Hey guys, thought i'd send a pic your way...currently I have a shop in my city throwing in a brand new 2.4l le5 ecotec with a custom turbo kit into my 88 gt Fiero. I used Roger thelin's kit to mount the engine, and Alpha fab's engine and ecu to run it. Makes the whole ecotec swap WAY easier. I will continue to post pics and updates. So far here is a pic of the engine with the intercooler mock up out of the car. I will also point a link to the kit i got through Alpha fab. Incase anyone else wishes to attempt an ecotec swap. Below is a list of parts and mods about the swap.
The "easy" way is the expensive way...lol...probably ran me about 10-12k with all parts and labor. But the cool thing about Alpha fab's kit is there stand alone ecu and wiring...you dont have to "rats nest" the wiring of the Fiero together with a cobalt harness for example. Alpha fab's harness is clean, labeled, easy to use and install. The only wires you have to run to the car itself are the tach, oil pressure, and water. Easy easy. You still retain the fiero ecu to run everything else on the Fiero end is my understanding (havnt gotten that far in the swap yet)
So far the motor and tranny have been mounted to the subframe, and the subframe has been installed back in the car, currently they are working on assembling my intercooler setup and wiring...they also need to weld in my new DBW gas pedal. The reason we are doing that is because with the ECU tuning we did and turbo setup, it will have way better throttle response and the ECU was easier to tune with DBW. you can get this kit and still use the stock Fiero DBC system? but your limited on tuning and I think they have to use a different ecu. So in short, less power. Im hoping the swap will be finished and the car fully dyno tuned late next week.
Another interesting thing is WHY they use the 2.4 LE5. certain years are boost ready with semi forged internals, and the VVT!!! Take the bigger displacement engine (compared to the 2.0 which doesnt have VVT) Using a turbo setup with VVT makes the engine have almost a full 100% volumetric efficiency. More power with better gas mileage. Best of both worlds.
Might be better and cheaper to just buy an LNF motor complete plus the Alpha ECM for $900. Shouldn't set you back more than about $4,000 plus a few bucks for the mounts and maybe IC from Alpha.
I think they are a bit optimistic on their projected numbers, BTW, but mid 300s at the crank are easily doable. With the LNF, much more is available, from around 350 bhp with a tune to 500 with different turbo and stronger bottom end.
So looks like the turbo and ic mock up is not fitting correctly...turbo wants to hit the trunk bulkhead...and the IC is too big to fit under one of the decklid vent area's...so things need to be moved and relocated. in the process of figuring that out. I'll know by the end of the day.
I had asked and considered the LNF, and yes it is direct injection and LE5 is port injected. And alpha would have done that if i really wanted too, however the LNF blocks are more expensive, harder to find, they dont have VVT, they dont have as much low end torque and the tuning for direct injection is MUCH harder that the LE5. With the LE5 you have WAY more options for tuning and you get near 100% volumetric efficiency with the turbo and VVT combined...you cant get that with the LNF. I originally called them asking for an LNF setup...but after talking with Shawn there, he convinced me to go with there LE5...(which is impressive to me bcc im stubborn with what i want lol) but what he said made sense and i researched everything he told me. The LE5 blocks they use, (i think 2006-2008??) have semi forged internals so there boost ready, MUCH cheaper and easier to get...bigger displacement with VVT for better fuel economy and better power with LOTS more room for tuning. If you check the ecotec forums you will see guys with the lnf or lsj engines doing swaps to the LE5 and turboing them.
Alpha fab has there stage 3 kit that can get you to 650 hp on pump gas!
I am planning on upgrading the internals in the future when i move to 650 hp (in a few years)
Long story short, LE5 is the cheapest and easiest way to get awesome reliable HP out of an ecotec while managing your fuel consumption.
Im reading that late model lnf's use a smaller displacement 2.4 block to have VVT? but there basically the same block. cept the LE5 has better low end torque. So i would still pick the LE5. The early LNF's and LSJ's didnt have VVT. according to a dealer i spoke with.
Also 06-07 blocks have forged steel rods and internals, (not the crank though i think) which is how there boost ready. But super easy and simple to find good forged cranks and stuff for this block.
Lastley, apperantly the LNF is okay to tune for the stock ecu? (if im understanding it right) but to go to s stand alone system? which makes throwing it into the Fiero 1000 times easier? It doesnt like that, and tuning becomes a pita....the only ppl i know of that makes a kit is bosch, and its 10k, and alpha fab. but again. a pita to tune with both kits. Also there SUPER pricey and hard to find.
i read some guys like putting the LNF crank into an LE5 and building it that way. if u search the ecotec and cobalt forums. A lot of guys are choosing the LE5 as the smart build, better cost, better power and low end torque, "no replacement for displacment" lol. easy to find and tune.
most of the ppl that choose the LNF have cars like cobalts and solstices that can swap over the stock vehicle harness and ecu. and wish to keep there cars stock and have the 'cool factor' of an LNF.
[This message has been edited by 4thfiero (edited 07-16-2014).]
Just got an email back from alpha fab regarding the vvt.
"The 2.0 LSJ does not have vvt, the 2.0 LNF does. However , because the lnf uses a Bosch controller that utilizes torque management only about oh I don't know less than half of the maps have been unlocked in HPT. This includes the cam tables. So the ability to dual in the vvt is limited"
LNF's have had DI, VVT and turbo from day one. The synergy of those three technologies is such that it would be stupid to build an engine with just two.
Trifecta can do LNF (and LLT) tunes... But of course Alpha, whoever they are, won't send you to their competitor when they can just tell you it can't be done (and you'll believe them... :-/ ) instead.
Will a N/A 2.4 have more low RPM torque than a 2.0? Of course it will. Will a port injected 2.4 spool a turbo better than a DI 2.0? Tougher question to answer. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the LNF and factory controller spooled a turbo better than the LE5.
Stop calling powdered metal rods forged; they're not. The only engines GM builds that don't get powdered metal rods are the LS7 and the LS9 (and they get titanium).
I would be surprised, to say the least if the LE5 actually had forged pistons. There isn't a reason for them to have forged pistons. Even the LNF and LSA have hypereutectic. The LS9 gets forged pistons.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 07-17-2014).]
Almost current GM engines have "semi-forged" connecting rods. Whoever said "semi-forged" though is just using the wrong term and trying to make it sound like they are closer to fully forged rods than they are. They're sinter forged from powdered metal.
Anyone who says "semi-forged" either doesn't know what they're talking about, or can't remember the term "sinter" properly.
Listen to Will. Like he said, the only production engines from GM currently getting any special rods or pistons are the very high performance V8s, like the LS7, LS9, and the new LT4.
Originally posted by 4thfiero: Im reading that late model lnf's use a smaller displacement 2.4 block to have VVT? but there basically the same block.
What the heck does the block have to do with having VVT? The Ecotec is a DOHC engine. VVT is all in the head, cams, and ECM tune.
All Ecotecs are "basically the same block," just as all Gen IV LSx V8s are basically the same block. Well, except the "Ecotec" V engines in different markets, which are just a slightly odd reuse of the brand, and the only relation to the Ecotec 4 cylinders is that they might have SIDI and VVT (but they don't necessarily).
the only thing I would like to know about the LE5 is if it has the weak ring lands like the stock 2.2's do .That is the real glaring weakness of the 2.2 bottom end , not the rods .I have never seen a picture of the LE5 piston to see if it has the beefier top ring land or not .Will be very interesting to see how your set up works out .are you using air to air or air to water intercooler ? air to water takes up less space and cools better from my experience having had both on my car .
Whatever im not here to argue my build, if you have issues with my terminology go and call alpha fab yourself, im not a tuner and im only doing my best to reiterate what i was told, they are the experts and are much better at explaining this stuff than me as to why they picked the LE5 as there block of choice. Im super pumped for my build and for the choices iv'e made. If someone else wants to try a 2.0 swap? be my guest. but im doing le5.
WTFB: It is my understanding that the bottom end will hold up just fine, alpha fab has tested and tested these blocks to 400hp with stock internals. But like i said, im the kinda guy who would like to upgrade the internals anyways in a few years, bcc some of the internals are not forged, some are, but some arnt, hense my term semi-forged, im sorry that might not be the correct term...man it just seems like some ppl on this forum are just WAITING like a crouched lioness to punch on someone if they say one thing wrong. Calm down. and who knows, MAYBE if they come out with a good proven stand alone kit for the 2.0? then i will consider switching, but i doubt it. I like the bigger displacement and the better low end torque. Anyways im done with this subject. onto the build!
The shop is looking into ways to mount the IC and turbo since the turbo wants to hit the trunk bulkhead, and i really dont wanna sacrifice my trunk space for the turbo or IC. Right now i have an air to air IC setup. but depending what they see today, i'll ask about the water to air you suggested.
Whatever im not here to argue my build, if you have issues with my terminology go and call alpha fab yourself, im not a tuner and im only doing my best to reiterate what i was told, they are the experts and are much better at explaining this stuff than me as to why they picked the LE5 as there block of choice. Im super pumped for my build and for the choices iv'e made. If someone else wants to try a 2.0 swap? be my guest. but im doing le5.
WTFB: It is my understanding that the bottom end will hold up just fine, alpha fab has tested and tested these blocks to 400hp with stock internals. But like i said, im the kinda guy who would like to upgrade the internals anyways in a few years, bcc some of the internals are not forged, some are, but some arnt, hense my term semi-forged, im sorry that might not be the correct term...man it just seems like some ppl on this forum are just WAITING like a crouched lioness to punch on someone if they say one thing wrong. Calm down. and who knows, MAYBE if they come out with a good proven stand alone kit for the 2.0? then i will consider switching, but i doubt it. I like the bigger displacement and the better low end torque. Anyways im done with this subject. onto the build!
Nobody is waiting to "pounce" all over you saying the wrong things. Don't take responses correcting your incorrect statements so personally. Learn from them instead. If you don't want to learn, then say "I don't know, and don't care" instead of trying to act like you know, and then getting upset later when people correct you. Everyone else is calm. You're the one getting upset over it.
The LE5 does not have any forged internals. The crank is cast, the rods are sintered from powdered steel, and the pistons are hyperteutectic.
Nobody is waiting to "pounce" all over you saying the wrong things. Don't take responses correcting your incorrect statements so personally. Learn from them instead. If you don't want to learn, then say "I don't know, and don't care" instead of trying to act like you know, and then getting upset later when people correct you. Everyone else is calm. You're the one getting upset over it.
The LE5 does not have any forged internals. The crank is cast, the rods are sintered from powdered steel, and the pistons are hyperteutectic.
Then pls post better yourself with better corrections and word choices, some posts are coming off as super condescending, like you want the world to see your car gods. I respect your knowledge and i appreciate the corrections. but to say 'someone who says semi forged doesnt know what there talking about?" thats condescending, im sorry if im coming off as not calm, ive just ran into SO MANY ppl critiquing my projects, calling me an idiot for wanting to mod my front bumper to mimic an 92 rx7 for example (which was done btw) other "professional" mechanics who said an ecotec swap cant be done easily...ive just had it with condescending comments. If ppl dont want to help in a HELPFUL way, then just stay out of stuff...it so anoying.
Ive never heard of the term sintered before. But i looked it up. the diff seems very minor between that and forged. here's what i found, but what exactly is the diff? They seem to do the same thing just different ways?
Then pls post better yourself with better corrections and word choices, some posts are coming off as super condescending, like you want the world to see your car gods. I respect your knowledge and i appreciate the corrections. but to say 'someone who says semi forged doesnt know what there talking about?" thats condescending, im sorry if im coming off as not calm, ive just ran into SO MANY ppl critiquing my projects, calling me an idiot for wanting to mod my front bumper to mimic an 92 rx7 for example (which was done btw) other "professional" mechanics who said an ecotec swap cant be done easily...ive just had it with condescending comments. If ppl dont want to help in a HELPFUL way, then just stay out of stuff...it so anoying.
Ive never heard of the term sintered before. But i looked it up. the diff seems very minor between that and forged. here's what i found, but what exactly is the diff? They seem to do the same thing just different ways?
It's not condescending, it's just fact. If you don't know what you're talking about, there's nothing wrong with that. And you've since said you indeed didn't know what you were talking about, and were just trying to repeat what Alpha Fab told you. I wasn't even necessarily saying it was you who didn't know. I said either Alpha Fab or you were confusing the terms semi for sinter (because humans hear things wrong all the time, especially over the phone), or that someone didn't know what they were talking about.
The difference between sintered and forged is far from minor, but sintered rods are better than the classic cast rods. Going from sintered to pure forged is a huge leap in strength still, though, and a different steel.
Fair enough, but for future reference, same as like a text over phone, facts can easily be taken the wrong way, if you would have said "i think terms are getting mixed up" or "actually fyi, those ecotects have sintered rods, not true forged, most ppl dont use or havnt heard of the term sintered b4, but that's what they are" it comes across in forums a lot better than "they dont know what there talking about" which kind of implies...(your an idoit for saying that) i understand it wasnt necessarily directed at me and u didnt mean it that way, there's just better ways of saying things. thats all. And it's def not just posts like the one u sent. I see it ALL over this forum. So nothing personal.
I just wanted to post my build in hopes that it would help ppl who wanted to do an ecotec swap, but like me, doesnt know how to/didnt want to murge 2 wiring harnesses together and figure out ecu tuning. Alpha fab is a great choice for there stand alone systems. And there reasons for choosing the LE5 as there block of choice made sense to me? And especially if u upgrade the internals to fully forged internals? I dont think you can go wrong. Shawn at alpha fab is a super nice dude who really knows his ecotec stuff. I dont want my lack of terms to give ppl in this forum the wrong impression of alpha fab not knowing there stuff. They really do.
Still havnt heard from the mechanic about the turbo yet.
Thank you for the brief explanation of the sintered vs forged, that makes sense. ironically even the spell check on this technical car forum doesnt recognize the word sintered...lol...
[This message has been edited by 4thfiero (edited 07-17-2014).]
Originally posted by 4thfiero: Thank you for the brief explanation of the sintered vs forged, that makes sense. ironically even the spell check on this technical car forum doesnt recognize the word sintered...lol...
Not on topic, but spell check is a feature of your web browser, not related to the forum at all. For me, sintered isn't shown misspelled. On the other hand, hyperteutectic is, when I type it. Depending on the browser and operating system you're using, it may be using the system spell checking dictionary. You can right-click on the word "sintered" when it shows as misspelled though, and choose Add to dictionary in the pop-up menu, so it won't be shown as such in the future.
The difference between sintered and forged is far from minor, but sintered rods are better than the classic cast rods. Going from sintered to pure forged is a huge leap in strength still, though, and a different steel.
The powdered metal process is in fact very different than forging. The metalurgically and microstructure of the end result is very different. The part design counts for a lot. GM '90's LT1 powdered metal conrods, for example, are signficantly stronger than the GMPP forged "Pink" rods sold as performance parts prior to the development of the powdered metal process.
Lots of people "know" lots of things that aren't accurate. There was a common misconception that '93 Northstar engines had forged internals, but that was incorrect also (I have that straight from one of the GM engineers who worked on the development of the engine), despite being propagated by CHRFab, the outfit that has built more of those engines than anyone outside of GM.
The idea that Alpha can do a lot with Ecotecs and still have some basic facts wrong isn't far fetched at all.
Your car, your decision... just make the decision based on correct information which you can actually articulate, or prepare your fire suit.
What the heck does the block have to do with having VVT? The Ecotec is a DOHC engine. VVT is all in the head, cams, and ECM tune.
All Ecotecs are "basically the same block," just as all Gen IV LSx V8s are basically the same block. Well, except the "Ecotec" V engines in different markets, which are just a slightly odd reuse of the brand, and the only relation to the Ecotec 4 cylinders is that they might have SIDI and VVT (but they don't necessarily).
Oil passages from the pump to drive the VVT are an example; as are different cooling passage shapes and different external ribbing of the blocks, derived from refined CFD and FEA over the course of the production run. There may be deck height differences between the different displacements... I'm not up enough on Ecotecs to know for sure.
So a few concerns from the shop we need to work out
1) Fuel pump, wondering if the stock fuel pump for the v6 2.8 is good enough to run a turbo ecotec...i dont know what the specs are for a stock fuel pump.
2) They figured out how to fit the turbo, thats good!
3) The IC setup needs to be re-done...originally it was gonna sit under the drivers side deck lid vent, but apparently it wont fit, its too big. (Alpha fab didnt have a fiero there to measure, i sent them measurements as best as i could but it wasnt enough i guess)
4) in regards to the IC...i really wanted it up front? like most front engine cars, but bcc the IC is so far away from the turbo and engine....i was told it would create turbo lag...is there anyway to counter that if i had the IC up front? Or not at all...
Originally posted by Will: Oil passages from the pump to drive the VVT are an example; as are different cooling passage shapes and different external ribbing of the blocks, derived from refined CFD and FEA over the course of the production run. There may be deck height differences between the different displacements... I'm not up enough on Ecotecs to know for sure.
Are extra oil passages for VVT actually not in the non-VVT Ecotecs though? Or are they like the passages for AFM/DoD on the Gen IV LS blocks, and are there but blocked if unused? Or are there any extra galleys at all for VVT?
In fact, I think the Ecotec VVT is all controlled using cam phasers with an electronic solenoid in the timing cover, and the VVT cam has a hole in the cam journal, which delivers oil to the hydraulic valve through the center of the cam. so no extra oil galleys are required in the block. It's just different cams, the phasers, and electronics. At least, this is what I can tell from the info I've found, and is how the VVT on the Vortec V8s works, and the VVT on the Vortec engines can be retrofitted to at least any Gen IV LS engine, except maybe the LS4 with the stock water manifold. Though, now I'm tempted to buy the VVT gear and just use an electronic water pump or something on my LS4, so I can get VVT.
So a few concerns from the shop we need to work out
1) Fuel pump, wondering if the stock fuel pump for the v6 2.8 is good enough to run a turbo ecotec...i dont know what the specs are for a stock fuel pump.
2) They figured out how to fit the turbo, thats good!
3) The IC setup needs to be re-done...originally it was gonna sit under the drivers side deck lid vent, but apparently it wont fit, its too big. (Alpha fab didnt have a fiero there to measure, i sent them measurements as best as i could but it wasnt enough i guess)
4) in regards to the IC...i really wanted it up front? like most front engine cars, but bcc the IC is so far away from the turbo and engine....i was told it would create turbo lag...is there anyway to counter that if i had the IC up front? Or not at all...
You will probably not want to use the stock fuel pump, no. Have them install an appropriate high flow pump while they're building the car.
Placing the IC in the front of the Fiero won't create a "turbo lag". It will possibly prove unnecessary though as the length of the tubing required to do that will result in cooler air anyway. But there isn't really any room under the car to run 3-4" diameter intake piping up there and back. Can you go with a smaller intercooler inside the body where the air intake for the engine is? Or maybe two smaller ones, one on each side of the car? You'd need to install vents in the quarter panels, like the IMSA panels or some scoops, to get air through to body and have the car look right, to do it on both sides, but it should be doable. Or you could go with air/water and/or meth/water injection instead.
Unless you are aiming for ginormous power, there really isn't a reason to 3" or 4" IC piping. 2.5" should be plenty for 300+hp. Not that losing a half inch fixes the problem of running under the car. Smaller intake volume will improve throttle response.
Intercooling is the big ***** of mid engine turbo cars. I'd probably try and do a top mount with a duct from over the cabin, or maybe one in the trunk area with a scoop from underneath, I'll bet an air:water in the trunk would be the best/cleanest solution.
Originally posted by thesameguy: Intercooling is the big ***** of mid engine turbo cars. I'd probably try and do a top mount with a duct from over the cabin, or maybe one in the trunk area with a scoop from underneath, I'll bet an air:water in the trunk would be the best/cleanest solution.
Given that it's a "sealed" system, and the pressure and airflow will remain high enough, I'd just cheat.
Basically build a solid state A/C exchanger into a tube, using a few small peltiers to pump the heat out to a heatsink. Position it in some way that enough air will flow over the heatsink and get it out of the engine bay and/or add a fan to the heatsink side, controlled by a temp sensor on the heatsink. It might even work.
the v6 fuel pump is not adequate for the ecotec .you need 55 PSI at idle and the 2.8 fp would not do that on my car anyway .get an aftermrket pump or a cavalier / sunbird ecotec pump .go to my ecotec swap thread in the construction zone and see how easy air to water intercooling is. the only place air to air IC can be placed is where the cat converter is .works not bad , but not as well as air to water .The 06 07 LE5 ecotecs have forged cranks and the same type of rods as the LSJ .all other LE5 have cast iron and sintered rods .even though my gm build book says not , it is true i found out later .
[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 10-23-2017).]
the turbo will hit the trunk bulkhead if you dont tilt it between- 5 to 0 degrees from the vertical .Tilt it straight up , use a Hahn or similar manifold and you wont have a problem .
Are extra oil passages for VVT actually not in the non-VVT Ecotecs though? Or are they like the passages for AFM/DoD on the Gen IV LS blocks, and are there but blocked if unused? Or are there any extra galleys at all for VVT?
In fact, I think the Ecotec VVT is all controlled using cam phasers with an electronic solenoid in the timing cover, and the VVT cam has a hole in the cam journal, which delivers oil to the hydraulic valve through the center of the cam. so no extra oil galleys are required in the block. It's just different cams, the phasers, and electronics. At least, this is what I can tell from the info I've found, and is how the VVT on the Vortec V8s works, and the VVT on the Vortec engines can be retrofitted to at least any Gen IV LS engine, except maybe the LS4 with the stock water manifold. Though, now I'm tempted to buy the VVT gear and just use an electronic water pump or something on my LS4, so I can get VVT.
The VVT Northstars use a bigger oil pump and reworked oil feeds to the heads compared to the non-VVT engines.
Originally posted by wftb: The 06 07 LE5 ecotecs have forged cranks and the same type of rods as the LSJ .all other LE5 have cast iron and sintered rods .even though my gm build book says not , it is true i found out later .
How many did you take apart to figure this out?
If I had a dollar for every time I heard about "special" versions of engines with forged internals...
Basically build a solid state A/C exchanger into a tube, using a few small peltiers to pump the heat out to a heatsink. Position it in some way that enough air will flow over the heatsink and get it out of the engine bay and/or add a fan to the heatsink side, controlled by a temp sensor on the heatsink. It might even work.
Not for any useful period of time, I don't think. TEC coolers are huge power consumers (ie, highly inefficient - <5%) which is why every plan to use them on any scale always fails. A modern car-sized intercooler will dump around 50k or 60k btu/hr, and a computer-sized TEC will draw around 3a and dump about 100btu/hr. To mimic the function of a car intercooler you'd need an 1800a TEC. Obviously, an intercooler doesn't need to be at 100% all the time, but assuming you had a 160a alternator dedicated to powering your TEC it would still be totally heat soaked and worthless in a few seconds at any moderate boost pressure.
IMHO, you'd be much better off with a modest air:water cooler. A small 12v pump & radiator & core can fit almost anywhere, and will be substantially more efficient. Such pumps can be found cheaply on Mercedes, Jaguar, and VAG products - Bosch aux cabin heater pumps. A tiny evaporator (the core from a supercharged Jag would work), and someone's a:w core. People seal up Ford SVO/TurboCoupe intercoolers with good results.
If I had a dollar for every time I heard about "special" versions of engines with forged internals...
i did not take any apart .there are different GM part #s from those years for the crank and rods of the 06 07 years .i did not believe it until it was pointed out to me and various sites said the same thing .
So ive been reading up on air to water intercoolers...from what i see yeah they require a lot more parts to make work, but if i went down that route....would I be able to mount that type of intercooler to the front of my car (my front bumper has been modded, there's a lot of room for an intercooler there) and solve my "turbo lag" issue as well as the piping? I understand getting big piping to the front of the car is gonna be hell..do air to water intercoolers require the same piping? or no.
Okay i'll get a different fuel pump, any recommendations for a good aftermarket one that will work in the Fiero gas tank?
if you look at the pic the intercooler is in the left upper corner .there is a small rad that goes in the front of the car that fits in front of the radiator .all that runs to the back of the car are two 1/2" ID hoses .put the pump in the back or the front trunk , use a fan mounted on the front rad and add an ice box if you want .really not that complicated .go to frozenboost.com for kits and info .
