Does anyone know how much (about) this might cost? I have an '88 and the AC seems to be just pumping out hot air. I took it in and the diagnosis was that the refridgerant (R12) needed to be replaced... but I believe R12 is not available at reasonable prices anymore and I'm looking to see what it would cost to get it converted (ball park figure) to R134.
Maintaining your R12 system may still be cheaper than conversion. R12 is still available and there are shops licensed to sell it. As it has not been made in 15 years, the price can change from place to place, but if you can find the right shop, it's worth doing. My R12 system works great!
If you are going to do the work yourself you may consider a substitute. I used Envirosafe ES12a. It is much colder than R-12 and works with R12 gauges, is compatible with all AC compressor lubricants and does not require barrier hoses. No changes to the stock AC system are required and it is less prone to leaks.
Due to its construction the original condenser in the Fiero does not have the ability to adequately remove heat when used with R-134a. You may get away with it for Massachusetts but it is not a good choice for Texas.
The only problem(s) I ran into were the low pressure cut out being activated because ES12a will work well with a much smaller charge and that it was so damn cold that it would occasionally ice the evaporator which probably meant I did not need the extreme temp expansion valve.
The low pressure problem can be resolved with a pressure switch mod or change or by using a few ounces more charge which is what I did.
Maintaining your R12 system may still be cheaper than conversion. R12 is still available and there are shops licensed to sell it. As it has not been made in 15 years, the price can change from place to place, but if you can find the right shop, it's worth doing. My R12 system works great!
This is true if the system was working fine recently. Most of the time though, 'just needs recharged' means 'system neglected and needs to be rebuilt', especially given the age of the compressors and their rubber parts at this point (25-30 years)
quote
If you are going to do the work yourself you may consider a substitute. I used Envirosafe ES12a.
Hydocarbon-based alternative refrigerants are not DOT or NHTSA approved. These refrigerants are typically propane or isobutene based, flammable, and potentially explosive. R-12 and R-134A are the only refrigerants currently allowed in vehicles (also the new HFO-1234yf, which is also explosive and hopefully phased out soon).
Hydocarbon-based alternative refrigerants are not DOT or NHTSA approved. These refrigerants are typically propane or isobutene based, flammable, and potentially explosive. R-12 and R-134A are the only refrigerants currently allowed in vehicles (also the new HFO-1234yf, which is also explosive and hopefully phased out soon).
I would second the notion to stay away from refrigerant "substitutes". R-134a works just fine when the system is maintained, especially for a tiny car like the Fiero.
R-134a is also extremely cheap. Amazon has a 12-pack of 12 oz cans for $60 (this price changes regularly - I got this same product for $44 a month ago)
For the conversion, you definitely will need a new accumulator and orifice tube, $30 for both. Your compressor is almost guaranteed to be shot or leaking, so assume a new compressor. The accumulator and orifice tube are both really easy, the compressor has one bolt that is extremely difficult to reach (on the V6) but is otherwise not a difficult job.
Whatever you do, don't try stop leak products - fix it right the first time!
You can also improve your cooling capacity a lot by cleaning your evaporator. Fieros have a habit of collecting leaves and debris on the evaporator. You can clean it out by removing the blower motor in the front compartment and/or the blower resistor assembly. Its amazing how much crap gets in there. Also consider an evaporator cleaning solution, basically a foaming engine cleaner that smells good and washes the built up residue off.
Having a shop do it would be $1000+ assuming you can find one who will do it. Probably cheaper/easier to find a shop the further south you are.
I don't have any experience in auto repair (if you count changing a tire I have some experience but that's about as far as it goes) and this car is an inherited car so needless to say it has sentimental value which far exceeds the actual value of the vehicle.
The $1000+ price tag scared me (because I'd really have a shop do the work if I was going to have this fixed at all). I'm from New England so it's not like I'm in Texas or Florida where I'd NEED the A/C. But it's just a nice to have. I looked at the pricing for the R12 canisters online and they aren't too expensive (if that's the only issue) so if it's a simple as swaping out the canister to replace the refrigerant then I might try that but I'm not really into dropping $1000 to fix the A/C. If I need to do a conversion at $1000 I'll live with no A/C.
These refrigerants are typically propane or isobutene based, flammable, and potentially explosive. R-12 and R-134A are the only refrigerants currently allowed in vehicles (also the new HFO-1234yf, which is also explosive and hopefully phased out soon).
I find it curious that people are scared of 1.5 pounds of propane/isobutane but don't give a moments thought to 100 pounds of gasoline that is right beside their leg
To your credit you did point out that both R-12 and R-134a are explosive (they are flammable too). Most people don't know that or chose to leave that information out of the discussion.
It may only need to be recharged, but the question is always, "where did the refrigerant go?". You may, or may not, need to have a new accumulator. If the system has been exposed to atmosphere then the desiccant will be shot. If it just leaked down without drawing air into the system you might have a relatively inexpensive way out here. First, be safe. Put on some safety goggles and work gloves. Remove either valve cap to the system and use a small screw driver or some other object to depress the pin of the valve. It there is any residual pressure in the system you will hear it escape. Don't push down too hard or uneven ... you don't want to bend the valve tip. If there is any pressure then the system may not be compromised, but you will need to have the source of the leak repaired prior to recharging. Take it to a shop and have them to a system evacuation. They will be recovering any R12 left in the system so they should charge you very little as they are keeping your R12. Once the system has been evacuated they can keep a vacuum on it and see if it holds vacuum. If the vacuum holds then the charge should also hold. If the vacuum doesn't hold the leak will need to be repaired. That could be just an "O" ring seal or more expensive such as the compressor, condenser or evaporator. They will need to give you an estimate and you can go from there. If the vacuum holds they will just need to add Freon. The great unknown is if there are other parts of the system that will leak later. If something does leak you will lose all the Freon that was just added ... that isn't cheap. As you just acquired this car I might recommend that you go through the suspension, brakes, cooling system, etc. and put the money towards those items first. Here in Texas the AC is important, but you really shouldn't drive the car in any state with brake, suspension or cooling system issues. Best of luck with the new car.
If a system if being converted from R12 to 134a isn't it necessary to also change the oil? I heard that the oil used in an R12 system is not compatible with the oil used in a 134a system. Is that correct?
I don't have any experience in auto repair (if you count changing a tire I have some experience but that's about as far as it goes) and this car is an inherited car so needless to say it has sentimental value which far exceeds the actual value of the vehicle.
The $1000+ price tag scared me (because I'd really have a shop do the work if I was going to have this fixed at all). I'm from New England so it's not like I'm in Texas or Florida where I'd NEED the A/C. But it's just a nice to have. I looked at the pricing for the R12 canisters online and they aren't too expensive (if that's the only issue) so if it's a simple as swaping out the canister to replace the refrigerant then I might try that but I'm not really into dropping $1000 to fix the A/C. If I need to do a conversion at $1000 I'll live with no A/C.
R-12 isn't difficult to find. You need to be EPA Section 609 certified to purchase it, which is really easy to do. EPA Test and ASE both have great online setups to take the test with.
Then you'll need 2.5lbs R-12, some 525 viscosity mineral oil, and a new accumulator. If you can change a tire, you can change an accumulator. Same with the orifice tube.
Some Autozones lend out vacuum pumps, you'll need this to evacuate the system and check for leaks. You'll also need an R-12 gauge set to check pressures and add the refrigerant back in. These are cheap on ebay.
The high-side schrader valve should also be replaced, GM part # 10027604, AC Delco part # 15-5375. You also need a special larger valve core tool to remove the old one, like Four Seasons # 59302
Doing it yourself without replacing the compressor, you're probably looking at $250 or so for refrigerant, parts, and tools.
If a system if being converted from R12 to 134a isn't it necessary to also change the oil? I heard that the oil used in an R12 system is not compatible with the oil used in a 134a system. Is that correct?
Yes, the type depends on the compressor you use. New compressors will come with instructions on the type and viscosity of oil to be used with it. Typically PAG46, but always check.
It may only need to be recharged, but the question is always, "where did the refrigerant go?". You may, or may not, need to have a new accumulator. If the system has been exposed to atmosphere then the desiccant will be shot. If it just leaked down without drawing air into the system you might have a relatively inexpensive way out here. First, be safe. Put on some safety goggles and work gloves. Remove either valve cap to the system and use a small screw driver or some other object to depress the pin of the valve. It there is any residual pressure in the system you will hear it escape. Don't push down too hard or uneven ... you don't want to bend the valve tip. If there is any pressure then the system may not be compromised, but you will need to have the source of the leak repaired prior to recharging. Take it to a shop and have them to a system evacuation. They will be recovering any R12 left in the system so they should charge you very little as they are keeping your R12. Once the system has been evacuated they can keep a vacuum on it and see if it holds vacuum. If the vacuum holds then the charge should also hold. If the vacuum doesn't hold the leak will need to be repaired. That could be just an "O" ring seal or more expensive such as the compressor, condenser or evaporator. They will need to give you an estimate and you can go from there. If the vacuum holds they will just need to add Freon. The great unknown is if there are other parts of the system that will leak later. If something does leak you will lose all the Freon that was just added ... that isn't cheap. As you just acquired this car I might recommend that you go through the suspension, brakes, cooling system, etc. and put the money towards those items first. Here in Texas the AC is important, but you really shouldn't drive the car in any state with brake, suspension or cooling system issues. Best of luck with the new car.
If you can get a shop to pinpoint the source of the leak and repair it, then leak test the system, this is a great way to go. My money is on the compressor shaft seal, however.
I find it curious that people are scared of 1.5 pounds of propane/isobutane but don't give a moments thought to 100 pounds of gasoline that is right beside their leg
The fuel tank was designed to carry flammable liquid, and was placed in the vehicle to be protected in a crash. It's also not pressurized. The air conditioning system was NOT designed to carry something so flammable. You don't want a jet of pressurized propane leaking directly onto a hot exhaust manifold.
quote
To your credit you did point out that both R-12 and R-134a are explosive (they are flammable too). Most people don't know that or chose to leave that information out of the discussion.
R-134a is flammable but nowhere near as flammable / explosive as propane. The MSDS shows an autoignition temperature of > 750 Celsius.
Only $60 and it looks like it includes the canister of R134a. Assuming the refrigerant is all that's needed this seems (key word there) like a relatively quick fix.....
Only $60 and it looks like it includes the canister of R134a. Assuming the refrigerant is all that's needed this seems (key word there) like a relatively quick fix.....
That's actually some type of oil, not refrigerant. Looks like the brand sold at NAPA. What kind and viscosity? Who knows.
Believe me, at the very least, change the accumulator and orifice tube. They are about $25 TOTAL. The accumulator has a drying agent in it that removes moisture from the refrigerant, which can either form ice or turns into a acidic mix when combined with refrigerant and oil.
If you don't change the accumulator, which has been exposed to the environment for years now, even if the system works it won't be for long.
I had mine converted last year when the compressor died. The shop I used charged me $477 and I supplied the compressor (a re-man). In the town I work, there is a shop that actually rebuilds compressors (Jensen Auto), so I got it a little cheaper buying it direct ($90). My overall grand total was $567.
I've done R-134a conversions on several Fieros and have always achieved excellent results but my 3800SC swap tops them all. It gets so cold in there that (on max) it will freeze you out on the warmest day. It might be that the 3800 compressor is more efficient but other vehicles with the Harrison HR6 have had good results as well. . The key is to have a strong working compressor, a clean debris free condenser, a new accumulator, a new orifice tube and the PROPER amount of refrigerant and Ester Oil. As for Envirosafe. It is far from safe. Its mostly Butane. A small leak in a hose and a tiny spark can cause a fire that will destroy the car. If you decide to charge with that stuff be advised that in case of an accident, your insurance policy is completely null and VOID. Not only will your claim not be paid,; because you broke the law, you will be held personally liable for any damage that results. Is it worth using????
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
I've got a 3800SC in my car. A PO did the line mods to the compressor that came with the 3800 and also installed 134a fittings on the accumulator and high side port. He never had the system recharged. Today I put in a 12 oz can of 134a with dye. I went over the entire system with a black light and also a leak detector. Couldn't find any leaks. I've left the gauges connected and the pressure doesn't seem to be dropping. The only place that could potentially be leaking are the charge ports. I am considering evacuating the system and recharging, but am concerned with the oil. The compressor certainly had 134 charge oil, but I'm sure that the other components still contain oil from the R12. How do I recharge with 134 and ensure that the system is operating with the correct oil and that different oils don't mix that are incompatible?
I've got a 3800SC in my car. A PO did the line mods to the compressor that came with the 3800 and also installed 134a fittings on the accumulator and high side port. He never had the system recharged. Today I put in a 12 oz can of 134a with dye. I went over the entire system with a black light and also a leak detector. Couldn't find any leaks. I've left the gauges connected and the pressure doesn't seem to be dropping. The only place that could potentially be leaking are the charge ports. I am considering evacuating the system and recharging, but am concerned with the oil. The compressor certainly had 134 charge oil, but I'm sure that the other components still contain oil from the R12. How do I recharge with 134 and ensure that the system is operating with the correct oil and that different oils don't mix that are incompatible?
Isn't it strange that after a bombing, everyone blames the bomber, his upbringing, his environment, his culture, his mental state but … after a shooting, the problem is the gun?
Thanks for the reply. Already printed it off (and the one from The Ogre). I have located parts, but may wait due to the expense of the AC manifold set, vacuum pump, black light and 134 can valve. That and I will be out of town for much of the next two weeks.
Another good one. Sounds like you really had to go through your entire system. At least mine wasn't subject to a compressor failure that threw trash into all the lines and components. Your last post was just a few days ago and it didn't appear that you had it up and running yet. Let us know how it all works out. Also, looks like you have some type of mat liner in your front compartment area. Did this come on some models or is it something that you picked up later? Looks good.
Your last post was just a few days ago and it didn't appear that you had it up and running yet. Let us know how it all works out. Also, looks like you have some type of mat liner in your front compartment area. Did this come on some models or is it something that you picked up later? Looks good.
I wanted to have my system charged this past Friday but the shop closed early for some reason. Prolly because of the Fun Fest traffic that had the downtown area conjested. They'll be open again tomorrow (Monday) so I'll go back in the morning. I checked my system with the gauges again before I returned them to Auto Zone. There was still a strong vacuum present. As long as the compressor is OK, I think it will be fine.
As to the mat liner in the front compartment, I made it. Thanks for the compliment!
Just got back from the AC shop. Their machine recommended 2.25 lbs of R-134a which is 90% of the R-12 capacity. Mine is working well and the old compressor is running smoothly and quietly.
Are you saying you got it done? If so, care to share who and how much? Or is the question is that info correct? The answer to that is yes. The original capacity is 2.5 and I've heard that many times, use a little less 134.
