Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth disclosed war plans in an encrypted group chat that included a journalist two hours before U.S. troops launched attacks against the Houthi militia in Yemen, the White House said on Monday, confirming an account in the magazine The Atlantic.
Unless it's 4D chess, someone screwed up. But I balk at the headline of "secret war plans."
There was literally nothing in here that even remotely looked like classified information at all.
To that point, Trump had talked about attacking the Houthis rebels and punishing Yemen.
Classified information would look like: - We received intel from a monitoring station in (wherever) that picked up a communication that stated (whatever) - We will be sending two warships into the Strait of Hormuz, and will be using F15s to drop ordinance on Yemen, specifically targeting predetermined sites (x and y).
There was literally none of that.
Also... despite my disagreement with the use of these tools (for a variety of reasons I won't get into), the use of Signal is actually approved for use for DoD officials from information provided by CISA (which actually comes from the NSA and given to them to release, but we won't get into that). Furthermore, these policies were implemented under the Biden administration because they were tired of the media narrative that was created by Hillary with her use of external technology. They were also tired of the fact that people were using WhatsApp and Signal on the battlefield as well (which has it's own problems), so the Biden administration authorized it.
There are NSA-approved devices that government officials can and should be using, but they choose not to because it requires them to have to carry an additional device.
There are NSA-approved devices that government officials can and should be using, but they choose not to because it requires them to have to carry an additional device.
Boo Hoo. lol I would rather walk around looking like BatMan then the clown that leaked something to the wrong people. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.
I wonder what its like to be responsible for every ****ing government employee out there. No I don't.
Look at who crawled out from under a rock to post this. Five months to get over the butt hurt of the ass kicking that Trump handed to your side.
It was NeoCon Waltz who made the error of inviting this reporter into the group. Yet the article is pointedly aimed at Hegseth. I think that speaks volumes about the motivation of the writer. He is going after someone who he knows is loyal to Trump rather than the obvious person responsible.
I hope Waltz gets canned. NeoCons proved in the first administration that they cannot be trusted. It would not surprise me one bit if this is just another NeoCon sabotaging the 2nd administration.
[This message has been edited by Doug85GT (edited 03-25-2025).]
Originally posted by Jake_Dragon: Boo Hoo. lol I would rather walk around looking like BatMan then the clown that leaked something to the wrong people. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.
I wonder what its like to be responsible for every ****ing government employee out there. No I don't.
Haha... the approved devices don't look any different than any normal cell phone, I'll leave it at that, so no one would even know. But you can't install HomeScapes or Candy Crush, or other **** on it (which is part of the point).
Personally, I don't know what the big deal is, but I think people hate having to have two huge phones that they carry around... and I get it, but the logistics can be a nightmare ... you know those personal phones are absolutely being targeted, and are likely compromised. It's a mess. It didn't start with this administration, obviously. But it's a policy that should be reversed.
I think you know as well as I do though, in your line of work... put a Colonel / O6 and higher in a rental car on a long road trip, and he / she basically treats it like a SCIF... full on TS/SCI conversations in a place that has absolutely no business with such things being discussed ... with everyone's personal cell phones in their pockets, potentially compromised.
I have two phones. The two are not interchangeable. One for work that handles all of my MFA and emergency communication My home phone I use for everything else not related to work. Been that way for as long as I have been given a phone from work. Makes it much easier when I just want to leave work at home. I even had two pagers and a flip phone at one point. Looked like a drug dealer. Well dressed drug dealer I may add.
Look at who crawled out from under a rock to post this. Five months to get over the butt hurt of the ass kicking that Trump handed to your side.
I could write a long existential post on how I view this forum, but I do this through my phone and that would be a PITA. It basically boils down to the fact that I realized nothing I ever say will matter here. I think it was Todd that made the comment that had me realize that.
So I left, and if Cliff were interested (he isn’t) he could validate that I didn’t even lurk. But I got curious since there have been quite a few really bad pieces of news lately, what the spin cycle here was saying. I was mildly surprised that they aren’t even brought up at all. I guess that’s what happens in an echo chamber like this.
I was admittedly surprised at the sheer dominance of the Republicans during the last election, but not personally butt hurt over it. I think it’s sad, but I think the Democrats failed on multiple fronts.
How Biden_Joe's blatant incompetence failed to secure a mandate from the people, pucking things up ! ' Don't underestimate Biden_Joe's ability to puck things up ! ' ~ O'Blammo '20 See how pucked up things are, Biden_Joe's weakness his corruption, utter depravity, a failed pretendancy, fleecing the Nation as fast as he could, stuffing his pockets, their offshore accounts, joint accounts, the Biden_Joe_Klan, a kleptomaniac in the Oval Office, billions grifted. ' Hey ! I pucked things up to the tune of $20 Billion into the Cayman accounts ' ' I'm OK jack ! ' Indicted for treason, before a jury, stuttering his derangement. Biden_Joe's hair speech, a blarney tale in which he's the hero. A self aggrandizing buffoon, a chronic liar, a typical dempartie politician, ' I'm a dempartie politician, of course I lie, that's what we do, that what we are, that's who we are, we'll steal from you as fast as we can, then you'll like it. ' ' Gentlemen, there is no way that we can lose ! ' ' I think we pucked up, Kamala was supposed to win, we should have won, what the puck happened ? ' ' Well that didn't work, so, let's try that again, it's gotta work this time ! Candidate Kamala, Gavin Newsom, the new team ! ' The dempartie, no more than toe jam, Trump's popularity doing an Elephant Stomp to the nasty Dempartie_Nazi_Hamas_Communists, the Counter Constitutionals within America, making poor decisions with every step, destined to be banished to the weeds of the wilderness for many decades, forty, sixty years out of power, forever, like. America reclaimed by and for Americans. ' Siss boom bah ! ' Yay ! Trump ! ' All enemies, foreign and domestic. ' Epstein's dvd collection, released, exposing the dempartie's decadence, Biden, Bill_C, Bill_G, Schumer, Schiff, all the big bananas of the elite leader class. ' Watch as Biden_Joe diddles young'uns on Lolita Express, reverse cowboy, explicit xxx-videos, filmed with their pants down, a honeypot sting op. ' Can't keep military secrets if you're a life long child diddler. ' True ! '
Originally posted by theBDub: I could write a long existential post on how I view this forum, but I do this through my phone and that would be a PITA. It basically boils down to the fact that I realized nothing I ever say will matter here. I think it was Todd that made the comment that had me realize that.
So, I left, and if Cliff were interested (he isn’t) he could validate that I didn’t even lurk. But I got curious since there have been quite a few really bad pieces of news lately, what the spin cycle here was saying. I was mildly surprised that they aren’t even brought up at all. I guess that’s what happens in an echo chamber like this.
Dubs, maybe this is the same comment I made last time... but this is a Fiero Forum, and you're in the politics section, where there are like a grand total of about 7 people.
The first question is WHY are you interested in changing OTHERS? If I discuss anything here, it's to get a different perspective of my own, to change MYSELF.
If this section makes you so unhappy, then why don't you spend more time in the other sub-sections, and less time in this subsection? Not that I don't appreciate posts... I did respond to yours with what I felt was a reasonable response. Regardless... it's just politics.
WARRIOR'S WERE IN DANGER STILL HE LIES AND ATTACKS THE TRUTH TELLER
SCUM AND PROOF HE IS ON THE DARK SIDE
I think it's prudent, Ray, that Democrats (and you)... consider this one seriously. The amount of drama that's coming out of this one thing seems to be wildly over the top, especially since this is literally the very thing that Hillary did, to an extent that literally goes so over the top, it's absurdity will be talked about for generations to come. The Democrats fought tooth and nail that it was no big deal, despite the Republicans saying it was.
Democrats fought it so much, that the Biden administration literally created a policy ALLOWING this behavior, on behalf of the fact that people like Hillary constantly did this kind of stuff. Now the Republicans are using it based on a policy that Democrats implemented, and ... well, it's hard to take any of the criticism seriously.
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Dubs, maybe this is the same comment I made last time... but this is a Fiero Forum, and you're in the politics section, where there are like a grand total of about 7 people.
The first question is WHY are you interested in changing OTHERS? If I discuss anything here, it's to get a different perspective of my own, to change MYSELF.
If this section makes you so unhappy, then why don't you spend more time in the other sub-sections, and less time in this subsection? Not that I don't appreciate posts... I did respond to yours with what I felt was a reasonable response. Regardless... it's just politics.
You misunderstand me. This doesn’t make me unhappy lol. I love talking politics, but it needs to be engaging. This used to be engaging, but the forum slowly veered right over the years, and as they did, they either kicked out the liberals and centrists, or they got so annoyed at being on the side of one-sided attacks that they left (like how you never get on Randy for being a total ******* , but you’ll get on Patrick for something 10% as vitriolic).
I think in every conversation, I’m looking to learn and I’m looking to influence. I don’t need to be right, but it’s more interesting to actually get challenged on content. Too often, I’m not challenged on content anymore. So it got less interesting, and yeah to your point, it felt like wasted time.
But now what I find interesting about the forum is different. Now it’s interesting because of the above. Because it’s a real example of an echo chamber that has resulted in political polarization through confirmation bias.
This conversation would be more fun over a beer. But I spend more time here because I haven’t had a Fiero in over a decade now. I want to get one to build with my son, but they’ve gotten too expensive compared to the value I place on it.
Unless it's 4D chess, someone screwed up. But I balk at the headline of "secret war plans."
There was literally nothing in here that even remotely looked like classified information at all.
To that point, Trump had talked about attacking the Houthis rebels and punishing Yemen.
Classified information would look like: - We received intel from a monitoring station in (wherever) that picked up a communication that stated (whatever) - We will be sending two warships into the Strait of Hormuz, and will be using F15s to drop ordinance on Yemen, specifically targeting predetermined sites (x and y).
There was literally none of that.
Also... despite my disagreement with the use of these tools (for a variety of reasons I won't get into), the use of Signal is actually approved for use for DoD officials from information provided by CISA (which actually comes from the NSA and given to them to release, but we won't get into that). Furthermore, these policies were implemented under the Biden administration because they were tired of the media narrative that was created by Hillary with her use of external technology. They were also tired of the fact that people were using WhatsApp and Signal on the battlefield as well (which has it's own problems), so the Biden administration authorized it.
There are NSA-approved devices that government officials can and should be using, but they choose not to because it requires them to have to carry an additional device.
The original article left out the more sensitive info because he didn’t want to share possibly classified information. But now that Trump’s team confirmed it wasn’t classified, more was posted… which would fit the definition you outlined.
Signal is often used by the military for general chats, but not for classified communications. You know a lot more about this than I do.
[This message has been edited by theBDub (edited 03-26-2025).]
You misunderstand me. This doesn’t make me unhappy lol. I love talking politics, but it needs to be engaging. This used to be engaging, but the forum slowly veered right over the years, and as they did, they either kicked out the liberals and centrists, or they got so annoyed at being on the side of one-sided attacks that they left (like how you never get on Randy for being a total ******* , but you’ll get on Patrick for something 10% as vitriolic).
I think in every conversation, I’m looking to learn and I’m looking to influence. I don’t need to be right, but it’s more interesting to actually get challenged on content. Too often, I’m not challenged on content anymore. So it got less interesting, and yeah to your point, it felt like wasted time.
But now what I find interesting about the forum is different. Now it’s interesting because of the above. Because it’s a real example of an echo chamber that has resulted in political polarization through confirmation bias.
This conversation would be more fun over a beer. But I spend more time here because I haven’t had a Fiero in over a decade now. I want to get one to build with my son, but they’ve gotten too expensive compared to the value I place on it.
Look, I don't want to be mean about this... but I disregard the narrative that you're portraying on several things. I was a Democrat many years ago... it's been a while, but other than a few things (I'm against the death penalty, pro-gay marriage, anti-abortion), my views have pretty much been exactly the same as they were in 1996 when I was 18 and voted for Bill Clinton. This presidency is nearly identical to his... it seems all the things I approved of then, are being done now. Trump is definitely not "far right," nor is he a dictator or all the other "theatrical" political terms they use for engagement and fear baiting.
There are now more registered Republicans in the United States than registered Democrats. This is because the Republican "platform" just makes more sense to more people. If we're being completely, I mean COMPLETELY honest with eachother (and yourself), the Democrat party's platform is basically this:
- Status quo for spending - Inflation is transitory (which is not actually a thing) - Open Borders - Trans rights at the expense of women's rights.
Honestly... I don't think anyone even really knows. It seems whatever their policies are, it's the exact opposite of common sense. And yes, I know they have a website and a list of policies.. but that's not what people see, and it's incidental to the last 4 years under Biden. Perhaps under any other Democrat ... but the Democrats blew the last four years pretty badly. It was an unfettered coalition of the most radical cabinet you could think of, that was not being led, but leading. Biden was effectively out of the picture, and it's hurt the party considerably. Which I shed no tears for, because the radical left of the party basically took control during the last four years. That you don't see this even in the slightest... is what kind of eludes me. You've even said (above, I think), that you don't understand why the voting block shifted right? I don't really watch the news, but it's hard to miss the fact that so many Democrat talking heads have basically said the left is the party of crazy people right now, and they don't even know what they stand for.
quote
Originally posted by theBDub:
The original article left out the more sensitive info because he didn’t want to share possibly classified information. But now that Trump’s team confirmed it wasn’t classified, more was posted… which would fit the definition you outlined.
Signal is often used by the military for general chats, but not for classified communications. You know a lot more about this than I do.
Yes, I've seen the update since... and I would say some of it is notionally classified. If there are levels of bad, this is probably least bad. The only real thing in here that I would consider to be classified, are the times listed. Otherwise, I would largely consider this to be a "tear line" discussion from an actually classified document. Generally there are sources and methods. They don't state where the F18s are coming from (though it's probably obvious), or specifically what targets they're going to strike (detailed), or where the intelligence was acquired. But the fact that they do list the times, I would consider that to be CONFIDENTIAL (which is classified).
The DoD and WHCA has hardened phones to perform communications back and forth, including TS tablets that their XOs (executive officers) will hold for them. This has been available since the 70s. It started under the Obama administration (more so really just because the technology became available at that point), where senior executives in the administration started using their personal smart phones. This very scenario actually happened under the Biden administration many years ago, but it was WhatsApp. The excuse for many of these senior execs is that they don't want to carry two phones. The real truth though is that they don't want their information being monitored. Government phones are monitored, and especially under the Records Act, senior executives communications are all recorded and retained forever. Everything from, "Bro, I just crop dusted the secret service van, do NOT go in there, sorry man..." to "The Operation is GREEN LIT, let the flag officer know."
Whether it's Hegseth, or Hillary Clinton, it has more to do with who's monitoring what. I suspect Hegseth doesn't trust the people in the DoD (of which there are thousands, from the IT people that manage the accounts to the Records Act people), any more than Hillary trusted the State Department (and DoD). Either way, the Biden administration approved the policy for use, which should never have happened, honestly, in the first place... and I suspect what comes out of this is a revocation of that change.
As for the military... the military does NOT recommend at all using Signal or WhatsApp, or any of these things... but when working with collateral or 3rd-party partners, it often gets used because our partners don't have access to our encrypted communications... so this is what they revert to. This very situation is actually very common, unfortunately. Of all the capabilities evaluated, Signal was the best one because the encryption is the strongest, and because the founders are both U.S. Citizens and it's located in the U.S. WhatsApp is so weak that I wouldn't even put my shopping list on it. But all the ones in between have various risks, often because they're developed overseas, etc.
I think this is the funniest thing. Because you think this should never happen. Well **** I have news for you. If this wasn't Trump this would have just been a funny meme and we would have moved on to **** you thats why.
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Yes, I've seen the update since... and I would say some of it is notionally classified. If there are levels of bad, this is probably least bad. The only real thing in here that I would consider to be classified, are the times listed. Otherwise, I would largely consider this to be a "tear line" discussion from an actually classified document. Generally there are sources and methods. They don't state where the F18s are coming from (though it's probably obvious), or specifically what targets they're going to strike (detailed), or where the intelligence was acquired. But the fact that they do list the times, I would consider that to be CONFIDENTIAL (which is classified).
The DoD and WHCA has hardened phones to perform communications back and forth, including TS tablets that their XOs (executive officers) will hold for them. This has been available since the 70s. It started under the Obama administration (more so really just because the technology became available at that point), where senior executives in the administration started using their personal smart phones. This very scenario actually happened under the Biden administration many years ago, but it was WhatsApp. The excuse for many of these senior execs is that they don't want to carry two phones. The real truth though is that they don't want their information being monitored. Government phones are monitored, and especially under the Records Act, senior executives communications are all recorded and retained forever. Everything from, "Bro, I just crop dusted the secret service van, do NOT go in there, sorry man..." to "The Operation is GREEN LIT, let the flag officer know."
Whether it's Hegseth, or Hillary Clinton, it has more to do with who's monitoring what. I suspect Hegseth doesn't trust the people in the DoD (of which there are thousands, from the IT people that manage the accounts to the Records Act people), any more than Hillary trusted the State Department (and DoD). Either way, the Biden administration approved the policy for use, which should never have happened, honestly, in the first place... and I suspect what comes out of this is a revocation of that change.
As for the military... the military does NOT recommend at all using Signal or WhatsApp, or any of these things... but when working with collateral or 3rd-party partners, it often gets used because our partners don't have access to our encrypted communications... so this is what they revert to. This very situation is actually very common, unfortunately. Of all the capabilities evaluated, Signal was the best one because the encryption is the strongest, and because the founders are both U.S. Citizens and it's located in the U.S. WhatsApp is so weak that I wouldn't even put my shopping list on it. But all the ones in between have various risks, often because they're developed overseas, etc.
Just to be clear, the messages do (reportedly) include information that is about their source of intel… but it was blurred out because it would reveal an active source, and the reporter didn’t want to cross that line. If you read the latest articles you’ll see where it’s at and it’s fairly obvious based on the responses of the others that it’s likely accurate reporting.
Regarding the other piece. I haven’t changed virtually at all in about 12 years now. I’m not a Democrat (as I’ve said multiple times), so it’s not “mean” for you to say anything against Democrats to me (actually makes me laugh a bit when people think that). I’ve been through this so many times, you obviously don’t believe me, so it’s wasted discussion. I wasn’t surprised by a rightward swing in sum. I was surprised that it was pervasive across virtually all counties, small and large alike.
Originally posted by theBDub: Just to be clear, the messages do (reportedly) include information that is about their source of intel… but it was blurred out because it would reveal an active source, and the reporter didn’t want to cross that line. If you read the latest articles you’ll see where it’s at and it’s fairly obvious based on the responses of the others that it’s likely accurate reporting.
I heard that the only reason why a name was blurred was because it was a current agency employee (real name, and not pseudonym), not that he was a source of intel. Just to confirm, source can be the name of a person who's embedded in a location who provided intelligence to the agency, or it could be say... a deployed sensor that's located within an enemy target space that's reporting telemetry, etc. Things like that. Either way, if there was a source there, that would be classified.
You might think that my lack of knowledge on the current status of this thing is either my desire to not want to know, or a defense of Trump (or something). But for the record, it's really not something I view as that important. This is (unfortunately) something that happens a lot in the DoD and in our leadership... again... started under Obama (not because of Obama, but really the pervasiveness of personal smart phones during that time). If anything good comes from this, it'll result in a rescention of the COTS chat apps for official business (which I would like to see). I don't really view any of this in the level of crisis that the Democrats are currently portraying it. I think an unbiased person can recognize the ridiculousness of Federal executives using a public chat app for military communications, as well as they can see that the Democrats don't really have a whole lot, and they've chosen to latch onto this in hopes it hurts Trump. For me... this just feels like a distraction right now.
quote
Originally posted by theBDub: Regarding the other piece. I haven’t changed virtually at all in about 12 years now. I’m not a Democrat (as I’ve said multiple times), so it’s not “mean” for you to say anything against Democrats to me (actually makes me laugh a bit when people think that). I’ve been through this so many times, you obviously don’t believe me, so it’s wasted discussion. I wasn’t surprised by a rightward swing in sum. I was surprised that it was pervasive across virtually all counties, small and large alike.
Respectfully, almost all of the views you've expressed have been very far-left leaning. I know you believe you're an independent or libertarian... but my understanding of "libertarianism" is antithetical to yours. Unless I've greatly misread your views... you seem to be in full support of Government mandates, regulations, and the Government ruling with an iron fist. When I considered myself a libertarian, I was against big government, and government involvement. Perhaps I was ok with more local and state governments, because I viewed that more from the concept of competition between the states. For example, if one state has bad policy that people dislike, another state can profit from it and gain the people who fleet that state. Think California and Florida, for example. Unless your weight and concentric circles of values are totally different than how I perceive it... I just don't see how you can really consider yourself a libertarian.
Either way, that's really not important, you don't even need to respond to that unless you care to... I won't be offended either way.
What I DON'T understand though, is this comment:
"I was surprised that it was pervasive across virtually all counties, small and large alike."
We just lived through the worst presidency in modern times... I wasn't alive for Nixon, but the theatrics that the country went through to get Nixon out when ... dare I say, all he did was break into an office and steal some papers. You compare that to what the Biden administration did in the last 4 years... it doesn't even pale in comparison. He raided a former President's home... and his key political competition. Literally raided the home by land, sea, and air (there were literally scuba-divers that came ashore). There was a coordinated effort to arrest him across multiple completely absurd and unfounded charges, and that doesn't even begin to talk about the fact that the Biden Administration wantonly used the NSA's data collection service through the FBI, to perform domestic surveillance... which isn't even what that system was designed for ... and he did it against his political adversaries and reporters. It happened so frequently under Biden, that people just stopped reporting on it.
You don't think people saw Trump's home getting raided, and realized how dangerous things have gotten? I know your first thought is probably that Trump deserved it... but here's the thing. You talk about an echo-chamber. The plurality of the country voted for Trump. Many of them don't like Trump (they don't like his personality and his brashness), but they disliked Democrats even more. The echo-chamber is not Republicans... it's Democrats. That you are surprised how pervasive the vote was in this last election, shows that you are in an echo-chamber.
Here on Pennocks... there are like 7 people on a good day. It's not that there aren't any Democrats, it's just that most of them don't really have anything to say, or have a hard time trying to defend Democrat talking points. Rinselberg passed away, which was very sad, because we all liked him. Patrick decided he no longer wanted to participate in these discussions, and I respect and understand that. My frustration with Patrick in these threads is... he's the kind of guy that doesn't like to be wrong. Out of all of his posts, I rarely, if ever, saw him actually engage in a topic, rather... he instead criticized the person saying it. No matter how hard I tried to pin him down on a subject, he refused to actually talk about any substantive component of the discussion, and always... ALWAYS went on to talk about the person, rather than the topic. I can only assume that either he just didn't really know about the topic, or couldn't defend it... but still wanted to support "his side" as he viewed it. About the most we ever saw, was when he would post videos regarding tariffs on Canada. Randye barely posts here anymore. And on that topic... why have I been ordained as the person that needs to keep the peace? Why have you and others determined that I'm supposed to defend anyone on here? Randye doesn't need me to defend him, and I don't... and Patrick is a grown-man too, and doesn't need me to defend him. I always defended Rinselberg... but I certainly didn't need to. Is the idea that because I defended Rinse a few times, that it's now my job to keep the peace? I'm not a moderator on here, I'm literally the same as you.
Anyway, the Democrats literally went nuts, unfettered, over the past 4 years. Biden, I think we can all agree was not really present, and the party elites (if we can call them that) basically ran the show by committee... which was most certainly an echo-chamber. And this is the result. They helped elect (as a result of their own radical incompetence) their arch-nemesis.
Respectfully, almost all of the views you've expressed have been very far-left leaning. I know you believe you're an independent or libertarian... but my understanding of "libertarianism" is antithetical to yours. Unless I've greatly misread your views... you seem to be in full support of Government mandates, regulations, and the Government ruling with an iron fist. When I considered myself a libertarian, I was against big government, and government involvement. Perhaps I was ok with more local and state governments, because I viewed that more from the concept of competition between the states. For example, if one state has bad policy that people dislike, another state can profit from it and gain the people who fleet that state. Think California and Florida, for example. Unless your weight and concentric circles of values are totally different than how I perceive it... I just don't see how you can really consider yourself a libertarian.
Either way, that's really not important, you don't even need to respond to that unless you care to... I won't be offended either way.
What I DON'T understand though, is this comment:
"I was surprised that it was pervasive across virtually all counties, small and large alike."
We just lived through the worst presidency in modern times... I wasn't alive for Nixon, but the theatrics that the country went through to get Nixon out when ... dare I say, all he did was break into an office and steal some papers. You compare that to what the Biden administration did in the last 4 years... it doesn't even pale in comparison. He raided a former President's home... and his key political competition. Literally raided the home by land, sea, and air (there were literally scuba-divers that came ashore). There was a coordinated effort to arrest him across multiple completely absurd and unfounded charges, and that doesn't even begin to talk about the fact that the Biden Administration wantonly used the NSA's data collection service through the FBI, to perform domestic surveillance... which isn't even what that system was designed for ... and he did it against his political adversaries and reporters. It happened so frequently under Biden, that people just stopped reporting on it.
You don't think people saw Trump's home getting raided, and realized how dangerous things have gotten? I know your first thought is probably that Trump deserved it... but here's the thing. You talk about an echo-chamber. The plurality of the country voted for Trump. Many of them don't like Trump (they don't like his personality and his brashness), but they disliked Democrats even more. The echo-chamber is not Republicans... it's Democrats. That you are surprised how pervasive the vote was in this last election, shows that you are in an echo-chamber.
Here on Pennocks... there are like 7 people on a good day. It's not that there aren't any Democrats, it's just that most of them don't really have anything to say, or have a hard time trying to defend Democrat talking points. Rinselberg passed away, which was very sad, because we all liked him. Patrick decided he no longer wanted to participate in these discussions, and I respect and understand that. My frustration with Patrick in these threads is... he's the kind of guy that doesn't like to be wrong. Out of all of his posts, I rarely, if ever, saw him actually engage in a topic, rather... he instead criticized the person saying it. No matter how hard I tried to pin him down on a subject, he refused to actually talk about any substantive component of the discussion, and always... ALWAYS went on to talk about the person, rather than the topic. I can only assume that either he just didn't really know about the topic, or couldn't defend it... but still wanted to support "his side" as he viewed it. About the most we ever saw, was when he would post videos regarding tariffs on Canada. Randye barely posts here anymore. And on that topic... why have I been ordained as the person that needs to keep the peace? Why have you and others determined that I'm supposed to defend anyone on here? Randye doesn't need me to defend him, and I don't... and Patrick is a grown-man too, and doesn't need me to defend him. I always defended Rinselberg... but I certainly didn't need to. Is the idea that because I defended Rinse a few times, that it's now my job to keep the peace? I'm not a moderator on here, I'm literally the same as you.
Anyway, the Democrats literally went nuts, unfettered, over the past 4 years. Biden, I think we can all agree was not really present, and the party elites (if we can call them that) basically ran the show by committee... which was most certainly an echo-chamber. And this is the result. They helped elect (as a result of their own radical incompetence) their arch-nemesis.
handwaving delusions
you guy is NUTS
he is trashing our gov structure for no good reasons apart from greed and spite he is trashing our defense allied structures his people are criminally incompetents and deluded
you still whine about joe who did not screw up 10% as bad over his whole term as the rump cult has in 2 months
Originally posted by theBDub: Embarrassing. So many issues with this.
Came here to see how it was being spun by this group, but nobody is even talking about it! Thought there would be so much more discussion.
Brennan, what is the big hoop d doo by the democrats ? It boils down to this. The November azz whipping they go in November and the fast pace of Trump actions gave them nothing, NOTHING they could say or do to fight back. PERIOD.
I could not possibly talk / discuss this issue with no facts.
You want to talk embarrassing ? Biden's handling of the evacuation of Afghanistan starting with the desertion of Bagram Airfield being one of the most significant. When U.S. forces withdrew, they left behind a large amount of equipment, including vehicles and supplies. Biden didn't even tell the our allies we were leaving and then we left in the dark of night.
Then the bombing of Kabul airfield which killed 13 service members, and then Biden';s retaliatory strike which killed an innocent Afghan including their kids.
Respectfully, almost all of the views you've expressed have been very far-left leaning. I know you believe you're an independent or libertarian... but my understanding of "libertarianism" is antithetical to yours. Unless I've greatly misread your views... you seem to be in full support of Government mandates, regulations, and the Government ruling with an iron fist. When I considered myself a libertarian, I was against big government, and government involvement. Perhaps I was ok with more local and state governments, because I viewed that more from the concept of competition between the states. For example, if one state has bad policy that people dislike, another state can profit from it and gain the people who fleet that state. Think California and Florida, for example. Unless your weight and concentric circles of values are totally different than how I perceive it... I just don't see how you can really consider yourself a libertarian.
Either way, that's really not important, you don't even need to respond to that unless you care to... I won't be offended either way.
What I DON'T understand though, is this comment:
"I was surprised that it was pervasive across virtually all counties, small and large alike."
We just lived through the worst presidency in modern times... I wasn't alive for Nixon, but the theatrics that the country went through to get Nixon out when ... dare I say, all he did was break into an office and steal some papers. You compare that to what the Biden administration did in the last 4 years... it doesn't even pale in comparison. He raided a former President's home... and his key political competition. Literally raided the home by land, sea, and air (there were literally scuba-divers that came ashore). There was a coordinated effort to arrest him across multiple completely absurd and unfounded charges, and that doesn't even begin to talk about the fact that the Biden Administration wantonly used the NSA's data collection service through the FBI, to perform domestic surveillance... which isn't even what that system was designed for ... and he did it against his political adversaries and reporters. It happened so frequently under Biden, that people just stopped reporting on it.
You don't think people saw Trump's home getting raided, and realized how dangerous things have gotten? I know your first thought is probably that Trump deserved it... but here's the thing. You talk about an echo-chamber. The plurality of the country voted for Trump. Many of them don't like Trump (they don't like his personality and his brashness), but they disliked Democrats even more. The echo-chamber is not Republicans... it's Democrats. That you are surprised how pervasive the vote was in this last election, shows that you are in an echo-chamber.
Here on Pennocks... there are like 7 people on a good day. It's not that there aren't any Democrats, it's just that most of them don't really have anything to say, or have a hard time trying to defend Democrat talking points. Rinselberg passed away, which was very sad, because we all liked him. Patrick decided he no longer wanted to participate in these discussions, and I respect and understand that. My frustration with Patrick in these threads is... he's the kind of guy that doesn't like to be wrong. Out of all of his posts, I rarely, if ever, saw him actually engage in a topic, rather... he instead criticized the person saying it. No matter how hard I tried to pin him down on a subject, he refused to actually talk about any substantive component of the discussion, and always... ALWAYS went on to talk about the person, rather than the topic. I can only assume that either he just didn't really know about the topic, or couldn't defend it... but still wanted to support "his side" as he viewed it. About the most we ever saw, was when he would post videos regarding tariffs on Canada. Randye barely posts here anymore. And on that topic... why have I been ordained as the person that needs to keep the peace? Why have you and others determined that I'm supposed to defend anyone on here? Randye doesn't need me to defend him, and I don't... and Patrick is a grown-man too, and doesn't need me to defend him. I always defended Rinselberg... but I certainly didn't need to. Is the idea that because I defended Rinse a few times, that it's now my job to keep the peace? I'm not a moderator on here, I'm literally the same as you.
Anyway, the Democrats literally went nuts, unfettered, over the past 4 years. Biden, I think we can all agree was not really present, and the party elites (if we can call them that) basically ran the show by committee... which was most certainly an echo-chamber. And this is the result. They helped elect (as a result of their own radical incompetence) their arch-nemesis.
Todd, we’ve been through this many times. I’ve literally gone line-by-line through the Libertarian Party platform lol. I’m AGAINST mandates, AGAINST government regulation and intervention, AGAINST crazy taxation, AGAINST things like loan forgiveness. The fact is that you don’t see that because you make assumptions all the time and just run with it. I’ve never made comments about supporting mandates, etc. As an example, I posted about the death rate of COVID and effectiveness of safe behaviors and then ultimately the vaccine, not because I think the government should mandate those things (I don’t), but because the Republicans twisted their right to not take precautionary measures as a challenge to ignore all precautions. I was very clear about this, and yet it didn’t matter — I was branded as pro-government because this echo chamber is so loud that nothing else was heard.
You think I’m in an echo chamber, but I’m an executive at the top financial firm in the U.S. and our c-suite was and is (almost) all anti-Trump because he’s bad for business and international relations. We had models for both and a Republican win showed significant more likelihood of a recession, and worse company performance overall. I think our country’s debt is crazy high and needs to be cut down through a drastic cut in spending, and the Democrats aren’t going to do that. But at the end of four years, I believe our country and debt load is going to be worse than we’d be under Harris, and many economists and analysts agree with me.
I never said you needed to keep the peace. My point is that most members, you included, will comment post after post after post about the character and motivations of someone if they’re left-leaning or even claim to be center. You’ll ignore comments that are far worse when they align politically. I don’t bring this up because I want every one of us to be 100% equitable; that’s impossible. I bring it up because it’s true and it absolutely changed the dynamic of the T/OT and then Politics sections over time. There are maybe 7 active members here now, but that wasn’t always true. Rinse was not well liked here and pretending he was is just ignoring the reality because he’s dead. I liked him, Patrick liked him, it definitely seemed like you did. But no, he was not well liked nor treated well despite virtually always maintaining decorum. He’s a perfect example of what I’m talking about.
Originally posted by theBDub: As an example, I posted about the death rate of COVID and effectiveness of safe behaviors and then ultimately the vaccine, not because I think the government should mandate those things (I don’t), but because the Republicans twisted their right to not take precautionary measures as a challenge to ignore all precautions.
I am not sure I understand exactly what you are implying. Brenen, the government at the time, was democrat. They put covid infected in nursing homes, exposing the most vulnerable (age, respiratory wise). They kept kids from going to school, who were the most respiratory healthy. At great cost to the children. Even after giving the teachers unions millions, if not a billion + of dollars to mitigate risks. What was the death rate per capita between democrat States and republican States ? New York City wanted many ventilators. How many did they use ?
My Wife caught covid. I lived with her in the same apartment at the time and, wearing no mask, I did not catch it. Twice. The efficacy of the mask was never studied. NEVER. It was an accepted concept. The mask was actually an effigy of protection. If a fart can escape blue jeans, ...
Likewise, the six foot social distance rule was not studied ! The vaccine, also a farce. My Wife's sister got some hydroxychloroquine from a street dealer her Pastor. The one Big Pharma could not make billions from. My Wife was cured in five days.
Brenon, the CDC was caught in collaboration with the teacher unions to dictate covid mandates. Collaboration / collusion ?
How does one twist their right to be free ? To not take precautionary measures as a challenge to ignore all precautions. It's called freedom.
quote
Originally posted by theBDub: As an example, I posted about the death rate of COVID and effectiveness of safe behaviors and then ultimately the vaccine, not because I think the government should mandate those things (I don’t), but because the Republicans twisted their right to not take precautionary measures as a challenge to ignore all precautions. I was very clear about this, and yet it didn’t matter — I was branded as pro-government because this echo chamber is so loud that nothing else was heard.
Brenon (I would like to use the correct spelling of you name. Remind me (us) please) , The death rate of covid was only because natural, God provided immunity, had not had a chance to take effect. Why did covid disappear ? What is the death rate of covid today ? Including all that refused the jab, and were fired, even kicked out of the military ? Is your booster up to date from a rushed vaccine which did not go through regular approval process ?
Biden said ... "the unvaccinated need to get the vaccine to protect the vaccinated".
I check in to P&R occasionally to see which way the winds blowing, and it's the same old same old. I'm glad I'm not participating here any longer.
Then I see that Brennan (theBDub), after a long absence, has started a thread. This captures my interest as I've always respected what Brennan has had to say.
Of course, he gets a warm welcome by one of the usual suspects. It's no wonder that most PFF members can't be bothered to post in P&R.
And then, as an added bonus, Todd has some comments about me...
quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
Patrick decided he no longer wanted to participate in these discussions, and I respect and understand that.
Okay, so far so good, but...
quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
My frustration with Patrick in these threads is... he's the kind of guy that doesn't like to be wrong. Out of all of his posts, I rarely, if ever, saw him actually engage in a topic, rather... he instead criticized the person saying it. No matter how hard I tried to pin him down on a subject, he refused to actually talk about any substantive component of the discussion, and always... ALWAYS went on to talk about the person, rather than the topic. I can only assume that either he just didn't really know about the topic, or couldn't defend it... but still wanted to support "his side" as he viewed it. About the most we ever saw, was when he would post videos regarding tariffs on Canada.
Todd reverts back to his usual form.
Some things never change.
Brennan, glad to see you're doing well. And just to comment on the subject matter of your thread... I can't believe slimeball Pete Hegseth is the Secretary of Defense of the most powerful nation on earth. This is truly frightening. Even without listening to his words (which are totally without substance), look at his body language when asked questions by the media. You wouldn't want to buy a used car from this guy! I'm afraid the US is in for a rough ride over the next four years.
Originally posted by theBDub: Todd, we’ve been through this many times. I’ve literally gone line-by-line through the Libertarian Party platform lol. I’m AGAINST mandates, AGAINST government regulation and intervention, AGAINST crazy taxation, AGAINST things like loan forgiveness. The fact is that you don’t see that because you make assumptions all the time and just run with it. I’ve never made comments about supporting mandates, etc. As an example, I posted about the death rate of COVID and effectiveness of safe behaviors and then ultimately the vaccine, not because I think the government should mandate those things (I don’t), but because the Republicans twisted their right to not take precautionary measures as a challenge to ignore all precautions. I was very clear about this, and yet it didn’t matter — I was branded as pro-government because this echo chamber is so loud that nothing else was heard.
Let me be real frank with you... the only time you ever post, is in defense of the Democrats, or in criticism of the Republicans. My wife, for the longest time called herself an independent, but still voted Democrat. I told her she was a Democrat, and she insisted she was independent (she votes Republican now because Biden was just too much). So I think you know where I'm going with this... you might WANT to not be a Democrat, but you are still very much a Democrat.
quote
Originally posted by theBDub: You think I’m in an echo chamber, but I’m an executive at the top financial firm in the U.S. and our c-suite was and is (almost) all anti-Trump because he’s bad for business and international relations. We had models for both and a Republican win showed significant more likelihood of a recession, and worse company performance overall. I think our country’s debt is crazy high and needs to be cut down through a drastic cut in spending, and the Democrats aren’t going to do that. But at the end of four years, I believe our country and debt load is going to be worse than we’d be under Harris, and many economists and analysts agree with me.
Let's agree to revisit this in 2 years, and then again in 4 years. Your estimation is hypothetical... so it's going to be hard for you to actually prove your hypothesis. Harris didn't really have an economic policy, except to copy the things that sounded good from Trump... so we'll see. But I think we're on a good track right now. The hardest thing is going to be to cut government the way they have, and still encourage private sector growth. Currently our economy relies on more than 30% of Government spending... which (except for jumps like during COVID) is the highest it's been in a very long time. It should be down to 10% or less... and I think we can get there.
quote
Originally posted by theBDub: I never said you needed to keep the peace. My point is that most members, you included, will comment post after post after post about the character and motivations of someone if they’re left-leaning or even claim to be center. You’ll ignore comments that are far worse when they align politically. I don’t bring this up because I want every one of us to be 100% equitable; that’s impossible. I bring it up because it’s true and it absolutely changed the dynamic of the T/OT and then Politics sections over time. There are maybe 7 active members here now, but that wasn’t always true. Rinse was not well liked here and pretending he was is just ignoring the reality because he’s dead. I liked him, Patrick liked him, it definitely seemed like you did. But no, he was not well liked nor treated well despite virtually always maintaining decorum. He’s a perfect example of what I’m talking about.
So you're saying that it's not my job, but then calling me out when I don't do that job? And then this...
"You’ll ignore comments that are far worse when they align politically."
... I was directly responsible for getting SourMash banned... who considered himself a rabid Republican. You're welcome.
quote
Originally posted by Patrick: I check in to P&R occasionally to see which way the winds blowing, and it's the same old same old. I'm glad I'm not participating here any longer.
Then I see that Brennan (theBDub), after a long absence, has started a thread. This captures my interest as I've always respected what Brennan has had to say.
Of course, he gets a warm welcome by one of the usual suspects. It's no wonder that most PFF members can't be bothered to post in P&R.
And then, as an added bonus, Todd has some comments about me...
Todd reverts back to his usual form.
Some things never change.
Brennan, glad to see you're doing well. And just to comment on the subject matter of your thread... I can't believe slimeball Pete Hegseth is the Secretary of Defense of the most powerful nation on earth. This is truly frightening. Even without listening to his words (which are totally without substance), look at his body language when asked questions by the media. You wouldn't want to buy a used car from this guy! I'm afraid the US is in for a rough ride over the next four years.
Respectfully Patrick, I was a spy long enough to understand the human condition. You don't check in from time to time, you do it a lot... and you've been desperately trying not to respond, but this time was just a bit too tempting (or itchy) for you not to scratch. I get it... I'm a human too Patrick.
As for Hegseth, I was less than thrilled about his background on multiple wives and things like that. I don't know how much of it is true or not... but Pete's appointment a Sec Def is the "underdog" story. You've got someone who was effectively a grunt, if you will. Well liked amongst his peers, but never slated to rise through the ranks as other officers (largely as he was in the reserves). For someone like him (who left as an O4 I believe) to be appointed to oversee the O7 and up... is a nightmare scenario for most of the senior leaders within the military. There's a lot of backroom deals, hand shakes, and other arrangements that often happen once an officer reaches O4. Most will retire as an O4 or an O5, some make it to Colonel or Captain (Navy / Coast Guard)... but by O4, many already know if they're on a track to eventually become a general. There's a lot of consensus building that happens at those levels, and not all of it is ideal. In many cases, it's helping out someone else so they'll help you out... a "good ole' Boy's club" if you want to call it that.
Think of it like putting the janitor in charge... he knows everyone's trash... and now he's running the show.
Respectfully Patrick, I was a spy long enough to understand the human condition. You don't check in from time to time, you do it a lot... and you've been desperately trying not to respond, but this time was just a bit too tempting (or itchy) for you not to scratch.
This thread caught my attention because it was started by Brennan. I knew it would be a step above the usual nonsense posted in this section.
In regards to the rest of your comment... you're not the omnivident being you believe yourself to be.
This thread caught my attention because it was started by Brennan. I knew it would be a step above the usual nonsense posted in this section.
In regards to the rest of your comment... you're not the omnivident being you believe yourself to be.
I'm definitely not, but I am a good judge of character, you're a good person, but I already knew you wouldn't respond at all to the political stuff (in this last reply), and only respond to the part which made you respond in the first place... even though you posted the video, as if to show us that you do not do the very thing with which I said you do. But if I'm being honest, I'm more interested in your thoughts on my response about the politics, than the reason why you're posting.
If I can be a bit more broad... I am often frustrated when I debate with people on the left, because I tend to think most of their opinions are emotionally based. You've not stated why you think Pete Hegseth is undesirable to you, merely stated you think so. I can never seem to get you to explain WHY you have an opinion on something, unless it's technical. But respectfully, this is how most conversations with Democrats often go (not just with me, but observing it on other forums with others). Not so much with Dubs, so if there was anything that made me believe he wasn't a Democrat, it's because he'll actually go back and forth on something in a truly organic manner, and less emotional (usually). He did get a little theatrical just before the election.
You've not stated why you think Pete Hegseth is undesirable to you...
The video I linked to would tell you everything you'd need to know... if you were capable of actually watching it without internally filtering out what you don't wish to see.
This is exactly why I don't wish to participate in this section of the forum. It's an absolute total waste of time.
Patrick: Good to see you. To be fair, Todd included you because I brought you up first. He was just responding to me.
Todd: This forum doesn’t have a “like” function. You can’t see when I just agree with someone. I mostly comment when I have something to add. Being that the forum is largely Republican, and I’m mostly commenting when I’m disagreeing with something, I’m largely commenting when disagreeing with a Republican. Again, you made an assumption somewhere along the line and just ran with it.
I don’t even remember SourMash. I completely ignore the comments that are hard to follow like Ray and the guy who always posts in the custom color and calls Biden “Biden_Joe”. I’m sure they’re coherent in person, but it doesn’t translate to text lol.
Patrick: Good to see you. To be fair, Todd included you because I brought you up first. He was just responding to me.
Brennan, I was aware that you had brought my name up initially... but Todd was only too happy to jump at the opportunity to post the same tiresome bogus rhetoric about me that he's stated many times here previously.
quote
Originally posted by theBDub:
I don’t even remember SourMash.
Lucky you! sourmash was the one unifying force in O/T, as he pissed off just about everybody. Not sure how/why Todd takes credit for sourmash's dismissal from the forum. However, I highly doubt it's worthwhile rehashing. No wait, let me rephrase that. I highly doubt it's worthwhile hearing Todd's version of the events leading up to sourmash's dismissal from the forum.
The video I linked to would tell you everything you'd need to know... if you were capable of actually watching it without internally filtering out what you don't wish to see.
This is exactly why I don't wish to participate in this section of the forum. It's an absolute total waste of time.
Not trying to be mean Patrick... but what of the video? I want to know YOUR OPINION on something. Why do you automatically assume everyone is just going to automatically assume / think the very same thing you do when watching the same video?
This is what I keep saying, it's RARE... extremely rare, that you actually engage in anything. Posting a video, and expecting everyone to come out of it the exact same way you do is ridiculous. You don't engage, you troll. Tell me what YOUR OPINION, concisely why you believe the way you do, otherwise you're just wasting people's time.
Also, welcome back, you lasted a month.
quote
Originally posted by theBDub:
I don’t even remember SourMash. I completely ignore the comments that are hard to follow like Ray and the guy who always posts in the custom color and calls Biden “Biden_Joe”. I’m sure they’re coherent in person, but it doesn’t translate to text lol.
He was OK at first, was really anti-Democrat, but really not a nice guy about it. Eventually he started getting flat-out racist. Not in the way that typical Democrats throw the term around, he legitimately was racist.
quote
Originally posted by Patrick: I highly doubt it's worthwhile hearing Todd's version of the events leading up to sourmash's dismissal from the forum.
I coordinated a NEG campaign against him, for a specific time, etc. It could just be that it was coincidental, and maybe Cliff banned him, but I DM'ed a bunch of people, including you.
For the record, that's not how the other guy, FredToast was removed... he did that all on his own.
sourmash was the one unifying force in O/T, as he pissed off just about everybody. Not sure how/why Todd takes credit for sourmash's dismissal from the forum. 
