A side note that I kind of want to mention. Most people don't really understand how our government works... or more specifically, who "owns" what. Most people assume that all these agencies and government departments are somehow (and I'm serious here) co-equal in the eyes of the 3-branches of government. Literally, almost no one you ask on the street is aware that 99% of all government organizations and institutions BELONG TO THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH. They think they all somehow have autonomy and kind of just do the job that Congress originally created for them.
So there's always shock when the president issue orders to Federal employees, and then the Democrats call him a dictator for it. No.. he's the PRESIDENT of the United States, and leader of the executive branch.
EDIT: It's the same as in a company, if the CEO issued an order down to the staff... you do it.
[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 01-31-2025).]
I got in trouble for this. They asked me for my pronouns and I put down Hey you and Mr. They removed them. I don't know who they are but they is the correct pronoun until I have more information.
If you need a label to respect people then there is the problem. If you need a label to force behavior on someone else well there is also your problem.
I always thought of it as a courtesy from folks whose outwards appearance may be ambiguous or cause confusion. If I wanted to be called she/her I've got every right to ask that people call me that, and I think respectful, reasonable people would like to know. As a large bearded individual it wouldn't be immediately apparent I wanted to be she/her, and it makes more sense to let you know up front rather than correcting you after the fact. Everyone else engaging in it was just to normalize the behavior, and let the folks who might need it know it was ok. Seemed perfectly reasonable to me, and when people didn't participate I could assume they are ok being addressed based solely on how they look, and I'm cool with that too.
Originally posted by NewDustin: ... I could assume they are ok being addressed based solely on how they look, and I'm cool with that too.
...and there's the rub. If you want to identify as "somebody" (something?) then you need to, as quickly as possible, look the part, as much as possible. Don't have a full beard, and go into the ladies bathroom. People are going to have a WTF moment.
And I recognize that it's not always possible. I know of a woman, who is very "boyish" in her looks and features, who has alluded to "the prospect of" being confronted when entering the ladies room. I'm not sure if it's happened to her, but I could believe it happened, at first glance. And it's sad, if it has. But, again, I blame the people who want to bend reality, and "be" something that they are not.
I always thought of it as a courtesy from folks whose outwards appearance may be ambiguous or cause confusion. If I wanted to be called she/her I've got every right to ask that people call me that, and I think respectful, reasonable people would like to know. As a large bearded individual it wouldn't be immediately apparent I wanted to be she/her, and it makes more sense to let you know up front rather than correcting you after the fact. Everyone else engaging in it was just to normalize the behavior, and let the folks who might need it know it was ok. Seemed perfectly reasonable to me, and when people didn't participate I could assume they are ok being addressed based solely on how they look, and I'm cool with that too.
Being completely honest, I really don't give a damn. No one has such a right, it may be your wish but, I have no necessity to agree. There are only two genders, anything else is something between two (hopefully two) people behind closed doors. I really don't care what happens between two consenting adults behind closed doors but, force me to acknowledge that and, you've just stepped over the line. I really don't give a damn how you want to be viewed, you are, what you were born as to me. If that's not good enough for some, then I suggest you get with your fiends for support because as I said, I don't give a fly'n .............. Well, I think you will understand my position.
Rams
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 01-31-2025).]
Originally posted by blackrams: Being completely honest, I really don't give a damn. No one has such a right, it may be your wish but, I have no necessity to agree. There are only two genders, anything else is something between two (hopefully two) people behind closed doors. I really don't care what happens between two consenting adults behind closed doors but, force me to acknowledge that and, you've just stepped over the line. I really don't give a damn how you want to be viewed, you are, what you were born as to me. If that's not good enough for some, then I suggest you get with your fiends for support because as I said, I don't give a fly'n .............. Well, I think you will understand my position.
Rams
To me it's respecting other people's liberty. I don't have any interest in telling you how to dress, how to refer to yourself or how to think about yourself...I'm good leaving that up to you. I think people are best when we're encouraged to express ourselves as radically as we want; I honestly think it's the source of our primary strengths. If that means you dress in a way I find goofy and want me to use a pronoun I'm unfamiliar with...what does that cost me in the long run? I would oppose any government intervention FORCING me one way or the other...but seriously what does it cost me to give that to other people?
[This message has been edited by NewDustin (edited 02-01-2025).]
...and there's the rub. If you want to identify as "somebody" (something?) then you need to, as quickly as possible, look the part, as much as possible. Don't have a full beard, and go into the ladies bathroom. People are going to have a WTF moment.
And I recognize that it's not always possible. I know of a woman, who is very "boyish" in her looks and features, who has alluded to "the prospect of" being confronted when entering the ladies room. I'm not sure if it's happened to her, but I could believe it happened, at first glance. And it's sad, if it has. But, again, I blame the people who want to bend reality, and "be" something that they are not.
I said this above, but I think our strength is in our diversity of opinion and ability. I don't know why anyone would be so genitalia-obsessed that they would "confront" someone in a bathroom...that seems insane to me. Then again, the actions this administration is taking expressly force Female-to-Male trans people into women's bathrooms; that's literally folks with full beards who identify as men, are taking male hormones, and are generally physically stronger than women.
[This message has been edited by NewDustin (edited 02-01-2025).]
I got in trouble for this. They asked me for my pronouns and I put down Hey you and Mr. They removed them. I don't know who they are but they is the correct pronoun until I have more information.
When I registered for the VA online utility I was asked (demanded) for my "pronouns" or how I wish to be addressed. I tried to leave that space blank but it wouldn't let me complete the registration without it. SO....I really thought that my "title" might not be allowed, however:
[This message has been edited by randye (edited 02-01-2025).]
Originally posted by randye: When I registered for the VA online utility I was asked (demanded) for my "pronouns" or how I wish to be addressed. I tried to leave that space blank but it wouldn't let me complete the registration without it. SO....I really thought that my "title" might not be allowed, however:
Admittedly, that there's funny, don't care who U R.........
Originally posted by NewDustin: To me it's respecting other people's liberty. I don't have any interest in telling you how to dress, how to refer to yourself or how to think about yourself...I'm good leaving that up to you. I think people are best when we're encouraged to express ourselves as radically as we want; I honestly think it's the source of our primary strengths. If that means you dress in a way I find goofy and want me to use a pronoun I'm unfamiliar with...what does that cost me in the long run? I would oppose any government intervention FORCING me one way or the other...but seriously what does it cost me to give that to other people?
And yet you evidently have an interest in 'asking' people to address you in a specific way.
(I long long long ago gave up my imagined self importance in the world. 7th grade stuff)
I said this above, but I think our strength is in our diversity of opinion and ability. I don't know why anyone would be so genitalia-obsessed that they would "confront" someone in a bathroom...that seems insane to me. Then again, the actions this administration is taking expressly force Female-to-Male trans people into women's bathrooms; that's literally folks with full beards who identify as men, are taking male hormones, and are generally physically stronger than women.
The real issue, for me (and I suspect, most men) is biological males using the ladies bathroom. It's not unheard of for males to "identify as" women, so that they can creep on women in private settings, like bathrooms, locker rooms and dorms. Male-to-female trans people need to have the courage of their convictions. Once you have it cut off, feel free to use the ladies room. If you're that far into it, you're probably sincere in your intentions, and probably already "look the part", anyway. Obviously, there are opportunities for errors, but if you've got a full beard, you shouldn't be using the ladies bathroom, anyway. Goes back to "if you're that far into it".
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 02-01-2025).]
Originally posted by NewDustin: If I wanted to be called she/her I've got every right to ask that people call me that, and I think respectful, reasonable people would like to know.
Why yes, yes you do. Just as others have the right not to. The gendered bended may like them and the two gender folks may not like them. I do not like people who play make believe.
quote
Originally posted by NewDustin: I think respectful, reasonable people would like to know.
Do you mean respectful, reasonable people would oblige ?
I disagree. One can be respectful and reasonable not playing make believe.
Originally posted by NewDustin: To me it's respecting other people's liberty. I don't have any interest in telling you how to dress, how to refer to yourself or how to think about yourself...I'm good leaving that up to you. I think people are best when we're encouraged to express ourselves as radically as we want; I honestly think it's the source of our primary strengths.
Other peoples liberty ? Liberty is a two way street. I also do not have any interest in telling people how to dress, or telling anyone how to refer to themselves, or how to think about themselves.
Yet they insist we tell them .... we should think like they do, and that they are normal ? Telling us how to refer to them ? Are we not expressing ourselves as radically as we want by not playing make believe ?
Originally posted by NewDustin: I said this above, but I think our strength is in our diversity of opinion and ability. I don't know why anyone would be so genitalia-obsessed that they would "confront" someone in a bathroom.
Isn't that just what they are doing in the wrong bathroom / locker room ?
quote
Originally posted by NewDustin: ..that seems insane to me. Then again, the actions this administration is taking expressly force Female-to-Male trans people into women's bathrooms;
Where do they get a penis ? From the man to woman transgendered ?
Originally posted by randye: When I registered for the VA online utility I was asked (demanded) for my "pronouns" or how I wish to be addressed. I tried to leave that space blank but it wouldn't let me complete the registration without it. SO....I really thought that my "title" might not be allowed, however:
However, I out rank you. Long ago I was involved in an on air radio discussion. I told them my pronoun was "Lord".
So is the answer to too much regulation...more regulation?
... and
I always thought of it as a courtesy from folks whose outwards appearance may be ambiguous or cause confusion. If I wanted to be called she/her I've got every right to ask that people call me that, and I think respectful, reasonable people would like to know.
Here's my thought. In the government, most agencies have absolutely no standard at all for e-mail signatures. You might be getting an e-mail from a spy that has HTML daisies all around the border, and flowers and crap in their enormous signature with quotes from the bible and / or quotes from their favorite sports team coaches. None of that has anything to do with work, or needs to even be in there.
In the private sector, every single company I've worked at (which has been a medium to large company) has asked for a consistent and repeatable standard for e-mail signatures. Name, title, position, office, contact information. No inspirational quotes or other nonsense.
When you are working for an organization, you are representing the organization... more specifically, it's not about you (proverbial you, I don't mean YOU New Dustin).
For me, pronouns are clearly political at this point... and it's not needed when the overwhelming vast majority of names convey the proper "sex" for being addressed. I don't buy into the Xi/Xir or they/them (which is generally used for plural), or any of that other stuff. And if the government wants to mandate a look, they have the authority to do so. For that matter... I don't know why the government doesn't just set a standard for email signatures. It was probably like... I dunno.. 30 years ago now, I created a group policy script for the IT people (I was just a programmer) to automatically create default signatures for people by pulling from LDAP, and setting it as default for responses and new e-mails. It's super easy...
Anyway, that's not "regulation," that's just standards.
