Curious to understand how all the MAGA crowd explains this away. Especially since His Magassy didn't do anything about the DEI policies that were in place and unchanged since 2013.
Also curious to know how you can look at yourselves in a mirror and not be ashamed.
[This message has been edited by Mike in Sydney (edited 01-31-2025).]
While I can't comment on how DEI did or didn't have an effect, I will say that I don't agree with the comments made from the podium. It was simply not the time to make those comments even if they are correct.
I've already posted what I see as possibilities and I'm sure I haven't thought of all of them but, the comments made were inappropriate until the investigation was completed (if actually warranted). Regardless of DEI, all potential reasons will be investigated. When I made my own comments, I didn't even consider DEI but, I have noted that I don't believe the ATC controller provided sufficient warning to the Blackhawk crew from what I've read and seen on the news/networks. If, my initial observation is correct, the ATC Controller will be dealt with. My understanding is that the Tower was not manned as it was supposed to be. I've also stated that I don't believe the Blackhawk crew was flying under NVG with all that light pollution they were flying through. NVGs mount to the crew's helmets. I'm relatively sure those NVGs were mounted prior to the Blackhawk actually pulling pitch but, we'll only know after the investigation is completed. According to reports, the pilot was a female Captain, the other pilot a male Warrant Officer/Instructor pilot, this assumes the reports are accurate. The Instructor Pilot would have been the Pilot In Command regardless of rank or gender on any training or evaluation flight.
Way too many possibilities for this accident.
Rams
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 01-31-2025).]
Especially since His Magassy didn't do anything about the DEI policies that were in place and unchanged since 2013.
I'm curious what you mean by this?
I was in the Government from 2011 through 2021... DEI was already in government before 2011... but Trump made slight changes. For example... there was a push for only promoting people of color and Obama had sent out memos asking the agencies to promote people based on race first (they'd get first pick, etc.). Trump eliminated that, but instead shifted focus to hiring at HBCs... trying to hire blacks and Hispanics by having recruiting events at universities that were either predominantly Hispanic, or black.
But when Biden came in... it went insane. They hired almost exclusively based on race and sexual preference, and even started to allow support for Communism. What I mean is... to have a clearance in the DoD and IC, significant support for Communism used to be a negative factor, and you wouldn't be granted a clearance. President Biden eliminated this requirement, and we were literally hiring people that were openly Communist... even posting about it on the classified message forums. The hiring standards dropped significantly... they literally hired people that had absolutely no experience. Just to give an example, one lady I worked with somehow managed to turn her computer upside down, and she couldn't figure out why she couldn't get the CD drive to accept the CD (the computer was upside down on her desk, so the CD tray was also upside down. This was a person who was hired onto the most premier Cyber Blue Team in the entire world... or at least what once was. In my very last position, I came into a senior cybersecurity advisor position, and my subordinate who was already there, was a gay pro-Communist Chinese national turned Citizen, which wouldn't be a problem, but he was VERY pro-Communist (talked about it all the time). He was supposed to provide cybersecurity for special forces, and yet, he had an English major... with no formal cybersecurity, programming, or technical background at all. Matter of fact, he'd been hired under Biden and was only there for a few months. After the pull-out in Afghanistan, and with my colleague constantly telling me every day that we need more Communism in America (even though, believe it or not, I never talk politics at work), I was done.. so I quit, as did a lot of other people... GOOD people who actually had skill and could do the mission. I swear, the best time for the adversaries to have attacked our country, was in the last week before Biden left office... everything was falling apart.
Like... it was absolutely crazy.
I have no problem looking in the mirror. Trump was pissed... the ENTIRE government has been run like clown town for the past 4 years... it's been a complete and unmitigated disaster. If you only knew the half of it. I know you have your politics, I know you have your voting preference... but it was never like this under Obama... it was never this bad. The transition from Obama to Trump was seamless and we pretty much carried on, for the most part. But when Biden came into office... it was almost literally like purple haired college students took over the government.
[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 01-31-2025).]
Too much to post! It must certainly be a lot then. You can't post any of it? Like...just the corner maybe?
https://www.msn.com › en-us › news › politics › fact-check... Fact Check: Yes, Obama and Biden Had FAA Hire People with In an archived page from December 2024, the FAA touted "'On-the-spot' special appointment authority" to hire individuals via a "non-competitive hiring method," one of which involved "hiring …
There are more left-leaning versions of it, but they're essentially saying that Trump is also to blame because he maintained Obama's DEI hire policies. At least though, we're in agreement now that DEI policies were bad.
Originally posted by Mike in Sydney: Also curious to know how you can look at yourselves in a mirror and not be ashamed.
As in "how can you look in the mirror after saying that and your are not ashamed" ?
DEI has always been bullshit. The best merit for the job, no matter what. DEI has infected all areas of life. The Progressive pundits think he was referring to the helicopter crew or the American Airlines crew. The FAA traffic controllers may have also played a part. Most likely in my opinion. Restrictions in hiring were put in place under Obama, for DEI.
Talked about is a slow down in enlistments for the military. Traffic controllers have the same ... lag.
There was a question of both aircraft flying at the same level. American Airlines was landing. Which means the level of flying was a given to get lower.
There are more left-leaning versions of it, but they're essentially saying that Trump is also to blame because he maintained Obama's DEI hire policies. At least though, we're in agreement now that DEI policies were bad.
Ok...the whole "Intellectual Disabilities" thing is crazy out of context here. The clear implication that they were working as ATCs is just false. The biggest argument I see here about ATCs is that they moved to a more aptitude-based assessment...I'm not mad at that. Who cares if they hired disabled folks to do jobs they're capable of doing? So what if the ATC doesn't have legs, or the janitor can do calculus, as long as the standards for their ability to perform in their roles are just as high?
Originally posted by cliffw: ... The FAA traffic controllers may have also played a part. Most likely in my opinion. Restrictions in hiring were put in place under Obama, for DEI.
Talked about is a slow down in enlistments for the military. Traffic controllers have the same ... lag.
This was commented upon on the radio, earlier. Since DEI was put into place, in order to maintain the specified ratios, no "non-minorities" could be hired. Since there were not enough qualified minority applicants available, the positions were left vacant. This is why they were short staffed.
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 01-31-2025).]
The Federal Aviation Administration is fighting a class-action lawsuit alleging it denied 1,000 would-be air traffic controllers jobs because of diversity hiring targets — as it was revealed that staffing levels were “not normal” at the time of this week’s deadly midair collision. ... The crux of the lawsuit is that the FAA, under the Obama administration, dropped a skill-based system for hiring controllers and replaced it with a “biographical assessment” in an alleged bid to boost the number of minority job applicants ... The lawsuit adds to the mounting criticism the FAA has faced this week over its hiring policies — with some, including President Trump, claiming diversity programs were in part to blame for understaffing and overall lower standards for air traffic controllers.
Asked if he thought years of diversity hiring ensured that an aviation accident was bound to happen, Brigida (the plaintiff) told the Telegraph, “Yes, that’s kind of accurate.”
His assessment came as the FAA revealed that the air traffic controller on duty at the time of the passenger plane-Black Hawk helicopter crash late Wednesday was doing the work of two people.
Ok...the whole "Intellectual Disabilities" thing is crazy out of context here. The clear implication that they were working as ATCs is just false. The biggest argument I see here about ATCs is that they moved to a more aptitude-based assessment...I'm not mad at that. Who cares if they hired disabled folks to do jobs they're capable of doing? So what if the ATC doesn't have legs, or the janitor can do calculus, as long as the standards for their ability to perform in their roles are just as high?
Maybe I'm just not following?
EDIT... I shared way too much personal information there with my family, etc... so deleting.
[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 01-31-2025).]
Gender and Race based hiring and promotions has been around a long time. It's only recently been called DEI.
I personally know of several that got jobs or promotions based on what they were versus their capability to do the job. It's very likely we can all say that. The Peter Principle almost always come into play but the real problem is that ability isn't always the reason hirings and promotions are granted. Quality hiring and promotions should be based on the ability to do the job, not what some quota says. I'm not suggesting anything concerning the implied comments made on the podium by DJT or the other speakers, I simply feel those comments were inappropriate for that press conference.
------------------ Rams Learning most of life's lessons the hard way. . You are only young once but, you can be immature indefinitely.
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 02-01-2025).]
We've touched upon this in the other thread, but is it possible that blaming DEI policies is simply a diversion to distract from what might be the actual problem... namely, the military performing "training missions" in congested civilian airspace?
We've touched upon this in the other thread, but is it possible that blaming DEI policies is simply a diversion to distract from what might be the actual problem... namely, the military performing "training missions" in congested civilian airspace?
All kinds of possibilities reference military training flights but, the fact is, the military is tasked with providing these flights in a congested area, where else would they train, even if starting from zero (which is pretty much what they do), eventually they will have to fly the mission with the real challenges. Remember, when training, there's always a qualified (PIC) Pilot in Command that's supposed to be fully qualified to fly the mission. I believe that most military pilots would chose to fly in less congested areas but, that's not the option they are given.
I don't know that DEI is or isn't the issue but, I have to assume the President has access to information that we the public don't. That doesn't mean I believe some remarks made from that podium were appropriate coming at the first press conference from the WH. But, that's just me.
Rams
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 01-31-2025).]
I don't know that DEI is or isn't the issue but, I have to assume the President has access to information that we the public don't. That doesn't mean I believe some remarks made from that podium were appropriate coming at the first press conference from the WH. But, that's just me.
Rams
Rams, I'm sure this president has access to information that the public doesn't. The problem is that if he doesn't, he just makes it up and then broadcasts it. Donald Trump is known for doing this.
Sometimes it's best to keep an opinion to oneself because saying silly, untruthful, or hurtful stuff can make a person look stupid. I would have a lot more respect for the current president if he would do this.
Donald is playing to his base, the far right MAGA folks that believed everything Don and his henchmen said or say. They are not Republicans. They are more akin to the Dixiecrats of George Wallace. I'd be really happy if they left the Republican party and formed a 3rd party and let the centre-right of the Republican party, the party of Lincoln, Eisenhower, Bush-1, and Reagan, come back. Of course, that would mean that the so-called Republicans in the Congress and the Senate would have to grow spines and the likelihood of that is pretty slim.
Before everyone goes off on me about an Australian commenting on U.S. politic, yes, I am an Australian citizen. But, I just need to say I am also a native-born, U.S. citizen and I retain my U.S. citizenship. I was born and raised in the South during the time of Eisenhower, Bush-1, and Reagan and I vote in each state and federal election for the person(s) that I believe will best support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic and who will bear true faith and allegiance to the same. In other words, I vote for the man, not the party. More folks should consider doing that.
Rams, I'm sure this president has access to information that the public doesn't. The problem is that if he doesn't, he just makes it up and then broadcasts it. Donald Trump is known for doing this.
Sometimes it's best to keep an opinion to oneself because saying silly, untruthful, or hurtful stuff can make a person look stupid. I would have a lot more respect for the current president if he would do this.
Donald is playing to his base, the far right MAGA folks that believed everything Don and his henchmen said or say. They are not Republicans. They are more akin to the Dixiecrats of George Wallace. I'd be really happy if they left the Republican party and formed a 3rd party and let the centre-right of the Republican party, the party of Lincoln, Eisenhower, Bush-1, and Reagan, come back. Of course, that would mean that the so-called Republicans in the Congress and the Senate would have to grow spines and the likelihood of that is pretty slim.
Before everyone goes off on me about an Australian commenting on U.S. politic, yes, I am an Australian citizen. But, I just need to say I am also a native-born, U.S. citizen and I retain my U.S. citizenship. I was born and raised in the South during the time of Eisenhower, Bush-1, and Reagan and I vote in each state and federal election for the person(s) that I believe will best support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic and who will bear true faith and allegiance to the same. In other words, I vote for the man, not the party. More folks should consider doing that.
Mike
Mike, Trying to be clear on my position, I am not suggesting DJT or others who spoke in that press conference were right or wrong, I honestly don't know that DEI did or didn't play a roll in the cause of that mid-air collision. My position, whether DEI played a role or not, that press conference was not the appropriate place to start placing blame.
The minute of silence DJT asked for, condolences to those who lost family/friends and a promise to get to the bottom of why IMHO were all that needed to be stated. The bolded first few words of your post reflect precisely how I see it. Especially for people in leadership roles. Those of us who frequently step into a pile of crap should also be more considerate. Yes, I'm also guilty of not exercising such good judgement from time to time.
BTW, someday I hope to visit Australia and New Zealand.
Rams
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 02-01-2025).]
Originally posted by blackrams: Gender and Race based hiring and promotions has been around a long time. It's only recently been called DEI.
Known as Affirmative Action. It was used heavily for entry into colleges.
quote
Originally posted by blackrams: I personally know of several that got jobs or promotions based on what they were versus their capability to do the job. [color=red]It's very likely we can all say that.
In my vocation that zhit wouldn't cut it. The universal phrase was "if you can't do it, you can't stay". Experience will get you noticed but the job was / is the test one must pass.
Originally posted by NewDustin: Maybe I'm just not following?
That would be a good guess and IF, I were to hazard another, it would be that you don't want to. perhaps, Your reputation precedes you. give it a thought.
Originally posted by Mike in Sydney: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Mike in Sydney: Before everyone goes off on me about an Australian commenting on U.S. politic, yes, I am an Australian citizen.
Mike, I have never mind talking about anyone from anywhere discussing US politics. I have seen comments made to PFF members from other countries griping about citizens from other countries discussing or criticizing American government but is rare. I believe most people feel as I do.
quote
Originally posted by Mike in Sydney: Rams, I'm sure this president has access to information that the public doesn't. The problem is that if he doesn't, he just makes it up and then broadcasts it. Donald Trump is known for doing this.
Trump has often been accused of that and has been right often.
quote
Originally posted by Mike in Sydney: Donald is playing to his base, the far right MAGA folks that believed everything Don and his henchmen said or say. They are not Republicans.
You don't know that. Aren't you doing exactly what you accused Trump of doing ?
quote
Originally posted by Mike in Sydney: They are more akin to the Dixiecrats of George Wallace. I'd be really happy if they left the Republican party and formed a 3rd party and let the centre-right of the Republican party, the party of Lincoln, Eisenhower, Bush-1, and Reagan, come back. Of course, that would mean that the so-called Republicans in the Congress and the Senate would have to grow spines and the likelihood of that is pretty slim.
We the people formed the present day Republican party the way we the people wanted it. Your sentiment can also be applied to the New DEmocrat party Progressives.
quote
Originally posted by Mike in Sydney: I vote for the man, not the party. More folks should consider doing that. Mike
That is exactly what happened in our last election. The swing votes swayed it for Trump due to his results last time, and the very dismal performance of Biden / Harris.
We've touched upon this in the other thread, but is it possible that blaming DEI policies is simply a diversion to distract from what might be the actual problem... namely, the military performing "training missions" in congested civilian airspace?
It has been firmly established, that this helicopter and crew were part of the so called 'doomsday' protocol. Evacuating high level members of the US Govt in the event of a national security breach or worse. The crew were doing an annual night time re-qualification training. It's Washington DC. There's no other way or place to realistically practice for it.
It has been firmly established, that this helicopter and crew were part of the so called 'doomsday' protocol. Evacuating high level members of the US Govt in the event of a national security breach or worse. The crew were doing an annual night time re-qualification training. It's Washington DC. There's no other way or place to realistically practice for it.
Will be interesting to see how "Elected Officials" react to not having such transportation in the event of a National Emergency. I'm betting they'll come up with something to get their asses out of the capitol regardless of the needed safety measures and training flights needed to get it done. Who knows, there may be a new airfield built to diminish traffic at Ronald Reagan International. Whatever happens, I'm damn sure those elected won't accept the loss of an escape route.
The flights will continue. The training will continue. There will be changes to the route and max/min altitude assignments, but you and I have both been around long enough to know that no matter what, the world will keep turning.
The flights will continue. The training will continue. There will be changes to the route and max/min altitude assignments, but you and I have both been around long enough to know that no matter what, the world will keep turning.
Preliminary flight data from the deadly plane crash in Washington, D.C., shows conflicting readings about the altitudes of a passenger jet and Army helicopter that collided near Reagan National Airport and killed everyone on board the two aircraft, investigators said over the weekend.
Data from the American Airlines flight recorder showed an altitude of 325 feet, plus or minus 25 feet, when the collision happened Wednesday night, National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) officials told reporters on Saturday. Data in the control tower, though, showed the Black Hawk helicopter at 200 feet, the maximum allowed altitude for helicopters in the area.
The roughly 100-foot altitude discrepancy in the data has yet to be explained.
Investigators are working to retrieve data from the helicopter’s back box, which is taking more time because it became waterlogged after submerging into the Potomac River, in hopes of reconciling the difference. They also said they plan to refine the tower data, which could be less reliable.
"This is a complex investigation," said Brice Banning, NTSB investigator in charge. "There are a lot of pieces here. Our team is working hard to gather this data."
Banning detailed the last moments from the jet's two black boxes, which captured sound in the cockpit and flight data just before what became the deadliest U.S. aviation accident since 2001.
"The crew had a verbal reaction," Banning said, with the data recorder showing "the airplane beginning to increase its pitch. Sounds of impact were audible about one second later, followed by the end of the recording."
Investigators did not say whether that change in angle meant that pilots were trying to perform an evasive maneuver to avoid the crash.
The collision happened around 9 p.m. EST while the regional jet was preparing to land at the airport. The jet from Wichita, Kansas, was carrying 64 people onboard, while three soldiers were on board the helicopter, which apparently flew into the jet’s path. No one survived the crash.
NTSB member Todd Inman expressed frustration to reporters, noting that the board has made "several hundred" recommendations to improve aviation safety that have not been acted upon.
"You want to do something about it? Adopt the recommendation of the NTSB. You’ll save lives," he said, adding that he has spent hours with victims' families since the crash. "I don’t want to have to meet with those parents like that again."
Families of victims visited the crash site on Sunday and divers scoured the submerged wreckage for more remains after authorities said they've recovered and identified 55 of the 67 people killed.
Officials said they are confident all the victims will be recovered from the chilly Potomac River.
NTSB investigators hope to have a preliminary report within 30 days, though a full investigation could take at least a year.
This is the first I've heard of the airliner being low on altitude. Setting the altimeter to the correct Density Altitude prior to take off from the departing airport and then resetting it to the destination was standard procedure. With Army helicopters and the shorter distances covered between those two locations is not normally as big of an issue as it could/would be with commercial flights normally covering much greater distances and different weather conditions. I'm not suggesting that wasn't done, it could be the airliner pilot allowed their aircraft to settle to below minimums if the above information is accurate.
The Blackhawk does appear to be higher than 200 feet (to me) and as stated in the article, Control Tower "estimates" aren't always accurate but, this story only emphasizes the need for either less traffic at that airport or other changes. It does appear that there should have been a second controller on duty versus a single controller directing traffic for both the fixed wing and rotary aircraft. If, the control tower estimate of the Blackhawk altitude is close to accurate, then the airliner must have been below that 325 feet.
NTSB recommendations have for years, fallen on deaf FAA ears. A long time ago, NTSB recommended none of the flight crews (pilots or navigators) be allowed to wear jewelry...rings or watches. FAA did not act on it. In around 2019, a pilot's wristwatch was said (by final NTSB report) to be the cause of the loss of an Atlas Air 767 cargo jet nto Trinity Bay Texas, killing all 3 on board.
Originally posted by maryjane: NTSB recommendations have for years, fallen on deaf FAA ears. A long time ago, NTSB recommended none of the flight crews (pilots or navigators) be allowed to wear jewelry...rings or watches. FAA did not act on it. In around 2019, a pilot's wristwatch was said (by final NTSB report) to be the cause of the loss of an Atlas Air 767 cargo jet nto Trinity Bay Texas, killing all 3 on board.
OSHA recommended no jewelry for oil field drilling workers on a drilling rig. Perhaps required as it would be a violation of regulations. It was a industry wide safety rule.
OSHA recommended no jewelry for oil field drilling workers on a drilling rig. Perhaps required as it would be a violation of regulations. It was a industry wide safety rule.
While at Ft. Carson, we had a safety day. One of our speakers was a young crew chief who discussed wearing jewelry and watches while on the flight line. It has been and still is a safety rule around Army aircraft, no jewelry. That young man was brought in just so he could tell his story. He was one that refused to remove his wedding ring and would only do so if someone caught him. That young man no longer had a left hand ring finger. He showed up the pictures of his hand before the stripped bone was removed/amputated. It wasn't pretty.
Have also seen such things in factory production. When I was a Production Manager, wearing such jewelry would get the employee a three day layoff, a second infraction would be reason for termination. IOWs, if you're gonna get hurt, it won't be here.
Rams
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 02-03-2025).]
looks like long term under funding of the air traffic controllers
goes back to rayguns strike and mass firing
they never had a training system for them relying on military trained people but there never were as many as needed nothing bad can happen right rightwingers ????
gee who said cut cut cut the government that has too much waste nothing bad can happen right rightwinge?rs ???? we have no need for excess air traffic controllers one over worked guy is fine most of the time nothing bad can happen right rightwingers ????
just the pre-cut before the rump and e-or slash the government so nothing bad can happen right rightwingers ????
Reported this morning that the Blackhawk was at 300 ft. altitude at the point of the collision. This according to the tower data per the report. The Blackhawk fuselage has not been recovered yet but it's "black box" has and will not be looked at until the fuselage is recovered. Supposedly that recovery will take place in the next day or two. Reported that the investigators want to inspect the helicopter prior to getting data from the black box. This doesn't make sense to me but, I'm not qualified to suggest why.
