I talked to Alpha fab again, he said they switched to the MAP/MAF system bcc as he put it "its easier to tune (in theory) but if you have base knowledge speed density is easy to tune as well, just more time consuming"
So 2 different processes to get to the same result. My car is back with my mechanic. He's gonna tune the cold start this weekend and everything should be good to go after that
My information is kind of dated I will admit . But it usually is an either/or thing anyways : you have a MAF or a MAP but not both .
Like Dobey said, pretty much everything GM has built since the early '90's has had both MAF and MAP
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Originally posted by dobey:
That's fine. You'll need a 2 bar MAP if you're running about 16-32 PSI of boost. If you run less than 16, then 1 bar is fine, and about 30-46 PSI you'll need 3 bar.
You're a bar off... N/A engines use 1 bar, up to 15 psi boost is 2 bar, up to 30 psi boost is 3 bar. Some diesel apps even use a FIVE bar sensor, but it has a different lower reading as diesels never make any vacuum.
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Originally posted by dobey: But that doesn't change the fact that you should have the MAF as well, and the cold start/idle tables should be pretty much the same as stock. Cold idle isn't making any boost, so it doesn't matter how many bar your MAP can handle.
My thoughts as well. The stock system uses both. There's no reason to delete the MAF. Alpha screwed up, even if they delivered to you exactly what they intended to.
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Originally posted by 4thfiero:
So i talked to Alpha fab, when i bought the kit, the tune and design was based only off a 2 bar map. So my kit did come with everything it needed. There new version of the same kit comes with both the map and maf. So thats what happened there.
I talked to my mechanic, i asked him if we added a maf if that would make the engine run better. He says he would have to re-tune everything but it wouldnt make it run better, the engine is running perfectly except for the cold start which he's fixing this weekend. Once he throws his o2 wideband kit into the car he will have that fixed, he says if i want i can add a MAF later and re-tune the car but i would get the same results as what im getting now for performance and gauge numbers. So we will see what happens after this weekend.
I think Alpha owes you for your extra tuning time. There's just no excuse for deleting necessary components AND screwing up something they shouldn't have been messing with in the first place. It's also pretty unacceptable to deliver a car that won't start in the cold.
I never got charged the full tuning time anyways. Alpha fab admitted they didnt put two and two together and realize that I live in WINNIPEG...they mainly build these engines for racing in the desert or places it doesnt snow. Cold start was not really something they concerned themselves with. So the extra time it took to tune for that stuff, i never got charged for. All's good.
Hybrid tuning is much more difficult to tune and time consuming, unless u upgrade the stock MAF it's only accurate to a certain point, i called around, there arnt a lot of shops that do it, and those who said they'd be willing are gonna charge an arm and a leg. They either go full MAF or Speed density. My shop would have done either but my kit came with MAP. So they went Speed Density. After doing some more research, most track cars use SD over MAF, some guys perfer MAF over SD...but 90% of the ppl went for SD. So im cool with that. the tune they gave is really good. A good MAP tune should act like MAF. I should be able to take my car out into any weather condition, drive in the mountains and be perfectly fine. the O2 will detect any changes and adjust. And IF something weird happenes? I just data log, send in my log to my tuner, he makes the adjustment...problem solved.
Did you have the spare tire and jack up front when it was weighed? Also I would look at just replacing your stock battery with a 5lb lithium ion battery and save the hassle of relocating. 480 CCA is more than enough for an ecotec...
Originally posted by jediperk: Did you have the spare tire and jack up front when it was weighed? Also I would look at just replacing your stock battery with a 5lb lithium ion battery and save the hassle of relocating. 480 CCA is more than enough for an ecotec...
I'd avoid Li-Ion batteries for such use. The weight savings is nice, but they are more sensitive to heat and overcharging. AGM batteries are still pretty heavy, but would be a better choice than Li-Ion. You can also get a smaller Braille or similar race battery and it should be fine though. But then again, saving weight at the battery probably isn't a great plan for balancing the weight, especially in this car. Moving the battery up front, or going with an lightweight battery will make the left/right balance more uneven than it is now, and moving it up front isn't going to really get you closer to a 50/50 front/rear balance, at least in this car. It might bring it up to 45.20% in the front, with 4thfiero sitting in the driver seat. To get to 50/50 (without just increasing weight where it's lower, with ballast), he'd need to take about 150lbs from the rear and move it up front. Or lose almost 300 lbs from the rear. But short of removing lots of metal and making a custom cradle and/or rear section, I'm not sure there's a good way to do that.
One of those brail batteries would lose a fair amount of weight too. 50/50 weight is not what you want anyways. He has the weight distribution about as ideal as it gets already. Remember, when you hit the brakes the weight transfers forward and when you hit the gas its already where you need it.
Originally posted by jediperk: One of those brail batteries would lose a fair amount of weight too. 50/50 weight is not what you want anyways. He has the weight distribution about as ideal as it gets already. Remember, when you hit the brakes the weight transfers forward and when you hit the gas its already where you need it.
Depends on what you're doing with it. If he wants to road race, I'd maybe suggest trying to get the left/right balance a bit closer to 50/50, and see how close to the center you can get the CG, and how low you can get it too. Getting perfect weight balance may not be optimal in all situations, but for a track car that you're going to turn fast in both directions, it will get you the best balance of control when running around the track. It will of course be very difficult to get that in a stock Fiero chassis though.
What's optimal will of course be different for oval, banked, straight line, etc…
Unfortunately, there's a lot more to being fast and getting the right balance, than just losing or moving weight.
It depends on what he is going to do suspension wise. You can weight jack the suspension for twisty tracks easy enough and I would anyways. The mass is already centered about as well as it can be in a production car as is. Less weight is always desirable in my mind as its less mass to bring to a halt, less mass to get in motion and less mass to change directions with.
Cold Start is fixed! Also got my car weighed...battery is still in the back, i will change that later and re-do. But for now here's where i am at.
Without me in the car:
lf: 636 rf: 593 lr: 761 rr: 733
front: 45.13% rear: 54.87%
total: 2723
With me in the car:
lf: 696 rf: 620 lr: 820 rr: 777
front: 45.18% rear: 54.82%
total: 2913
not bad?
Nice. How much fuel?
Your front-to-rear weight distribution is pretty good. Your left to right balance is quite bad though. You should try to get less than 1% difference from side to side... i.e. 51/49 or better. What springs are you using right now? Was the floor level, and was the ride height even from side to side?
Here are some good tire size sets that are close to your 45.1% / 54.9% front-to-rear weight distribution. The first two are the best.
My suspension needs to be replaced, which is why i posted about the JRZ rs pro kit. The front springs are cut to lower the car an inch or so. (I didnt do that) and the rear is stock ride height.
The scale used was a professional Intercolm E-Z- weight scale mechanics use. It was level.
What can I do to improve side to side weight distribution??? Whats your weight distribution like Steven???
Also Steven, im having Bensopra Motorsports help me out with a custom aero kit. Big wing, chin splitter, under carriage diffuser into a rear diffuser. Stuff like that.
My suspension needs to be replaced, which is why i posted about the JRZ rs pro kit. The front springs are cut to lower the car an inch or so. (I didnt do that) and the rear is stock ride height.
The scale used was a professional Intercolm E-Z- weight scale mechanics use. It was level.
What can I do to improve side to side weight distribution??? Whats your weight distribution like Steven???
My weight distribution, as last measured (with a 140-lb driver) was:
Left front: 655 Right front: 595 Left rear: 833 Right rear: 837
Since it was weighed I have reduced weight in the driver area by about 30 lbs by means of a lighter seat and removing the carpet.
Since the driver is the heaviest thing you can move around a bit (with the next one being the battery), let's look at how driver weight is distributed.
Driver weight distribution in my car:
Front left: 36% Front right: 11% Rear left: 38% Rear right: 15% Front: 47.5% Rear: 52.5% Left: 73.8% Right: 26.2%
Driver weight is distribution in your car:
Front left: 32% Front right: 14% Rear left: 31% Rear right: 23% Front: 45.8% Rear: 54.2% Left: 62.6% Right: 37%
It looks like your weight is already more evenly distributed than mine, so I'm guessing your seat is pushed pretty much all the way back. If you can move your seat a little closer to the tunnel, that's probably the only other thing you could do to help with the weight distribution by moving the driver.
A few things other things I can think of to move static weight distribution toward the right on a Fiero: 1) Lightweight driver's seat 2) Lightweight steering wheel 3) Remove carpet on the driver's side 4) Replace gauge pod with a lightweight gauge panel 5) Lightweight air intake plumbing (not in your case) 6) Single-outlet exhaust on the right side of the rear fascia 7) Move auxiliary components (oil cooler, intercooler, remote oil filter mount, ignition coils, accusump, etc) to the right side of the engine bay 8) Lightweight clutch and flywheel 9) Move a front-mounted battery to under the passenger side headlight bucket
Your right, my seat is all the way back, im 6'2-6'3''
I have stock Fiero seats, i was considering getting lighter seats but was worried about how that would change the drivers sitting height, especially if i have to wear a helmet while racing, i dont wanna keep hitting my head. The stock seat makes my head fit comfortably with 2-3 inch clearance. Is there an aftermarket seat that will allow me to stay at the same seat height (or even go a touch lower) thats lighter and will allow me to move the seat closer to the tunnel???
i have a momo light weight steering wheel, fidenza 8 lbs flywheel, and lightweight clutch. already...moving the exhaust is a good idea but that will interfere with my aero plans...its in the middle of the car as u can see in the pics. Most thing were moved to the right side of the engine bay or behind the passenger back seat (relays, new ecu my stereo amp ect.)
THE Battery...i have an optima yellowtop for that nice deep cycle action...im a computer tech/musician and car enthusiast. Music (GOOD QUALITY sound) is important to me. So i need a good battery that can power all my stuff. Is it possible to move my optima battery to where u suggested? Does that mean removing my headlights for good?
Originally posted by 4thfiero: THE Battery...i have an optima yellowtop for that nice deep cycle action...im a computer tech/musician and car enthusiast. Music (GOOD QUALITY sound) is important to me. So i need a good battery that can power all my stuff. Is it possible to move my optima battery to where u suggested? Does that mean removing my headlights for good?
I don't think you'll fit a full size battery under the headlight bucket very easily. You could put a small Braille battery up there, like fieroguru did with his build. You could put a second battery offset to the right up front as well. Depending how much audio equipment you're going to run, you probably also want a higher output alternator. You could also get a set of the projector housings from doublec4 on here, and get a little more room under the headlights, as they get rid of all the mechanical bits, and mount to the hood. They'll also give you better aero when you need the lights on. With them, it might be possible to fit a full size battery under the headlight.
I don't think you'll fit a full size battery under the headlight bucket very easily. You could put a small Braille battery up there, like fieroguru did with his build. You could put a second battery offset to the right up front as well. Depending how much audio equipment you're going to run, you probably also want a higher output alternator. You could also get a set of the projector housings from doublec4 on here, and get a little more room under the headlights, as they get rid of all the mechanical bits, and mount to the hood. They'll also give you better aero when you need the lights on. With them, it might be possible to fit a full size battery under the headlight.
This is probably your best bet and I would do like Dobey posted above and use a second battery offset to the right. If you are going all out on your suspension and its adjustable you can "weight jack" it to compensate for the left/right weight distribution anyways so I wouldn't worry too much on trying to get it perfect. You just want to get close so it makes the suspension adjusting less of a PITA...
This is probably your best bet and I would do like Dobey posted above and use a second battery offset to the right. If you are going all out on your suspension and its adjustable you can "weight jack" it to compensate for the left/right weight distribution anyways so I wouldn't worry too much on trying to get it perfect. You just want to get close so it makes the suspension adjusting less of a PITA...
Note that weight jacking affects cross weight (diagonal weight distribution) but not left to right or front to rear distribution. Adjusting the cross weight to 50% via weight jacking will help of course, but there will still be a difference in performance on left vs right turns if the lateral weight distribution is uneven, and thr only way to redistribute the weight is to actually move it.
Since Fieros don't have ABS, getting the weight balance perfect from side to side is a big help when it comes to braking too.
How close do those tail lights fit? They look good.
They fit pretty close, no mods are needed height wise, but there is some cutting and fiberglassing needed on the sides to look good. Not a huge thing. Then that panel was made to go in the middle. 91 rx7 3s tail lights. Im gonna mod that panel a little further to look better.
I don't think you'll fit a full size battery under the headlight bucket very easily. You could put a small Braille battery up there, like fieroguru did with his build. You could put a second battery offset to the right up front as well. Depending how much audio equipment you're going to run, you probably also want a higher output alternator. You could also get a set of the projector housings from doublec4 on here, and get a little more room under the headlights, as they get rid of all the mechanical bits, and mount to the hood. They'll also give you better aero when you need the lights on. With them, it might be possible to fit a full size battery under the headlight.
What are projector housings? Ill look into the braille battery, and yeah i put "the big" alternator off a pontiac solstice onto my car, its high output. I knew i wanted that. thx for the suggestion.
And yeah i wanna try and get my weights as close as possible before setting up the suspension. Fun Fun Fun!
With a Aero fascia (or the OP's modified front fascia), you can fit a full size battery under the stock head lights. You have to trim the sheet metal in the bottom of the bucket housing, but the rest is fairly simple. The Coupe fascia ins't deep enough for a full size battery to fit, so with my LS4/F40 car, I ran a smaller Dyna-Batt battery bolted to the underside of the stock head light bucket.
Note that weight jacking affects cross weight (diagonal weight distribution) but not left to right or front to rear distribution. Adjusting the cross weight to 50% via weight jacking will help of course, but there will still be a difference in performance on left vs right turns if the lateral weight distribution is uneven, and thr only way to redistribute the weight is to actually move it.
Since Fieros don't have ABS, getting the weight balance perfect from side to side is a big help when it comes to braking too.
My Fiero pulls a little bit to the left when I brake hard. Now I am wondering if my weight distribution has anything to do with it...
Originally posted by jediperk: My Fiero pulls a little bit to the left when I brake hard. Now I am wondering if my weight distribution has anything to do with it...
Could be, but if your car is basically stock, I'd probably look at something in the suspension first. At what speed does it start doing that? If it does it in low speed, then I'd definitely look at suspension/brakes/tires first as the cause.
Just for kick and giggles...i plan to do a push button start upgrade when i get my alarm system. The Viper fob can integrate with the digital guard dog start unit, u just unlock the car, stick the fob in your pocket...press the button and your good to go.Works with command start too. I wanna get the Red nissan nz2 button out of a gtr.
Could be, but if your car is basically stock, I'd probably look at something in the suspension first. At what speed does it start doing that? If it does it in low speed, then I'd definitely look at suspension/brakes/tires first as the cause.
Brake system is new and only exacerbated an existing problem. It happens at speeds above 30 mph really. It's probably the suspension since that is the only thing I have not touched since I bought the car...
Brake system is new and only exacerbated an existing problem. It happens at speeds above 30 mph really. It's probably the suspension since that is the only thing I have not touched since I bought the car...
I've found that when this happened to me it was due to old rubber bushings in the front suspension allowing one wheel to toe a little under braking. I also had this problem under acceleration, and it turned out to be the cradles' fault, It was the last place I looked since I have solid bushings, and it turned out that the sleeve around the bushing had broken and was allowing it to rock back and forth just enough to cause my car to turn left every time I accelerated.
(raced a 2014 porche 911 turbo though....i cant believe how bad a smoked it! i need a Gopro mounted at all times now...noone will ever believe it, it was amazing!)
(raced a 2014 porche 911 turbo though....i cant believe how bad a smoked it! i need a Gopro mounted at all times now...noone will ever believe it, it was amazing!)
This is probably your best bet and I would do like Dobey posted above and use a second battery offset to the right. If you are going all out on your suspension and its adjustable you can "weight jack" it to compensate for the left/right weight distribution anyways so I wouldn't worry too much on trying to get it perfect. You just want to get close so it makes the suspension adjusting less of a PITA...
