Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: The intelligence was excellent, we just did nothing with it. You're posting a liberal news report, about four agencies that are under the direct authority of the Executive Branch, which were asked to take the blame for the President who's in charge of the Executive Branch, who asked them to produce these reports. Can you be any more ignorant and oblivious?
Please provide a source to back up your claim that the "intelligence was excellent". At the Congressional hearings Gen. Mark Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Gen. Frank McKenzie, the commander of U.S. Central Command, and Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin ALL said the intelligence was bad.
https://abcnews.go.com/Poli...al/story?id=80286958 Austin. "The fact that the Afghan army, we and our partners trained, simply melted away – in many cases without firing a shot – took us all by surprise. It would be dishonest to claim otherwise."
"There's no intel assessment that says the government is going to collapse and the military is going to collapse in 11 days that I'm aware of. And I've read I think all of them," said Milley, who later described the failure to predict the scope and scale of the Taliban takeover as "a swing and a miss."
"I did not foresee it to be days. I thought it could take months," said McKenzie, who added that he had anticipated that the Afghan military would be able to hold out against the Taliban until later this year and possibly into early next year.
Originally posted by fredtoast: Please provide a source to back up your claim that the "intelligence was excellent". At the Congressional hearings Gen. Mark Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Gen. Frank McKenzie, the commander of U.S. Central Command, and Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin ALL said the intelligence was bad.
BECAUSE the President told them to say these things. This was the narrative that the U.S. President directed them to say. You are completely and utterly ignorant on this, where as I have direct experience. So I find a bunch of links... then what? You argue back and forth again, never changing your mind. It's not worth my time. You and I BOTH know you're a waste of time.
Personally, what I do know is that the overwhelming vast majority of the country blames Biden for this mess... and they should. Whatever it is you think about it... I don't really care, because you're unimportant.
BECAUSE the President told them to say these things.
Then post a link to support your claim. You can't just make stuff up and expect people to believe it. You have to have SOME SOURCE for your opinion. What is it.
BECAUSE the President told them to say these things. This was the narrative that the U.S. President directed them to say. You are completely and utterly ignorant on this, where as I have direct experience. So I find a bunch of links... then what? You argue back and forth again, never changing your mind. It's not worth my time. You and I BOTH know you're a waste of time.
Personally, what I do know is that the overwhelming vast majority of the country blames Biden for this mess... and they should. Whatever it is you think about it... I don't really care, because you're unimportant.
How is it knowable that the overwhelming majority of public opinion blames Biden for the way that the endgame (so to speak) played out, in Afghanistan?
Is there polling data? What was the methodology? Were there questions? What were the questions? Was there any probing to see if there is an apportionment of the blame, in which Biden is only partly to blame, and other persons or reasons, aside from Biden himself as the Commander in Chief, take the remainder of the blame?
If you examine a common kind of poll, which quantifies the satisfaction (vs dissatisfaction) with the Biden presidency, how do you isolate "endgame in Afghanistan" from all the other perceptions related to Biden' s presidency?
Is this an assessment that's based on the particulars of discussions or remarks that are manifest on online messaging boards or other similar forums? How is it determined that these discussions or remarks represent an overwhelming majority of public opinion?
I have a robust, if not a profound level of skepticism about this. Am I alone in this regard?
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 08-06-2023).]
How is it knowable that the overwhelming majority of public opinion blames Biden for the way that the endgame (so to speak) played out, in Afghanistan?
Is there polling data? What was the methodology? Were there questions? What were the questions? Was there any probing to see if there is an apportionment of the blame, in which Biden is only partly to blame, and other persons or reasons, aside from Biden himself as the Commander in Chief, take the remainder of the blame?
If you examine a common kind of poll, which quantifies the satisfaction (vs dissatisfaction) with the Biden presidency, how do you isolate "endgame in Afghanistan" from all the other perceptions related to Biden' s presidency?
Is this an assessment that's based on the particulars of discussions or remarks that are manifest on online messaging boards or other similar forums? How is it determined that these discussions or remarks represent an overwhelming majority of public opinion?
I have a robust, if not a profound level of skepticism about this. Am I alone in this regard?
"A large majority (71%) of Americans say the Biden administration has done a poor (42%) or only fair (29%) job handling the situation in Afghanistan. Just 26% say that the Biden administration has done an excellent (6%) or good job (21%) handling the situation in Afghanistan."
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: "A large majority (71%) of Americans say the Biden administration has done a poor (42%) or only fair (29%) job handling the situation in Afghanistan. Just 26% say that the Biden administration has done an excellent (6%) or good job (21%) handling the situation in Afghanistan."
Don't you mean "Only a minority of Americans (42%) believe Biden did a 'poor job' with the Afghanistan withdrawal, while a majority (58%) think he has done a 'fair job or better'."
This article proves how much more balanced CNN is. This story claims Biden could have avoided all problems by keeping 2,500 US troops in Afghanistan by making them "non-combat advisors". That would not have changed anything. It just would have gotten more us soldiers killed and continued to suck valuable US tax dollars down the hole of Afghanistan.
This article proves how much more balanced CNN is. This story claims Biden could have avoided all problems by keeping 2,500 US troops in Afghanistan by making them "non-combat advisors". That would not have changed anything. It just would have gotten more us soldiers killed and continued to suck valuable US tax dollars down the hole of Afghanistan.
Sigh... good thing I've got a drink in my hand, so I won't take your ignorance personally.
This is exactly what we're doing in Iraq... we have 2,500 troops there. In Afghanistan, we were already simply providing support as non-combat advisors.
The pull-out was such a disaster, that on the last day as everyone was escaping... they didn't even have enough pilots so they left behind several C-130s... with everything on board. The soliders shot into the crypto and the other hardware... but I'm sure you know how that goes.
Fantastic job Joe Biden... you didn't listen to a single person... once again, this entire decision was poll-tested by a radical leftist focus group from San Francisco / DC / NYC.
You will go down in history as the worst president this country has ever had. No one will remember you for literally doing anything... except failure.
Fantastic job Joe Biden... you didn't listen to a single person... .
This just is not true at all. There were many conflicting opinions on how the withdrawal should have been handled. The Intelligence was faulty, and many Republicans were trying to straddle the fence of praising Trump for screeing to withdraw the troops and criticizing Biden for withdrawing the troops.
This is kind of a long read, but it is a very good breakdown of the issues and the position specific position polititians were taking BEFORE it all went to hell.
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: You will go down in history as the worst president this country has ever had. No one will remember you for literally doing anything... except failure.
Actually only a minority of Americans (42%) claim that Biden did a "poor" job with the withdrawal. A majority (58%) claimed that he did a "fair" job or better.
BECAUSE the President told them to say these things. This was the narrative that the U.S. President directed them to say. You are completely and utterly ignorant on this, where as I have direct experience. So I find a bunch of links... then what? You argue back and forth again, never changing your mind. It's not worth my time. You and I BOTH know you're a waste of time.
Todd, It's the usual Leftist "internet links dick measuring contest".
They cannot conceive that anyone has direct, personal, experience and knowledge that contradicts their Wikipedia and Leftist propaganda fueled delusions.
I remember that one of my INSCOM colleagues had a small sign on his desk that said: "See me strut, See me swagger, If you knew what I know it would make you stagger".
Todd, It's the usual Leftist "internet links dick measuring contest".
They cannot conceive that anyone has direct, personal, experience and knowledge that contradicts their Wikipedia and Leftist propaganda fueled delusions.
Originally posted by randye: They cannot conceive that anyone has direct, personal, experience and knowledge that contradicts their Wikipedia and Leftist propaganda fueled delusions."
I would be thrilled if anyone would explain their direct personal experience and knowledge on this subject. So far no one has claimed to have any direct personal knowledge of the US intelligence on the Afghanistan withdrawal.
All I have seen is a person make a comment with absolutely nothing to back it up. Wikipedia at least links sources. That is better than absolutely nothing.
Originally posted by fredtoast: Actually only a minority of Americans (42%) claim that Biden did a "poor" job with the withdrawal. A majority (58%) claimed that he did a "fair" job or better.
You might not remember that over 50% of Americans wanted to end our actions in Afghanistan. Does any of the polled people detail if it could be done better ?
Originally posted by fredtoast: I would be thrilled if anyone would explain their direct personal experience and knowledge on this subject. So far no one has claimed to have any direct personal knowledge of the US intelligence on the Afghanistan withdrawal.
All I have seen is a person make a comment with absolutely nothing to back it up. Wikipedia at least links sources. That is better than absolutely nothing.
You may be surprised to know that there are members of this Forum that do have direct knowledge, but can't share due to their oath to protect the Constitution. You know, security clearances and stuff like that......
You may be surprised to know that there are members of this Forum that do have direct knowledge, but can't share due to their oath to protect the Constitution. You know, security clearances and stuff like that......
Yep. Fredtoast isn't a normal Democrat. It's a religion to him. To some extent this is also how Rinse is... but Rinse will at least say, "Ok... I have some reading to do." When he's directly challenged with something. For Fred, this is entirely a religious ideology... so it really doesn't matter what anyone here says, he wants to believe that Biden did the absolute best he could, and doesn't understand that people at that level often DO NOT CARE how things turn out, and often only do things based on how it affects them politically ... which ironically, result in even worse outcomes that lead to worse political ramifications (e.g. Benghazi).
So, I have to simply curtail my desire to educate him, because as they say... the juice is not worth the squeeze. This is a dry orange, there's not even a drop in there, so why waste my time wringing it? If Biden himself apologized for the screw-up and laid everything out, Fred would still be trying to say that it's not as bad as it seems, and then talk about how honorable Biden is for admitting mistakes... while at the same time trying to tell us all that Trump would have made the same mistakes.
Originally posted by olejoedad: You may be surprised to know that there are members of this Forum that do have direct knowledge, but can't share due to their oath to protect the Constitution. You know, security clearances and stuff like that......
I don't "buy" that.
I can believe that there are forum members that have information that they do not want to reveal on this forum because it's information that they came by as members of the armed services, or as military contractors, or as members of the Intelligence Community, and they do not want to reveal it because they are being true to their obligation to protect the confidentiality of the information.
I can believe that there are forum members who have this kind of information because they have personal connections with current or recent members of the armed services, or current or recent military contractors or even the Intelligence Community, even though their own history as an active and serving member in one of these (three) categories was decades prior, and not anything at all recent.
I don't believe that it's the kind of information that would persuade me—if I were made privy to it—that Biden's role in what I've been referring to as the "end game" in Afghanistan was so egregious that he should be regarded as a kind of modern day Benedict Arnold—and that seems to me to be the mindset of some of the remarks that I've seen on this forum.
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 08-10-2023).]
Originally posted by rinselberg: I don't believe that it's the kind of information that would persuade me—if I were made privy to it—that Biden's role in what I've been referring to as the "end game" in Afghanistan was so egregious that he should be regarded as a kind of modern day Benedict Arnold—and that seems to me to be the mindset of some of the remarks that I've seen on this forum.
Here's what you should believe.
Biden's decision to get out of Afghanistan, and the way in which he did it, and the things he intentionally DID NOT do (like destroying the thousands of Taliban with a single Predator drone that were waiting outside of Kandahar), was all calculated.
There is a diametric difference between Trump, and Biden. Trump is a cowboy of sorts, doing whatever the hell he wants, and often blatantly disregards the recommendations from his cabinet. On the other hand, Biden takes the other extreme, doing literally everything that his advisors tell him to do. Most of these advisors are political... not military strategists. This was similar (though not as bad) under the Obama administration, which you can read about in any of the books written by Obama's former advisors.
Much of what Biden does is "poll tested" in a "focus group." Unfortunately, this group of individuals is very myopic and leans very left. Almost everything is done in such a way as to balance risk versus "optics." What unfortunately happens is that these decisions end up being ... well, quite bad, and the result is even worse than what they feared the alternate outcome would be. There were many times in my career that I was directly prevented from doing something based on an "optics risk" from the lawyers at the White House. It was a constant frustration.
When you can view Trump's decisions (doing whatever the hell he wants) and Biden (doing whatever he's told), you can begin to make sense of literally both administrations. I think you know that what I'm saying here is not outlandish, and probably makes some sense. I know you'll likely have the usual response, and that's OK. But that should help make sense of the actions of both administrations.
You may be surprised to know that there are members of this Forum that do have direct knowledge, but can't share due to their oath to protect the Constitution. You know, security clearances and stuff like that......
Don't know who you might be talking about, but it can't be 82TA. He is talking openly about the intelligence here on a public forum. Plus if he really had evidence that every high ranking official lied to congress just to protect Joe Biden he would have been blowing the whistle immediately. He definitely would no be remaining silent to protect Joe.
Don't know who you might be talking about, but it can't be 82TA. He is talking openly about the intelligence here on a public forum. Plus if he really had evidence that every high ranking official lied to congress just to protect Joe Biden he would have been blowing the whistle immediately. He definitely would no be remaining silent to protect Joe.
Do not put words in my mouth. And I am not, "talking openly about the intelligence here on a public forum."
doesn't understand that people at that level often DO NOT CARE how things turn out, and often only do things based on how it affects them politically
You are correct. I don't understand how this works. How does making a decision based on what a majority of voter would support the same as "not caring".
You basically contradict yourself. And that is why I don't understand.
You have repeatedly said that the US military lied about the intelligence at the Congressional hearings. You said the intelligence was "excellent".
Were you in military intelligence in 2021?
Lol, look at you trying to lawyer me here. I said the U.S. Government lies about things, even withholds the truth where it needs to. I'm well within my right to state that, and can do so without breaking my oath.
I can believe that there are forum members that have information that they do not want to reveal on this forum because it's information that they came by as members of the armed services, or as military contractors, or as members of the Intelligence Community, and they do not want to reveal it because they are being true to their obligation to protect the confidentiality of the information.
I can believe that there are forum members who have this kind of information because they have personal connections with current or recent members of the armed services, or current or recent military contractors or even the Intelligence Community, even though their own history as an active and serving member in one of these (three) categories was decades prior, and not anything at all recent.
I don't believe that it's the kind of information that would persuade me—if I were made privy to it—that Biden's role in what I've been referring to as the "end game" in Afghanistan was so egregious that he should be regarded as a kind of modern day Benedict Arnold—and that seems to me to be the mindset of some of the remarks that I've seen on this forum.
You are welcome to believe what you want.
There is a lot that you don't know about your fellow Forumites.
There is a lot that you don't know about your fellow Forumites.
I have been in forums long enough to not even care what people claim to be. It is impossible to believe anything. I judge them by what they say instead of what they claim to be.
I spend a lot of time in on-line discussions about my favorite sports teams. There are always guys claiming to have "inside connections". Sometimes one shows up who is actually telling the truth, but you can usually spot the bullshitters pretty quickly.
Originally posted by fredtoast: I have been in forums long enough to not even care what people claim to be. It is impossible to believe anything. I judge them by what they say instead of what they claim to be.
I spend a lot of time in on-line discussions about my favorite sports teams. There are always guys claiming to have "inside connections". Sometimes one shows up who is actually telling the truth, but you can usually spot the bullshitters pretty quickly.
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Lol, look at you trying to lawyer me here. I said the U.S. Government lies about things, even withholds the truth where it needs to. I'm well within my right to state that, and can do so without breaking my oath.
Actually what you said was that Gen. Mark Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Gen. Frank McKenzie, the commander of U.S. Central Command, and Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin ALL lied under oath in congressional hearings. You said the intelligence was excellent instead of flawed.
I don't know what kind of oath you took but if that does not violate it then it was meaningless.
Originally posted by fredtoast: Actually what you said was that Gen. Mark Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Gen. Frank McKenzie, the commander of U.S. Central Command, and Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin ALL lied under oath in congressional hearings. You said the intelligence was excellent instead of flawed.
I don't know what kind of oath you took but if that does not violate it then it was meaningless.
This is a meaningless post, and you are now literally trying to attack my character with a nonsense argument here.
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: This is a meaningless post, and you are now literally trying to attack my character with a nonsense argument here.
I was not attacking you. I was mocking the "oath" you claim you did not violate.
Originally posted by fredtoast: I was not attacking you. I was mocking the "oath" you claim you did not violate.
Perhaps you need to be mocked for having ZERO knowledge or understanding of an oath that you claim to be mocking.
Perhaps you need to be mocked for obviously having ZERO understanding of why certain folks here will not discuss "certain things", (past or present), on a foreign owned and operated website / forum. That's jaw dropping ignorance right there.
quote
Originally posted by williegoat:
A common trait in a few of our more vociferous leftists is a lack of real world experience coupled with a belief that they posses uncommon knowledge.
................................................
Leftists gotta Leftist ....and oaths are meaningless to Leftists
[This message has been edited by randye (edited 08-10-2023).]
...certain folks here will not discuss "certain things", (past or present), on a foreign owned and operated website / forum.
If "foreign" ownership and operation is an issue for "certain folks", they can always move on and go elsewhere. No one's forcing them to participate here.
Originally posted by randye: Perhaps you need to be mocked for having ZERO knowledge or understanding of an oath that you claim to be mocking.
I know plenty. I know that accusing the highest leaders of the US military of lieing under oath to congress does NOT nreak it. That means it is meaningless.
quote
Originally posted by randye: Perhaps you need to be mocked for obviously having ZERO understanding of why certain folks here will not discuss "certain things", (past or present), on a foreign owned and operated website / forum. That's jaw dropping ignorance right there.
What "certain things" are not being discussed? Certainly not the US military intelligence report leading up to the withdrawal from Afghanistan. 82TA has been telling us all about it. He says it was not flawed at all like the military leaders testified before congress. Instead he has assured us it was "excellent".
What "certain things" are not being discussed? Certainly not the US military intelligence report leading up to the withdrawal from Afghanistan. 82TA has been telling us all about it. He says it was not flawed at all like the military leaders testified before congress. Instead he has assured us it was "excellent".
You can say whatever you want. It doesn't change the reality that we're all living right now. I think honestly... that what I find the most fascinating is people like you. Now... I KNOW that deep down, you actually don't believe half the stuff you say. We all kind of recognize that. I'm not sure if you are aware that we all recognize that... but most everyone here does know this. The question I have is WHY you put up this front. Is this a win/lose game for you? Is it just simple competitiveness like in sports?
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: You can say whatever you want. It doesn't change the reality that we're all living right now. I think honestly... that what I find the most fascinating is people like you. Now... I KNOW that deep down, you actually don't believe half the stuff you say. We all kind of recognize that. I'm not sure if you are aware that we all recognize that... but most everyone here does know this. The question I have is WHY you put up this front. Is this a win/lose game for you? Is it just simple competitiveness like in sports?
There are several leftists on here who are so focused on trying to prove their superiority that they themselves have lost track of what they believe.
One major difference between them and me is the fact that I don’t care what they think. They struggle to gain our respect, but I place no value on theirs.
sounds like some kind of microscopic parasite or a substance used to make pyrotechnics.
