IF engineers were so good at everything why has GM had like 70 million cars recalled in the last year...thats only just past half over. The only thing they ARE good at is designing stuff to fail so theyre employer can sell them another down the road. Engineers were good on the Titanic too (I think they used the words engineering marvel)....how that work out. Any idiot would know that it isnt a watertite compartment when its wide open at the top 10'. See for yourself if you can sink a can with no lid by pushing it under water. A first grader can figure that out.
Just to be clear I didn't say they were always right, just that They Themselves Know they are, even when they are wrong !
I was going to mention the GM ignition engineering fiasco but thought better of it because they will simply blame someone else in the chain of GM. They always have an excuse when they screw something up, seen it dozens of times myself in person in real life on jobs and at GM in person.
Steve
[This message has been edited by 84fiero123 (edited 07-25-2014).]
IF engineers were so good at everything why has GM had like 70 million cars recalled in the last year...thats only just past half over. The only thing they ARE good at is designing stuff to fail so theyre employer can sell them another down the road. Engineers were good on the Titanic too (I think they used the words engineering marvel)....how that work out. Any idiot would know that it isnt a watertite compartment when its wide open at the top 10'. See for yourself if you can sink a can with no lid by pushing it under water. A first grader can figure that out.
Originally posted by rogergarrison: I stated ONLY my opinion is I dont really like them...for looks. Im not ordering anyone to do anything.
No. You said that and then went on a diatribe claiming they have absolutely no function at all, as if it were some sort of undeniable fact.
If you'd only stated your opinion is that you don't personally like them, then you wouldn't have gotten the replies correcting the invalid claims you made.
Go read all my posts on this thread again please. I never said the spoiler was needed. I said your claims that it performs NO FUNCTION at all, are wrong, and stated what functions it actually does perform. Instead of accepting those FACTS, you keep going on and on and on about how spoilers have NO FUNCTION on street cars and are purely for looks. Stop doing that.
Originally posted by 84fiero123: just to refresh your memory about what the original question was in this thread.
Because you can't keep reposting that question enough. Go read the first reply. It answers the question. How about you go moan to everyone who replied after that, telling them how wrong they are for replying, because the answer was posted already.
Someone else asked another question which lead to the current line of discussion. If you don't like that, then don't read the thread. Your nonsense is much worse than all those other replies.
IF engineers were so good at everything why has GM had like 70 million cars recalled in the last year...thats only just past half over. The only thing they ARE good at is designing stuff to fail so theyre employer can sell them another down the road. Engineers were good on the Titanic too (I think they used the words engineering marvel)....how that work out. Any idiot would know that it isnt a watertite compartment when its wide open at the top 10'. See for yourself if you can sink a can with no lid by pushing it under water. A first grader can figure that out.
Seriously? An engineer's designs based on many factors. Do you think they can build whatever they want, regardless of cost, intended use, etc? Eh... As for the titanic, the compartments were not watertight. They had watertight doors, and the compartments were divided, to prevent large scale flooding if one part of the ship was damaged. No one thought that such an accident (as what happened) would occur (where multiple compartments were flooding at the same time). Maybe you are willing to try flying an airplane that 1st graders designed?
Seriously? An engineer's designs based on many factors. Do you think they can build whatever they want, regardless of cost, intended use, etc? Eh... As for the titanic, the compartments were not watertight. They had watertight doors, and the compartments were divided, to prevent large scale flooding if one part of the ship was damaged. No one thought that such an accident (as what happened) would occur (where multiple compartments were flooding at the same time). Maybe you are willing to try flying an airplane that 1st graders designed?
NO, Would I fly a plane an engineer designed from scratch and had built. NO....definately NOT. I wouldnt fly it till it was thoughly tested by test pilots with first hand, hands on, trials. Not because it designed by a world class aeronautical engineer and all his computer programs say it would work as designed. There are many dead test pilots and crashed test planes because they DIDNT do as expected.
The Titanic was touted as unsinkable because of water tight compartments....a blatant lie. Engineers told them it couldnt sink. Guess they were wrong.
BTW, it is more of a preference when it comes to the spoiler. On the notchback, the spoiler and aero panels combined to reduce the Coefficient of Drag (CD).
One thing about the fiero is that this little car is timeless, the fiero body design was ahead of its time back in the 80's with a very sharp look. Now the only two elements(in my opinion) that are very 80's are the dash and the massive spoiler. Anyways like many have already said it's a matter of personal choice, if you like that retro look from the 80's go for it.
Originally posted by rogergarrison: Added on wings do NOTHING FUNCTIONALLY on a street car. Kid yourself all you want. IF it does do anything at all, the effect is so miniscule, its not even worth talking about. The Ferrari (328/308) roof 'wing' sole reasons for being there is to prevent the passengers getting sunburned necks and help keep the rear window cleaner...period.
...not to argue, but isn't "prevent the passengers getting sunburned necks and help keep the rear window cleaner" technically providing a function?
...not to argue, but isn't "prevent the passengers getting sunburned necks and help keep the rear window cleaner" technically providing a function?
It only does it by magic, not by increasing downforce (which for some reason, a lot of people think is the primary purpose of having a wing/spoiler at all, despite the fact that it's the exact opposite reason that jets have them).
Im confused by this whole post. To answer the OP question which seemed to have caused this huge conflict. Yes, the spoiler does make a difference whether it is on or off. The differences are at a minimum but over all the aerodynamics of the car will be changed slightly when taking the wing off.
Why are we all splitting hair's on the very small, irrelevant idea's behind engineering? Im still 'new' to the forum but from what I understand, we all drive and enjoy the same car right? We are all part of the same community trying to help one another out in an civilized manner, isn't that correct? I can understand that we all have opinions and belief's but at the end of the day we shouldn't be making these huge and outrageous rants about something so simple.
It only does it by magic, not by increasing downforce (which for some reason, a lot of people think is the primary purpose of having a wing/spoiler at all, despite the fact that it's the exact opposite reason that jets have them).
Originally posted by zzzhuh: Seriously mate, what is up with the Honda badge?
Because it's the only one I ever got to work when I set the avatar. And it brings out the true colors of some people.
Honda has made some pretty nice stuff over the years; despite the large number of idiots that own their cars. Plenty of idiots own all kinds of different cars though.
Originally posted by zzzhuh: Im confused by this whole post. To answer the OP question which seemed to have caused this huge conflict. Yes, the spoiler does make a difference whether it is on or off. The differences are at a minimum but over all the aerodynamics of the car will be changed slightly when taking the wing off.
...not to argue, but isn't "prevent the passengers getting sunburned necks and help keep the rear window cleaner" technically providing a function?
Yes, true...THAT IS its function. Like most other wings its purpose is not in any way to improve any kind of performance. Ive pointed out that there are functions for them, just not anything that affects any performance anyone can measure.
"Honda has made some pretty nice stuff over the years".....NSX being the only thing...and thats technically NOT a Honda. Other than that they are all rust traps. Experience? I cant even count the number, or even guess the number of rusted out fenders, door and quarter panels Ive filled with Duraglass on them. Yes, I am a certified expert on Honda rust.
Just a free tip if you own one. If its got the rubber edge strip on the wheel well lip, remove it and throw it away. Its one of the main causes of the rustout on the lips since it retains dirt and moisture causing it to rust. They put the rubber on them to cover the joint in the 2 pieces of metal welded together.
[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 07-25-2014).]
Every time I have to work on the cars made in the last 20 years I'm cussing the designers/engineers ! Seems like each of them designs 1 part, and never talks to the guy making the part next to it, or even considers who "might have to work on it in the future". yea, they are Never Wrong. remember the designers who "designed the HUGO ?! or the infamous "OPTI" distributor !
Originally posted by rogergarrison:NSX being the only thing...and thats technically NOT a Honda.
You do know that the Acura brand only exists in America, and that the NSX is sold everywhere else in the world - including its home country of Japan - as the Honda NSX, right?
The wise man checks himself before he wrecks himself.
Took the spoiler off my 88GT just to see what it looked like and I never put it back on. IMO, the car looks dated with the spoiler and more modern without it.
I took the spoiler/wing off my sons car just because he is an inexperienced driver, and he needed a more wide open view. After we did it, we both actually like it a lot better. Didn't think I would, but I did.
Originally posted by rogergarrison: "Honda has made some pretty nice stuff over the years".....NSX being the only thing...and thats technically NOT a Honda. Other than that they are all rust traps. Experience? I cant even count the number, or even guess the number of rusted out fenders, door and quarter panels Ive filled with Duraglass on them. Yes, I am a certifiedself-proclaimed expert on Honda rust.
There, I fixed it for you.
But, no, the NSX isn't the only thing nice to come out of Honda. And this thread is about spoilers, not Honda, or your limited world view, despite how often you keep going down that road.
I was a bit curious on how one becomes "certified" on Honda rust. Must be one of those classes that were only offered before anyone younger than Roger could remember. Cause you know, when your Roger's age, personal opinion becomes law. I wonder if you get a framed certificate of your "certification"...are the signatures in Japanese??
I guess I'm being an arse tonight but I'm sick of people preaching about people not accepting others' arguments when they can't accept an opposing argument themselves. Just because you have some years on other members doesn't mean the younger crowd has nothing to offer. I have watched Roger argue Bloozeberry's scientific proof in other threads and all Roger has to offer is opinion. Really getting sick of that, if somebody contributes hard facts that help out fellow Fiero owners, that person should be appreciated, not ridiculed. Shamed on you Roger and others like you. I will be public in saying that this thread finally earned you a neg from me. And to think, I used to respect you
What I said is it 'technically' isnt a Honda...its an Acura. They sell Buicks in Asia, dont make them Dawoo or Kia Park Avenues.
I could give a flying frack about negatives. Throw all you want. I still have my opinions and first hand knowlege from 50 years.
You become a certified expert after repeating a job 4,000 times. You improve the methods and decrease the time each time. I can tell you every single point on a Honda body that will rust and what you have to do to fix it. I know more about Honda sheet metal than the engineers that designed them.
Like I said, still havent seen a post about what a wing does thats anything at all meaningful. There isnt any. The outside mirrors make more drag than the wing can correct. What idiot engineers design flush door handles and window trim to cut drag, yet leave 2 sq feet of drag hanging in the wind.
Until someone can prove their wing gives them 5 mpg increase in mileage, or can take a corner 15 mph faster with it...theres still no measurable benefit. You are not going to convince me otherwise ever. In the meantime, being retired I can argue 20 hours a day if I feel like it. I can still watch tv while online.
You can have the last word if you want if it makes you feel important.
Originally posted by rogergarrison: What I said is it 'technically' isnt a Honda...its an Acura. They sell Buicks in Asia, dont make them Dawoo or Kia Park Avenues.
Still makes them a GM though. Buicks are big in China, not so much in Korea; where Daewoo and Kia come from. The Acura branded NSX is one hell of a lot more of a Honda than the 04-06 GTO is a Holden. Literally the only change on the NSX in the US, is taking the Honda badges off and putting Acura badges on.
quote
Originally posted by rogergarrison: Like I said, still havent seen a post about what a wing does thats anything at all meaningful. There isnt any. The outside mirrors make more drag than the wing can correct. What idiot engineers design flush door handles and window trim to cut drag, yet leave 2 sq feet of drag hanging in the wind.
Your failure to grasp and understand the facts that have been repeated several times, which you apparently have continually failed to read and comprehend, does not make them no longer be facts. I guess you've also never read the FHTSA requirements to have the side view mirrors. But I'm glad you're calling people you have never met before, and will likely never meet, idiots, because you're assuming they made the mirrors. The Fiero is still primarily a parts bin car. The mirrors are the same ones used on the F-body and Corvette of the same era, and someone pulled them off, got mounting arms made to better fit the Fiero, and called it a day. Of all the mirrors that GM had lying around at the time, the ones are the Fiero are the most aerodynamic ones they could have gone with. It's not like they had 7" screens in all the cars with high def and infrared back-up cameras at the time. Heck, the Fiero mirrors are roughly the same shape as the mirrors on the Cruze Eco and Volt, which had a heck of a lot more time in the wind tunnel than the Fiero ever did. The effect of the Fiero's mirrors on drag is pretty minimal, and the spoiler being able to overcome that drag or not is irrelevant. The spoiler design isn't about overcoming the drag. It had to be added as an option for sell, but it also gave GM an opportunity to reduce the CD and control air flowing back up the rear bumper cover.
quote
Originally posted by rogergarrison: Until someone can prove their wing gives them 5 mpg increase in mileage, or can take a corner 15 mph faster with it...theres still no measurable benefit. You are not going to convince me otherwise ever.
Oh, so 5 MPG is measurable benefit, but measuring an 0.01 decrease in CD after many hours in a wind tunnel isn't? I guess helping keep the rear window cleaner isn't a measurable benefit either. Fine for a Ferrari, but if the spoiler on the Fiero does it, it's not true.
Nobody cares about convincing you. But just because you can grasp the concept that F1 cars have big wings to increase downforce, or have a license to fly a Cesna, doesn't make you an expert in the field of aerodynamics. GM does have experts, and they tested and documented the effects of the Fiero spoiler on the car, in wind tunnel. Whether you choose to take advantage of those benefits or not, is a personal choice. Don't confuse the two. Your personal choices do not constitute the laws of physics.
[This message has been edited by dobey (edited 07-26-2014).]
Oh, so 5 MPG is measurable benefit, but measuring an 0.01 decrease in CD after many hours in a wind tunnel isn't? I guess helping keep the rear window cleaner isn't a measurable benefit either. Fine for a Ferrari, but if the spoiler on the Fiero does it, it's not true.
Nobody cares about convincing you. But just because you can grasp the concept that F1 cars have big wings to increase downforce, or have a license to fly a Cesna, doesn't make you an expert in the field of aerodynamics. GM does have experts, and they tested and documented the effects of the Fiero spoiler on the car, in wind tunnel. Whether you choose to take advantage of those benefits or not, is a personal choice. Don't confuse the two. Your personal choices do not constitute the laws of physics.
And once again proving that an engineer will never admit he is wrong about anything !
One more time, the original question was,
quote
Originally posted by fun2drive:
Is a rear spoiler on a gt fastback really needed?
There I even highlighted the part that you seem to be forgetting about the original question,
really needed?
Is it, really needed?
NO it's not really needed? it makes so little a difference in the areas that it does make a difference that no it is not, really needed?
Originally posted by 84fiero123: There I even highlighted the part that you seem to be forgetting about the original question,
You seem to be forgetting it, since you keep repeating it. Maybe you should reply to roger and tell him that's the original question, since I guess he keeps forgetting it too.
But let me help refresh your memory again, since you're so old, and it's obviously failing, and apparently your reading comprehension is so poor:
quote
Originally posted by thesameguy:
You guys sure spoilers - in general - are just for looks? I'm pretty sure I've read in numerous places that spoilers can improve fuel economy by smoothing airflow coming off cars, and in several cases (notably the Audi TT) the function of the spoiler comes into play WAY below 180mph. C&D found the TT to generate 150+ lbs of LIFT at only 125mph with no spoiler, compared to 50 lbs with. I've no idea about the aerodynamics of any Fiero, but I think "looks only" might be an erroneous, snap judgment.
So if you want to ***** about things being off topic.
1) Look in the mirror. You are far from staying on topic. You're not even talking about spoilers. You're just trying to defend roger for some reason. You two should just move to a state where it's ok for you to get married, already.
2) Go whine to thesameguy, since his post is what resulted in all the "discussion" about whether or not the spoiler is functional (Let me highlight that for you too, since you can't seem to grasp the concept.)
3) ***** to roger, because he's the one that keeps going on the long nonsensical self-righteous diatribes that he is always right; despite the facts and his own self-contradictory blathering.
Like I said, still havent seen a post about what a wing does thats anything at all meaningful. There isnt any. The outside mirrors make more drag than the wing can correct. What idiot engineers design flush door handles and window trim to cut drag, yet leave 2 sq feet of drag hanging in the wind.
You are ignoring the decrease in CD, as I mentioned in this post. Mirrors are a safety item and before you tell us how great cameras are, we already had that discussion and you will need to change the fed. rules, along with other items to be accepted. Engineers also study aerodynamics and sometimes redirecting flow will improve drag numbers. That change can be a spoiler. But, I know, you are set in you ways, as you have said....
So if you want to ***** about things being off topic.
1) Look in the mirror. You are far from staying on topic. You're not even talking about spoilers. You're just trying to defend roger for some reason. You two should just move to a state where it's ok for you to get married, already.
2) Go whine to thesameguy, since his post is what resulted in all the "discussion" about whether or not the spoiler is functional (Let me highlight that for you too, since you can't seem to grasp the concept.)
3) ***** to roger, because he's the one that keeps going on the long nonsensical self-righteous diatribes that he is always right; despite the facts and his own self-contradictory blathering.
But is it really NEEDED?
Is it actually necessary? To make it so you understand, kid !
That was the OP original question now wasn't it? So IS IT? NO
Steve
[This message has been edited by 84fiero123 (edited 07-26-2014).]
Is it actually necessary? To make it so you understand, kid !
That was the OP original question now wasn't it? So IS IT? NO
Steve
Please go re-read every single post I have made in this thread, and tell me where I said it was needed. I never said it was needed. I merely articulated the objective benefits the spoiler brings. If you want those benefits, you either need a spoiler (whichever one you like best and provides the same benefits is fine to use, it doesn't need to be the stock one), or you need to make other modifications to achieve the same benefits. If you do not want those benefits, then you do not need the spoiler. You also do not NEED a Fiero.
Please go re-read every single post I have made in this thread, and tell me where I said it was needed. I never said it was needed. I merely articulated the objective benefits the spoiler brings. If you want those benefits, you either need a spoiler (whichever one you like best and provides the same benefits is fine to use, it doesn't need to be the stock one), or you need to make other modifications to achieve the same benefits. If you do not want those benefits, then you do not need the spoiler. You also do not NEED a Fiero.
That was the original posters question yet you never really answered it just ran off about what they do, everyone else answered the question but you. You just rambled on about what it does.
Originally posted by 84fiero123: That was the original posters question yet you never really answered it just ran off about what they do, everyone else answered the question but you. You just rambled on about what it does.
Steve
I answered it several times. You just apparently cannot read.
I also didn't reply to the thread until the discussion took the turn to "what do they actually do?"
I'm so glad you're here to dictate what the topic of this thread should be, and you're keeping it on topic. You know, instead of berating one person about their reply, and ignoring all the other people participating in the thread.
Here's my 2c after many years of road racing and building cars.
on street cars (at legal speed limits) spoilers & wings might / can affect CD, GM, Stability, etc in a very minuet way. Sometimes the opposite of what you were hoping for. So I use them or not based on what I think looks best on the vehicle.
On the track, I am looking for every benefit I can get as long as its safe. So wings / spoilers, yes (as rules permit), who cares what it looks like as long as it gives you the gain you are looking for.
Conclusion..... Build it for what you are using it for!!!!!!!!! No comfortable driving street car is going to be competitive on a race track. And no track car is going to be a suitable street car
