Originally posted by theBDub: That’s just feeding into propaganda.
Last number I heard was approaching 8 million with thousands more heading this way. Call it whatever you wish but, that's about as open as it gets. The Biden Administration has made the Border Patrol the same as Walmart Greeters.
------------------ Rams Learning most of life's lessons the hard way. . You are only young once but, you can be immature indefinitely.
Originally posted by theBDub: This does happen, sure, but the volumes we are talking about are anything but “open border” as you call it. Tables 33 and 39 for your reference:
You’ll see a decline in removals, but you also see an increase in expulsions that show more net forced movement out of the country than in years prior (expulsions just began reporting with the Title 42 COVID response).
Biden flubbed hard on immigration. He presented immigration reform and it never went through. I don’t think he’s handled it well, at all. But to claim that it’s been like an open border? That’s just feeding into propaganda.
You are doing what is called a "stat crime." You're presenting a set of statistics and facts, and using them to represent a different set of conclusions than what is being presented.
Since January 2021, there have been more than 4 million illegals "set free" in the United States. These are the ones that have been "caught," processed, let go, and given court dates, many of which do not even occur for another 10 years. The actual number of border crossings is closer to 9 million at this point.
This year has been especially bad, as global inflation has led to impoverished nations basically being completely devoid of any welfare and / or work. The influx has resulted in local, city, county, and state welfare services being completely taxed. Things like homeless shelters are overrun and many of the people living on the streets are illegals. The worst hit are hospitals. These people do not have healthcare, and because the law ensures that anyone cannot be turned away in an emergency room, it's resulting in not for profit hospitals (which is the majority of them), being overwhelmed. There are some 600+ hospitals that are likely to go out of business within the next two years.
It's really, really bad. Just because they've arrested and expelled people, does not mean they aren't allowing them in. DHS has literally opened the gates, and continuously punishes states that try to block border crossings.
You cannot have open-immigration and a welfare state at the same time... it just doesn't work.
[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 11-27-2023).]
You are doing what is called a "stat crime." You're presenting a set of statistics and facts, and using them to represent a different set of conclusions than what is being presented.
Since January 2021, there have been more than 4 million illegals "set free" in the United States. These are the ones that have been "caught," processed, let go, and given court dates, many of which do not even occur for another 10 years. The actual number of border crossings is closer to 9 million at this point.
This year has been especially bad, as global inflation has led to impoverished nations basically being completely devoid of any welfare and / or work. The influx has resulted in local, city, county, and state welfare services being completely taxed. Things like homeless shelters are overrun and many of the people living on the streets are illegals. The worst hit are hospitals. These people do not have healthcare, and because the law ensures that anyone cannot be turned away in an emergency room, it's resulting in not for profit hospitals (which is the majority of them), being overwhelmed. There are some 600+ hospitals that are likely to go out of business within the next two years.
It's really, really bad. Just because they've arrested and expelled people, does not mean they aren't allowing them in. DHS has literally opened the gates, and continuously punishes states that try to block border crossings.
You cannot have open-immigration and a welfare state at the same time... it just doesn't work.
No, I’m showing numbers. DHS estimates that it now encounters about 78% of all crossings (not half, which is the only way I can think to get to your 9M number). And it has been turning them back and away on par with or higher than previous years, we just have more coming than before (and more from countries without return agreements). Those encounters are not all let go in the U.S.—if their home country has a return agreement, they’re typically returned.
Again, I’m not arguing it’s a failure. But it’s not some open border. I’m going to keep arguing that point because I think that’s a gross misrepresentation of the facts. Facts that I’ve posted with links, mind you.
And for what it’s worth, I agree you can’t have open borders with a welfare state, which is why I’m not in favor of our welfare systems.
Originally posted by theBDub: And for what it’s worth, I agree you can’t have open borders with a welfare state, which is why I’m not in favor of our welfare systems.
I'm very glad to learn this but, I don't agree with open borders nor, a welfare state.. No other country on this rock we call home allows such freedom of movement from one country to another. We have an immigration system, we should make it work. The "Welfare State" we have developed has done little to support people going back to work and pulling their own weight. ------------------ Rams Learning most of life's lessons the hard way. . You are only young once but, you can be immature indefinitely.
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 11-27-2023).]
Originally posted by theBDub: It ain’t open. Trust me, I wish it were more open (and with comprehensive immigration reform). But any claim that it is, is a lie.
For Republican leaders: It's getting an unlimited number of H1Bs and work VISAs to do everything from the expensive tech jobs, to the picking of produce on the farms. For Democrat leaders: It's getting a fresh new batch of impoverished Democrat-leaning voters that they can put on welfare, and make dependent upon the Government.
Throughout my adult life, I have always taken advantage of any opportunity to learn from someone who has had different life experiences. I have talked to many immigrants, both legal and illegal, from six of the seven continents and one thing that I have learned is that they are always grateful to the party that made it possible.
I have told the story here before, of a Cuban friend who, along with his brother, escaped on a raft. Despite his strong conservative beliefs and my attempts to sway him, he will always love Bill Clinton because Clinton was president when he was granted asylum.
The Democrats know this and will always take advantage of this natural human tendency.
[This message has been edited by williegoat (edited 11-28-2023).]
rinselberg How did the most of the Cuban's get here? Growing up in south FL. I remember this quite well. Fidel emptied the prisons. Working for a company that had a strong Cuban presence I can tell you that they where not happy with influx of criminals.
Originally posted by cliffw: What is comprehensive immigration reform ?
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Originally posted by blackrams: Based on what my Democrat friends tell me, it's anything that will get more Dem votes.
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Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: For Republican leaders: It's getting an unlimited number of H1Bs and work VISAs to do everything from the expensive tech jobs, to the picking of produce on the farms. For Democrat leaders: It's getting a fresh new batch of impoverished Democrat-leaning voters that they can put on welfare, and make dependent upon the Government.
I know the goals. What's in the details ? Comprehensive immigration reform is just a talking point. Why does it seemingly always fail. I have never seen it debated by our overlords. I have never seen a bill from Congress concerning comprehensive immigration reform.
Originally posted by cliffw: I know the goals. What's in the details ? Comprehensive immigration reform is just a talking point. Why does it seemingly always fail. I have never seen it debated by our overlords. I have never seen a bill from Congress concerning comprehensive immigration reform.
It's been debated a few times, the problem is that every bill that's been proposed (even by some Republicans), has amnesty in there. No one wants ~30 million people voting for new welfare entitlements at the expense of everyone else. Only the dim-witted and the takers support it.
An Algerian immigrant in Ireland stabbed children and their teacher. The people are up in arms.
All of the news is about "radical right wing anti immigration riots in Dublin", there is hardly anything about the peaceful Islamist school stabbing that started it. Sound familiar?
I've not seen anything that remarks the stabbings of the Irish schoolchildren and their teacher as having an "Islamist" connection. I haven't seen a report that rules it out, either.
According to the Irish Times, the perpetrator was originally from Algeria, but he had lived in Ireland for over 20 years and was an Irish citizen when he committed this crime.
Of the three passersby who intervened to stop the knife-wielding assailant from doing even more harm or from fleeing the scene before the police arrived, two are recent immigrants to Ireland.
Alan Loren-Guille, age 17, arrived in Ireland fairly recently to pursue an ambition to become a chef. He was working as a culinary intern in an upscale restaurant in Dublin. He came from France, and is as "Caucasian as they come."
Caio Benicio, age 43, came to Ireland from Rio de Janeiro about a year ago, after the restaurant he owned was destroyed in a fire. He was working in Dublin to support his family in Brazil. He was employed as a food delivery service courier when he came upon the stabbing incident.
Alan Loren-Guille, left. Caio Benicio, right.
There is more reporting online about these two men and a third man who intervened to stop the assailant and expedite the arrest by police. They have all become notable "stories."
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 11-29-2023).]
I've not seen anything that remarks the stabbings of the Irish schoolchildren and their teacher as having an "Islamist" connection. I haven't seen a report that rules it out, either.
According to the Irish Times, the perpetrator was originally from Algeria, but he had lived in Ireland for over 20 years and was an Irish citizen when he committed this crime.
Of the three passersby who intervened to stop the knife-wielding assailant from doing even more harm or from fleeing the scene before the police arrived, two are recent immigrants to Ireland.
Alan Loren-Guille, age 17, arrived in Ireland fairly recently to pursue an ambition to become a chef. He was working as a culinary intern in an upscale restaurant in Dublin. He came from France, and is as "Caucasian as they come."
Caio Benicio, age 43, came to Ireland from Rio de Janeiro about a year ago, after the restaurant he owned was destroyed in a fire. He was working in Dublin to support his family in Brazil. He was employed as a food delivery service courier when he came upon the stabbing incident.
Alan Loren-Guille, left. Caio Benicio, right.
There is more reporting online about these two men and a third man who intervened to stop the assailant and expedite the arrest by police. They have all become notable "stories."
I think there's a difference between the modern day "refugee" from a lot of these countries, and immigrants (like my dad) who came from another country to seek better opportunity for work / follow their dreams. I don't think anyone is denouncing immigrants Rinse... at least I'm not. But Ireland has basically "imported" 125k immigrants in one year... which would likely be the equivalent to all of Biden's 9 million border crossers coming over in a single year (respectively).
I'd heard that this guy had been in Ireland for 23 years, but that he was not a citizen, and had been on welfare the entire time he's lived there (Don't know if that's true or not, not really my problem). The anger I suppose is less about the fact that there is a mentally ill man stabbing people, and more about the fact that the media had tried to downplay the effects of unchecked immigration. It was, for that week it seems, the straw that broke the camel's back.
“I’m a Republican,” Sununu replied while dodging a direct answer on whether he would vote for the former president who is often a target of his criticism. “I just want Republicans to win; that’s all I care about.”
in other words, he cares less about principles, ideals, and America, than he cares about His Team chalking up a Win!! Better a dictator who calls himself "Republican" and the destruction of the country, than a Democrat holding office no matter how he actually governs.
This is the way most Republicans think IMHO. They consider themselves "Republican" as part of their identity in the same way that very religious people identify themselves with their church (how many times have you met somebody whose first statement of who they are is "I'm a Baptist (or whatever)" right after their name. And they all think Democrats feel the same way.
What's scary is how many more millions WILL vote for him next year having confirmation that not only is he a lying, vengeful, stupid pos..... but that he's also an insurrectionist, constitution hating, tax cheating, criminal piece of S
“I’m a Republican,” Sununu replied while dodging a direct answer on whether he would vote for the former president who is often a target of his criticism. “I just want Republicans to win; that’s all I care about.”
in other words, he cares less about principles, ideals, and America, than he cares about His Team chalking up a Win!! Better a dictator who calls himself "Republican" and the destruction of the country, than a Democrat holding office no matter how he actually governs.
This is the way most Republicans think IMHO. They consider themselves "Republican" as part of their identity in the same way that very religious people identify themselves with their church (how many times have you met somebody whose first statement of who they are is "I'm a Baptist (or whatever)" right after their name. And they all think Democrats feel the same way.
What's scary is how many more millions WILL vote for him next year having confirmation that not only is he a lying, vengeful, stupid pos..... but that he's also an insurrectionist, constitution hating, tax cheating, criminal piece of S
Well, that's one interpretation. Or could it be that he believes in what Republicans support and how they believe the country should lead? Could it be that he sees the Dems path as one that leads us to third world status? I don't expect some (who drank more than their share of the Dem "Political Kool Aide") to agree but, the Dem path has shown us their priorities are simply to stay in power regardless of what's good for the country.
------------------ Rams Learning most of life's lessons the hard way. . You are only young once but, you can be immature indefinitely.
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 11-29-2023).]
“I’m a Republican,” Sununu replied while dodging a direct answer on whether he would vote for the former president who is often a target of his criticism. “I just want Republicans to win; that’s all I care about.”
in other words, he cares less about principles, ideals, and America, than he cares about His Team chalking up a Win!! Better a dictator who calls himself "Republican" and the destruction of the country, than a Democrat holding office no matter how he actually governs.
This is the way most Republicans think IMHO. They consider themselves "Republican" as part of their identity in the same way that very religious people identify themselves with their church (how many times have you met somebody whose first statement of who they are is "I'm a Baptist (or whatever)" right after their name. And they all think Democrats feel the same way.
What's scary is how many more millions WILL vote for him next year having confirmation that not only is he a lying, vengeful, stupid pos..... but that he's also an insurrectionist, constitution hating, tax cheating, criminal piece of S
Who is it on here that likes to say, "Your side lost"?
It is not very convincing when you rail against party loyalty by quoting verbatim from your pirate preachers.
Well, that's one interpretation. Or could it be that he believes in what Republicans support and how they believe the country should lead? Could it be that he sees the Dems path as one that leads us to third world status? I don't expect some (who drank more than their share of the Dem "Political Kool Aide") to agree but, the Dem path has shown us their priorities are simply to stay in power regardless of what's good for the country.
the koolaid gang were believers in fairy tales the same end times BS I warn about in the cults
if one is not a believer in a cult one does not drink any fatal beverage WHEN TOLD TO BY A CULT LEADER
and once again I AN NOT NOW NOR HAVE I EVER BEEN A DEMO
i JUST HATE NAZI FASCIST AUTHORITARIAN RWNJ CON'S DOUBLE ESP THE ONES WHO WANT BUYBULL LAWS IMPOSED ON OUR NATION
your party once was a balanced party with old school cheap con's and flaming liberals who hated the southern racists demo's
ike lead the troops into the schools at first
but LBJ was hated for results that gave us the original NUT-CON NIXON scum> then raygun > BuSh2>rump each more damaging to facts and freedoms who ran out the moderates and the liberals and call anyone not an extreme RWNJ a RINO so now we have lying thief who is loved for being an lying thief so CONsistently to the extreme right
are the demo any better for scam and scandals personally no but as a group far less mean and greedy long term WITH SOME BALANCE AND MODERATES
Originally posted by ray b:i JUST HATE NAZI FASCIST AUTHORITARIAN RWNJ CON'S DOUBLE ESP THE ONES WHO WANT BUYBULL LAWS IMPOSED ON OUR NATION
My wife is Jewish, and my dad was born in a shed during the NAZI occupation of the Netherlands because they took the family's business and house and used it for NAZI stuff. But all of that aside, I'm guessing you'd still lump me in with the "NAZI FASCIST AUTHORITARIAN RWNJ CONS."
So my question is, if I was down there in Miami at a car show, would you still have a beer with me?
I'm not sure how familiar you are with the current process, but it's extremely broken. I have employees who have multiple visa options available to them, all with different rules and restrictions. There are specific visas for specific countries (like Canada and Mexico), but they only last two years. There are specific visas for graduating students of "STEM" which is extremely broad, and those just last a couple years. The one I'm most familiar with, the H-1B, takes in "skilled" workers, but it's granted in a lottery system. Other visas take in unskilled workers for only very specific things, like farming. If you want to come to America, you have high credentials and an employer sponsor, and you apply... you may just not get in due to misfortune.
The entire concept of asylum is broken. Sometimes it's accepted at ports of entry, sometimes not. This system is abused because of the long wait times for a hearing and likelihood of prosecution. They can't fully contribute to the economy without further hoops. If folks aren't incentivized into this behavior, and instead incentivized through a clearer path to legal occupation, you'd see asylum seekers drastically rationalized, and you'd see more people coming here to work.
So let's do away with all of the complexity and lotteries and caps. Let in folks who want to work and contribute to our economy, including unskilled workers of any type. I'm generally in favor of virtually open borders, subject to security screening and rules around social program participation (i.e., can't just come here and get on welfare. Most social programs are bloated and should be done away with anyway, but since that's not realistic, at least limit those to citizens). Get rid of employer sponsorship, which is needlessly complicated and restricts open movement. Make the path to citizenship shorter and clearer.
And yes, some form of amnesty for those already here. It should be for those who have otherwise not committed crimes, but even that's not perfect. The crime rate of undocumented communities can't be accurately calculated because even victims don't want to work with authorities. It won't be perfect, but without amnesty, we won't be able to really solve this permanently.
Originally posted by theBDub: I'm not sure how familiar you are with the current process, but it's extremely broken. I have employees who have multiple visa options available to them, all with different rules and restrictions. There are specific visas for specific countries (like Canada and Mexico), but they only last two years. There are specific visas for graduating students of "STEM" which is extremely broad, and those just last a couple years. The one I'm most familiar with, the H-1B, takes in "skilled" workers, but it's granted in a lottery system. Other visas take in unskilled workers for only very specific things, like farming. If you want to come to America, you have high credentials and an employer sponsor, and you apply... you may just not get in due to misfortune.
The entire concept of asylum is broken. Sometimes it's accepted at ports of entry, sometimes not. This system is abused because of the long wait times for a hearing and likelihood of prosecution. They can't fully contribute to the economy without further hoops. If folks aren't incentivized into this behavior, and instead incentivized through a clearer path to legal occupation, you'd see asylum seekers drastically rationalized, and you'd see more people coming here to work.
So let's do away with all of the complexity and lotteries and caps. Let in folks who want to work and contribute to our economy, including unskilled workers of any type. I'm generally in favor of virtually open borders, subject to security screening and rules around social program participation (i.e., can't just come here and get on welfare. Most social programs are bloated and should be done away with anyway, but since that's not realistic, at least limit those to citizens). Get rid of employer sponsorship, which is needlessly complicated and restricts open movement. Make the path to citizenship shorter and clearer.
And yes, some form of amnesty for those already here. It should be for those who have otherwise not committed crimes, but even that's not perfect. The crime rate of undocumented communities can't be accurately calculated because even victims don't want to work with authorities. It won't be perfect, but without amnesty, we won't be able to really solve this permanently.
Thank you theBDub, .
I have been thinking about your post since you posted.
I need to know (looking) more about the different rules and restrictions of a particular visa. Also, why certain visas were authorized.
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Originally posted by theBDub: The entire concept of asylum is broken. Sometimes it's accepted at ports of entry, sometimes not.
It is my belief that one who wanted asylum could petition the US Embassy in their own country.
It is my belief that one who wanted asylum could petition the US Embassy in their own country.
I've said this previously but don't mind repeating myself, we have an immigration system, we can and should make it work.
The Biden Administration has bastardized what we have/had and now we have millions of people that the rest of us have to pay for just so the Dems can buy more votes in the upcoming years/elections. Such policies show just how desperate Dems are to stay in power. It's not about humanitarian reasons, it's all about future votes.
Rams
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 12-04-2023).]
Well, today CBP shut down the Lukeville crossing. They call it a remote crossing, not very busy, but I have been across there countless times from the mid '70s to the late '90s. I could tell some stories, but not yet.
Now here's the thing: they shut it down because they cannot handle the traffic...of Americans. If you are a northbound "immigrant", you are welcome to proceed, thank you very much.
If you have business across the border, or own property down there, you may still cross...at Nogales or San Luis. If you are headed to Puerto Penasco, this will add hours to your trip.
This is so stupid, even Kyrsten Sinema can see it.
Of course, the Dems still say that they have it all under control, no problemo.
Originally posted by williegoat: In the movie, Bogie’s character lives in Martinique and is propositioned to smuggle members of the French Resistance. In the book, he lives in Florida and smuggles Cubanos and Chinese.
Really? I know the "mainlanders" in those days didn't have the amazing variety of options that we have today, but was there really enough of an incentive for smugglers to load their boats with this kind of contraband?
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 12-04-2023).]
Really? I know the "mainlanders" in those days didn't have the amazing variety of options that we have today, but was there really enough of an incentive for smugglers to load their boats with this kind of contraband?
lots of board rum runners after the Gop nuts bans were stopped by FDR
Another mostly ridiculous meme. The figure on the right side represents Antifa, and Antifa is not at the center of gravity (so to speak) among Democrats. Antifa is Radical Left. It's more akin to Anarchism than to any Democratic Party perspective.
You don't see mainstream Democrats like Joe Biden, Kamala Harris, Hakeem Jeffries, Chuck Schumer and many of the other Democrats in Congress cozying up to Antifa, nor do you see Antifa showing any great liking for any of these mainstream Democrats and their colleagues.
So is this a Brain Dead meme? Pretty much. I'd rate it at a full five (5) "Porta-Potties" on the Full of "Chit" scale.
What say you?
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 12-08-2023).]
I've said this previously but don't mind repeating myself, we have an immigration system, we can and should make it work.
The Biden Administration has bastardized what we have/had and now we have millions of people that the rest of us have to pay for just so the Dems can buy more votes in the upcoming years/elections. Such policies show just how desperate Dems are to stay in power. It's not about humanitarian reasons, it's all about future votes.
Rams
Ron, with all due respect, we barely have a system. We have caps based on numbers from decades ago that don’t even try to consider recent history. We have lottery systems that lock out fantastic people. We have complex paperwork and timelines that’s hard to navigate for people who understand the system. And all of it existed before Biden.
We need an overhaul. Biden has made the issue worse, but most of the current issues rest on global conflicts and issues against our complex system, not this administration’s policies.
[This message has been edited by theBDub (edited 12-08-2023).]
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