Originally posted by NewDustin: The argument for DEI hiring goes something like:
P1. There is a difference in opportunities available, not just outcomes, for some groups ...
Wrong. The argument for DEI hiring is that outcomes for all colored people and genders should mirror the percentage of populations of all colored people and genders.
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Originally posted by NewDustin: The argument for DEI hiring goes something like:
P2. Those groups are equally capable of performing in the roles this lack of opportunity impacts C. Opportunities should be directly extended to those groups impacted by this gap
Correct. The argument for DEI hiring is that outcomes for all colored people and genders should mirror the percentage of populations of all colored people and genders.
Which is bullzhit ! Those groups are not equally capable of performing in the roles the rolls they have no experience in.
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Originally posted by NewDustin: If you believe that all gender and racial groups have the exact same access to opportunities, then DEI hiring/staffing/whatever will make no sense; you disagree with a core premise of their rationale.
There it is ! If you believe that all gender and racial groups do not have the exact same access to opportunities you are racist and sexist.
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Originally posted by NewDustin: If you assume a "brown woman" will naturally perform worse than a a more traditionally colored or gendered candidate, DEI hires will make no sense; again you disagree with a core premise of their rationale.
There it is again. Racism and sexism. What makes you think color or sex matters ? What makes you think "we" assume ?
Originally posted by NewDustin: Do you believe that everyone in the US has the exact same level of opportunity, and that no group suffers from any kind of lack of opportunities available to other groups? If so, what do you think accounts for the socio-economic differences amongst groups particular to our country?
Of course everyone does not have the exact same levels of opportunity. One can not graduate high school after completing 5th grade. Everyone does have the same level of opportunity to complete 5th grade and graduate high school.
The socio-economic differences are a direct result of making the most of opportunities that one facilitated. Sometimes doing better in life begins with how you parents did.
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Originally posted by NewDustin: SCOTUS did not strike down "affirmative action." They struck down the implementation of race-quota-based affirmative action in schools. I don't disagree with that. I also never said I agree with any particular implementation of Affirmative Action or DEI policies; I just described the rationale behind them. The SCOTUS decision even leaves room for DEI policies as long as they are not directly treating applicants differently based on race.
Race, gender, same prejudiced motive.
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Originally posted by NewDustin: I don't necessarily disagree with that: I think affirmative action quotas treat a symptom instead of the problem, and realistic equity policies need to address the underlying causes.
one made by old rich white guys ? or the courts about the same group with a few out voted exceptions legislative bodys SOS as above
ask the victims ? they never do that
well then what
massive fines for the exploiters slave owner or the banks who loaned the money to build the ship pay crews to get the slaves or the shipper who just sold cotton the slaves grew the mill owner who bought the slave grown cotton or mill workers who's job needed slave cotton or no job store who sold the final cloth or finished piece or almost all had a bit somewhere
maybe just stop screwing with them by the prison planet system in the USA stop redlines and job restriction and the cops shooting them on a whim job training and mental help instead of swat teams and tanks
really commit to kinder gentler less repression in rule laws and the enforcement of them
look at mr hill on a sunday drive to work jerked out of a car on a whim by a pig
end that kind of pig demands for unearned respect end putting people face down in the dirt by the pigs they seldom do that to old white rich guys not doing it to any one would be equality
Sloganeering of the CCP/PLA ! Drink a shot when Kamala blurts : ' Going Forward ' ' Our Democracy ' ' Gun Control ' ' Right Wing Media Censorship ' ' Voting Rights ' All of which are violations of the Constitution. You will have noticed that so far, no Dempartie representative has been convicted of treason, so far. [ uscode_house_gov_title18_chapter115 ] Merrick Garland detained on January 27, complaining about his rights being violated. Majorkas in the same court services van, claiming immunity. Consequences of corruption. The Dempartie Mob gets taken down. ~ Nuremberg Trials '46 The rounding up of foreign agents, dempartie communists, ccp/pla sycophants, blm, antifa, hamas, all the subversives. Held in detention at the Ellis Island Camps on the far Arizona border, the limestone quarries. Making America Great Again !
There it is again. Racism and sexism. What makes you think color or sex matters ? What makes you think "we" assume ?
Because there is so much hard proof that racism and sexism exist.
-Scientific studies showing that identical applications for housing or employment are treated differently if they have an "ethnic" name.
-Multiple court cases finding proof that police use racial profiling and treat minorities differently. Many cases involving law enforcement admiting to using racial profiling.
-The existence of groups who not only admit to their white supremist beliefs but actually brag about them.
-The popularity of racist content on-line where individuals can not be identified.
[This message has been edited by BingB (edited 09-10-2024).]
Originally posted by cliffw: What would be a realistic equity policy ?
Equity policies would generally be based on economic need, not race. But since minorities have higher poverty rates they would benefit more.
There are two huge basic steps we need to take to equalize opportunity in the United States.
--Equalize public education. Right now the public education system DECREASES EQUITY because the students that are already the wealthiest go to the best schools which just multiplies their advantage over the poor. All schools should be regulated by and equally funded by some state tax. And this means for ALL students. Not just the ones who have the resources to abandon a bad school.
--National health care. Every other industrialized country on the planet can do it, so we can to. Health insurance industry just carries too much weight. Insurance companies make about $40 billion a year in profits, and they provide zero health care. The cost of health care would drop dramatically if it did not include the cost of running insurance companies. But healthy care is another issue that DECREASES EQUITY. People with money get better health care so they are more healthy. Minor health issues are treated so they do not develop into major health issues. A serious injury or illness for just one single member of a family can take down an entire family. The number one cause of bankruptcies in the United States are medical bills.
Day care cost is the third thing, but it is not as big as the top 2. One of the major reasons many single women do not work is the cost of day care.
So biased, that as a matter of fact, they gave Trump time over and above what he should've been allotted. And it worked out fantastically! Trump was given more of an opportunity to make himself appear to be a rambling idiot. Seriously, how many times was it really necessary to bring up the border? It seemed to be his go-to response for almost every topic up for debate.
. Well, that was absurd. Kamala lying right to America's face, she can't help it, it's what she does, a lying politician, surprise, surprise, not. No rational person acquainted with reality could possibly vote for the grifting Dempartie Kommunist Klown Klan. ' How full of sheet is Kamala ? Right up to her neck ! ' Alinsky tactics in blatant view of all, 180 degrees from truth, on every dang topic, a total disassociation, incomprehensible disregard of sensibility. Apparently, obviously, the Dempartie strategy is to repeat the ' Orange man bad ' rhetoric, hoping to con the voters into endorsing the ripoff party. What they haven't yet discovered, is the illegal voters will overwhelmingly vote Trump, to preserve their new constitutional rights, having been denied them in their communist countries of origin. 525+ electoral votes, a rejection of the false party of pandering kommunist klowns, Kamala's Klowns. Come November, a new hope for America, President D.J.Trump making America Great Again ! ' Yay ! Trump ! ' ' Yeah, Punt Kamala's Klowns clear across Pennsylvania Avenue, far, far out of the White House ! '
[This message has been edited by Valkrie9 (edited 09-11-2024).]
Originally posted by BingB: Because there is so much hard proof that racism and sexism exist.
You think color or sex matters because there is proof of it ? Colored people sold other colored people into slavery. Do you have a point.
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Originally posted by BingB: -Scientific studies showing that identical applications for housing or employment are treated differently if they have an "ethnic" name.
That's a damn shame. Why are ... wait. You would still be right if you had said "that identical applications for housing or employment are treated differently if they have an colored name." Pocahontas Elizibeth Warren owes her career to being an Indian.
Being White is not an ethnicity ? White is not a color ?
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Originally posted by BingB: -Multiple court cases finding proof that police use racial profiling and treat minorities differently. Many cases involving law enforcement admiting to using racial profiling.
That is bullzhit. Profiling is a valuable tool.
The Black population in America is 15% of the total population of America. Yet they commit 30% of the violent crimes. According to the FBI Uniform Crime Reports, in 2008, black youths, who make up 16% of the youth population, accounted for 52% of juvenile violent crime arrests, including 58.5% of youth arrests for homicide and 67% for robbery.
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Originally posted by BingB: -The existence of groups who not only admit to their white supremist beliefs but actually brag about them.
As opposed to colored supremacist groups who admit to their colored supremacist beliefs ?
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Originally posted by BingB: -The popularity of racist content on-line where individuals can not be identified.
Originally posted by cliffw: Wrong. The argument for DEI hiring is that outcomes for all colored people and genders should mirror the percentage of populations of all colored people and genders.
Correct. The argument for DEI hiring is that outcomes for all colored people and genders should mirror the percentage of populations of all colored people and genders.
Equity in outcome is not a necessary part of any particular DEI policy. It's a popular way some groups have tried to address the problem but that's an entirely separate argument and including it as a premise for DEI policies at large would be self-referential and fallacious.
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Which is bullzhit ! Those groups are not equally capable of performing in the roles the rolls they have no experience in.
I agree that Affirmative Action programs with race or gender quotas misunderstand the issue and often fail to set those they "help" up for success. I'm not defending or supporting those policies, I'm suggesting that policies that address the inequality in opportunities (think access to food/shelter/education for children) are not the same thing. I elaborate on this point a bit previously in this thread.
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Originally posted by cliffw: There it is ! If you believe that all gender and racial groups do not have the exact same access to opportunities you are racist and sexist.
There it is again. Racism and sexism. What makes you think color or sex matters ? What makes you think "we" assume?
You had to take some pretty large leaps and then still put words in my mouth in order conclude that I was saying any of this. You can believe that people in the US have equal opportunities without being racist. Similarly, you can believe that there are different capabilities between men and women without being sexist. If I wanted to say you were being racist or sexist I would have said "Hey Cliff, that's racist/sexist."
Originally posted by BingB: Because there is so much hard proof that racism and sexism exist.
You think color or sex matters because there is proof of it ? Colored people sold other colored people into slavery. Do you have a point.
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Originally posted by BingB: -Scientific studies showing that identical applications for housing or employment are treated differently if they have an "ethnic" name.
That's a damn shame. Why are ... wait. You would still be right if you had said "that identical applications for housing or employment are treated differently if they have an colored name." Pocahontas Elizibeth Warren owes her career to being an Indian.
Being White is not an ethnicity ? White is not a color ?
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Originally posted by BingB: -Multiple court cases finding proof that police use racial profiling and treat minorities differently. Many cases involving law enforcement admiting to using racial profiling.
That is bullzhit. Profiling is a valuable tool.
The Black population in America is 15% of the total population of America. Yet they commit 30% of the violent crimes. According to the FBI Uniform Crime Reports, in 2008, black youths, who make up 16% of the youth population, accounted for 52% of juvenile violent crime arrests, including 58.5% of youth arrests for homicide and 67% for robbery.
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Originally posted by BingB: -The existence of groups who not only admit to their white supremist beliefs but actually brag about them.
As opposed to colored supremacist groups who admit to their colored supremacist beliefs ?
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Originally posted by BingB: -The popularity of racist content on-line where individuals can not be identified.
Originally posted by cliffw: Everyone does have the same level of opportunity to complete 5th grade and graduate high school.
The socio-economic differences are a direct result of making the most of opportunities that one facilitated. Sometimes doing better in life begins with how you parents did.
These two sentences seem to contradict each other. If "doing better in life begins with how you parents did," how would "everyone have the same level of opportunity to complete 5th grade and graduate high school"? Some kids don't have reliable access to food, shelter, or safety; how are those not impediments to opportunity?
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Originally posted by cliffw: Race, gender, same prejudiced motive.
I wasn't commenting on the rationale behind striking it down (which I largely agree with), I was commenting that they only struck down policies that set race-based quotas.
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What would be a realistic equity policy ?
I believe I've already answered that:
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Originally posted by NewDustin: I don't really disagree with any of that, and I don't think it needs to come from a place of envy. I do, however, know that some segments of society do not have the same access to food, housing, medical care, or education. I don't disagree with efforts to address those things. Access to free/optional breakfast/lunch programs at schools is one example of a realistic equity policy -we can solve food insecurity for students during the week. Access to quality education is another -one there are multiple fiscally conservative solutions to, btw. So for that, how about a charter system similar to what Todd advocates for? How would that not be an equity program?
. So, now you see what a lying fraud Kamala really is, blatant lies right into America's face. Frame by frame, parse her every utterance, discover that she lied 90% of her time. And that, children, is why she will lose in November, biglier, and uglier. ' Yay ! President D.J.Trump Makes America Great Again ! ' ' Yeah, there's no room at the top for lying hoes. ' ' Donald Trump is so too a dictator ! ' ~ That's a lie ! ' Donald Trump colluded with Putin ' ~ That's a lie too ! ' Donald Trump will win in Pennsylvania, Georgia, New York, Michigan ' ~ That's no lie ! lol Rachel Maddow losing her sheet on msnbc, ' The end of our democracy ! ' Yes, yes, the dempartie relegated to the wilderness, for decades, Kamala's blatant lying triggering the rejection, the expulsion from power, forever. ' She did it ! It's her fault ! Couldn't stop lying ! She lied more than Hillary ! She lied more than Biden_Joe ! She lied more than Al Gore ! She lied more than Wild Bill Clinton ! ' It's so pathetic.
[This message has been edited by Valkrie9 (edited 09-11-2024).]
Originally posted by NewDustin: These two sentences seem to contradict each other. If "doing better in life begins with how you parents did," how would "everyone have the same level of opportunity to complete 5th grade and graduate high school"? Some kids don't have reliable access to food, shelter, or safety; how are those not impediments to opportunity?
Public schools are free. Food is free for those that can not afford food. Shelter is also free for those that can not afford it. Safety ? Are any of us safe ?
I can do much to advance my lot in life. Which improves my available opportunities.
You are being disingenuous. Have you ever heard the phrase "you can be anything you want to be" ? Yes, there are those who claimed we will never land on the Moon.
Impediments to opportunity are self made. Opportunity are self made. Abraham Lincoln, as poor as it gets, became the President. He had to want to walk miles, to borrow books, and then return them. You don't think his "want to" payed more dividends ?
I am generous with help to those that help themselves. I learned that from those that helped me, and not others.
Again, you are being disingenuous. Those that are sowing the division of opportunity, never suggest that we provide more free food, free housing, or free safety ! They are planting sugar plumbs in the weak and lazy that it is not their fault, that they can not overcome.
You know nothing about me. I grew up with many circumstances that would cripple many from success. I even created and added my own negative challenges. I even planted some permanent black records on my history. Never graduated from High School.
I laugh at life and cuss myself for not doing as good as I could have. I am retired, have no money issues, (other than I want more). I own properties, some pretty damn cool vehicles and have owned many more. Some I destroyed out of stupidity.
Stupidity is the key to success. The key to opportunity.
Abraham Lincoln, as poor as it gets, became the President. He had to want to walk miles, to borrow books, and then return them. You don't think his "want to" payed more dividends ?.
His "want to" would not have meant a thing if he had not been both white and a man. . . .
BTW I have an uncle who smoked a pack a day but never got heart or lung disease. According to your logic this proves that smoking does not contribute to heart or lung disease.
[This message has been edited by BingB (edited 09-11-2024).]
Originally posted by cliffw: Opportunity are self made.
This is complete BS.
People born into wealthy families have opportunities that other people can not even dream about. And it is not just getting family assistance financially. The saying "Who you know is more important than what you know" is absolutely true. Connections can make or break a career.
I am not saying that wealthy people don't work hard for their success. I am saying that lots of people work hard and just never get the opportunities that the wealthy do.
The claim that the only reason some people fail is because they are lazy is not true.
People born into wealthy families have opportunities that other people can not even dream about. And it is not just getting family assistance financially. The saying "Who you know is more important than what you know" is absolutely true. Connections can make or break a career.
I am not saying that wealthy people don't work hard for their success. I am saying that lots of people work hard and just never get the opportunities that the wealthy do.
The claim that the only reason some people fail is because they are lazy is not true.
Your statement is also not completely true, sure "rich kids" may be afforded extra opportunities, BUT - there have been a lot of people that made opportunities for themselves. Just to name some: Gates, Zuckerburg, Woz, anyone that started a store/restaurant/etc chain, etc, etc. Then there is all those YouTube "celebrities/influencers".
But let us not forget that there are many lazy people out there that expect things just be handed to them...
[This message has been edited by Mickey_Moose (edited 09-11-2024).]
