I welcome you to lay out your argument, or argue with mine. Be advised there are many old threads on this topic, many unanswered questions and avoided realities, threads left without good arguments. I would also recommend you read those threads.
Here is the gist of mine: Premeditated murdering of people is bad, even if the moral majority decides it isn't.
If your only arguemt is something like what about rape, risk to mothers life..or other exceptions...then I welcome you to consider your exception raised in the argument and cater your argument to the rest of the instances when you reply. Since they are the massive majority.
If you're legislating against abortion, you better be legislating for taking care of people cradle to grave.
No death penalties
Universal Healthcare
Universal Basic Income
Addiction Rehabilitation
Or else you don't really care about people and are using abortion as a single issue.
But the CHURCH can help people with a hand up!!
Bull. The smaller guys do what they can sometimes, but Osteen and the like will spit on you on the sidewalk if there ain't a camera there recording some fundraiser.
Some people don't want babies. Sometimes circumstances change. Sometimes the burden is ruinous to all involved.
Don't have SEX if you don't want a baby!!
Get off of your high horse. People are gonna get laid. It's what we do as humans.
Adoption is a great choice
Until there are no children available for adoption, then there's too many children waiting for a forever home. Not to mention the abuse that exists in foster care.
There are even adoption agencies out there that have the gall to not adopt to gays. Imagine having a loving home waiting for you but it not being good enough.
We kill everything else on this planet with reckless abandon, why is a fetus any different.
And cool, maybe abortion will be outlawed in some states. And even some of those anti-abortion states want to keep you from traveling interstate for the procedure, like some prisoner.
Abortion won't stop, it'll just get more gruesome.
We kill everything else on this planet with reckless abandon, why is a fetus any different.
This view is probably more common than I would like to believe, as result of a downward spiral of society. I wonder what was taught and believed to be meaningless first, human life or everything else?
Ahh, so abortion=bad but suffering=cost of doing business
Please re-read the opening post, and my second. Have you seen posts where I was an advocate of personal responsibility? There have been many, that concept may help shed light on your understanding of my perspectives. Am I to understand that you think because any suffering exists somewhere that murderig babies is then ok? I do not comprehend that logic.
This view is probably more common than I would like to believe, as result of a downward spiral of society. I wonder what was taught and believed to be meaningless first, human life or everything else?
Human life has never been that sacred. We just can't work the kids to death in the coal mines anymore.
In the US, and I'm sure many other places, you can't be poor anymore. you can't live in a shanty with a pot belly stove and your 20 kids and eat dirt like you used to. Society and the system won't allow it, and even when it did, those kids were dropping off like nobodys business.
So do you want to go back to dust bowl times when kids died from work and untreated disease, or caveman times when they just ditched them, or what?
Or do you want that pregnant mom to work two or three minimum wage jobs, miss OB appointments, get immediately reported to the state for missing said appointments, and have a child where, since we don't believe in welfare all that much, suffers as much as possible with their mother. Or is everything just white picket fences and stay at home moms in your world?
That said, I've become strongly against the death penalty as well.
I do not have a problem with the "morning after" pill, or something of that extent. Between that point and a heartbeat, I really can't say where I stand. I 100% believe that if there's a heart-beat, abortion is unacceptable. But I have some grey-area before that.
Human life is sacred. Every person truly is an opportunity for greatness.
If you're legislating against abortion, you better be legislating for taking care of people cradle to grave.
No death penalties
Universal Healthcare
Universal Basic Income
Addiction Rehabilitation
Or else you don't really care about people and are using abortion as a single issue.
I'll go for all that. Set up a test in States that agree to it and see how it works out. No abortion at all, ever. And since you've got the Government in charge of everything else, you go to their office to get laid. Also, work camps. It always ends up in work camps Comrade. This communist utopia you think will happen will never happen. Humans are horrible, and always take advantage of the system to make themselves better than the other people.
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But the CHURCH can help people with a hand up!!
Bull. The smaller guys do what they can sometimes, but Osteen and the like will spit on you on the sidewalk if there ain't a camera there recording some fundraiser.
The church used to be the "go to" on almost everything, including unplanned pregnancy. The Government (What you advocated for above) stepped in and took away much of their ability, the Government continues to take away the ability of the Church to aid people. Sure, there are still places that help, but the Government got into that business and things changed. If you are giving away food and teaching people how to be self sufficient, and the Government sets up a program where you get food and money, AND don't have to do anything to get the free stuff... People stop going to you for help and take the easy path.
Osteen isn't the "church" BTW, the church he works for donated gives a year to all kinds of aid, plus they have food and clothing "kitchens". I believe it was started by his father. I don't get the hate around him, but Joel doesn't take any pay from the church, and donates some of his income (from books and businesses) to the church. Sure, he seems like a massive prick, I've tried to listen to some of his sermons on XM over the years, and I can't get into him, but some do. How you find God is your path man.
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Some people don't want babies. Sometimes circumstances change. Sometimes the burden is ruinous to all involved.
Don't have SEX if you don't want a baby!!
Get off of your high horse. People are gonna get laid. It's what we do as humans.
How many kinds of birth control are there? Abortion isn't birth control, it's killing a baby because you valued sex more than someone's life. I've been married for 22 years to a woman that will end up in a wheel chair if she gets pregnant. Amazingly we've not ever ended up having to make a hard choice... It's like we realize that we have responsibility and do things to mitigate the dangers. BTW, if she did somehow get pregnant, we would absolutely keep the baby.
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Adoption is a great choice
Until there are no children available for adoption, then there's too many children waiting for a forever home. Not to mention the abuse that exists in foster care.
There are even adoption agencies out there that have the gall to not adopt to gays. Imagine having a loving home waiting for you but it not being good enough.
Have you ever went through the foster process? First off, the Government is involved. The same one you want in charge of everything else. You go to classes, not a huge problem. Then you have background checks and have to visit counselors. Then you get house visits, constant house visits. They tell you what pets you can and can't have. Everything you do has to be OK'd by Big Brother. It's great to be able to help kids, but the hoops that have been set up benefit the system, not the kids or the helper.
And this system clearly works really well [/sarcasm] since we never hear about children being abused in this system at all....🙄
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We kill everything else on this planet with reckless abandon, why is a fetus any different.
What???
Oh, I know why it's different, because it's a HUMAN LIFE.
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And cool, maybe abortion will be outlawed in some states. And even some of those anti-abortion states want to keep you from traveling interstate for the procedure, like some prisoner.
Abortion won't stop, it'll just get more gruesome.
So, if it's legal to have sex with a 15 year old in the state next to you, and you take a 15 year old to that state to have sex, would that be wrong?
What if California said that it's no longer illegal to steal a car if you have the keys, so you rent cars and take them to California to cut up and resell. Would that be wrong?
Perhaps you are right, people are monsters after all. You, for instance, seem to relish the thought of being able to kill a baby. People are going to break the law, so we should just do away with all the laws. I'm sure that'll work out great since your side (the commies, so you know where I think you "stand".) relies on the law to keep the other side from unaliving you.
In the US, and I'm sure many other places, you can't be poor anymore. you can't live in a shanty with a pot belly stove and your 20 kids and eat dirt like you used to. Society and the system won't allow it, and even when it did, those kids were dropping off like nobodys business.
Ahhhh, you are sheltered. I get it. You don't know how the world works.
There are people in shanties all over the country. Heck, California has people living in shanties all over the state. I drive past shanty towns all over the country. There was one about 50 miles north of me that was bulldozed a few years ago.
I've still got friends I grew up with that have no indoor plumbing and dirt floors. I know poor like most people don't. My family was poor, but went to church and didn't rely on drugs and alcohol like many of the other people did. My wife didn't have indoor plumbing until she was 10. There are horrors that people will never understand, but also blessings that they will never get. I would almost trade everything to go back to the times of our entire family living in a one bedroom house outside the poorest town, in the poorest county in Arkansas. We had a homemade wood burning stove, cooked beans on an open fire outside, and went to bed when the sun went down. Most of our days were spent exploring caves, and running around barefoot. Not because we didn't have shoes. We didn't tear them up so they looked good at school and church.
The "issue" is that most of these problems are self caused and because of "Government Aid", they aren't going to get any better. You take your free monthly check, get high for a few weeks, suffer for the last week, and repeat.
this is exactly where the ''we want less government'' BREAKS INTO YOU MUST DO AS WE SAY or we will use our oversized [worlds biggest] prison system our just-ice system that only cares about procedure not guilt all supported by the church in it's uncountable sub cults everywhere
never mind the effects on teen moms and their kids WE feel GOD DEMANDS THIS even tho no body ever talks to god as you believers just made him up
sorry weird claims need proof you side has NONE laws need to be fact based NOT feelings or even old belief
If you're legislating against abortion, you better be legislating for taking care of people cradle to grave.
No death penalties
Universal Healthcare
Universal Basic Income
Addiction Rehabilitation
Or else you don't really care about people and are using abortion as a single issue.
But the CHURCH can help people with a hand up!!
Bull. The smaller guys do what they can sometimes, but Osteen and the like will spit on you on the sidewalk if there ain't a camera there recording some fundraiser.
Some people don't want babies. Sometimes circumstances change. Sometimes the burden is ruinous to all involved.
Don't have SEX if you don't want a baby!!
Get off of your high horse. People are gonna get laid. It's what we do as humans.
Adoption is a great choice
Until there are no children available for adoption, then there's too many children waiting for a forever home. Not to mention the abuse that exists in foster care.
There are even adoption agencies out there that have the gall to not adopt to gays. Imagine having a loving home waiting for you but it not being good enough.
We kill everything else on this planet with reckless abandon, why is a fetus any different.
And cool, maybe abortion will be outlawed in some states. And even some of those anti-abortion states want to keep you from traveling interstate for the procedure, like some prisoner.
Abortion won't stop, it'll just get more gruesome.
So many false equivalencies here.
Every state has a Safe Haven law. No need to rely on charity. There is an absolute overwhelming demand for babies such that people go to Asia to find an unwanted baby to adopt.
From personal experience I can tell you my wife and girls all choose this one issue as to who they vote for. "A clump of cells" as my youngest says. Many women want the right to kill their offspring before birth without having to get approval from the state. They also feel we don't have a horse in this race.
"my body, my choice" also applies to those not wanting to get vaccinated.
this is exactly where the ''we want less government'' BREAKS INTO YOU MUST DO AS WE SAY or we will use our oversized [worlds biggest] prison system our just-ice system that only cares about procedure not guilt all supported by the church in it's uncountable sub cults everywhere
never mind the effects on teen moms and their kids WE feel GOD DEMANDS THIS even tho no body ever talks to god as you believers just made him up
sorry weird claims need proof you side has NONE laws need to be fact based NOT feelings or even old belief
Again, false equivalencies. No need for teen moms as every state has Safe Haven laws. Give the baby up, no questions asked.
Less government does not mean NO government. It's pretty simple, don't kill another human. However, the question becomes when is that "clump of cells" a human?
I can see both sides of the issue- but I believe that a total ban like the extremists are trying to create is wrong. My own conservative beliefs are low taxes, strong military and less government- and biased towards local government.
I fully understand the Christian right's opinion, even though I disagree with it to some extent. They basically believe that any life is God-given and sacred...so to take any life is wrong. But taking this ideal to an even more extreme level; "No sperm or eggs should EVER be wasted, and you are evil if you ever do waste them" This leads to "No masturbation, no sex except for reproduction", etc.
I also understand the less extreme versions of the liberals beliefs; That a woman has a "right to chose"....I strongly disagree with the celebratory way some extremist women view this situation.
I have absolutely iron-clad beliefs about some of this; A woman's life takes precedent- if her life is in any way threatened by her pregnancy, then it should be her right to ask that it be terminated. I also believe that women who are victims of rape should be allowed whatever choice they wish. The absolute idiocy of governor Abbott stating "We will completely eliminate rape" is beyond stupid- He is either completely brain-dead or he is a rapist trying cover his azz; "Doth protest too much"
I have a far better way to handle this situation; I believe the moderates from both sides should form a group that will try to cut back as much on abortion as possible- create groups that will help with adoption of unwanted babies, help to eliminate as much rape as possible, and education so that children (12-17) fully understand the pluses and (Mainly) the minuses of pregnancy, child birth and rearing. I am talking about a phased approach; 12 year olds will only get a very basic idea, then at 14 (High school) there will be more detailed info, and senior year a very detailed look at the real situation.
I also understand that a lot of people on the right want children to be "little innocents" until they turn 21.....That is a fools dream.
And since you've got the Government in charge of everything else, you go to their office to get laid.
LOL... I can only imagine what that would look like. I suspect nothing like they have in the Netherlands, and probably more like a run-down 80s looking Government building that has rooms with administrators that are hired to perform sex acts. They have to wear gender-neutral clothing, so as not to offend. There are forms to fill out... MANY forms. You must wear a mask while doing it, and there must be multiple layers of protection... a translucent plastic sheet between the two of you. Protection of course... and they must be government-certified condoms. You are not allowed to pick a gender because that would be sexist. Sex workers are chosen at random because picking a hair color, body type, or race would all be bigoted.
To be clear, I've never utilized the red light district in the Netherlands, but every time my wife and I go to Amsterdam, we hang out at one of the bars and watch people go in and then count the number of seconds / minutes till they come back out. Hahah...
Human life has never been that sacred. We just can't work the kids to death in the coal mines anymore.
In the US, and I'm sure many other places, you can't be poor anymore. you can't live in a shanty with a pot belly stove and your 20 kids and eat dirt like you used to. Society and the system won't allow it, and even when it did, those kids were dropping off like nobodys business.
So do you want to go back to dust bowl times when kids died from work and untreated disease, or caveman times when they just ditched them, or what?
Or do you want that pregnant mom to work two or three minimum wage jobs, miss OB appointments, get immediately reported to the state for missing said appointments, and have a child where, since we don't believe in welfare all that much, suffers as much as possible with their mother. Or is everything just white picket fences and stay at home moms in your world?
One can create a lot of imaginary scenarios, it doesnt change the act of abortion. In the world of scenarios, does multiple people making multiple bad choices through time mean killing unborn children is now ok? Later down the road would it be ok to kill if they are less than 1 year old (12 months outside the womb)? 1 month? Maybe the elderly?
I fully understand the Christian right's opinion, even though I disagree with it to some extent. They basically believe that any life is God-given and sacred...so to take any life is wrong. But taking this ideal to an even more extreme level; "No sperm or eggs should EVER be wasted" .
This stretch is silly to me. Life begins at conception, scientists can figure that out. Periods waste eggs by apparent design.
Related to as you said the Christian opinion : Doesn't it seem like the argument that we don't need a foundation to be "moral" people crumbles when we see that we are ok with dismembering our own offspring in the womb when we decide what we feel is right based simply on public opinion?
[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 03-29-2022).]
This stretch is silly to me. Life begins at conception, scientists can figure that out. Periods waste eggs by apparent design.
Related to as you said the Christian opinion : Doesn't it seem like the argument that we don't need a foundation to be "moral" people crumbles when we see that we are ok with dismembering our own offspring in the womb when we decide what we feel is right based simply on public opinion?
look up onan
there have been laws in the home of the free forbidding any birth control devices AND EVEN TEACHING ABOUT BIRTH CONTROL
WHY DO YOU THINK IT IS OK TO IMPOSE YOUR MORALITY ON OTHERS
Almost ALL of our laws are based on the bedrock of Judeo-Christian teachings.
And THERE is the main problem with humans and "society'.
Each and every religion is DETERMINED, one way or another, using whatever means required, to force the entire global population to live as "they" think is right and to think the way they do.
As with most things in life, it really isnt about "abortion". It's about power and control. Abortion simply happens to be the means of the moment, and will be replaced with something else later on. Like always.
Each and every religion is DETERMINED, one way or another, using whatever means required, to force the entire global population to live as "they" think is right and to think the way they do.
As with most things in life, it really isnt about "abortion". It's about power and control. Abortion simply happens to be the means of the moment, and will be replaced with something else later on. Like always.
Wrong, context matters. Later down the road would it be ok to kill if they are less than 1 year old (12 months outside the womb)? 1 month? Maybe the elderly, if public opinion says thats what we feel like?
Wrong, context matters. Later down the road would it be ok to kill if they are less than 1 year old (12 months outside the womb)? 1 month? Maybe the elderly, if public opinion says thats what we feel like?
Or Commie....Or Alcada...or Taliban.....or Nazi.....or Jap.....or....or.....or....
Killing is nothing new. It's just a matter of who is expedient and acceptable at the particular time and place. And to who.
Wrong, context matters. Later down the road would it be ok to kill if they are less than 1 year old (12 months outside the womb)? 1 month? Maybe the elderly, if public opinion says thats what we feel like?
UNDER ROMAN LAW the father could kill any member of his family inc an adult son as there is a famous story about that
BUT---it seems to me banning it might be a good idea simply to equalize the power dynamic. Right now basically women hold financial slavery power over men. THEIR choice but if they choose to keep it males get to pay for that choice.
So by taking the "choice" away from them, it might smarten them up a little (I doubt it ). See how THEY like forced slavery when "choice" is taken away from them.
(Yeh, I'm not much of a fan of feminazism.)
[This message has been edited by MidEngineManiac (edited 03-29-2022).]
Why do you think it's OK to impose YOUR morality on others?
Moral relativism is a hallmark of childish Leftist belief.
When he calls the police to report a crime or tries to file a lawsuit he doesn't expect to be told: "Sorry, but we can't impose your morality on others."
The real core of the entire abortion issue though is the refusal to take personal responsibility for your own actions.
Having refused to take personal responsibility to not make a baby to begin with, the total refusal to take personal responsibility then moves on to destroying that human life in order to not take responsibility for the consequences of their own actions.
[This message has been edited by randye (edited 03-29-2022).]
It all comes down to this: They're called Reproductive Organs FOR A REASON. Follow the "Science"/Biology/Anatomy. You don't just piss out of them. I don't know of any school that doesn't teach this. From health class (unless allowed to participate by parental exemption) to basic biology class. It's what separates us (humans) from the animal kingdom. We (humans) know what they are and what they're for, animals do not. Some humans I guess don't have brains. Guess they never "evolved"...
Soon the followers of the party of total lunacy, will say the ovaries and testicles are the only reproductive organs.
This is how far morally society has sunk.
"The Pill" wasn't good enough
"The Patch" wasn't good enough
"Morning After aka PLAN-B Pill" wasn't good enough
"Communication" with ones partner about her cycle wasn't good enough
Coming soon, male birth control pill. But even THAT won't be good enough
Soooo, when in doubt, suck "it" out. When you damn well know what "it" is. There is a certain political tilt that loves to change the definitions of words to enforce/promote a narrative (and you know who they are). Sheeeatt, a hundred years or so everyone will be sterile.
Some people just want a get out of jail free card.
A society of just excuses and NO personal responsibility, is chaos which sinks into anarchy. Especially when dealing with innocent life. Notice how most E.D. commercials talk about "performance"(they're not just targeting older people)? That's how far we've sunk. That's a narrative being driven right there.
Fat's is correct 👍. Since Government involvement in religion/marriage, things went to crap. Some call that "Progress".
[This message has been edited by WonderBoy (edited 03-29-2022).]
Originally posted by WonderBoy: A society of excuses and NO personal responsibility, is chaos which sinks into anarchy. Especially when dealing with innocent life.
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Originally posted by ray b: this is exactly where the ''we want less government'' BREAKS INTO YOU MUST DO AS WE SAY WHY DO YOU THINK IT IS OK TO IMPOSE YOUR MORALITY ON OTHERS
Ray, it's not all or nothing, nothing in this sense would be Anarchy.
I was against abortion for a long time, because I view the fetus as independent life from the prospective mother, and we all have a right to life.
However, I've since come to recognize there are other rights that supersede that. I don't remember the name of the argument itself, I know it has one, but it was published in A Defense of Abortion:
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[Imagine] you wake up in the morning and find yourself back-to-back in bed with an unconscious violinist. A famous unconscious violinist. He has been found to have a fatal kidney ailment, and the Society of Music Lovers has canvassed all the available medical records and found that you alone have the right blood type to help. They have therefore kidnapped you, and last night the violinist’s circulatory system was plugged into yours, so that your kidneys can be used to extract poisons from his blood as well as your own. The director of the hospital now tells you, “Look, we’re sorry the Society of Music Lovers did this to you–we would never have permitted it if we had known. But still, they did it, and the violinist is now plugged into you. To unplug you would be to kill him. But never mind, it’s only for nine months…” Is it morally incumbent on you to accede to this situation?
Simply put, though the fetus has a right to life, its right to life does not supersede the pregnant person's right to bodily autonomy. I cannot be forced to give you one of my organs, just as you cannot be forced to give me blood. We all have full bodily autonomy and the right to not donate organs, even if only temporary.
It could end there, but of course reality is a bit more complex. There is a period after birth where a child is still dependent on the parents for survival, and if the parents don't keep the baby alive, that would be child neglect. However, the parents still have autonomy, because at that point, they can relinquish their parental responsibilities at any time through adoption. They cannot transfer the fetus to another womb, else that would be preferable to abortion. The only asterisk to this is that, today, they can't do this in a vacuum because if only one parent does this, they're still required to provide child support. I also think our child support system is broken.
I don't only believe abortion is a clear right due to bodily autonomy, I also believe each parent should have a period where they can relinquish all parental and financial responsibility, and at that point, the other parent can still decide if they choose to keep the child or not. (The reason I say parent neutrally is because if a man wants the child without any financial or parental support, I don't believe his want supersedes the woman's rights to bodily autonomy, but I do think she should be able to relinquish responsibility and still carry to term. The more common scenario would undoubtedly be a man relinquishes responsibility, and the woman at that point can decide between 1. Having the child without any father support, or 2. Aborting the baby because that means she can no longer support the child).
To summarize, I believe we all have bodily autonomy that supersedes someone else's rights to life. I also believe the system as it exists is flawed and doesn't provide equal rights to all parties.
[This message has been edited by theBDub (edited 03-30-2022).]
Simply put, though the fetus has a right to life, its right to life does not supersede the pregnant person's right to bodily autonomy. I cannot be forced to give you one of my organs, just as you cannot be forced to give me blood. We all have full bodily autonomy and the right to not donate organs, even if only temporary.
Yeah, that has been the only valid argument for me in defense of abortion, but for me... I look at it from the perspective of decisions have consequences. The actions you take (if irresponsible), won't always bite you in the ass, but sometimes they do. When it comes to life... you have a responsibility.
What IS in the control of government (state governments, in my opinion), is the right to deny abortion providers from performing abortions, punish women who give birth and abandon their babies, and holding fathers accountable for their end of this process.
Yeah, that has been the only valid argument for me in defense of abortion, but for me... I look at it from the perspective of decisions have consequences. The actions you take (if irresponsible), won't always bite you in the ass, but sometimes they do. When it comes to life... you have a responsibility.
What IS in the control of government (state governments, in my opinion), is the right to deny abortion providers from performing abortions, punish women who give birth and abandon their babies, and holding fathers accountable for their end of this process.
Sometimes, it wasn't a decision. Do you then believe abortion is okay in the event of rape?
I also believe the system as it exists is flawed and doesn't provide equal rights to all parties.
I can't let that conflict just sit. For sure not with my own opinion.
What do you say to this? In the world of scenarios, does multiple people making multiple bad choices through time mean killing unborn children is now ok? Later down the road would it be ok to kill if they are less than 1 year old (12 months outside the womb)? 1 month? Maybe the elderly?
I can't let that conflict just sit. For sure not with my own opinion.
What do you say to this? In the world of scenarios, does multiple people making multiple bad choices through time mean killing unborn children is now ok? Later down the road would it be ok to kill if they are less than 1 year old (12 months outside the womb)? 1 month? Maybe the elderly?
It's not a conflict. It's a statement. My opinion on abortion upholds bodily autonomy; I have other related opinions as well.
I don't know where your question comes from, since in my post, I start with the statement that I believe we have a right to life. I think you may misunderstand my point of view just because you don't support our right to bodily autonomy. If anything, as we progress in medical science, the time for pulling the plug on unborn children should go down. In my opinion, if the woman elects to stop carrying the child, and the child can survive without the woman, there is no conflict of rights - the child should be removed and placed on life support. So, over time, as we get better at supporting the life of unborn children outside of a womb, the number of abortions would go down.
It's not a conflict. It's a statement. My opinion on abortion upholds bodily autonomy; I have other related opinions as well.
I don't know where your question comes from, since in my post, I start with the statement that I believe we have a right to life. I think you may misunderstand my point of view just because you don't support our right to bodily autonomy. If anything, as we progress in medical science, the time for pulling the plug on unborn children should go down. In my opinion, if the woman elects to stop carrying the child, and the child can survive without the woman, there is no conflict of rights - the child should be removed and placed on life support. So, over time, as we get better at supporting the life of unborn children outside of a womb, the number of abortions would go down.
It is a statement yes of your stance, your decision what your opinion will be, which is in conflict with itself. IMO. You had to decide the child was not important.
I dont understand your non understanding of my question. It seems spelled out plainly. I added clarifiers:
In the world of scenarios, does multiple people making multiple bad choices through time (I.E. the reasons they get pregnant, the reasons it may be hard to raise the kid they created) mean killing unborn children is now ok? Later down the road would it be ok to kill if they are less than 1 year old (12 months outside the womb)? 1 month? Maybe the elderly? Would your opinion just be that you believe the system as it exists is flawed and you've come to believe there are other rights that supersede the child's?
You said " I also believe each parent should have a period where they can relinquish all parental and financial responsibility" That is giving your child up for adoption isn't it?
Topic Closed
). See how THEY like forced slavery when "choice" is taken away from them.
