Excerpt from the New York Times "How Years of Israeli Failures on Hamas Led to a Devastating Attack." Scroll back just a short ways in this thread to see where it first came into the discussion.
I couldn't help but notice that quite a bit in the article (to include the title) were omitted by yourself. All is not well in Gaza.
Amid war, some Palestinians rage against another target: Their own rulers
But I don't see any practical alternative to what the IDF has undertaken, to date, since the Hamas-led atrocities of October 7.
Thank you, I appreciate the honest reply.
I see few options for the Israelis. When facing an adversary that is wholly committed to killing their citizens and destroying their country. Their only option is to counter with the total defeat of the adversary and those who support that adversary. I'm not sure there is an innocent citizen in Gaza but those who maybe better adhere to the Israeli warnings.
I think it's important to recognize here that... ALL the Left-Leaning people in this forum, support Hamas / Palestine, while everyone on the right is either totally indifferent, or supports Israel's right to defend itself.
This is reminding me a lot of what we read about in the beginning of WW2... the left (Democrats) were mostly in support of Hitler. They (as they do today) hated the Jews, and generally were supportive of NAZI Germany. It wasn't until we were begged, and then attacked, that our Democrat president got involved in the war.
I think it's important to recognize here that... ALL the Left-Leaning people in this forum, support Hamas / Palestine, while everyone on the right is either totally indifferent, or supports Israel's right to defend itself.
This is reminding me a lot of what we read about in the beginning of WW2... the left (Democrats) were mostly in support of Hitler. They (as they do today) hated the Jews, and generally were supportive of NAZI Germany. It wasn't until we were begged, and then attacked, that our Democrat president got involved in the war.
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: I think it's important to recognize here that... ALL the Left-Leaning people in this forum, support Hamas / Palestine, while everyone on the right is either totally indifferent, or supports Israel's right to defend itself.
This tribalism mentality that you are so caught up in, where everyone and everything is dumbed down to either "Left" or "Right", without any other distinctions, is absurd.
I'd like to see better for many of the people who are commonly identified as "Palestinians." Not the recalcitrant ones, who are sympathetic to Hamas or who do not want to coexist with Israel. But all the other ones—and there are too many of those to ignore.
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Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: ALL the Left-Leaning people in this forum, support Hamas / Palestine
What a misleading assertion! And what's this elision of "Hamas / Palestine" as if the two words are synonymous? That's just "bull."
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Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: This is reminding me a lot of what we read about in the beginning of WW2... the left (Democrats) were mostly in support of Hitler. They (as they do today) hated the Jews, and generally were supportive of NAZI Germany. It wasn't until we were begged, and then attacked, that our Democrat president got involved in the war.
That's like pointing to a jar filled with marbles of all the various colors and calling it a jar filled with "white marbles." It's Wichita-esque—and that's not good.
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 11-02-2023).]
I think it's important to recognize here that... ALL the Left-Leaning people in this forum, support Hamas / Palestine, while everyone on the right is either totally indifferent, or supports Israel's right to defend itself.
This is reminding me a lot of what we read about in the beginning of WW2... the left (Democrats) were mostly in support of Hitler. They (as they do today) hated the Jews, and generally were supportive of NAZI Germany. It wasn't until we were begged, and then attacked, that our Democrat president got involved in the war.
Using the term ALL paints with a very broad brush.
rinse just posted that he doesn't see any other option for Israel, and others on the Forum have also put blame on Hamas. I see no outright support of Hamas, but I do see concern for those trapped in Gaza that are in the crossfire.
In the national media I see a lot of sentiment for the victims of this war, and more support for a ceasefire. Very few there have come out supporting the actions of Hamas.
War is Hell, and Innocents die on both sides. War should b horrible and costly, so that humankind avoids it as much as possible.
But humankind must confront evil, and destroy it at every opportunity.
I think it's important to recognize here that... ALL the Left-Leaning people in this forum, support Hamas / Palestine, while everyone on the right is either totally indifferent, or supports Israel's right to defend itself.
This is reminding me a lot of what we read about in the beginning of WW2... the left (Democrats) were mostly in support of Hitler. They (as they do today) hated the Jews, and generally were supportive of NAZI Germany. It wasn't until we were begged, and then attacked, that our Democrat president got involved in the war.
no the demo's were the CON'S who supported jim crow
Gop were mostly ISOLATIONIST WHO DID NOT WANT TO SELL ARMS TO ENGLAND WHO WERE AGAINST LEND/LEASE OR ESCORTS FOR GOODS GOING TO ENGLAND
your version of history is as warped as your current ideas about a lying cheating rump's leadership
While I don't pretend to understand how anyone could come up with such an idea, I'm not surprised it's been posted. Not being a big DJT fan, I can honestly say that his policies kept those forces who intend harm to Israel and US harm were sidelined. It's the Biden Administration that opened Pandora's Box by lifting oil sanctions and giving money to our adversaries.
President Joe Biden’s got a gun problem – one that’s much bigger than the federal charges his son Hunter Biden faces in court.
The surprise terror attacks by Hamas into Israel were made possible, in part, because of U.S. arms left behind in Afghanistan by the Biden administration. Those arms have found their way to another battlefield. Startling images showed Hamas terrorists rampaging through Israeli villages. Some images appeared to show Hamas terrorists armed with U.S.-made military arms. Some of the hundreds of thousands of small arms abandoned to Taliban terrorists in 2021 have been smuggled to Hamas terrorists and were used to kill innocent men, women and children.
Later reports detailed that The White House left $7 billion in weapons and equipment in the wake of the ill-fated Afghanistan withdrawal. That consisted of 600,000 weapons – including 350,000 M-4 and M-16 rifles, 60,000 machine guns and 25,000 grenade launchers. That’s on top of the 23,825 Humvees in Afghanistan, including armored gun truck variants, and nearly 900 combat vehicles, all of which are in the hands of the Taliban, a terror organization that is the avowed enemy of the United States.
Personally speaking, I believe any idiot could have and should have seen the end result of the Afghan withdrawl well before it ever took place. The Upper Brass advised the "President" of what was likely to happen, guess what, it did.
Rams
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 11-02-2023).]
For many decades, up until this month, the answer was simple. If Hamas (and others like Hamas) would cease aggression, there would be peace. If Israel laid down their arms, there would be no Israel.
Now, that option is gone. It is unfortunate, but only one option remains.
As I said on the previous page, some people will never stop fighting. These very pages are proof of that.
For many decades, up until this month, the answer was simple. If Hamas (and others like Hamas) would cease aggression, there would be peace. If Israel laid down their arms, there would be no Israel.
Now, that option is gone. It is unfortunate, but only one option remains.
As I said on the previous page, some people will never stop fighting. These very pages are proof of that.
So, you think that this new Hamas-Israel war is Biden's fault? That it didn't happen while Trump was President, because... Trump was President?
This is how Hamas managed to inflict about 48 hours of terror in the south of Israel before the IDF arrived in sufficient numbers and with sufficient force to regain control of the situation.
I don't think that Hamas could have done anything like this while Trump was President, because Hamas had to figure it out first. This was a roll-out of a new and much more sophisticated terror capability that Hamas may not have even started working on until—until, but not because—Biden replaced Trump in the Oval Office.
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Israeli officials firmly believed that “The Barrier” — a nearly 40-mile-long reinforced concrete wall above and below ground, completed in 2021 — would hermetically seal off Gaza. There was also a surveillance system at the border based almost exclusively on cameras, sensors and remote-operated “sight-shooter” systems, four senior Israeli military officers told The Times.
Senior Israeli military officials believed that the combination of remote surveillance and machine-gun systems with the formidable wall would make it almost impossible to infiltrate Israel, and thus reduce the need for a large number of soldiers to be stationed at the bases.
But Hamas’s attack exposed the fragility of that technology. The group used explosive drones that damaged the cellular antennas and the remote firing systems that protected the fence between Gaza and Israel.
To get around Israel’s powerful surveillance technology, Hamas fighters also appeared to enforce strict discipline among the group’s ranks to not discuss its activities on mobile phones. This allowed them to pull off the attack without detection, one European official said.
The group most likely divided its fighters into smaller cells, each probably only trained for a specific objective. That way, the rank and file did not understand the scale of the attacks they were preparing for and could not give away the operation if caught, a European official said, based on his analysis of how the attack unfolded and from the videos the group disseminated from the operation.
Hamas may have learned such operational discipline from Hezbollah, which has long confused Israeli forces on the battlefield by dividing its fighters into smaller units of friends or relatives, according to Lebanese officials with ties to the group. If the fighters speak openly on cellphones to coordinate military operations, Lebanese officials with ties to the group said, part of their code is to speak in childhood memories — for example, asking to meet up in a field where they once played together.
Hamas claimed that 35 drones took part in the opening strike, including the Zawari, an explosive-laden drone.
“We started receiving messages that there was a raid on every reporting line,” testified one soldier, who was at the Gaza Division base on the day of the invasion, in a conversation with the “Hamakom Hachi Ham Bagehinom” (“The Hottest Place in Hell”) website.
“On every reporting line, swarms of terrorists were coming in,” the soldier added. “The forces did not have time to come and stop it. There were swarms of terrorists, something psychotic, and we were simply told that our only choice was to take our feet and flee for our lives.”
In a conversation with military investigators two weeks after the attack, soldiers who survived the assault testified that the Hamas training was so precise that they damaged a row of cameras and communication systems so that “all our screens turned off in almost the exact same second.” The result of all this was a near total blindness on the morning of the attack.
After the fighting had stopped, Israeli soldiers found hand-held radios on the dead bodies of some of the Hamas militants — the same radios that Israeli intelligence officials had decided a year ago were no longer worth monitoring.
"How Years of Israeli Failures on Hamas Led to a Devastating Attack" Ronen Bergman, Mark Mazzetti and Maria Abi-Habib for the New York Times; October 29, 2023; updated October 31, 2023. https://www.nytimes.com/202...ce-hamas-attack.html
So, you think that this new Hamas-Israel war is Biden's fault?
I believe that President Biden displayed his internal fortitude and inability to lead with the Afghan withdrawal, set the stage and emboldened the rest of our adversaries. They (and I) see him as a weak leader who speaks loudly but is afraid to use the big stick.
So far, our troops in the middle east have had 28 attacks since the Oct 7th HAMAS raid. Constant warning of Don't, Don't, Don't! All we've done is take out two warehouses with no fatalities being reported. Yeah, it takes real balls to destroy a warehouse or two. Would this be happening with the previous President? I doubt it but, there's no doubt in my mind more than two warehouses would have been destroyed.
Something you should remember or know is that I've never been a fan of DJT. Admittedly, I liked most of his decisions/policies but, I didn't like him.
Rams
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 11-02-2023).]
I think it's important to recognize here that... ALL the Left-Leaning people in this forum, support Hamas / Palestine, while everyone on the right is either totally indifferent, or supports Israel's right to defend itself.
I think it's important to recognize here that... this is a new low for you. You're now spreading blatant lies about members of this forum. Is fredtoast still living rent-free in your head? Might be time to take a reading again.
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Originally posted by olejoedad:
Using the term ALL paints with a very broad brush.
rinse just posted that he doesn't see any other option for Israel, and others on the Forum have also put blame on Hamas. I see no outright support of Hamas, but I do see concern for those trapped in Gaza that are in the crossfire.
Joe, thanks for speaking up. I have to admit that I'm rather shocked and disappointed that Todd would stoop so low so as to state what he did.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 11-02-2023).]
We've talked about this before Rinse, so I'll repeat it.
Russia only began moving troops to the border in early March of 2021... after it was clear that Trump was not going to win the presidency in a court battle. That right there emphasizes the fact that Putin ONLY intended to do this when Biden was president.
That poll I sent you... some 67% of Americans believed the war in Ukraine never would have happened if Trump was still president.
After Afghanistan, Ukraine, etc... everyone is doing what they can while Biden is still president because they know he's unlikely to do anything... only passively. Trump is a wildcard... he blew up a major political leader (Defense Director) in Iran... which by any stretch of the word is an absolute act of war. People know that Trump does these things... and like the situation or not, Democrats are viewed as weak in the world stage. They ALWAYS have...
So Joe is 100% correct here. It only bothers you because you view this as a win/lose game. I'd become a Democrat tomorrow if JFK Jr. was the Democrat primary winner and Trump wasn't on the Republican ticket. Watch how fast I'd shift party affiliation...
I think it's important to recognize here that... this is a new low for you. You're now spreading blatant lies about members of this forum. Is fredtoast still living rent-free in your head? Might be time to take a reading again.
No... I'm just really tired of the left. I was a Democrat before... I voted Democrat for a long time... but things have changed. And you people are absolutely insane. I've really lost any sympathy or empathy I had for the left. Sorry Patrick... I mean that. It's not only fact that the left suffers significantly from mental illness, but you guys actually are crazy. And when I look at history, nearly every horrible thing that the United States has done, it was done under Democrat leadership. I mean literally every single thing, you guys have been on the wrong side of history. So yeah... I've stopped caring and trying to be compassionate. I have Democrat friends, and we just don't talk politics... mostly because they know how ****ed up Biden is. Even the communist in our friend group doesn't talk about that **** anymore. But you guys... you're in it until the bitter end.
And no, I haven't thought about Fredtoast since he last posted under a pseudonym what... like 2 weeks ago? He apparently does live in your head since you keep bringing him up. And once again... in a post about a particular topic, you're now going to deflect and go off talking about me or this person, or that person... as usual...
And once again... in a post about a particular topic, you're now going to deflect and go off talking about me or this person, or that person... as usual...
Sez the guy who chased fredtoast around the forum, continually baiting him in thread after thread with the accusation that he exhibited symptoms of Asperger's Syndrome. Isn't that right, Dr Todd? It reminded me of the harassment that Boondawg was forced to endure here for years.
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Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
And you people are absolutely insane. I've really lost any sympathy or empathy I had for the left. Sorry Patrick... I mean that. It's not only fact that the left suffers significantly from mental illness, but you guys actually are crazy.
Todd, you are the one who's talking/acting like a "crazy" person. IMO, you need to step back and reassess your involvement in P&R. It does not bring out the best in you.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 11-02-2023).]
Originally posted by Patrick: Sez the guy who chased fredtoast around the forum, continually baiting him in thread after thread with the accusation that he exhibited symptoms of Asperger's Syndrome. Isn't that right, Dr Todd? It reminded me of the harassment that Boondawg was forced to endure here for years.
Sez the guy who chased fredtoast around the forum, continually baiting him in thread after thread with the accusation that he exhibited symptoms of Asperger's Syndrome. Isn't that right, Dr Todd? It reminded me of the harassment that Boondawg was forced to endure here for years.
Todd, you are the one who's talking/acting like a "crazy" person. IMO, you need to step back and reassess your involvement in P&R. It does not bring out the best in you.
You're STILL talking about Fredtoast Patrick, why? And it's really odd that you see me as baiting him... because that was literally his thing on here for anyone who disagreed with him. So, no, I didn't bait him. You can go back and look... and yes, he very clearly had ASD. I mentioned it because he talked about a sex dungeon in response to my daughter, and talked about bestiality... and God knows what other insane things he talked about that I stayed out of.
Patrick... I'm tired of trying to be nice to people like you. Half my family is Jewish. Literally everyone on my wife's side, including my wife. For the most part, almost every one of them are Democrat... but they're finally starting to wake up to what they've been supporting (thank God...). It got me to realize that all this time, I've tried my best to deal with liberal nonsense. Ideas that are exceptionally destructive... and then I thought to myself. If my neighbor was a Bolshevic, a Peronista, or a NAZI... should I expect to continue to be supportive and kind to your viewpoints? NO. Just look at the state of the world right now? This country is a complete disaster... we've been totally overrun by illegal immigrants, we had the largest transfer of wealth in history to the 1%... initiated by the Democrats. The price of goods are more than 2x what they were just 2 years ago. Honestly Patrick... if I wasn't making what I do... I have no idea how other people are able to survive. But that's the thing, I know they aren't... people are putting everything on their credit card.
Sorry Patrick, I'm tired. Literally... almost every single bad thing the United States has done in its history... the Democrat party was responsible for it. And for the past 20+ years, I've been expected to deal with insane indoctrination from the left telling me that really... when the Democrats did bad things, they were actually Republicans at the time... and I've endured comments that me, or people like me are racist, bigoted... non-stop. No... **** that Patrick. Your ideology is ****ed up. And you tell me that I'm not bringing out my best to this forum. I'm not the one here with the problem.
EDIT: And why is every post of yours always have to change the conversation from a topic, to the individuals. Are you ever capable of talking about actual topics, and not immediately changing the discussion to talk about the individuals discussing the information? This is your go-to deflection every single time.
[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 11-03-2023).]
It was on the news yesterday that the Russian group Wagner will be helping Hezbollah with a surface to air system, the SA-22 Greyhound. For those who may not know this weapon system, here's a link so as to explain this weapon system.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wi...ntsir_missile_system
Wiki does a much better job of describing it then I can do off of memory.
Regardless, although (to my knowledge) it's just a threat/rumor that Wagner will deploy this system to assist Hezbollah, this still shows that Putin is stirring the pot. Russia supporting this was from a distance gives the US something else to deal with.
The good thing for the Israelis is that this system can be located once it goes active with it's radar and can be taken out if, the Israelis (or the US) can draw it out.
We've talked about this before Rinse, so I'll repeat it.
Russia only began moving troops to the border in early March of 2021... after it was clear that Trump was not going to win the presidency in a court battle. That right there emphasizes the fact that Putin ONLY intended to do this when Biden was president.
That poll I sent you... some 67% of Americans believed the war in Ukraine never would have happened if Trump was still president.
After Afghanistan, Ukraine, etc... everyone is doing what they can while Biden is still president because they know he's unlikely to do anything... only passively. Trump is a wildcard... he blew up a major political leader (Defense Director) in Iran... which by any stretch of the word is an absolute act of war. People know that Trump does these things... and like the situation or not, Democrats are viewed as weak in the world stage. They ALWAYS have...
So [olejoedad] is 100% correct here. It only bothers you because you view this as a win/lose game. I'd become a Democrat tomorrow if JFK Jr. was the Democrat primary winner and Trump wasn't on the Republican ticket. Watch how fast I'd shift party affiliation...
No. It bothers me because it's a case (another case) where you are drawing conclusions that are too large to be supported by what you call "evidence."
What was said between Biden's Secretary of State, Antony Blinken, and Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov, when the two had conversations just before Putin ordered the Russian forces that he had positioned around Ukraine to attack? This was the last card that was played by the Biden administration in their efforts to stop Russia from attacking Ukraine. I have not seen or read any of the details of those Blinken-Lavrov conversations. Have you?
Without that kind of "insider" information, I don't know what to make of these Biden v. Trump comparisons that you are making, about Ukraine.
Maybe there's an "Earth Two" where Trump was elected to a second term as President... and where this Trump conceded everything that Putin wanted on Ukraine and possibly, even beyond Ukraine, without any pushback from the U.S. side.
Do you want to sign up for that?
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 11-03-2023).]
Maybe there's an "Earth Two" where Trump was elected to a second term as President... and where this Trump conceded everything that Putin wanted on Ukraine and possibly, even beyond Ukraine, without any pushback from the U.S. side.
These are delusional hypotheticals to make you feel better about what's happened. It is NOT fact, and has no bearing on literally anything since it hasn't and cannot happen. It also doesn't change the fact that the majority of this country (as I've shown you in multiple polls that I've posted) believes neither Ukraine or Israeli war would be occurring if Trump was still president.
These are delusional hypotheticals to make you feel better about what's happened. It is NOT fact, and has no bearing on literally anything since it hasn't and cannot happen. It also doesn't change the fact that the majority of this country (as I've shown you in multiple polls that I've posted) believes neither Ukraine or Israeli war would be occurring if Trump was still president.
Biden and LBJ, two peas in a pod. And Ike warned us.
We should have had AuH2O in '64 and Trump in 2020.
You know what they say: "Hindsight is 20/20."
Believe it or not, in 1964 I got black framed glasses because I wanted to be like Barry Goldwater.
[This message has been edited by williegoat (edited 11-03-2023).]
Believe it or not, in 1964 I got black framed glasses because I wanted to be like Barry Goldwater.
No doubt about hindsight but, I'm curious. Hopefully, Lady Gaga had little effect on you. Just pull'n yer chain Willie.
Back to the thread topic, HAMAS is pushing for a cease fire from Israel, Israel is emphatically saying no. At least not until the HAMAS hostages are released. I whole heartedly agree with this.
Rams
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 11-03-2023).]
Originally posted by rinselberg: No. It bothers me because it's a case (another case) where you are drawing conclusions that are too large to be supported by what you call "evidence."
I was wrong rinselberg. You might make it as a comedian.
Your quote above by the man who accepts MSNBC, CNN, NBC, the NY Times, etc as evidence.
Originally posted by cliffw: I was wrong rinselberg. You might make it as a comedian. Your quote above by the man who accepts MSNBC, CNN, NBC, the NY Times, etc as evidence.
I keep seeing this "line" from 82-T/A and some others here, that if Trump had been elected to a second term, instead of losing to Biden, then we wouldn't be witnessing these wars in Ukraine and now, between Israel and Hamas.
How do the people who believe this premise explain it?
How was Trump going to dissuade Putin from launching this large scale war by Russia on Ukraine?
How was Trump going to prevent Hamas from swarming Israel with thousands of well-armed terrorists, after figuring out how to overwhelm Israel's high tech security barriers and taking advantage of Israel's lax security posture in the south?
You can bring up a point or two, but when you put it all together—whatever you think you have—it's not very convincing.
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 11-03-2023).]
Hassan Nasrallah, the leader of Lebanon's large and well-armed Shia militia Hezbollah, just appeared onscreen in his first public remarks since the Hamas-Israel situation went ballistic on October 7.
I think he's looking better groomed than the last time I saw him. As if his beard has been trimmed more evenly. The metal rimmed eyeglasses look new to me, and stylistically on point for a Muslim "VIP." That black turban looks newly laundered. The white turban I remember seemed like it wasn't fresh. Of course, white can easily look soiled, but black? As long as it hasn't had time to attract lint or dandruff...
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 11-03-2023).]
Just watched on TV the Hezbollah leader state unequivocally that the Gaza situation is all the US's fault as the Great Satan and that Israel is just the puppet doing our bidding. Or something close to that.
Knowing that should make us all feel vert secure with the millions of border crosser Biden let in the country. You know, the ones they caught and release but have no idea where they are and the 1.5 million or so got aways. National Security in Jeopardy as 70,000 ‘Special Interest Aliens’ from Terrorism-Prone Nations Surge Across U.S. Borders, Fueling Immigration Crisis https://www.msn.com/en-us/n...4a0180ca8945c9343976 &ei=26
Rams
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 11-03-2023).]
I think it's important to recognize here that... ALL the Left-Leaning people in this forum, support Hamas / Palestine, while everyone on the right is either totally indifferent, or supports Israel's right to defend itself.
I think the pressure of backing a compulsively lying narcissistic flim-flam shyster like Trump is getting to you. Either that or you're trying to emulate him.
I think the pressure of backing a compulsively lying narcissistic flim-flam shyster like Trump is getting to you. Either that or you're trying to emulate him.
My comment regarding Trump took up 25% of my previous reply. Would you prefer I make some broad sweeping totally bogus condemnation of anyone/everyone who's ever leaned to the right?
These political "discussions" are just such a waste of Cliff's bandwidth.
Would this be happening with the previous President? I doubt it but, there's no doubt in my mind more than two warehouses would have been destroyed.
