1989+ model year... so I may pass on that Convertible. Or I should just stop looking at cars for sale and finish up other projects... haha...
Hi, is that 86 the one on Hemmings for $5995? It is cool and I've thought about that engine as a swap many times. After engine & trans removal, not sure how much you could get for the left over bones. I test drove an 88 Grand Am with that engine, it was pretty spunky. Also, looking at the pictures in Hemmings, I'm thinking the black paint on the hood might be sun damaged. If you have the time & $, why not?
[This message has been edited by MarkS (edited 01-13-2025).]
Hi, is that 86 the one on Hemmings for $5995? It is cool and I've thought about that engine as a swap many times. After engine & trans removal, not sure how much you could get for the left over bones. I test drove an 88 Grand Am with that engine, it was pretty spunky. Also, looking at the pictures in Hemmings, I'm thinking the black paint on the hood might be sun damaged. If you have the time & $, why not?
Yeah, I assume it's the same one. It's also on ClassicCars, eBay, and another website.
Man I liked a lot of Pontiacs over the years, I wanna say I saw 1 or 2 laterer year models not that long ago at a salvage yard. If you got the budget, space and time just have some fun with it and experience what differences it has to others. After that if you still want to put it in a Fiero freshen it and go from there.
Years ago i had a T1000 that beat a pos diplomat up a hill with ac on back when these cars weren't that old. To top that a person I worked with might have had one of these but his wouldn't start when it was -20 but mine did and he couldn't believe it.
Todd, one time the oil field was slow. I got a job at an auto repair shop, with a lot of experience and knowledge. True professionals with ASE certifications. I had to know something to get the job.
They had the basically the same car, also a convertable needing repair. Needing work. Been there for a long time. They told me it was the "shop whore" which everyone had their hands on, trying to fix it. They wanted me to work on it.
I did not know what to do as I was just a back yard mechanic. I fixed it. Though by doing what they told me to do.
The engine is problematic and hard to work on, in frame.
Todd, one time the oil field was slow. I got a job at an auto repair shop, with a lot of experience and knowledge. True professionals with ASE certifications. I had to know something to get the job.
They had the basically the same car, also a convertable needing repair. Needing work. Been there for a long time. They told me it was the "shop whore" which everyone had their hands on, trying to fix it. They wanted me to work on it.
I did not know what to do as I was just a back yard mechanic. I fixed it. Though by doing what they told me to do.
The engine is problematic and hard to work on, in frame.
Yeah, I'm sure it is... but it's still a hot little motor, especially the 2.0L version, which is basically identical, but improved slightly.
What I really want is one of these guys...
... and unfortunately, there are so few of them left, that I literally cannot find pictures of them anywhere that aren't stock photos, or really old pictures. But here is a picture of the rear-end (non-GT... but imagine this with the GT ground effects and treatment) ...
Don't judge me... you know this car is cool. I'd want one with all the ground effects and fancy stuff that the 1987 came with.
This is the convertible one... no one needs this in a convertible, it makes no sense. It needs to be in a hatchback:
The turbo Sunbird engine at only 165 HP is uninspiring. For the work involved you could have about the same horsepower as the N/A 3.4L P/R engine. Its nearly a bolt in swap and FAR less work . Also in California they do not appreciate engine swaps very much bout the 3.4L appearance is the same as the 2.8L.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Wouldn't it look cool in a Fiero? You know you want it!
Posted just because I had the picture handy on the computer (and to throw more fuel on Todd's enthusiasm).
Hahah... you know what totally kills me though?
When installed in the Fiero, the valve covers and Intake plenum are backwards. They're still facing the front (of course) as if you were looking at them from the front of the car. I've questioned whether or not they could be reversed somehow, but I have to assume that if that was the case, others who have swapped them in, would have done that. I'm not hugely OCD by any means, but that would definitely irk me.
Full disclosure... I've been looking at a lot of cars... questioning whether I should buy them. But the one thing I've realized more and more is that cars today absolutely suck. The engineering is fantastic, don't get me wrong, but the aesthetics are horrible... and it's all because of the NHTSA's massive regulatory body (which happens a lot from insurance company lobbying). The biggest one being the 60% rule, which mandates that a car's chassis / body needs to be within 60% of the total height of the car, which in turn means that every car WILL have an enormous ass... or huge C-pillars. It's all to protect against crashes occurring from large pick-up trucks... which incidentally are not regulated anywhere near the same as cars are... because of the commercial lobby.
It's not only unfair, but it's absolutely killing the automotive industry. Car companies have to do things that are wildly aesthetically deceptive to make it seem like the car doesn't appear the way it actually is. The current body style of Mustang is a perfect example of a car that's worked it's ass off to maintain the original lines, while maintaining that 60% regulation. They raised the hood of the car, and raised the rear of the car, in sequence, so that you could get a relatively straight body-line (which is traditional for Mustangs).
It just bums me out.
I even found for $5k, a 2004 Pontiac Grand Am GT RAM-AIR, with the 3400 V6, which is also pretty bad-ass. It's in fire red, black interior, with all the options including the sunroof. And I think to myself... I wanted one of those so bad back then, but I settled for a 1997 GrandAm to save money.
Cars just suck so bad today... they all look like **** . Literally, the overwhelming vast majority of cars today look like a Buick anything. Like, I don't want to be a pessimist, but let's look at Buick. They have four cars this model year. The Envista, Encore, Envision, and some other Ensomething. It's all the same car. Like... GM literally spent millions and millions of dollars basically designing another car that's quite literally the same thing as the other cars from the company. I **** you not... aside from the fact that they are dimensionally 4 sizes (compact, small, mid-size, crossover), they're all the same **** , and if you gave them all the same front and rear bumper, no one would be able to tell the difference.
I am so bummed at where the automotive industry has gone.
I went to the International Auto Show this year in Orlando. Half the companies didn't even show up... and those that did, they didn't even have half their cars. Back in the early 2000s when I'd go with my wife, it was an awesome event that was enormous, and would usually take up the ENTIRE Miami or Fort Lauderdale convention center. Now it's relegated to a single ballroom. Sigh... I'll drink my coffee...
Anyway, looking back over the years, I realize how many cool cars we had that people just took for granted.
I have always liked the turbo 2.0 liter in the sunbird.
But as others have said, other than the "cool" factor, there are many drawbacks... scrapping a pefectly good sunbird is also not really great in my opinion
For the amount of work and hassle, I think a turbo or supercharged Ecotec is far batter. Much more power, more reliable, still looks cool. and much lighter than 3800 and V8 motors, yet can easily hit 300HP or more
Up to you, but I don't think a 165 HP motor with less torque than a 3.4 is worth the hassle.
As the owner of 2 Fieros and 2 Sunbirds, one of which is an 84 Turbo Sunbird I can say that I have always thought that swap would be fun. Like most cars each has a personality. I have great fun driving my Turbo as i do my 3800SC Fiero. I owned both an 84 and 85 Turbo Sunbird hardtops as a young man, couldn't afford a Fiero back then. That little engine produces a power surge when running correctly that is a blast in a little car. Lots of Fiero people know that the turbo engine was considered at one point as a possible option and was run in test mules but not produced. The weight ratio with the 4cyl of course helps with handling. There was also a company who specialized in the swap and performed a number of them. I think if you want to buy the Sunbird and make the swap you should do it if you have fun doing it. I love both but you won't hurt my feelings.
... let's look at Buick. They have four cars this model year. The Envista, Encore, Envision, and some other Ensomething. It's all the same car. Like... GM literally spent millions and millions of dollars basically designing another car that's quite literally the same thing as the other cars from the company.
And worst of all, they're all SUVs of some sort or another. I don't want an SUV, I want a CAR. Preferably a 2-door car. Apparently I am behind the times.
Preferably a GM car. I am a GM guy since birth or probably even before.
Suddenly I am nostalgic for the 80s when each brand had a selection of cars to pick from, large and small. I liked Chevys and Pontiacs. High on the list of favorites would be the 89-90 Turbo Grand Prix. I wouldn't trade my Fiero for one, but I might trade a lot of money. But even a Cavalier Z-24 or Turbo Sunbird (or Turbo Grand Am) would make me very happy. On another forum, someone was selling a "regular" NA 1991 Grand Am, and it was real tempting to buy a plane ticket to Virginia or wherever it was to buy it. I can't remember if it was the Duke or the SOHC Quad 4, but regardless, I'd enjoy driving something like that.
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Yeah, I'm sure it is... but it's still a hot little motor, especially the 2.0L version, which is basically identical, but improved slightly.
quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: The turbo Sunbird engine at only 165 HP is uninspiring.
The Mazda Miata with a 2.0 is amazing. My Dad has had a few. Which I have driven. My Fiero's 2.8 performance was inferior. I held a Fiero rally and invited Miatas. Great turn out both in numbers of each ?creature?.
It's specs are 181 HP / 184 PS / 135 kW @ 7000 rpm Maximum torque : 151 lb-ft / 205 Nm @ 4000 rpm Drive wheels...
The Miata, being a two seat car, rear engine powered, has the motor aligned just as a Fiero does.
Originally posted by larafan: Never seen a rear or mid-engined Miata. They are rear wheel driven. The Toyota MR2 is however.
I don't know why but last night I was thinking about what I said. I realized that plus it is longitudinal, rear wheel drive. The Miata 2.0 still was impressive over my Fiero 2.8.
I don't know why but last night I was thinking about what I said. I realized that plus it is longitudinal, rear wheel drive. The Miata 2.0 still was impressive over my Fiero 2.8.
Thank you.
You weren't wrong...
A car doesn't have to have the engine behind the driver's seat for it to be considered "mid-engine." Mid-engine merely means the engine is between the two axles. But it becomes kind of a nuance thing.
Yes I was as was, larafan was not wrong. My Dad has had as many different Miatas as I have Fieros.
Todd, find one for sale and test drive it. They have impressive performance for a 2.0 litre.
That's more or less how I met my wife. Someone told her at work that I knew about cars, so she came to me because she wanted to buy a Miata, and we test drove a couple of them, but she ended up buying a VW Jetta 1.8T. But I drove a couple of Miatas to see if there was anything wrong with them, and it was a quick little car. But like with everything, small cars feel a lot faster than they are... but they are pretty decent. I'm 6'3" though, so I barely fit in the ones I test drove.
It was the same for my Solstice. I had to have the seat pushed all the way back to the point that it was splitting the rear interior panel with the seat back.
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: That's more or less how I met my wife. Someone told her at work that I knew about cars, so she came to me because she wanted to buy a Miata,
Wow. How much did that debt of gratitude cost 'ya, ?
Edit
To the someone. I know about the cost of gratitude to a wife.
[This message has been edited by cliffw (edited 01-17-2025).]
The west is a good place to find stuff like this. People hold onto old cars out there much more than in the east, especially in the rural areas where people have plenty of land to let cars sit around. Many of them haven't been running in years/decades, but in a dry climate they aren't prone to rust.
In California there's the additional issue of emissions testing - some cars get parked just because the owner couldn't get them to pass emissions, and that makes it hard to sell to an in-state buyer. Also, if the car's registration has lapsed and the owner didn't file and maintain a PNO status (Planned Non-Operation), then CA imposes a massive penalty which is due upon registration. The back-registration penalties can easily exceed the value of the car. So a lot of structurally-sound "project" cars in CA end up where the only viable buyers are the junkyard or an out of state buyer who won't have to deal with California.
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: This looks so awesome... but it kills me that the intake plenum and valve covers are facing the wrong way!
The rear one looks pretty symmetrical from just that picture, would it be possible to cut a valve cover in half, rotate the top half and re-weld it on the bottom half, similiar to how people extend the valve covers for full roller rockers, an idea at least for the rear valve cover.
Originally posted by 1985 Fiero GT: The rear one looks pretty symmetrical from just that picture, would it be possible to cut a valve cover in half, rotate the top half and re-weld it on the bottom half, similiar to how people extend the valve covers for full roller rockers, an idea at least for the rear valve cover.
My Fiero is not here where I live. I am thinking they could be switched side for side and look correct. Yea, some custom vacuum plumbing may need to be done ...
There are several Fieros with Sunbird/Grand AM Turbo engines. If you have a really nice Sunbird Turbo with no issues, you could sell it and install an engine/transmission that has better parts availablity. I bought a beautiful running driving 1988 Sunbird Convertible with 32,000 miles for $500.00 and 1988 Grand Am 2.0L turbo last year. One of them was going to be the donor for my 1988 Fiero. issue is the finding a good manual transmission from that era. Then finding rebuild parts. I ending up selling them and doing a 3800 Supercharged conversion with around 350hp instead. Not as cool and unique, but its fast and all the parts are easily found. Figured if I'm stuck with Automatic, might as well... Still, if you want to do it, have the parts, can do fabrication/welding for mounting brackets and exhaust, DO IT. Turbos make everything better ;-) Just be happy with the Automatic transmission or rare manual transmissions no one will rebuild due to lack of parts. If you decide to do it, GOODLUCK!!!!! Hope to see it on the road!!!! If not, it's understandable ;-)
There are several Fieros with Sunbird/Grand AM Turbo engines. If you have a really nice Sunbird Turbo with no issues, you could sell it and install an engine/transmission that has better parts availablity. I bought a beautiful running driving 1988 Sunbird Convertible with 32,000 miles for $500.00 and 1988 Grand Am 2.0L turbo last year. One of them was going to be the donor for my 1988 Fiero. issue is the finding a good manual transmission from that era. Then finding rebuild parts. I ending up selling them and doing a 3800 Supercharged conversion with around 350hp instead. Not as cool and unique, but its fast and all the parts are easily found. Figured if I'm stuck with Automatic, might as well... Still, if you want to do it, have the parts, can do fabrication/welding for mounting brackets and exhaust, DO IT. Turbos make everything better ;-) Just be happy with the Automatic transmission or rare manual transmissions no one will rebuild due to lack of parts. If you decide to do it, GOODLUCK!!!!! Hope to see it on the road!!!! If not, it's understandable ;-)
Do you happen to have pictures of that 88 Grand Am Turbo? I didn't even know they made them in the Grand Am!
Honestly... this is me being a bit obsessive. So... for those who don't know, Tampa, Florida's history starts with cigar making. But after that, almost all of it's early and middle-history stems entirely from the fact that there is a massive military base here. There are two COCOMs that reside within the base (SOCOM and CENTCOM), and a bunch of other organizations that exist within the confines of MacDill.
Anyway... in the 60s and 70s of Tampa... you had a lot of open land around the base. There was a lot of growth in the base, and many soldiers (mostly senior enlisted and retiring Majors / Colonels) would retire in Florida and then get rehired as civilians a month later. Land was cheap, and a LOT... I mean a LOT of construction took place on all these "feeder" roads into Tampa. These roads would be lined on both sides with your typical "ranch" style homes on 2.5-5 acre lots.
Now, the problem is that huge neighborhoods in the 90s and 2000s also grew up off these roads. So they're all 1 lane each way, and congestion is massive. Money got mispent for decades (I won't get into it), but many of these ranch homes were converted into businesses... doctors offices, etc.
But, because of the climate, and the availability of buying single family homes with huge lots... "car people" have flocked to here. If you ignore Miami having an insane number of Ferraris, Lamborghinis and everything else on every block... Tampa has one of the highest percentages of classic cars of any state. It's up there with Scottsdale, L.A., etc.
So, when I was going to move out here for work, I intentionally resisted looking at these homes because I just knew... I KNEW that if I bought one of these homes, I would end up filling it with cars. There were homes we were looking at (before I decided against it), that had the usual 4/3 bedroom bathroom, with an attached 2 car garage... but then would typically have an entire workshop in the back with a 2-car garage attached to it... or even a steel construction building in the back. There was one home that I saw which had a 3 car on the main house, and then a separate building that was just a large wood shop, with an attached 2-car garage to it, and an efficiency (for visiting guests). And... it even had a 2-car carport off in the back. It had a lake, lots of mature trees and was really, really nice... even had a gate. It went for the same price as the home I ended up buying... which instead was in a neighborhood that has only a 3-car garage, and no room for other structures. I just knew myself.
So... after looking at the Sunbird and thinking I could pull the motor... I then started looking at more Sunbirds, and now I want a Sunbird GT Hatcback... sigh... but I can't buy any of these cars because with my daughter's Fiero almost done, I also have an 84 Corvette that my daughter needs to fix up, and we have a huge stack of parts to restore it. If I got yet another car, it would just be too much.
quote
Originally posted by hyperv6:
This is an economical error.
To buy a sunbird for that much for an out dated turbo engine makes it a very expensive engine.
$6k for an old turbo that may let go after you put it in?
That engine may be worth $1k.
On the other hand an LS is an easy fit, more power, more reliability. Also cheaper than $6k.
If you were doing a turbo get a Eco 2.0 Turbo or supercharger. Much better engine.
There is a reason there are no Sunbird Turbos around. Same with Grand Am Turbos. They blew up.
For sure, we would have rebuilt the entire turbo engine anyway... so we would have made it like new. But buying another car isn't just a good decision right now... for me though, it was as much about the aesthetics and period correctness as it was anything else I suppose.
There are several 2.0 Ecotec Turbos on eBay last time I looked... pretty cheap too.
Then when you're ready with another Fiero, see how much of the entire car could be transplanted like the dash, gauges, interior, etc.
