I agree, it's definitely a matter of an opinion. The functionality of a spoiler in daily driving conditions is just for looks. I think the notchback needs it more than the fastback, because the fastback can pull off the clean look better or a nice rack or something. And when I say needs, I mean in my opinion it looks way better than without it, so I would always have it on a notchback, but I would consider taking it off a fastback every now and again.
Took the spoiler off my 88GT just to see what it looked like and I never put it back on. IMO, the car looks dated with the spoiler and more modern without it.
[This message has been edited by seajai (edited 07-21-2014).]
I generally dont like any cars with the stuck on wings, even back to the muscle car days when they tacked them on Mustangs, Cudas and Darts. It is completely a matter of taste. And previous poster is correct, they do absolutely nothing to help performance or handling....unless your Fiero goes 180 mph...simply a styling gimick.
My 88GT was biult without the spoiler but years ago someone added a J.C. Whitney lookalike spoiler. It never sealed correctly and was in poor condition. One day I found a perfect GT decklid in the junkyard, with no spoiler holes. Right color even! I made the switch and I like it a lot.
My own thoughts are that fastbacks look more 'finished' with a spoiler, but they also can look good in a sort of 'European' way without one. (Can't really explain it; it's more of an impression or feeling.)
IMHO, notchbacks look a bit unfinished or drab without a spoiler of some type. My first Fiero (an '88 Coupe) never had a spoiler until I sold it to my Dad and then we morphed it into an Indy clone because he loved the look of an Indy replica we saw at a car show. ("Like a Fiero wearing a tuxedo" he used to say.) My second Fiero is a Formula, so it had the spoiler from the start.
------------------ Patrick W. Heinske -- LZeitgeist@aol.com
1988 Fiero Formula - Automoda convertible repainted PPG Ferrari 'Giallo Modena' yellow 1988 Fiero 4-cyl Coupe - Dad's car, the Indy 'clone' (soon to be back on the road after a 6 year rest)
You guys sure spoilers - in general - are just for looks? I'm pretty sure I've read in numerous places that spoilers can improve fuel economy by smoothing airflow coming off cars, and in several cases (notably the Audi TT) the function of the spoiler comes into play WAY below 180mph. C&D found the TT to generate 150+ lbs of LIFT at only 125mph with no spoiler, compared to 50 lbs with. I've no idea about the aerodynamics of any Fiero, but I think "looks only" might be an erroneous, snap judgment.
After removing the spoiler, are there plugs available covering the mounting holes, so any time later the spoiler can be re-attached?
I know they sell nylon snap plugs of various sizes at hardware stores (like Ace), and at Lowes and Home Depot (but Ace has a better selection). You may be able to find a size that works.
You guys sure spoilers - in general - are just for looks? I'm pretty sure I've read in numerous places that spoilers can improve fuel economy by smoothing airflow coming off cars, and in several cases (notably the Audi TT) the function of the spoiler comes into play WAY below 180mph. C&D found the TT to generate 150+ lbs of LIFT at only 125mph with no spoiler, compared to 50 lbs with. I've no idea about the aerodynamics of any Fiero, but I think "looks only" might be an erroneous, snap judgment.
I'm sure spoilers on OTHER cars have varied effects. Since we're speaking specifically about Fieros, however - it's been debated dozens of times and tested here quite a few times in quite a few ways. Personally not going to get into a functional-vs.-nonfunctional discussion/debate - reading the above link (or doing a search for 'spolier effective' here) should give you more than you probably want to know.
------------------ Patrick W. Heinske -- LZeitgeist@aol.com
1988 Fiero Formula - Automoda convertible repainted PPG Ferrari 'Giallo Modena' yellow 1988 Fiero 4-cyl Coupe - Dad's car, the Indy 'clone' (soon to be back on the road after a 6 year rest)
[This message has been edited by LZeitgeist (edited 07-22-2014).]
I'm sure spoilers on OTHER cars have varied effects. Since we're speaking specifically about Fieros, however - it's been debated dozens of times and tested here quite a few times in quite a few ways. Personally not going to get into a functional-vs.-nonfunctional discussion/debate - reading the above link (or doing a search for 'spolier effective' here) should give you more than you probably want to know.
There's nothing to debate. GM showed a measured decrease in CD by adding the spoiler, in a wind tunnel. That equates to a small increase in fuel economy, but you're only likely to see a local economical result in your wallet, if the vast majority of miles you put on your car, are on the highway. Combined with other mods, it could add up to a pretty good increase in economy; but most people aren't doing the mods that would result in that.
Obviously though, if you don't want a spoiler then get rid of it, and if you do want one, then keep it. Asking other people what they think is about as useful as most of the arguments that result from it. If you do want to add a spoiler though, and have a wingless car, please swap the decklid for one that came with a wing, so you don't have to drill the wingless one, and sell/trade the wingless to someone who doesn't want a wing, Too many wingless decklids have been damaged by people adding wings already, so they're getting much harder to find.
Ya, its been debated many times. Ill say GM probably might be correct in that it does inprove economy VERY slightly at high speeds. But is 1/10 of a mile per gallon worth any effort. Flush door handles increase economy too. No wing on any street car serves no functional purpose. Even the biggest wing ever...on Plymouth SuperBird and Dodge Daytona barely had any effect. The magical speed at when a spoiler DOES do something seems to be around 160-180 mph. Europeans learned it a long time ago...like you never see a wing on a Ferrari 308,328, 355, 456, 550, etc that a wing on a street car is useless. The F40 had a big wing,BUT is was designed as a competetive RACE CAR, not a street car. Some put them on street cars also just for the look like Lamborghini. Even the Countach looks better and performs the same with no wing...but most have them because of the extreme/radical look it gives. I cant keep a straight face when a Firebird guy tells me how much better his car handles on a freeway (70mph) because of the wing.
Originally posted by rogergarrison: like you never see a wing on a Ferrari 308,328, 355, 456, 550, etc that a wing on a street car is useless.
Eh? Maybe not a wing exactly, but Ferraris do have spoilers at the rear of the deck. The 308/328 had a wing/spoiler at the roof line between the C pillar sail panels.
The wing spoiler on the Fiero serves the same aerodynamic purpose as the body-integrated lip spoilers on more modern sports cars; whether you personally like its looks or not.
Originally posted by rogergarrison:But is 1/10 of a mile per gallon worth any effort ... The magical speed at when a spoiler DOES do something seems to be around 160-180 mph.
I'm sorry, but that is somewhere between an overbroad generalization and patently untrue. *Some* cars may not benefit from the addition of a spoiler or wing, but other cars do - it completely depends on the shape of the car and other design elements. My example of the TT above is clear, recent documented proof that a spoiler has an impact way below 160mph... so much so that VAG issued a recall to install them! Fiat added a pretty massive spoiler to the electric 500 which is only capable of about 90mph. One is an example is to reduce lift and improve safety, the other to reduce drag and add economy. These are both street cars getting real benefit from these treatments. Go watch the windtunnel video on youtube of the Ford Sierra Cosworth with and without crazy biwing spoiler.
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Europeans learned it a long time ago...like you never see a wing on a Ferrari 308,328, 355, 456, 550, etc that a wing on a street car is useless.
Not sure what you think they learned or when, but BMW added a spoiler to the E28 and E34 5-series to reduce drag and improve top speed. The E30 M3 has a good sized wing to reduce drag. Mercedes/AMG added ducktails to several '80s and '90s models (notably the Porsche-bodied 500E) to reduce drag. I think you are getting confused between purpose-built sports cars like Ferrari builds that incorporate the function of wings and spoilers in subtler design cues and pedestrian vehicles that end up with add-ons to help make up for a compromised, passenger-friendly shape. The difference between a 1988 M5 and a 2014 M5 is that BMW now has the wherewithal to make custom sheetmetal for their performance models. But the 2014 M5 *still* has a spoiler. Porsche added spoilers in the '70s and still has them today. The active ones deploy at speeds barely above the speed limit.
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Even the Countach looks better and performs the same with no wing...
Because the Countach was designed by artists, not wind tunnels. The Countach has terrible aerodynamics - like, the PT Cruiser has better aero.
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Flush door handles increase economy too.
Yes, they do, which is why so many modern cars have them. Because every little improvement - a spoiler, flush door handles, a front valance or splitter, etc. - can help.
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Plymouth SuperBird and Dodge Daytona barely had any effect.
Because that was 1960, when we barely understood why the streamliner cars of a few decades prior weren't streamlined at all. We learned a LOT in the '70s about the effect of aero on cars, up to and including why the Countach sucked at it. GM was very early to wind tunnel testing, and I personally find it hard to believe that a) the Fiero was ignored and b) GM added anything to the Fiero that cost more and didn't serve some purpose.
It's *fine* if you don't like and don't want a spoiler, but don't please defend your personal choice with pseudo-science.
As far as if it helps with anything I think its nothing any of us are ever going to see.
As far as the holes left after removing it, go to the dealer, any GM dealer. they ship station wagons without the roof racks on and the holes are plugged with expanding rubber plugs to keep water out of the holes during shipment. then the dealer takes the plugs out and puts on the roof racks and throws the plugs away or in a bin. Ask to buy a few and use those.
Steve
------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't
Just thought I'd add - the first Countach, the one with the least add-ons, has a drag coefficient of .42. PT Cruiser is .39.
some of that drag probably went towards creating downforce which is beneficial at higher speeds while cornering. IIRC, F1 cars have a very high cod.(aprox 1.0)
Added on wings do NOTHING FUNCTIONALLY on a street car. Kid yourself all you want. IF it does do anything at all, the effect is so miniscule, its not even worth talking about. The Ferrari (328/308) roof 'wing' sole reasons for being there is to prevent the passengers getting sunburned necks and help keep the rear window cleaner...period. They found a flat vertical rear glass attracts dirt and water like a magnet, just like a van or station wagon. If you think any car like your example TT, is going to go zooming out of control at 65 mph without one, your living in never-never land. IF the 'factory' recalled a car to fit on a wing, its to milk the owner for more free money. The geniuses of the time told everyone 1959 Chevys, because of the wing design on the rear would lift up the rear and fly off the roads too. There was even talk in Ohio of banning them from the Ohio Turnpike because the greater speeds were even more dangerous with them. I never saw a 59/60 chevy EVER lose control because its back end came off the ground. My plane barely comes off the ground at freeway speeds with a 40' wing DESIGNED to fly. The only effect I felt of the Superbird wing was when a semi truck passed you and the vertical (rudders) caught the wind. Every car on the road feels that, but not as much as the Superbird which feels it most at the rear end.
Im laughing at you to with your scientific data just like I do with the Firebird crowd. youd get better handling if you bolt a house door on your trunk...it would give you lots of downforce if you slant it right, but youd look silly. Even more downforce if you also put one on the front.
Regardless, you dont need any downforce for a 35 mph curve driving on the street. All you need is air in the tires. You dont even need them to have any tread.
Added on wings do NOTHING FUNCTIONALLY on a street car. Kid yourself all you want. IF it does do anything at all, the effect is so miniscule, its not even worth talking about. The Ferrari (328/308) roof 'wing' sole reasons for being there is to prevent the passengers getting sunburned necks and help keep the rear window cleaner...period. They found a flat vertical rear glass attracts dirt and water like a magnet, just like a van or station wagon. If you think any car like your example TT, is going to go zooming out of control at 65 mph without one, your living in never-never land. IF the 'factory' recalled a car to fit on a wing, its to milk the owner for more free money. The geniuses of the time told everyone 1959 Chevys, because of the wing design on the rear would lift up the rear and fly off the roads too. There was even talk in Ohio of banning them from the Ohio Turnpike because the greater speeds were even more dangerous with them. I never saw a 59/60 chevy EVER lose control because its back end came off the ground. My plane barely comes off the ground at freeway speeds with a 40' wing DESIGNED to fly. The only effect I felt of the Superbird wing was when a semi truck passed you and the vertical (rudders) caught the wind. Every car on the road feels that, but not as much as the Superbird which feels it most at the rear end.
Im laughing at you to with your scientific data just like I do with the Firebird crowd. youd get better handling if you bolt a house door on your trunk...it would give you lots of downforce if you slant it right, but youd look silly. Even more downforce if you also put one on the front.
You're the only one kidding yourself, gramps.
Your own lack of understanding doesn't make your statements more true. Just because a spoiler is on a car, doesn't mean it's necessarily to improve handling, or create downforce. The spoilders on the Chevy Volt, Chevy Cruze, Corvette, Lamborghini Diablo, Murcielago, Ferrari 328 GTB, 458, California, all have some function. They aren't there purely for styling. Just because it's not an F1 car doesn't mean the spoiler has no function. It means you don't know what you're talking about if you say it doesn't.
The Fiero spoiler in particular, is not about increasing downforce. It's about reducing the backdraft of air over the decklid, and reducing the CD. The reduction in CD might be very small, as it's only 0.01 difference, But tiny improvements add up. Just ask all the aerodynamics engineers that worked on the Volt and Cruze Eco.
Maybe you don't like the look of the spoiler. And you clearly don't understand the meaning of functional in relation to the spoiler. But please stop espousing your own personal opinion on how it looks, as somehow being scientific fact.
a spoiler is of no Handling benefit under 80 MPH, so pretty much on a street car, they are for LOOKS. "Gramps" ?? Whats wrong with you ? he probably Forgot more than you Know.
Originally posted by Lou6t4gto: a spoiler is of no Handling benefit under 80 MPH, so pretty much on a street car, they are for LOOKS.
Clearly you haven't read anything in this or any of the other threads on the subject either.
Just because the spoiler does not increase downforce (for handling) does not mean there is no physical benefit. You and roger are both stuck in this spoilers/wings are for downforce ideology of how they are used on most race cars. That is not how they are used on production street cars. Nor is it just for looks.
The Fiero spoiler creates a measured improvement in airflow around the car. GM has documented that improvement, as was measured testing in wind tunnels. Trying to argue that it has absolutely no function and is purely for looks is just a blatant show of denial and ignorance.
The Fiero spoiler is functional. That is a fact. Whether you like the looks of it or not is irrelevant to that fact, and is your own personal opinion. Your opinion does not make the spoiler any less functional, nor does it change the facts. Do not try to espouse your own preference as fact, as they are two completely separate things. If you don't like the look, and want to say you don't like the look, then say you don't like the look, and move on. Don't say you don't like the look, and then go on to try and explain how they are completely non-functional because you don't like the look. That is just stupid.
[This message has been edited by dobey (edited 07-24-2014).]
OK, they are of use on some cars. Like I said ALREADY the roof wing on 308/328 was stuck on to keep the sun off the passengers necks and to help air blow off the dust and water on the back window.
Again, NONE of the wings, spoilers or splitters on a stock car do ANYTHING of importance on a street driven car. End of story. I dont care what engineers or ricer crowd thinks or says.
I said in my first post, THEY ARE A MATTER of taste, not function. If you like them fine, if you dont fine. I dont PERSONALLY....my opinion for my own cars.
European designers generally prefer function over flash. ie/ Mercedes engineers designed the ribbed tail light lenses on their cars to keep them clean. They also added the lower side ribs in the sheet metal to help keep water and road dirt from creeping up the sides to keep them cleaner. Theres a wealth of other info just like that in their book. Thats just the way they do things there. Most of the bling they do, like wings, are there for looks because the buyers want it. Some are functional because they are 180 mph street cars. AMG put lip spoilers on 350-560 series cars strictly because buyers liked the look. AMG is the premier division of performance factory Mercedes. The ONLY real function they did was add 25 pnds of rubber to the rear of the trunk lid...yes their lip spoiler is rubber. Get this....it was rubber because they didnt want an owner to get hit in the face with a metal edge if the lid come up harder than expected. You ever look into a 70s-80s SL...one of the most expensive production sports cars of the time? The interior door panels are flat leather or leatherette. All there is on it is a door handle and an optional armrest/door pull. It looks like a Volkswagen bug door panel.....again.....form follows function. No chrome dodads, no wood panels, not even a switch. Later ones added a bit of those BECAUSE buyers wanted a little bling.
If you really believe your Fiero wing is functional (at least of ANY measurable benefit) please tell me how ? It dont increase your top speed, it dont hold the rear end down, it dont give you more gas mileage. On the other hand, it DOES restrict rear view, does make washing and waxing harder, does add unnecessary weight (offsets that 1/10 of mile per gallon)....I will give you its a handy tie down for stuff...even better than the factory luggage rack, and tow lines for skateboarders.
[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 07-24-2014).]
OK, they are of use on some cars. Like I said ALREADY the roof wing on 308/328 was stuck on to keep the sun off the passengers necks and to help air blow off the dust and water on the back window.
Again, NONE of the wings, spoilers or splitters on a stock car do ANYTHING of importance on a street driven car. End of story. I dont care what engineers or ricer crowd thinks or says.
I said in my first post, THEY ARE A MATTER of taste, not function. If you like them fine, if you dont fine. I dont PERSONALLY....my opinion for my own cars.
If you really believe your Fiero wing is functional (at least of ANY measurable benefit) please tell me how ? It dont increase your top speed, it dont hold the rear end down, it dont give you more gas mileage. On the other hand, it DOES restrict rear view, does make washing and waxing harder, does add unnecessary weight (offsets that 1/10 of mile per gallon)....I will give you its a handy tie down for stuff...even better than the factory luggage rack, and tow lines for skateboarders.
They are a matter of function AND taste. Get it right if you're going to keep going on about it. YOUR concept of what is important is not the same as everyone else.
I already described how the Fiero spoiler is functional. It reduces air moving back up over the decklid from the rear of the car, reduces the CD by 0.01, and gives a slight increase in MPG as a result. If you'd spend 30 seconds more reading what you're trying to argue against, rather than just going off the rails with a long diatribe about how you think European cars are built, and used a little reading comprehension, you'd would have already known that.
[This message has been edited by dobey (edited 07-24-2014).]
They are a matter of function AND taste. Get it right if you're going to keep going on about it. YOUR concept of what is important is not the same as everyone else.
I already described how the Fiero spoiler is functional. It reduces air moving back up over the decklid from the rear of the car, reduces the CD by 0.01, and gives a slight increase in MPG as a result. If you'd spend 30 seconds more reading what you're trying to argue against, rather than just going off the rails with a long diatribe about how you think European cars are built, and used a little reading comprehension, you'd would have already known that.
You have a real problem with anyone who disagrees with anything you say don't you ! Are you an aerospace engineer or some other type of engineer because your wealth of knowledge is amazing. To bad most of it is just WTF dude is it possible anyone else could be right about anything?
Steve
------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't
Originally posted by 84fiero123: You have a real problem with anyone who disagrees with anything you say don't you ! Are you an aerospace engineer or some other type of engineer because your wealth of knowledge is amazing. To bad most of it is just WTF dude is it possible anyone else could be right about anything?
No, I just have a problem with people like you who keep trying to spout their personal preferences as indisputable scientific fact in a technical forum.
And yes, I am an engineer.
And yes, other people can be right about things. Some people on this forum are right about a lot of things a lot of the time. And when they are right, they aren't right because they're trying to espouse their personal utopia as fact. They're right because they're simply stating the facts. And all I did here, is state the facts. On the other hand, all roger did, was state his personal opinion in a way to try and establish it as fact. That is not a fact. It's a personal opinion.
Saying a thing has absolutely no function at all, when the function it has is well documented by the engineers who created and tested its functions, is just blatant ignorance; especially when one continues to ignore those facts.
They are a matter of function AND taste. Get it right if you're going to keep going on about it. YOUR concept of what is important is not the same as everyone else.
I already described how the Fiero spoiler is functional. It reduces air moving back up over the decklid from the rear of the car, reduces the CD by 0.01, and gives a slight increase in MPG as a result. If you'd spend 30 seconds more reading what you're trying to argue against, rather than just going off the rails with a long diatribe about how you think European cars are built, and used a little reading comprehension, you'd would have already known that.
I've never seen the CD measurements from GM but I'll take your word for it. Reducing the drag by a whopping 0.01 is spectacular. That's not even out of the margin of error. Hell, washing and waxing a car can save you 0.01 drag. GM would not have bothered with a rear wing on the Fiero if people didn't want one. Am I saying it doesn't help do what you claim it does? No, but I am saying that the cost to make the wing exceeds the benefit of 0.01 drag reduction. Remember, GM is run by bean counters, not engineers. If GM was run by engineers, Fieros would have had the 88 suspension and brakes from day one, not in the fifth year of production.
And one more thing...directed at no one in particular......Why does every discussion on this forum lately seem to end up in a pissing contest lately? There's a three page thread of arguments about whether or not tires flat spot. really? who gives a @$#%?
No, I just have a problem with people like you who keep trying to spout their personal preferences as indisputable scientific fact in a technical forum.
And yes, I am an engineer.
And yes, other people can be right about things. Some people on this forum are right about a lot of things a lot of the time. And when they are right, they aren't right because they're trying to espouse their personal utopia as fact. They're right because they're simply stating the facts. And all I did here, is state the facts. On the other hand, all roger did, was state his personal opinion in a way to try and establish it as fact. That is not a fact. It's a personal opinion.
Saying a thing has absolutely no function at all, when the function it has is well documented by the engineers who created and tested its functions, is just blatant ignorance; especially when one continues to ignore those facts.
I stated ONLY my opinion is I dont really like them...for looks. Im not ordering anyone to do anything.
The REAL FACTS ... that you wont admit....is that they are trinkets that dont do anything at all except add/detract from looks. If you feel great that your car goes 1 extra mile on a tank of gas BECAUSE you have a wing (because another engineer says so), your simply awesome. Dont spout off what engineers and designers, road test magazines say, tell us anything it does functionally that you can feel or tell. I know you cant, so you just will post some other link that MIT said about Fiero wings. I dont believe most of whats on the net, 1/4 of whats written (on anything). I only believe what 'I' can tell all on my own.......(just like tires flatspotting) You keep trying to show yours are the right facts by quoting or linking anything you can find written on it. I can find all kinds of experts and books saying there was an Atlantis in the Atlantic Ocean. All of it dont prove anything. Show me the picture of the city underwater, then Ill believe it. Until then, its ONLY my opinion to me if it was real or not.
You STILL havent told me a single thing the wing actually does that you can feel or measure. If it moves the air differently over the trunk lid, so what ? What specific benefit is it that means anything ? Yes, I to am very hard headed when someone tries to prove something that simply is NOT true. Keeping euro cars out of it since you dont know anything about them, tell me ANY American production street car that has a wing that does ANYTHING. Taurus little blade on the trunk, Mustangs Bi-wing, you pick one. Like pointed out, the Superbird had the biggest wing of the them all...high up in the airstream, and even adjustable. I owned one and it didnt do anything of benefit either. It did on NASCAR tracks though when it went 180 mph. Mine wouldnt do 130 on the floor going downhill with a 2 mile run on it. So engineer that.
AGAIN, in case you missed it somewhere, I never told anyone whether or not to have a wing. I DID say its a matter of personal taste/choice. MY choice is i dont like them.
MY FINAL post to answer FUN's original post is NO its definately NOT NEEDED. It dont do anything of a functional benefit you will ever be able to tell. Maybe if you take it to a wind tunnel and try 180 mph wind on it, you may see something.
[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 07-25-2014).]
Originally posted by TONY_C: And one more thing...directed at no one in particular......Why does every discussion on this forum lately seem to end up in a pissing contest lately? There's a three page thread of arguments about whether or not tires flat spot. really? who gives a @$#%?
because engineers are never wrong about anything they say about anything, its a fact, ask any engineer if they have ever been wrong about anything and they will tell you NO.
Case in point !
quote
Originally posted by dobey:
And yes, I am an engineer.
Have you ever been wrong about anything?
Edit to add the original question from the original poster.
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Originally posted by fun2drive:
Is a rear spoiler on a gt fastback really needed?
Steve
[This message has been edited by 84fiero123 (edited 07-25-2014).]
IF engineers were so good at everything why has GM had like 70 million cars recalled in the last year...thats only just past half over. The only thing they ARE good at is designing stuff to fail so theyre employer can sell them another down the road. Engineers were good on the Titanic too (I think they used the words engineering marvel)....how that work out. Any idiot would know that it isnt a watertite compartment when its wide open at the top 10'. See for yourself if you can sink a can with no lid by pushing it under water. A first grader can figure that out.
[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 07-25-2014).]
mine "under construction".
"some Progress"
WTF dude is it possible anyone else could be right about anything?
You keep trying to show yours are the right facts by quoting or linking anything you can find written on it. I can find all kinds of experts and books saying there was an Atlantis in the Atlantic Ocean. All of it dont prove anything. Show me the picture of the city underwater, then Ill believe it. Until then, its ONLY my opinion to me if it was real or not.
