For those who don't remember, Colombia refused to accept back into the country, two military flights that had Colombian nationals.

The president of Colombia was playing hardball, which is INSANE... because the United States has given them BILLIONS. Last year alone, they got $448 million from the United States.


Today, Trump issued retaliatory measures (as of Monday), and is:

- directing his administration to impose emergency 25 percent tariffs on all imports from Colombia, which will rise to 50 percent in seven days.

- will issue a travel ban and immediate visa revocations on Colombian government officials “and all allies and supporters.”

- will add visa sanctions on all members on party members, supporters, and family members of Colombian government officials will also be applied.

- will add enhanced U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) inspections of Colombian nationals and cargo on “national security grounds.”

- will add various other banking and financial sanctions.

... these measures will take effect starting Monday.


In addition to the totally insane actions of President Petro, he also "turned away U.S. flights with Colombian nationals on board," which I should remind everyone... are the wealthy Colombians who actually bring money back into their country. This is incredibly... incredibly stupid for the president of Colombia, especially because nearly 30% of Colombia's exports go to the United States: https://www.worldstopexport...bias-top-10-exports/

For what it's worth, Gustavo Petro is a radical leftist that Colombia elected just under 3 years ago... which was one of the first radical leftist presidents in a long time. Until then, they've had a series of centrist, conservative, and slightly left-leaning (workers party) style presidents.

I'm trying not to be a dick here, especially on Sunday. But what does Petro think he's doing? Guarantee he's going to allow the flights by the end of the week. No way he wants 50% tariffs on his exports... it'll be a complete disaster for his country.


Mexico has already backed down and accepted four flights with Mexican nationals that all had criminal records.

Here is the article I paraphrased: https://www.theepochtimes.c...tion-flights-5799080

I've seriously never seen another country cave so quickly.

He clearly thought he was going to call Trump's bluff... and obviously didn't do his homework. That president now looks like a fool to his entire population. Instead, he could have merely accepted the prisoners and said nothing. But now, the entire country questions his competency, not only for making stupid decisions, but probably pissed off the liberal side for acquiescing so quickly.

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: I've seriously never seen another country cave so quickly. He clearly thought he was going to call Trump's bluff... and obviously didn't do his homework. That president now looks like a fool to his entire population. Instead, he could have merely accepted the prisoners and said nothing. But now, the entire country questions his competency, not only for making stupid decisions, but probably pissed off the liberal side for acquiescing so quickly.

Possibly but, he's still well above our own former President, the embarrassment and loss of world status Biden brought to the US is still unmatched.


There are always lessons to be learned. Some figure out those lessons by learning from other's mistakes, some have to learn things the hard way.
Decisions always have consequences and rewards.

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Rams
Learning most of life's lessons the hard way. .
You are only young once but, you can be immature indefinitely.

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 01-27-2025).]

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: - directing his administration to impose emergency 25 percent tariffs on all imports from Colombia, which will rise to 50 percent in seven days.

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: I've seriously never seen another country cave so quickly.

I believe Patrick would also think of them stupid. Patrick thinks we pay more because of tariffs.

Biden said he needed congress to give him more power to enforce the border. What a impotent incompetent idiot.

Doug, we are lucky he is impotent. The last thing we need is more Bidens.

quote Originally posted by cliffw: Patrick thinks we pay more because of tariffs.

Don't take my word for it. Plenty of info is available out there for anyone who wishes to inform themselves.

quote Originally posted by cliffw: I believe Patrick would also think of them stupid. Patrick thinks we pay more because of tariffs.

I mean, Patrick is super loyal to Canada... and rightfully he should be. He views the U.S. throwing it's weight around as sort of an affront to everyone else.

To that I would say, the U.S.'s problems are very much a result of failure of U.S. policy. This isn't Colombia's fault, it's the U.S.'s fault... we basically gave mixed signals... told everyone to come to America, and now we're telling them not to. So I do recognize that. We in the U.S. look at it as a "Biden screwed up bad, and Trump is fixing it..." but the rest of the world looks at it like... WTF is America doing?

And to an even lesser extent... they fear Trump simply because the media has demonized him.

Trump definitely understands that his base wants immediate satisfaction and is not concerned with actual strategy or long-term goals. These quick "strong man" responses get his base hooting and chest thumping -and that's what drives his numbers- but each of these actions comes with a long-term economic and diplomatic cost. Hammering that voter dopamine button has worked for him so far, and the apologists will be here to blame whatever negative externalities come from them on someone else.

...but yeah, he was super successful at bullying a country with a GDP roughly the size of Missouri's. Once they realized we would seriously use our regional influence to starve their citizens what choice did they have?

quote Originally posted by NewDustin: Trump definitely understands that his base wants immediate satisfaction and is not concerned with actual strategy or long-term goals. These quick "strong man" responses get his base hooting and chest thumping -and that's what drives his numbers- but each of these actions comes with a long-term economic and diplomatic cost. Hammering that voter dopamine button has worked for him so far, and the apologists will be here to blame whatever negative externalities come from them on someone else. ...but yeah, he was super successful at bullying a country with a GDP roughly the size of Missouri's. Once they realized we would seriously use our regional influence to starve their citizens what choice did they have?

That's not what this is at all. What is the long-term economic or diplomatic cost?

Do you know anything about Colombia, or about our agreements with them?


The country of Colombia hates us, and they always have... our past Democrat presidents have influenced Colombia over the years, even giving them weapons to napalm and bomb their own citizens... which resulted to an extent in the creation of the FARC. So please enlighten me on the long-term economic and diplomatic costs you speak of?

Countries like Colombia only view the United States for what it can get from it... specifically, money. We provide military support and arms, and they do what we say because we provide it. This isn't a Trump thing... this is every president before Trump. So, your comments here are misplaced, and woefully inaccurate regarding the country in question. We did exactly what we needed to do. To that point, Trump wants to stop sending money to other countries for so called "diplomacy" and instead wants to serve as an example of how a country can be successful.

You're mad because this worked... not because you fear a loss of diplomacy with Colombia.

quote Originally posted by NewDustin: The closed eyes/plugged ears insistence that Trump's tariffs are special from any other tariffs that have ever been levied and will be the only ones to ever not raise prices on consumers is one of the more wild things I've experienced here. Sources don't matter, history doesn't matter...Trump suggested it was a liberal idea that tariffs would raise prices and his supports just...nodded their heads.

I'll agree that a tariff war isn't good for anyone. But tariffs can be a good thing when applied correctly. Sometimes it's the only tool in the box that might get foreign entities to "get with the program". Those tariffs can easily be avoided. Secure borders are good for all except Cartels, drug smugglers, trafficking and those wishing to get something they are not entitled to.

I believe most of the US population is in favor of Legal Immigration, but illegal immigration is something few actually support unless someone else is paying the bills. There are some that support border crossers as long as the US Taxpayer is footing the bill but a very rare few are willing to take those same illegals into their own homes and support/provide for, feed and don't forget all that free medical care, free phones plus that $5K debit card we're giving them.

Biden openly allowed virtually anyone to cross our borders and then provided taxpayer support to include transportation to where they wanted to go, all at our expense. He stopped and tried to destroy a border wall so more could come. Those countries that refuse to help secure their own borders shard with the US have a choice to make, I truly do hope they choose to get with the program.

To Todd's point about how the rest of the world may see us, I understand this is going to be a challenge but, it is, what it is.

Rams

quote Originally posted by NewDustin: The closed eyes/plugged ears insistence that Trump's tariffs are special from any other tariffs that have ever been levied and will be the only ones to ever not raise prices on consumers is one of the more wild things I've experienced here. Sources don't matter, history doesn't matter...Trump suggested it was a liberal idea that tariffs would raise prices and his supports just...nodded their heads.

I'm trying to be respectful here, but it's hard to do so when you generalize so blatantly. Where is this idea you have that Republicans are just total morons and don't know what they voted for?

How can you say this with the enormous failure of the last 4 years... a totally open border, all while lying about it, restricting oil production significantly, which raised the prices, and then flooding the market with the strategic oil reserves when it started to affect his poll numbers? Almost everything has been a failure.

Regardless... yes... a tariff will raise the price of a product to the receiving country. Let's use Colombia, for example... since we're on the topic. They sell bananas... it's one of their major exports to the United States. The only reason why they sell bananas is because it's so damned cheap to grow them there. If you increase the price by 25%... guess what... people will buy bananas from somewhere else. Using the bananas example... the price might go up for a week... but there are nearly a dozen other countries that can also produce bananas, such as Panama, Ecuador, Mexico, Honduras, the islands of the Caribbean, and even South Florida. I grew all my own bananas... see...




So here's how it works. If we impose a tariff on bananas coming from Colombia... at BEST, it increases the price for a week. But more than likely, there will be a couple of other options for bananas in the same store. The fact is... some consumers won't even recognize that there was an increase in the cost of bananas per pound, and will pay anyway. What HAPPENS though... is that the grocery store who's selling the bananas, will want to remain competitive with other stores, who may be selling bananas from other countries. So here's what happens... that grocery store now permanently changes their source for bananas... which means not only will fewer consumers be buying their bananas, but now they've literally lost the market for selling their product.

It gets even worse than that... let's say that they resolve the problem, and the tariffs have been eliminated. Well, they've STILL lost that market share... and the only way they can get that marketshare back, is by actually undercutting the competition... which means selling at a lower price than the other country that's now ramped up production. More than likely, the other country doesn't want to lose this new business, and will remain more competitive, thus creating a race to the bottom for banana prices. All of this is horrendous for Colombia because... not only have they likely permanently lost business, but will have to lose money to regain business.

It's devastating, and this is the reason why the tariffs will ABSOLUTELY hurt other countries more than the United States.

quote Originally posted by Patrick: Don't take my word for it. Plenty of info is available out there for anyone who wishes to inform themselves.

I suggest you inform yourself.

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: I'm trying to be respectful here, but it's hard to do so when you generalize so blatantly. Where is this idea you have that Republicans are just total morons and don't know what they voted for?

Take a deep breath and remember that I'm not the Democrat enemy; I'm an economic conservative looking at things from an economically conservative perspective. You remember that conversation, right?
I don't think that Republicans are total morons. I think that anyone that thinks tariffs aren't paid for by consumers misunderstands how tariffs work. I think that anyone who thinks their widespread use doesn't come with considerable economic risk doesn't understand how tariffs work. Not understanding how tariffs work doesn't make you a moron, it makes you someone who probably never had to learn how tariffs work.

quote Originally posted by NewDustin: I don't think that Republicans are total morons.

Ah, not total morons. Got it.

quote Originally posted by NewDustin: I think that anyone that thinks tariffs aren't paid for by consumers misunderstands how tariffs work. I think that anyone who thinks their widespread use doesn't come with considerable economic risk doesn't understand how tariffs work. Not understanding how tariffs work doesn't make you a moron, it makes you someone who probably never had to learn how tariffs work.

Riddle me this. Why does every Country have tariffs ?

quote Originally posted by NewDustin: Take a deep breath and remember that I'm not the Democrat enemy; I'm an economic conservative looking at things from an economically conservative perspective. You remember that conversation, right? I don't think that Republicans are total morons. I think that anyone that thinks tariffs aren't paid for by consumers misunderstands how tariffs work. I think that anyone who thinks their widespread use doesn't come with considerable economic risk doesn't understand how tariffs work. Not understanding how tariffs work doesn't make you a moron, it makes you someone who probably never had to learn how tariffs work.

You're significantly generalizing. There is almost nothing that we would be putting tariffs on, and who we would be putting them on, that we couldn't still buy the same thing for somewhere else... so the cost increase would not really be felt, and if it was, it would be significantly limited.

The country, really, that is going to be tough, is China... because they unfortunately provide almost all the technology that we use, which allows us to grow our service-based economy. With Canada, it's oil and cars... and random car parts. It's actually a perfect time to do this anyway because car purchases are way down, and there are plenty of vehicles already being produced in the United States from those companies and others. With Mexico... it's far less of the same.

Bottom line, these countries need us way more than we need them right now, and the effects will be far more painful for them, than it will be for us. China aside... all the other countries where tariffs have been threatened, we would barely even notice since we have so many other options from other countries, and it would be devastating for them. Again, China is going to be the big one... THAT is the one that will be painful.

All of the teeth gnashing in this forum has been about Canada... quite honestly (and in this thread, Colombia). No one would even notice a tariff on Colombia except Colombia... and a tariff on Canada would barely affect us.

quote Originally posted by cliffw: Ah, not total morons. Got it.

Don't be all coy twisting my words, you.

quote Originally posted by cliffw: Riddle me this. Why does every Country have tariffs ?

So there are a few problems with the way this question reframes the debate:
You are overgeneralizing, or you forgot Switzerland and Singapore (who have eliminated tariffs) and Australia, New Zealand, or the UAE (who are all actively working to minimize or eliminate them). There a multitude of others, depending on what point in time you are looking.

Your question appeals to tradition/popularity, which is a formal fallacy: Just because something is widespread does not mean it is good or rational.

There is some circular reasoning in here. If tariffs are good because tariffs are used, then are tariffs used because tariffs are good?

...and some false equivalency. One country's use of tariffs will vary dramatically from another country's use. The answer to the question is likely as diverse as the countries using the tariffs.

But if you want a direct answer: "Because they thought it was a good idea at the time."

quote Originally posted by NewDustin: I don't think Canada or Columbia, by themselves, would be a big deal. I think if you add Canada to Mexico and China you're starting to get a big deal. If you willy nilly throw Columbia on just to make a point the deal gets a little bit bigger. It's not one country in particular I'm worried about "needing us more than we need them," ...and that seems a very...poor...way to gauge the desirability of an economic transaction. I'm worried that continually acting against our own economic best interest -just because we currently can and it makes us feel tough- will have negative economic impacts for us in the long term. We're on top economically because we made sound economic decisions over a long period of time. Going "We're #1! We can afford to make stupid economic decisions!" loses complete sight of the WHY we are where we are.

But we're not... we've been losing by sending money all over the world... taxpayer money, for many projects that have nothing to do with us, or don't benefit us in any way.

You've been stating on here that tariffs are going to hurt us and emphatically stating that we're going to pay for it. I'm merely stating that it is a tool to get countries to comply... and so far, it's worked really well.


With Canada, Mexico, and Colombia... the cost will NOT be fully felt by the consumer, because like I said, there's tons of other options for our products and retail will always look to be competitive by selling the lowest priced products. Sure, lumber and aluminum futures will go up, but that can quickly be replaced in a matter of 1-2 weeks from other sources and the effect on us at that point would be negligible... but the effect it would have on Canada would be devastating. For us... it would be a mild increase in cost... realistically 10%, where as for Canada... it would mean a near-immediate halt in consumption of their product... which would be an enormous loss to them.


Again, the only one here that matters economically to the United States is China... a tariff on China would be devastating for China of course, but it would also hurt the United States because many people would still buy the product... but many would not.


But let's not fool ourselves and pretend like a tariff on Canada is going to end the world as we know it for the United States. We just went through insane inflation over the past couple of years... absolutely no one would even notice a tarrif on Canada... and again, retail outlets and grocery stores would merely shift where they purchase their goods from.

China is the only country that's been strategic... by making themselves the #1 producer and owner of the supply chain... everything from batteries and solar, to electronics. It would suck... but equally devastating for them.

If the 25% tariff is levied... it's going to destroy, it's going to absolutely devastate Canada's banana exports!

quote Originally posted by Patrick: Yeah, we'll see... if it comes to pass.

You took that last quote out of context... the point is that with all the inflation we've seen, a tariff on Canada's goods would barely be noticed.

quote Originally posted by NewDustin: Your question appeals to tradition/popularity, which is a formal fallacy: Just because something is widespread does not mean it is good or rational. There is some circular reasoning in here. If tariffs are good because tariffs are used, then are tariffs used because tariffs are good? ...and some false equivalency. One country's use of tariffs will vary dramatically from another country's use. The answer to the question is likely as diverse as the countries using the tariffs. But if you want a direct answer: "Because they thought it was a good idea at the time."

A similar circular question can be asked. Just because something is widespread does not mean it is bad or irrational.

The stronger economy gets to make the decision, the weaker economy either succumbs to the will of the stronger or, suffers the consequences.
Economies are strength, just like militaries for the leaders to use with the people's support.

Which brings to my mind the question, does Mexico's obvious drug and people trafficking constitute a "Clear and Present Danger" to the US.
To me, it does appear Mexico's government is corrupt at so many levels.
How are we going to react now that the Cartels have been declared Terrorists?

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Rams
Learning most of life's lessons the hard way. .
You are only young once but, you can be immature indefinitely.

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 01-27-2025).]

Ain't it great to have a pal like patrick that is so very worried about America's well being that he goes on and on about how damaging a tariff would be TO America?

quote Originally posted by maryjane: Ain't it great to have a pal like patrick that is so very worried about America's well being that he goes on and on about how damaging a tariff would be TO America?

It's as if some didn't see or apparently understand the mandate sent to DC. DJT made quite a few campaign promises, the US voters overwhelmingly voted for DJT. It would be rather foolish to think we didn't have a gut feeling about where DJT would take us. It would also be foolish to think DJT isn't going to do something many don't agree with but, keeping one's word is cherished trait. I don't have to agree with every decision DJT makes, but I sure as hell will agree with more of his decisions than I did with Biden's.

If Canada or Mexico wants to counter with their own tariffs, then let the chips fall where they may. Pretty sure we know how that's going to end up.
That is a rational outcome according to every Economics Class I ever took.
I sincerely hope both Canada and Mexico get with the program but, this week's Columbia Tariff should be considered a real caution light.


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Rams
Learning most of life's lessons the hard way. .
You are only young once but, you can be immature indefinitely.

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 01-27-2025).]

quote Originally posted by maryjane: Ain't it great to have a pal like patrick that is so very worried about America's well being that he goes on and on about how damaging a tariff would be TO America?

Seriously, Don? Please provide an example of where I've stated even once about how a tariff on imported Canadian goods would be "damaging" to the US.

quote Originally posted by Patrick: Seriously, Don? Please provide an example of where I've stated even once about how a tariff on imported Canadian goods would be "damaging" to the US.

Wait, what? You've been saying that for like 3 weeks now...

Provide an example.

quote Originally posted by Patrick: Seriously, Don? Please provide an example of where I've stated even once about how a tariff on imported Canadian goods would be "damaging" to the US.

Anyone interested to know the answer to that statement needs to read the DJT ups the ante on tariffs thread.

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Rams
Learning most of life's lessons the hard way. .
You are only young once but, you can be immature indefinitely.

Provide an example.

quote Originally posted by Patrick: Provide an example.

That thread is full of examples. Anyone can read what's posted.

Rams

Provide an example.

quote Originally posted by Patrick: Provide an example.

No smart ass remarks from me, the evidence is there for anyone that desires to see it.

Rams

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Wait, what? You've been saying that for like 3 weeks now...

I don't think he reads or comprehends what he types.