So I’ve been thinking about it. I’m seeing a lot of comments from different Democrats all talking about WHY Harris lost the race. An overwhelming number of them are shitting on Joe Biden. So I have some wild thoughts here… conflicting ones:
1. For one, I will never forgive or forget what Biden did in Afghanistan. I truly hate him deeply for allowing it to happen the way he did, every aspect of it was a complete disaster, and it was entirely his fault the way he pulled out. Though I largely blame his cabinet because I think he’s mentally compromised to a degree.
2. On the other hand, I’m really frustrated the way everyone is shitting on Biden. I was truly bothered by the way Harris was merely “picked” outside of a primary. Obviously I understand how the primaries work and that they aren’t defined by the Constitution … and long story short, I don’t handle major change too well. Not like moving or changing jobs… but foundational principles that I grew up with. E.g., 9/11 affected me greatly. The idea that national constructs would change affect me.
You guys won’t like what I say here, but I tend to think the greatest issue in politics today (for Democrats), is the stranglehold that the Obama “regime” has on the Democrat party. Dead-serious… the Democrats never had so many issues as they’ve had under Obama. Hillary being ordained, the super delegates, Harris being ordained, etc. This “picking and choosing” of people, rather than it happening organically, it upsets me. I know you all will disagree… but I hope you see it to some degree.
I saw a quote from a Biden aide on the news:
“There is no singular reason why we lost, but a big reason is because the Obama advisors publicly encouraged Democratic infighting to push Joe Biden out, didn’t even want Kamala Harris as the nominee.”
I agree with this. Biden wasn’t great… and yeah, there was cheating during COVID… but WHY is Obama still pulling the strings? Has anyone asked that? When you have a new sitting president of the same party… the previous party moves on. Biden, as the president, should have been the effective leader of the party. There shouldn’t be anyone else behind the scenes pulling the strings. This is an incredibly important distinction… Obama never went away, he literally moved down the street from Dupont Circle and has been pulling the strings in DC.
What I hope, for the sake of America and the Democrat party, is that Obama moves on, sells his DC townhouse (that Susan Rice lives in, oddly enough) and enjoys his retirement at his new Hawaii mansion on the property of the former Robin Masters Magnum PI mansion that he completely leveled and destroyed so he could build that gawdy-ass mansion that’s there now.
So I’ve been thinking about it. I’m seeing a lot of comments from different Democrats all talking about WHY Harris lost the race. An overwhelming number of them are shitting on Joe Biden.
Harris lost because of Biden's policies and decisions he made in office.
What are the reasons the democrats are zhitting on Biden.
[This message has been edited by cliffw (edited 11-08-2024).]
That is all political gamesmanship. I am sure they lost some votes because of it. While it does not look good, I don't think that is the major cause for their loss.
The Democrats have lost the middle class. They chose the extreme left over the blue collar workers. They chose the screaming banshee feminists, navel gazing intellectuals, sexual freaks, Hamas terrorist sympathizer, illegal aliens and limousine liberals. The union members went for Trump. To their embarrassment, union leaders rather than endorse Trump whom their members chose, instead gave no endorsement. Hispanics voted for Trump. Jews voted for Trump. Independents voted for Trump. While Trump did not win NY or New Jersey, he gained double digits in those blue states.
Democrats showed their true colors. Everyone that was not a radical leftist saw right through the political prosecutions of Trump. It did not take much to see Biden/Harris throwing the gates open on the border and rolling out the red carpet for illegal aliens. Illegal aliens were put up in hotels in cities around the country while homeless Americans were sleeping on the streets. Illegal aliens were getting thousands of dollars of assistance while disaster victims were given a $750 loan if they qualified. Everyone saw that the media and Democrats lied for years about Joe Biden's mental health. Then everyone saw the Democrats pick Harris through backroom deals completely disregarding the millions of votes cast during the primary.
They impeached Trump twice, they are trying to bankrupt him, they are trying to throw him in jail and then they tried to assassinate him, twice. There has never been a bigger underdog in American history. Americans don't like bullies. That is exactly who the Democrats are, bullies. The American people voted in droves to punish the bullies and to balance the scales.
We are seeing a political realignment. More voters registered as Republicans. Gallop showed more people identified as Republicans for the first time in decades. I expect to see Republicans winning the popular vote regularly going forward. On a side note, watch as the Democrats quietly abandon the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact when they realize it would benefit Republicans.
I cheer the Democrats eating each other and calling the majority of America that voted for Trump racist, sexist, homophobic, etc. Keep doing the same thing and expecting different results. I'll enjoy seeing President J.D. Vance in 2028.
That is all political gamesmanship. I am sure they lost some votes because of it. While it does not look good, I don't think that is the major cause for their loss.
The Democrats have lost the middle class. They chose the extreme left over the blue collar workers. They chose the screaming banshee feminists, navel gazing intellectuals, sexual freaks, Hamas terrorist sympathizer, illegal aliens and limousine liberals. The union members went for Trump. To their embarrassment, union leaders rather than endorse Trump whom their members chose, instead gave no endorsement. Hispanics voted for Trump. Jews voted for Trump. Independents voted for Trump. While Trump did not win NY or New Jersey, he gained double digits in those blue states.
Democrats showed their true colors. Everyone that was not a radical leftist saw right through the political prosecutions of Trump. It did not take much to see Biden/Harris throwing the gates open on the border and rolling out the red carpet for illegal aliens. Illegal aliens were put up in hotels in cities around the country while homeless Americans were sleeping on the streets. Illegal aliens were getting thousands of dollars of assistance while disaster victims were given a $750 loan if they qualified. Everyone saw that the media and Democrats lied for years about Joe Biden's mental health. Then everyone saw the Democrats pick Harris through backroom deals completely disregarding the millions of votes cast during the primary.
They impeached Trump twice, they are trying to bankrupt him, they are trying to throw him in jail and then they tried to assassinate him, twice. There has never been a bigger underdog in American history. Americans don't like bullies. That is exactly who the Democrats are, bullies. The American people voted in droves to punish the bullies and to balance the scales.
We are seeing a political realignment. More voters registered as Republicans. Gallop showed more people identified as Republicans for the first time in decades. I expect to see Republicans winning the popular vote regularly going forward. On a side note, watch as the Democrats quietly abandon the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact when they realize it would benefit Republicans.
I cheer the Democrats eating each other and calling the majority of America that voted for Trump racist, sexist, homophobic, etc. Keep doing the same thing and expecting different results. I'll enjoy seeing President J.D. Vance in 2028.
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: 1. For one, I will never forgive or forget what Biden did in Afghanistan. I truly hate him deeply for allowing it to happen the way he did, every aspect of it was a complete disaster, and it was entirely his fault the way he pulled out. Though I largely blame his cabinet because I think he’s mentally compromised to a degree.
I'll never understand this take. You blame Biden for stupidly continuing Trump's disastrous policy (which I agree he should be blamed for), but not Trump for being the genesis of that policy?
quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: 2. On the other hand, I’m really frustrated the way everyone is shitting on Biden. I was truly bothered by the way Harris was merely “picked” outside of a primary. Obviously I understand how the primaries work and that they aren’t defined by the Constitution … and long story short, I don’t handle major change too well. Not like moving or changing jobs… but foundational principles that I grew up with. E.g., 9/11 affected me greatly. The idea that national constructs would change affect me.
You hit this nail on the head. Garbage in garbage out, you reap what you sow, you made your own incumbent-shaped bed now sleep in it. Should have run the space thumb.
quote
You guys won’t like what I say here, but I tend to think the greatest issue in politics today (for Democrats), is the stranglehold that the Obama “regime” has on the Democrat party. Dead-serious… the Democrats never had so many issues as they’ve had under Obama. Hillary being ordained, the super delegates, Harris being ordained, etc. This “picking and choosing” of people, rather than it happening organically, it upsets me. I know you all will disagree… but I hope you see it to some degree.
I saw a quote from a Biden aide on the news:
“There is no singular reason why we lost, but a big reason is because the Obama advisors publicly encouraged Democratic infighting to push Joe Biden out, didn’t even want Kamala Harris as the nominee.”
I agree with this. Biden wasn’t great… and yeah, there was cheating during COVID… but WHY is Obama still pulling the strings? Has anyone asked that? When you have a new sitting president of the same party… the previous party moves on. Biden, as the president, should have been the effective leader of the party. There shouldn’t be anyone else behind the scenes pulling the strings. This is an incredibly important distinction… Obama never went away, he literally moved down the street from Dupont Circle and has been pulling the strings in DC.
What I hope, for the sake of America and the Democrat party, is that Obama moves on, sells his DC townhouse (that Susan Rice lives in, oddly enough) and enjoys his retirement at his new Hawaii mansion on the property of the former Robin Masters Magnum PI mansion that he completely leveled and destroyed so he could build that gawdy-ass mansion that’s there now.
I...agree with almost all of this. I think Bernie Sanders is a whackadoodle who believe in magic money, but he hit this nail right on the head. The Democrats lost all of the working voters, they've all but openly scapegoated men...it's like they're leaning into being the party of elites. The outpouring of Hollywood know-nothings telling people how to vote this election was disgusting. The Republicans are leaving a HUGE vulnerability by becoming the party for high spending/taxes and economic intervention. There is no mass representation for fiscal conservatives now: You have Democrats, who have also shifted to the left fiscally, campaigning on not raising taxes as much as the Republicans. I'd like to see them evolve in response to the new-normal, big-government Republican party: Run on responsible spending, strong national defense, free trade, and economic/personal freedom. It would require a marginal shift to the right on a handful of economic policies, but they could hoover up a huge number of disaffected, small-government conservatives.
Originally posted by NewDustin: I'll never understand this take. You blame Biden for stupidly continuing Trump's disastrous policy (which I agree he should be blamed for), but not Trump for being the genesis of that policy?
Nope... you don't get to twist this. Trump had nothing to do with this pull-out... Biden was president for 8 months.
Biden literally upended every single policy that Trump had enacted by the end of day 1... yet I'm supposed to somehow believe that Afghanistan is Trump's fault and that Biden followed it exactly and totally?
Ignoring the fact that I helped write a portion of the policy (and it didn't include leaving civilians, abandoning BAF and our embassy, leaving classified equipment behind, etc.)... but let's say for funsies that you were correct. Who then is more retarded... Trump for writing a bad policy... or Biden for following it exactly 8 months later?
Nope... you don't get to twist this. Trump had nothing to do with this pull-out... Biden was president for 8 months.
Biden literally upended every single policy that Trump had enacted by the end of day 1... yet I'm supposed to somehow believe that Afghanistan is Trump's fault and that Biden followed it exactly and totally?
Trump had nothing to do with the withdrawal? ...that's not twisting the truth, that's losing all familiarity with it.
Let's put the timeline in context: Trump architected the withdrawal, against the advice of his advisors, starting in 2017. The withdrawal began February 2020, and continued for 1 year under Trump before Biden took office. Biden took over in January 2021, and oversaw the withdrawal for 7 months, continuing Trump's timeline. After Trump created the policy and administered the vast majority of it, you seem to believe there was some large, Biden-driven divergence from what Trump had been doing...could you specify what exactly that was, when it happened, and why it is solely responsible for the withdrawal's failure?
Circling back to "Biden literally upended every single policy that Trump had enacted by the end of day 1..." What about the USMCA? That embassy in Jerusalem? The 'Phase One' China trade tariffs? Title 42 migrant expulsions? Again, this goes beyond twisting the truth, it is demonstrably false.
quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Ignoring the fact that I helped write a portion of the policy (and it didn't include leaving civilians, abandoning BAF and our embassy, leaving classified equipment behind, etc.)... but let's say for funsies that you were correct. Who then is more retarded... Trump for writing a bad policy... or Biden for following it exactly 8 months later?
What you wrote or contributed to has absolutely no bearing on how this policy worked out and what the implications of it's enactment were, so I agree that ignoring it would be appropriate. Self-citation aside, it wasn't a surprise when those things happened; that the withdrawal would fall apart was widely predicted by Trump's own advisors, as well as the international defense community at large. Both of those were written prior to Biden taking over, and there's much, much more.
In any case, I think they are both wrong -Trump for allowing hubris and ignorance to lead him into an embarrassingly poorly-negotiated deal (where he got out-politicked by a third world guerrilla force), and Biden for understanding how historically poorly Trump had done and rolling along with it anyway in the hopes he could blame Trump entirely for the failure.
Odd isn't it, how the left can (and did) taut Biden's 1st 100 days of policy actions, most of which was reversing his predecessor's actions and agreements, but regarding 8 months (240 days) in, the left gives the sitting Commander-in-Chief a bye and blames his predecessor........
Even a leftist website like NBC got it right...at the time. "..President Joe Biden's Withdrawal" The move is a stark statement of intent on the part of President Joe Biden's administration, and an indication that the remaining 2,500 to 3,500 U.S. troops have left or are close to leaving the country, months ahead of the president's Sept. 11 deadline."
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 11-11-2024).]
Originally posted by NewDustin: What you wrote or contributed to has absolutely no bearing on how this policy worked out and what the implications of it's enactment were, so I agree that ignoring it would be appropriate. Self-citation aside, it wasn't a surprise when those things happened; that the withdrawal would fall apart was widely predicted by Trump's own advisors, as well as the international defense community at large. Both of those were written prior to Biden taking over, and there's much, much more.
In any case, I think they are both wrong -Trump for allowing hubris and ignorance to lead him into an embarrassingly poorly-negotiated deal (where he got out-politicked by a third world guerrilla force), and Biden for understanding how historically poorly Trump had done and rolling along with it anyway in the hopes he could blame Trump entirely for the failure.
Again, everything you just said here... is completely asinine. It's mental gymnastics meant to shift blame for a completely horrible situation because your mind is unable to accept the fact that a person you voted for, and a person you support, could be so stupid, quite frankly... because it puts in question your own judgement.
Let's be completely honest about this... and not attempt to repeat left-wing talking points that are not reality, but totally subjective (see statement above):
- President Biden undid quite literally, nearly every single Trump policy he could. Every single one he possibly had the power to do so... yet... for some reason, you expect me to believe that for SOME reason... Biden felt that the Afghanistan pull-out needed to go EXACTLY how Trump (supposedly) wanted it? Like... he hates Trump with every fiber of his being, but on this ONE thing, you seem to think he believed Trump had it totally correct?
- And your next sentence... which is always the one... "Biden couldn't violate the treaty they had signed." Nonsense... the Taliban violated it within minutes of Biden's inauguration. There was nothing left of the treaty. The escape clause of the Doha treaty had already been activated.
- Biden abandoned Bagram in the middle of the night, without telling anyone, including the new base commander... they just abandoned, left the gates open, and literally shut the power off as they took the last flight out: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-57682290
- More than 2/3rds of the Taliban were stopped outside of Kandahar, waiting for the Mayor to resigned. Biden could have called for an MQ9 strike, literally killing all of them, decimating their forces immediately. Biden did no such thing.
- Biden evacuated the military before even thinking about evacuating the civilians that had helped us. During the time that we fled the country and pulled out, we got calls from all of our intelligence assets on our land lines at the agency... the overwhelming vast majority of them were left behind, and they were all killed.
- When **** really hit the fan, Biden sent a Marine unit from Qatar that had not had any training at all. These were just kids... almost all of them aged 20, and then a couple of NAVY people. McKenzie from CENTCOM, and everyone involved was caught off guard by the "liberal political machine" that forced them to get out ASAP. These kids were bunched up, which should have never happened... that's why they were killed so easily because they were all together in one location. It was a complete **** show.
- We left billions and billions of dollars of firepower there... the Afghans have one of the most powerful armies in the world now. If they weren't retarded, they could invade Russia right now from it's border. They were so unorganized, that they didn't even have enough pilots to fly the C130s out of there. We left 2-3 C130s on the tarmac at HKIA... they sent a kid into the planes to shoot up the control panels, and blow out some of the tires. We left behind tons of stuff, including the friend / foe warning system (which is classified).
I understand that you voted for Joe Biden, and that it's difficult for you to accept that a decision YOU made, helped lead to this disastrous pull out of epic proportions. Today... I'm going to give you a big **** YOU. It's not personal, but **** YOU. I lost friends there, as I'm sure you probably did if you went to Afghanistan. This was entirely Joe Biden's fault the way it ended up, and I will not sit here and let you try to blame it on anyone else. I almost hope that when Trump gets into office, he drops a MOAB on the old U.S. embassy (where the Taliban leadership are), and also blow up the Russian-built palace that we renovated.
Originally posted by NewDustin: I'll never understand this take. You blame Biden for stupidly continuing Trump's disastrous policy (which I agree he should be blamed for), but not Trump for being the genesis of that policy?
Wow! I have no idea how you came to the conclusion that the deaths associated with the withdrawal were due to DJT policies.
Had Biden followed DJT's withdrawal agreement, those kids would not have died when they did. That was all on Biden.
Rams
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 11-12-2024).]
While I may be alone in my reasons for voting for DJT, for me it was all about the policies the competition had enacted the last four years and the campaign promises she made versus what we know DJT accomplished (with huge opposition by the Dems) during the four years he was in office. I don't care about the candidates race or gender, it's all about policies for me. The US citizens had had enough of what the Biden/Harris Administration had done to them. In this case, I didn't have to like DJT for him to get my vote.
Edited: I also believe that the vast majority of US voting citizens believe that the criminal prosecutions DJT faced were politically motivated. I don't believe DJT is an angel by any means but...........................
Yes, it was an Intervention! ------------------ Rams Learning most of life's lessons the hard way. . You are only young once but, you can be immature indefinitely.
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 11-12-2024).]
I've been pretty much silent on this Forum since the election.
There is a passage in Proverbs that discourages gloating when your opposition fails.
I think it would be good if the people followed the scripture in this case.
We should all be good winners, and good losers.
Not sure if what I've stated qualifies as "gloating" or not. I guess it depends on one's perspective. I fully admit on voting for DJT and have stated why many times, I don't consider that gloating.
Reference other posts specifically regarding RayB, call it what you may, IMHO, he's a troll. I have no regrets for anything I've posted in reference to him.
by:82-T/A [At Work]: Today... I'm going to give you a big **** YOU. It's not personal, but **** YOU. I lost friends there, as I'm sure you probably did if you went to Afghanistan.
You know what dude, it really sucks to chant "**** you" at me for friends you lost in Afghanistan knowing who I am and what I've been through. Seriously, I've had some thick skin through all of our conversations, but that was shitty. I hope you enjoy the election victory, but I have no desire to speak with you about it further.
Also I didn't vote for Biden or Kamala Harris, and have told you repeatedly I've never voted for a Democrat.
You're over here chanting "**** you" at a war veteran over dead soldiers the day after Veterans Day because you were mistaken about the way they voted. Stop and think about that for a second.
[This message has been edited by NewDustin (edited 11-13-2024).]
You know what dude, it really sucks to chant "**** you" at me for friends you lost in Afghanistan knowing who I am and what I've been through. Seriously, I've had some thick skin through all of our conversations, but that was shitty. I hope you enjoy the election victory, but I have no desire to speak with you about it further.
Also I didn't vote for Biden or Kamala Harris, and have told you repeatedly I've never voted for a Democrat.
You're over here chanting "**** you" at a war veteran over dead soldiers the day after Veterans Day because you were mistaken about the way they voted. Stop and think about that for a second.
I have a really hard time dealing with the fact that you seem to place the failure of Afghanistan on Trump... absolving Biden of this failure. You have literally nothing you can point to as "fact" that this was Trump's fault, except for a feeling or a desire to shift blame. Even if you were to look for an article supporting this feeling, it would just be a left-leaning apology article that says "He followed Trump's plan, with nothing else behind it... or a quote from some hack that says, "we followed Trump's plan."
Nothing that was done in that last month, was even remotely "Trump's plan."
I'm not upset that you're blaming Trump... I'm upset that you're shifting blame from Biden. I do not really wish you to "**** off" but I am extremely pissed about this. You have the right to believe whatever you want... but I truly believe your political bias is not allowing you to see what literally happened... we were all there. The NSA chief was one of the last people on the plane, shared with a bunch of Afghans sitting on the floor of the very last C130 that took off. Even he is confused at the mere mention that this was "Trump's plan." From sending out those 20 year olds, untrained, bunched together (making themselves a target), to hastily calling a drone strike that accidentally killed an aid worker and ~10 children because his political hacks were so desperate to cover for this epic failure. Pulling all the soldiers out before evacuating our civilians, none of that was "Trump's plan."
[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 11-13-2024).]
I can't help but imagine that you would have a different perspective on this had you shared some the experiences of the war veterans on this forum. As it is, I hope once whatever is driving this current round of political psychosis subsides you have the decency to be ashamed of how you've conducted yourself.
Outside of that I have no desire to continue conversation with you on this.
Originally posted by NewDustin: I can't help but imagine that you would have a different perspective on this had you shared some the experiences of the war veterans on this forum. As it is, I hope once whatever is driving this current round of political psychosis subsides you have the decency to be ashamed of how you've conducted yourself.
Outside of that I have no desire to continue conversation with you on this.
So you can't answer the question then, it's just based on feelings? I may not be a veteran, but I carried a gun and traveled with the military as a civilian intelligence officer and deployed to hostile places (including Afghanistan) just as you did living in a CHU and in barracks for 6 months at a time, and traveling routinely by all the same means you did. The ONLY difference is that I was supposed to run the other way when there's gun fire, not towards it... which was equally frustrating. I PCSed every 2-3 years uprooting my family just as you did, and did it for over a decade. Don't pretend to hold yourself to a higher esteem than me, you can't answer a simple question, and seem to push the blame on Trump for the literal actions of Biden.
I've tried to understand the logic behind "this was Trump's fault," and I can't find anything that reinforces this other than just another liberal article that says "this is Trump's fault." What disgusts me is when people apologize for Biden's failure in Afghanistan. All the lives lost, and the Biden administration had the audacity to say the Afghans "didn't care" about their freedom. The ANSF lost nearly a hundred thousand people... fighting for their country. And you absolve him of the blame. It disgusts me. You don't get a pass for really bad opinions, veteran or not.
[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 11-13-2024).]
So you can't answer the question then, it's just based on feelings? I may not be a veteran, but I carried a gun and traveled with the military as a civilian intelligence officer and deployed to hostile places (including Afghanistan) just as you did living in a CHU and in barracks for 6 months at a time, and traveling routinely by all the same means you did. The ONLY difference is that I was supposed to run the other way when there's gun fire, not towards it... which was equally frustrating. I PCSed every 2-3 years uprooting my family just as you did, and did it for over a decade. Don't pretend to hold yourself to a higher esteem than me, you can't answer a simple question, and seem to push the blame on Trump for the literal actions of Biden.
I've tried to understand the logic behind "this was Trump's fault," and I can't find anything that reinforces this other than just another liberal article that says "this is Trump's fault." What disgusts me is when people apologize for Biden's failure in Afghanistan. All the lives lost, and the Biden administration had the audacity to say the Afghans "didn't care" about their freedom. The ANSF lost nearly a hundred thousand people... fighting for their country. And you absolve him of the blame. It disgusts me. You don't get a pass for really bad opinions, veteran or not.
I didn't realize you considered yourself a war veteran. Happy belated Veteran's Day then.
I didn't realize you considered yourself a war veteran. Happy belated Veteran's Day then.
I'm NOT a war "veteran"... I deployed to Afghanistan just as you did... lived in a CHU for 6 months at a time, did ALL the same things you did. You and I even crossed paths, and probably saw eachother at Warrior or Dragon DFAC. The only difference was that I was allowed to wear the same clothes as a defense contractor because I was in the IC, and didn't have to wear the uniform with the triangle CIV where the rank patch goes. I did all the same things you did, carried the same weapons... saw guts getting shoveled into a pickup by the clean-up crew... and body parts of children strewn all over the place after an IED (like the upper torso of a 10-11 year old girl being thrown into the back of a pickup, same age as my daughter, with all the other dead people). All the same sick and disgustingly sad **** you saw. I traveled from Heathrow to Qatar to pick up my weapon just as you did before boarding a C130 to Kandahar, HKIA, or Bagram. I went through all the same weapons training, ISOPREP, all that crap. I even wore the same military issued boots. This isn't about your service, which you are making it about... I give you absolute credit for your service... the distinction is that you were forced to do it as part of your service to the country... which probably makes it harder. I volunteered for it... so maybe I am the idiot. I absolutely don't get any praise for my service, and that's fine.
Yes, I am messed up from it. I can't go to veterans memorial services without breaking down crying, or watching anything related to middle east war movies without getting really upset. I shoved my wife to the ground four months ago because some roofers were installing a new roof on a house in a neighborhood with a pneumatic nailer and I thought they were gunshots. I am messed up, I recognize that. But it infuriates me when I hear people push the blame off to President Trump... not because I have some love affair with the guy, but because it's clear the political dissonance is so strong that they can't even recognize that the sitting President of just over 8 months was the one calling the shots (or should have been), and literally everything we did there resulted in nothing but death, and total failure.
I haven't been able to find anything that supports this argument (Trump's fault), other than the usual stuff that says "it was Trump's plan" but no one seems to know what that plan is. The Doha agreement was violated on day one of Biden's inauguration. At that point Biden should have made a decision then... what he ended up doing was a disaster.
[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 11-13-2024).]
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: I'm NOT a war "veteran"... I deployed to Afghanistan just as you did... lived in a CHU for 6 months at a time, did ALL the same things you did. You and I even crossed paths, and probably saw eachother at Warrior or Dragon DFAC. The only difference was that I was allowed to wear the same clothes as a defense contractor because I was in the IC, and didn't have to wear the uniform with the triangle CIV where the rank patch goes. I did all the same things you did, carried the same weapons... saw guts getting shoveled into a pickup by the clean-up crew... and body parts of children strewn all over the place after an IED (like the upper torso of a 10-11 year old girl being thrown into the back of a pickup, same age as my daughter, with all the other dead people). All the same sick and disgustingly sad **** you saw. I traveled from Heathrow to Qatar to pick up my weapon just as you did before boarding a C130 to Kandahar, HKIA, or Bagram. I went through all the same weapons training, ISOPREP, all that crap. I even wore the same military issued boots. This isn't about your service, which you are making it about... I give you absolute credit for your service... the distinction is that you were forced to do it as part of your service to the country. I volunteered for it... so maybe I am the idiot. I absolutely don't get any praise for my service, and that's fine.
Yes, I am messed up from it. I can't go to veterans memorial services without breaking down crying, or watching anything related to middle east war movies without getting really upset. I shoved my wife to the ground four months ago because some roofers were installing a new roof on a house in a neighborhood with a pneumatic nailer and I thought they were gunshots. I am messed up, I recognize that. But it infuriates me when I hear people push the blame off to President Trump... not because I have some love affair with the guy, but because it's clear the political dissonance is so strong that they can't even recognize that the sitting President of just over 8 months was the one calling the shots (or should have been), and literally everything we did there resulted in nothing but death, and total failure.
I haven't been able to find anything that supports this argument (Trump's fault), other than the usual stuff that says "it was Trump's plan" but no one seems to know what that plan is. The Doha agreement was violated on day one of Biden's inauguration. At that point Biden should have made a decision then... what he ended up doing was a disaster.
I'm not making Trump and Biden being equally responsible for Afghanistan about my service. I'm not going to discuss that with you further, so make whatever assumptions you want about how I feel about it.
What I am making about service is you feeling enabled and empowered to chant "**** you" at combat veterans and blame them for their dead comrades based on how they voted (especially when you're wrong about how they voted). You are confusing me with someone else (we never crossed paths), and you are confusing what you experienced with what I did; what you've described is not what deploying with a Marine infantry battalion is like. I don't want to diminish what you went through but I'm also not going to pretend like you having had a contracting job in Afghanistan justifies how you are behaving.
Originally posted by NewDustin:I'm not making Trump and Biden being equally responsible for Afghanistan about my service. I'm not going to discuss that with you further, so make whatever assumptions you want about how I feel about it.
What I am making about service is you feeling enabled and empowered to chant "**** you" at combat veterans and blame them for their dead comrades based on how they voted (especially when you're wrong about how they voted). You are confusing me with someone else (we never crossed paths), and you are confusing what you experienced with what I did; what you've described is not what deploying with a Marine infantry battalion is like. I don't want to diminish what you went through but I'm also not going to pretend like you having had a contracting job in Afghanistan justifies how you are behaving.
I was NOT a defense contractor God damnit. And I never blamed you for anyone's deaths, and I didn't blame "combat veterans" for anything. I said your opinion was stupid, and you can't back up what you are saying. And I said we likely crossed paths. I was the Information Security Officer for USFOR-A's J6 on loan from my agency, and went to every FOB and all the sites, so I was saying we likely crossed paths metaphorically since we were both there at the same time. That was me trying to give an olive branch, but you're doubling down on how great your service is, and saying ridiculous **** about how I'm criticizing veterans. I'm ONLY criticizing your view that you think Trump was responsible for Biden's failure in Afghanistan.
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: I was NOT a defense contractor God damnit. And I never blamed you for anyone's deaths, and I didn't blame "combat veterans" for anything. I said your opinion was stupid, and you can't back up what you are saying. And I said we likely crossed paths. I was the Information Security Officer for USFOR-A's J6 on loan from my agency, and went to every FOB and all the sites, so I was saying we likely crossed paths metaphorically since we were both there at the same time. That was me trying to give an olive branch, but you're doubling down on how great your service is, and saying ridiculous **** about how I'm criticizing veterans. I'm ONLY criticizing your view that you think Trump was responsible for Biden's failure in Afghanistan.
You said: "I understand that you voted for Joe Biden, and that it's difficult for you to accept that a decision YOU made, helped lead to this disastrous pull out of epic proportions. Today... I'm going to give you a big **** YOU. It's not personal, but **** YOU. I lost friends there, as I'm sure you probably did if you went to Afghanistan." I can understand not wanting to own that. It's a hell of a thing to say.
I apologize for mischaracterizing your service; that was not my intention and I understand being insulted by it. It is still not the same as mine, though you're wrong that I think that makes mine better. It still doesn't make what you said ok.
[This message has been edited by NewDustin (edited 11-13-2024).]
Originally posted by NewDustin: You said: "I understand that you voted for Joe Biden, and that it's difficult for you to accept that a decision YOU made, helped lead to this disastrous pull out of epic proportions. Today... I'm going to give you a big **** YOU. It's not personal, but **** YOU. I lost friends there, as I'm sure you probably did if you went to Afghanistan." I can understand not wanting to own that. It's a hell of a thing to say.
I apologize for mischaracterizing your service; that was not my intention and I understand being insulted by it. It is still not the same as mine, though you're wrong that I think that makes mine better.
You're clearly reading into this more than what I'm saying... which I think is intentional. I take this very personally... so I apologize if I'm getting heated. I contend that you still cannot provide any substance to saying this was Trump's fault. I have other friends (all Democrats) who say the same thing... because this was the narrative that the White House pushed as a desperate attempt to explain away the disaster that was the Afghan pull-out. I'm really upset with the way things turned out.
As for defense contractors, I'm not going to diminish their service... but you and I clearly were not paid in any way shape or form, close to what a defense contractor was paid. You and I (I assume) did what we did because we care about our country. Maybe that's why a defense contractor does it too... but they certainly make a lot of money from it.
For whatever it matters... Area 82, and Camp Vance were all DoD civilians. They don't get free mental healthcare... we get the obligatory before and after meeting with the psychologist, and that's that. If I have problem, I have to figure it out on my own.
[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 11-13-2024).]
You're clearly reading into this more than what I'm saying... which I think is intentional. I take this very personally... so I apologize if I'm getting heated. I contend that you still cannot provide any substance to saying this was Trump's fault. I have other friends (all Democrats) who say the same thing... because this was the narrative that the White House pushed as a desperate attempt to explain away the disaster that was the Afghan pull-out. I'm really upset with the way things turned out.
As for defense contractors, I'm not going to diminish their service... but you and I clearly were not paid in any way shape or form, close to what a defense contractor was paid. You and I (I assume) did what we did because we care about our country. Maybe that's why a defense contractor does it too... but they certainly make a lot of money from it.
For whatever it matters... Area 82, and Camp Vance were all DoD civilians. They don't get free mental healthcare... we get the obligatory before and after meeting with the psychologist, and that's that. If I have problem, I have to figure it out on my own.
Don't blame veterans for their dead comrades. Don't insinuate, don't make comments that seem like they might suggest...not even in a round-a-bout, they'd-have-to-read-too-far-into-it kind of way. At least don't do it to me. You hit WAY too close to home. I don't want to drag this interaction out further.
Originally posted by NewDustin: Don't blame veterans for their dead comrades. Don't insinuate, don't make comments that seem like they might suggest...not even in a round-a-bout, they'd-have-to-read-too-far-into-it kind of way. At least don't do it to me. You hit WAY too close to home. I don't want to drag this interaction out further.
I did NOT blame you for dead comrades... and please stop saying that.
I have no idea on how much time and preparation/planning/training went into the "withdrawal" But, it's pretty danged obvious it was insufficient, and the tools needed to accomplish it safely were not in place.
quote
And the Trump administration kept to the pact, reducing U.S. troop levels from about 13,000 to 2,500, even though the Taliban continued to attack Afghan government forces and welcomed al-Qaeda terrorists into the Taliban leadership.
But, the Taliban stopped attacking US troops. That was DJT's goal. US troops were going to leave but, Biden opened the door when he started changing the agreement.............
Rams
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 11-13-2024).]
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Nope... you don't get to twist this. Trump had nothing to do with this pull-out... Biden was president for 8 months.
Biden literally upended every single policy that Trump had enacted by the end of day 1... yet I'm supposed to somehow believe that Afghanistan is Trump's fault and that Biden followed it exactly and totally?
Ignoring the fact that I helped write a portion of the policy (and it didn't include leaving civilians, abandoning BAF and our embassy, leaving classified equipment behind, etc.)... but let's say for funsies that you were correct. Who then is more retarded... Trump for writing a bad policy... or Biden for following it exactly 8 months later?
lying for the rump still ?
rump did it it was 100% a RUMP DEAL HIS PEOPLE WROTE THE PLAN [you admit it] SET THE TIME TABLE [you admit it] THE ART OF THE DEAL ON DISPLAY then you claim it ain't the rumps chitpile BS BS BS BS
ADMIT THE RUMP SCREWED THE AFGANS TOTALLY AND COMPLETLY
rump did it it was 100% a RUMP DEAL HIS PEOPLE WROTE THE PLAN [you admit it] SET THE TIME TABLE [you admit it] THE ART OF THE DEAL ON DISPLAY then you claim it ain't the rumps chitpile BS BS BS BS
ADMIT THE RUMP SCREWED THE AFGANS TOTALLY AND COMPLETLY
I have no idea on how much time and preparation/planning/training went into the "withdrawal" But, it's pretty danged obvious it was insufficient, and the tools needed to accomplish it safely were not in place.
Outside of Biden pushing the date, that's been exactly my point. I think there is a good point I missed in that pushing the date absolutely made things worse.
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Originally posted by blackrams: But, the Taliban stopped attacking US troops. That was DJT's goal. US troops were going to leave but, Biden opened the door when he started changing the agreement.............
Rams
I'm counting far more than one stated objective for this. While I agree the withdrawal has achieved many of them (including the stopping attacks against US troops) it failed in just as many. I'm not blaming Trump expressly for those failures, but am confused by the insistence that Trump carries absolutely no blame for how things turned out, or that his goals were all accomplished.
campaign promises she made versus what we know DJT accomplished (with huge opposition by the Dems) during the four years he was in office. I don't care about the candidates race or gender, it's all about policies for me. The US citizens had had enough of what the Biden/Harris Administration had done to them. In this case, I didn't have to like DJT for him to get my vote.
