I chose a Fiero with the 5 speed to begin with for ease of swap. If I wanted to build a drag/strip "racecar", I would recommend going with an automatic. The 4T65E HD stock handles quite a bit of power. They can also be built to handle loads more power. The factory Fiero TH125 automatic unfortunately does not hold up to a lot of HP. If you go GTP automatic, plan on custom building an axle, getting different mounts, building a trans cooler setup (simple enough), and a special adapter for the shift linkage which seems a little close to the exhaust. I have heard good things about the Fiero 4 speed manual trans but I have also heard that the gearing is not ideal for highway driving. As my daily driver I wanted the "fun factor" of a 5 speed. If/when I destroy my 282 getrag, the F23 trans is readily available. The gearing is very similar and it supposedly can handle a bit more power. The F23 will require different mounts. There is no modification to the 282 getrag; it uses the same mounts, axles, shift brackets, etc. Some may chose to swap a trans: stick to auto, auto to stick, etc.....sounds like a lot of work to me but it can be done. I wanted to start with a good base, that's why I went out seeking a 88 5speed. A custom flywheel is required to bolt a 3800SC to a fiero 5 speed 282 getrag. This may or may not prove to be a challenge depending on where you live. I will share my flywheel story but, my advise: just buy one from a PFF member. Time is money! There might be quite a few that "make" this flywheel. As of today, when I am posting this, I'm pretty sure Roger "fierorog" is the guy. He is also starting to make most mounts also. I have not seen nor used his products, but I have not heard any negative remarks neither. After reading through the archives, many fabricators have come and gone for various reasons. I again want to thank all those that have been a part of this forum over the years and contributing an immense amount of knowledge!! Roger...you're welcome; feel free to chime in on this thread if you so desire.
WOW!! Page 2 and I haven't been kicked out yet! This calls for more numbers, (I am kind of a numbers guy). I like the 1988 model year the best but I am willing to share production numbers for other years, just ask. No, I did not come up with these numbers myself, THANK YOU PFF! Yes, you can use the search option and burn up hours of time. I have found, copied, pasted, printed: model numbers by year. ie: how many SE models in 1987? 3875. Also, colors by year. ie: how many silver cars in 1984? 9579.
The total number of yellow Fieros ever made 1,166. Of those 649 had the 5spd. and 517 had the automatic.
1988 GT: total 6,849 (lowest number year/model). Plain roof: 2,323. Sunroof: 3,912. T-Tops: 614.
Flywheel: To bolt a L67 3800SC to a Fiero 282 Getrag, you need a custom flywheel. This flywheel needs to bolt to a 3.8L crank so the flywheel should come off of a L32 3.8 V6 Camaro or Firebird 1996-2002. The L67 3800SC engine was never bolted to a manual transmission. I bought my flywheel from a local salvage yard. It came off of a '98 Camaro. I paid $40 delivered. In order for it to physically fit into the bell housing, the flywheel needs to be machined down to .840, approx. the same thickness as the stock Fiero flywheel. But, it also needs to be balanced! The L32 3800NA flywheel is balanced by itself, the L67 3800SC is balanced with the crank. Internal/ external balance is very different and if not proper done could cause inbalance problems starting with a vibration and leading to engine failure long term. I have no idea how to properly balance a flywheel. Some say to bolt the L67 flexplate to the L32 flywheel 180* off, then balance to zero.....HUH? I called every machine shop in the area, some of which I have worked with in the past on other projects, they all told me I was "crazy" and "good luck". A few machine shops would do the balancing if I brought them the whole engine to be balanced: crank, harmonic balancer, rods, pistons, ect. I sent a text message to phonedawgs and he responds: Baril Engine in Green Bay. THANK YOU TIMM!!! I never thought of calling a racing engine shop. I called them up and talked to John. He said he could do it and quoted me $120 starting, but he didn't sound very confident. I called a second place in Appleton who sounded very confident. I won't reveal the name of this shop but it rhymes with B and B racing engers. He quotes me $40- $50. I dropped off the flywheel and flexplate. He said his balancing guy was off for a week with a broken hip or leg or something. No big deal...I was planning on going on vacation and the week before and the week after vaca is always a little crazy! I told him I would pick it up it 3 weeks. Long story short, 3 months later and several trips there with my micrometer, it was done. I had to fight with them to machine it down! The first time it was still over an inch thick. The next time it was around .875 and they said: " it's only .035 too big, that's not much." Oh, it will only take .035 of material out of my transmission!! The final product was closer to .83 than .84. They explained that they put the flexplate on the balancer and take a reading. Then they put the flywheel on and match the imbalance by removing material from the engine side of it. The two are referenced by the "oval" shape bolt hole. I guess I have to take their word on it. Because they machined and balanced it at least 3 times, they hit me with $120 bill. I highly would not recommend doing business with them. They have the worst communication and phone skills. This is the cleaned up version of the story. Pictures to follow...
[This message has been edited by AutoMarshal (edited 06-24-2014).]
"this is the first engine going into my car, probably not the last".
Of course a smaller SC pulley is going on but what else?
"this is the first engine going into my car, probably not the last".
If you don't match the pulley size to other appropriate mods, you better change that statement to "first engine, Definitely not the last"
quote
Originally posted by AutoMarshal:
I can't believe I haven't heard: "just leave all the evap stuff open, or just plugged it all up, or just rip that charcoal canister out and throw it way." All of which would most likely be good answers.
you're starting to scare me, Marshal ...
[This message has been edited by PaulJK (edited 06-24-2014).]
PaulJK, thank you for reading this thread and commenting. I have never been in a car club or part of a forum before this. With 25k members or so, I was kind of expecting a build thread that would merit "ultimate build thread" status. I was told this might be the most boring 3800SC swap due to a lack of pictures. I do have plenty of pictures to upload! By far the hardest part of this project was stopping to take pictures. Now I am finding out, it is equally as hard trying to narrate a story after looking at the pictures! Some pictures I have no idea what I was trying to illustrate! As far as mods to my engine I really wanted to keep it "simple". Pulley, colder plugs, colder t-stat, free flowing intake and exhaust. I guess I was just going off of ZZP recommendations. I am still open to other's comments and questions. I am by far NOT an expert! I apologize for such a boring build thread. What direction should I take next? Fuel pump? Coolant flow? Wire harness? Exhaust? I guess I will check the photos and let that dictate my next posting.
I know I mentioned before......if anyone really reads this stuff; I did not want to paint everything and make my car look like a "snap-tite" model. BUT...winters are very long here!! F U 2014 polar vortex! Here is some amazing shots of a 3800 starter. I painted myself in a cardboard box paint booth....
My car is an '88 which only has one heater core hose. The return hose from the heater core on an '88 is connected to the radiator pipe. The feed hose going to the heater core, I will connect to the outlet on the LIM which is the heater core feed on the stock GTP. Some choose to use a modified thermostat housing for the heater hoses. Please be aware that plugging the LIM coolant outlet will add approx. 60*F to an already hot SC. If I had an '84-'87, I would run my heater hoses directly to the alternator bracket for simplicity. The outlet on the TC is the return from the heater core on the stock GTP. I will be plugging it on this swap. Some tap the hole with threads and screw in a plug: there is very little material here to create good threads. Some use some kind of rubber stop plug that can be tightened for a good seal: this sounds like a bad idea to me. I will be using a steel expansion/frost plug. Dorman part #555-017. I paid $.41 for it. I also used a little bit of JB Weld for insurance. Using a hammer and a socket, gently tap it in so seats nicely. FROST PLUG
Going into this project I really wanted a nice CAI. I hate that some people just stick an air filter on the TB and call it good. I call it a "hot air intake". Some people just use the plastic hose that 90's GM trucks use on the 4.3L air filter. I have used rubber exhaust hose on other projects but this swap I wanted a more professional look. The only company that I know who make a 3800 CAI for a Fiero is WCF. I ordered it with a K&N air filter which I payed extra for. It showed up with a cheap import filter. I also ordered a brake booster vac extension pipe. I payed a total of $200 shipped. The vac. ext. was just a piece of fuel/brake line with a barbed end. No matter which way I put it, it did not connect to neither the vac tree on top of the SC nor the vac port on the TB. I did not used it and still have it if someone is interested. I was not charged the $32 they have them listed for. The CAI is suppose to be a bolt on part requiring no modification....WRONG! I had to make a couple of cuts to bend up a small section for it to fit properly. I guess it's not a big deal but I really did not want to cut up my car! I am happy with the overall product and look. It does need to be painted. The K&N air filter I used is part #RU5111. I payed $31.67 from Advanced Auto Parts (AD).
Solman105: thank you for the encouragement! I am NOT an expert on this swap or Fieros in general but if this thread helps you in any way, I feel like I am giving back to the Fiero community that helped me! USE THE SEARCH FUNCTION!! There may or may not be a "right" or "wrong" way......this is just how I did it; at least the first time....
This is a picture of my fuel rail. I wanted to use the stock fuel rail for simplicity and budget. Some modify the stock rail for a cleaner look. Some use a completely different rail all together. My plan is to paint the SC and rail the same color so the fuel rail doesn't stand out as much. Actually, I really don't care that much about the appearance of the engine bay but as I stated before, I have a few months to kill before I get my red car out of storage for this swap. I used DupliColor HP wheel paint which is a higher temp metallic silver. I also used the same HP wheel clear. The clear adds a yellow tint which is to be expected. LLLOOONNNGGG WINTER LATER........ tooooo much clear!! I might have laid on 8 coats a day for a whole week. Now my blower looks gold
Here it is after a good scuff and some taping:
Not sure if I used any primer or not..... whatev
LOVE THIS STUFF! I'm a used car guy though. They have since changed the label on the can. NO, your wheels will not look like that picture on the label.
[This message has been edited by AutoMarshal (edited 07-01-2014).]
EXHAUST FLANGE: Can you buy this flange? Maybe, I don't know. For the budget, I saved my stock one. I burnt up a blade on my sawzall trying to cut it off. The heat hammer worked much better! It actually torched off super fast. I wish I had better pictures of this process. If I find them, I will post them but, the flex pipe after the flange only has like a 2" opening! This exhaust flange will be my starting base for the custom exhaust project. It has a 3" opening. I imagine you can use some copper seal or high temp orange or red silicone for a gasket. OR... metal exhaust gasket part # 61310 was $6.24 from AD. FLANGE
Here is some pictures of my LIM which I tapped and installed a fitting for my coolant feed going to my heater core. The hole measures about 7/8" but you actually need a 3/4" NPT tap. I bought mine at the local hardware store.....they hit me for $30!! If anyone wants to borrow it, please, be my guest (no, I will not ship it to you, just show up by my tool box and take it, nothing says thank you like cold beer). I bought the 90* elbow and barbed fitting from Home Depot. They are 3/4" threads and the barbed end is 5/8" for the heater hose. I like the 90* fitting so you do not need to run a coolant hose near the belts. Take your time when tapping the hole and try your best to get it as straight as possible. Gently hold your LIM in a vise. Turn the tap in and cut some threads, then all the way back out, repeat, repeat, repeat. Take your time. I used a small vacuum to suck out all the aluminum filings. Go all the way down and also use some thread tape on the fittings to insure no leaks. Stock coolant feed hole with a new 3/4 NPT tap:
There is plenty of material to cut! Take your time! You get one shot at getting it straight.
Fittings with part numbers:
Fittings installed with thread tape.
Keep it angled up.
This does not look factory/stock!
But... very functional.....
This gasket comes in a set. More info, part numbers, prices, torque specs to come later.....
Here are some pictures of the EGR delete plates from ZZP. Part # ZZ-EGRBO-I-E. They cost $10.99 plus shipping for the pair. I paid $14.45 for shipping but I also purchased a SC pulley and tools. I decided to spend the extra money rather than just silicone a coin under the stock EGR mounting plates. I have seen some really nice machined block off plates but they were expensive and I believe the guy was from Texas and no longer is in business. I will post more pictures of them installed later along with the ZZP SC pulley and tools.
You can see both are just plain aluminum rectangles. One has a larger hole to run a bolt into the LIM. The other is tapped for a bolt to go through the exhaust manifold.
A new water pump is cheap and it's a good idea to replace it. I got mine from O'Reilly for $26.96 part# 58-531. It comes with a paper gasket but I used a nice fel-pro gasket that came in a gasket set. I will post part numbers and prices for the gasket sets later. Use Teflon tape on the water pump bolts that go into a coolant jacket.
Torque specs are: Short bolts 11 lb/ft + 80*. Long bolts 15 lb/ft + 40*
Old pump picture
If you look close you can see coolant coming out of this tensioner pulley bracket bolt hole. Use Teflon tape on those bolts also.
A picture of some "live action"!
Shiny and new for now
[This message has been edited by AutoMarshal (edited 07-08-2014).]
I have seemed to have lost or deleted quite a few pictures of my engine and gasket replacing process. I apologize. Here is some gasket part numbers and pricing:
Valve cover gasket set: #VS50465R $48.31 AD
LIM gasket set: #MS98014T $54.76 AS
UIM gasket set: #MS95744 $10.89 AZ
Conversion gasket set: #CS9917 $21.09 AZ
TB gasket: #61024 $4.89 AZ
Exhaust flange gasket: #61310 $6.24 AD Torque Specs:
flywheel: 11 lb/ft + 50* (I like to use a bit of red thread lock on the bolts)
clutch: 15 lb/ft + 45* (I like to use a bit of red thread lock on the bolts)
VC: 89 lb/in
timing cover: 15 lb/ft + 40*
t-stat housing: 20 lb/ft
LIM: 11 lb/ft or 133 lb/in (I like to use a bit of blue thread lock on the bolts)
SC: 22 lb/ft
TB: 89 lb/in
crank balancer: 111 lb/ft
crankshaft rear oil seal housing: 11 lb/ft + 50* Other 3800SC specs:
oil pressure: 60 psi @ 1850rpm MINIMUM
fuel pressure: KOEoff 48-55 psi.
compression: 100 psi MINIMUM (lowest: 70% no less than highest) If I am missing something, please ask and I will try to accommodate. Part#'s, torque specs, pictures, diagrams, etc. I am hoping that this thread will be a awesome reference for anyone trying to do this swap.
86soon3.4 asked me via text message about my A/C lines. Summer is really starting to heat up. Now seems like a good time to talk about them. You will need the end that connects to your Fiero and the end that connects to your A/C compressor. Simply connect the two. HAHA.
Most all reputable repair shops have the crimping equipment to attach new hoses between the two ends. That part is not too difficult. The hard part is when you want to do it right and incorporate the high pressure sensor. Apparently the fittings for the sensor are no longer available aftermarket. The alternative is to have a piece of aluminum A/C line that contains the sensor brazed into or aluminum MIG welded. I am not a fabricator so I farmed this out to a local radiator shop.
Some people skip the high pressure sensor and bypass the pcm. To do this simply connect the two dark green with white tracer wires at the pcm. Clear connector C1 pin 22 (request in) and pin 39 (command out to relay).
I was not smart enough to keep the high pressure A/C line from my donor car. I called the local salvage yard and they delivered one to me for 1 dollar. Thank you! If you can, try to get the line with the sensor in it as they are a bit pricey in my opinion. ACDelco part # 95018104 sells for $51.08.
The length of the custom A/C hoses is the same as the stock 3800 and the stock Fiero hoses. Here is why I wanted to keep the sensor functional:
Description: The A/C refrigerant pressure sensor signal indicates high side refrigerant pressure to the PCM. The PCM uses this information to adjust the idle air control valve to compensate for the higher engine loads present with high A/C refrigerant pressures and to control the cooling fans. A fault in the A/C refrigerant pressure sensor signal will cause DTC P0530 to set.
Operation: The electronic A/C refrigerant pressure sensor is mounted to the line between the condenser and the evaporator. The output to the PCM is variable and depends on the pressure inside the line. A higher pressure will result in a higher voltage out. The PCM constantly monitors the A/C system pressure in order to achieve the following effects: •Disengage the A/C clutch if the pressure is above 2700 kPa (440 psi) . •Disengage the A/C clutch if pressure is below 285 kPa (38 psi) . •Boost the idle air control in order to compensate for the A/C load at idle. •Control the cooling fan operation. Replace the pressure sensor if it fails. It is not repairable.
I spent a total of $41 on my custom A/C hoses. My system was already converted to R134A which is really just some different service ports. It takes about 2.5 lbs. of Freon to charge it. If anyone needs some wiring schematics of the Fiero system or 3800SC system just let me know. It took me a little bit to figure it out myself. Here are some pictures of the hoses:
Side by side of the 2 stock hose sets:
3800 high side line with sensor:
The sensor already installed into the fitting (the part you need):
Originally posted by AutoMarshal: The sensor already installed into the fitting (the part you need):
Vintage Air sells a stand-alone fitting which allows you to put this switch in the middle of the hose... no welding required for installation, only crimping.
Vintage Air sells a stand-alone fitting which allows you to put this switch in the middle of the hose... no welding required for installation, only crimping.
On my LS4 swap, I just drilled/tapped the aluminum block that bolts to the compressor to accept the pressure switch and didn't bother trying to splice it into the line/hose.
Keep up the good work, I will definitely be referencing this thread when i break ground on my own swap!
That in mind, do you know where to get 3800/4t65e-hd mounts for an 88? Besides WCF. Fierorog currently does not offer anything for this conversion. Thanks
Thank you Will and Fieroguru for chiming in on this thread! Part numbers and websites are a huge help! The world/ Fiero community need and deserve this information. I LOVE THIS FORUM!! So there is a couple ways to have A/C lines made which gives us options. The member that decides to mass produce these more than likely will keep very busy.
Keep up the good work, I will definitely be referencing this thread when i break ground on my own swap!
That in mind, do you know where to get 3800/4t65e-hd mounts for an 88? Besides WCF. Fierorog currently does not offer anything for this conversion. Thanks
I'm not sure why Roger is not making mounts for '88 YET. He might be buried in other mount building to start another "jig". Roger....????? Are you there???? I think the '88 cradles are not all the same which makes it almost impossible to make a direct bolt on without modification. And, modifying the cradle could be a challenge as the metal seems very "thin" and should be reinforced with extra steel plates. I wanted to have all my mounts made by one vendor. I chose Dan (fieroflyer). I was VERY impressed with the quality. The price was good also. I got Dan's "LAST" set of mounts due to medical problems. I will post pictures of the mounts soon. I liked the fact that Dan's engine mount bolts to both sides of the block similar to the factory 3800 mount. WCF's engine mount I think is just on one side. I also like Dan's upper dog bone design that bolts to the stock alternator bracket. I think this is an incredibly strong design. All of his mounts are very simple yet strong and functional which is just my style! Dan, it would be nice if you could make a comment or two here..... I would like to publically thank Dan for his product and "product support"!!! Marshal
This thread is simply awesome. I'm not in a position to take on the swap just yet, nor is my Fiero ready, but reading this is part of my homework. Thank you for this thread.
This thread is simply awesome. I'm not in a position to take on the swap just yet, nor is my Fiero ready, but reading this is part of my homework. Thank you for this thread.
Thank you turbo86se. I am trying my best to help the Fiero community that helped me. Continue to do your "homework"! There is plenty of different ways to do this swap and tons of great ideas out there. Marshal
Love the amount of detail you are putting into this write up. Keep it up!
