quote Originally posted by Golden86: NICE! I thought you died or something, NOBODY could get a hold of you, even over he phone. Well... it's good to know your still alive. Hopefully my clutch wont get arrested again on the way down here. Thanks again James.

Nope, not dead yet. Been really sick and finally went to the doctor yesterday. Was a waset of time like I figured it would be but now I have some 'get better' pills. I've been busy at work as well.

I cant wait until yours and everyone elses cars are finished and summer starts! Should be pretty interesting.

Edit: Oh yeah, Page 3!!

[This message has been edited by FieroMaster88 (edited 03-10-2006).]

I WANTED PAGE 3!

It's good that your feeling better.

[This message has been edited by Golden86 (edited 03-10-2006).]

Well I went and saw the beast in person tonight and it looks good.
His super charger made an odd sound when i tured it that one time and gave off a funny smeel at the same time. Dunno how to describe the sound but it was very much like the sound those spiders that I sometimes step on make.
But seriously, the thing's looking good and I can't wait to dri...er, see it run.
Gonna be awesome if it sounds like Caseys car with that loud whine. Can't wait to hear that screamin SOB when we're drivin'!
I still think it'd be funnier to throw that beast into the ole Bulick instead as the ultimate sleeper. It already sounds like it's super charged though with that random myseterious noise. lol
One thing's for sure, our trip on the Dave express tour of the Dells should be even more interesting this year with both of our cars being swapped with a lot more power. Dunno what poor Joe's gonna do to keep up or Russel for that matter.
Glad to see you're alive James. I was even begining to wonder there. I figured you were just off clog dancing with the dutch guy.

[This message has been edited by Dave Gunsul (edited 03-10-2006).]

Finished A LOT of the wiring today, I almost have the whole thing wired up, all I have to do is finish the c500, and start on the c203 connector.

I was expecting a little more complications with it, but it is very straight forward. I am not quite sure why people don't try to wire up their own swaps, its pretty simple.

A few pics of the work in progress, I still have to loom everything, and make it look pretty

These are earlier photos(my camera died), I have more wiring done, like the alternator, trans, and a few other small things not pictured, but it still looks just as clean.

I can't wait for this to be done. It is really fun building it, but I'm sure it will be more fun driving it

Nice swap but why use the stock exhaust. With the mods you are doing I would go with something like this.

Custom Fuel Rails

He's not going to use the stock exhaust. Just the stock manifolds but they're ported.

Looking good mike! I cant believe that your clutch finally shipped, hells gonna freeze over! That thing should be hella-fast! Cant wait to see it in person!

quote I was expecting a little more complications with it, but it is very straight forward. I am not quite sure why people don't try to wire up their own swaps, its pretty simple.

Finally somone else agrees with me about that. I have not actually done it, but I have all the diagrams printed, and labed for my 97 GTP swap. I counted 23 connections in all. In 10th grade in highschool I made a small robot for a local competition, from completely nothing, and wired up way more than 30+ connections and designed my own controler. My country bumpkin friends of mine, the "just throw a carb on it" type, I use this analogy. "What else to I need other than 12 volts to the pcm, a ground, and fuel pressure to make this run?". They never have a response, but if it is any they will complain about spark, which is controled directly by the PCM. But as anyone that has done the swap wiring will see, if they dont want to completely rewire the stock engine harness so it will reach areas like the stock ECM mounting place, the whole job is really easy.

quote Originally posted by PCTECH: Nice swap but why use the stock exhaust. With the mods you are doing I would go with something like this. Custom Fuel Rails

It looks liek you had to cut out your trunk, I want to keep mine.

Also do you have a few more pics of those fuel rails, can you make more?

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: Finally somone else agrees with me about that. I have not actually done it, but I have all the diagrams printed, and labed for my 97 GTP swap. I counted 23 connections in all. In 10th grade in highschool I made a small robot for a local competition, from completely nothing, and wired up way more than 30+ connections and designed my own controler. My country bumpkin friends of mine, the "just throw a carb on it" type, I use this analogy. "What else to I need other than 12 volts to the pcm, a ground, and fuel pressure to make this run?". They never have a response, but if it is any they will complain about spark, which is controled directly by the PCM. But as anyone that has done the swap wiring will see, if they dont want to completely rewire the stock engine harness so it will reach areas like the stock ECM mounting place, the whole job is really easy.

I am using an OBD II harness, and splicing it into an OBD I harness for my 95 ECM. I have SO MANY wires left over from the OBD II harness, I can rewire the whole car with it if I wanted to. I will have to get a pic of it later.

I did rewire the whole engine so it goes to my ECM, and that was not hard at all. The only thing hard about it was making it look good.

O really, any reason you are using OBD1 other than the fact that darth likes to program it? I will be using a 97 PCM for mine I hope.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: O really, any reason you are using OBD1 other than the fact that darth likes to program it? I will be using a 97 PCM for mine I hope.

One reason is that I am using a 5-speed trans, and I don't need the ECM to controll my trans. Another reason is that it is REALLY cheap to have Darth program a chip for me. I also think it is less wiring, but im not too sure about that.

quote Originally posted by Golden86: It looks liek you had to cut out your trunk, I want to keep mine. Also do you have a few more pics of those fuel rails, can you make more?

I could have saved the trunk by making some other bends. I will take more pictures tonight. I can make more but instead of making the tubes I'm going to make fuel rail stock rails for sale only. I don't want to chance a weld breaking and fire starting on anyone's car. I have 5 sets of fuel rail stock cut and just need to drill the injector holes and make the brackets.

I just recieved my Spec stage 3 clutch, THANKS JAMES!

I know that people have been having trouble with spec installing the centers backwards or something, could you tell me if this is correct, does it all look ok...

Trans Side

Flywheel Side

I just want to be safe before I bolt it all together

[This message has been edited by Golden86 (edited 03-13-2006).]

It's the right clutch.

Yep you have the right clutch.

More Rail Pictures . Spec is the only way to go

Cool! Glad you got the clutch already! I never thought about checking the clutch, glad it's correct.

PC... Those rails look awsome, are you going to sell them any time soon?

quote Originally posted by Golden86: I have almost ALL the wiring done, except a few little connections that im not sure about. The first is, on the C203, there is a "VSS high", and a "VSS low". I also have both of those wires on my ECM, do I just split them to go to both connections? I also have a brown wire on the C203, "VSS feed for ECM" where does this go, I dont have any "VSS feed" pin on my ECM. I do have a "4k/mi speedo" pin, it is green. Also on my temp sensor, there a 3 wires, yellow, green, and a black. I have the green going to the gauge, and the black going to a sensor ground, where does the yellow go to, the ECM doesnt have an input for it. Last, I was wiring up my ignition controll module, and I noticed that I dont have any inputs for the "CKP 18x referance signal", and the "3x reference siganl" into my ECM, do I just not use them. I also have a "low speed fan 1" wire, and a "high speen fan" wire comming off my ECM, do I just use the low speed fan 1 wire? I have and ECM from a 95 Buick Riviera, and my engine/harness is from a 2000 GTP. Please help, once these are connected, the whole harness is finished. This is all I can think of as of right now, but im sure theres more.

My ECM is from the 95 Pontiac 3800 sc and it has different wiring. VSS High and low from c203 need to go to ECM RB2 and RB3. WD15 goes to the speedo. Yellow wire for temp sensor should go to the ECM BF13. CKP 18x referance signal", and the "3x reference siganl" and not used on mine. I used the High speed fan on my swap.
I could be wrong but this is just from memory. I'm going to make ruel rails but using the rail stock and will only be rails and legs for 150.00

quote Originally posted by PCTECH: My ECM is from the 95 Pontiac 3800 sc and it has different wiring. VSS High and low from c203 need to go to ECM RB2 and RB3. WD15 goes to the speedo. Yellow wire for temp sensor should go to the ECM BF13. CKP 18x referance signal", and the "3x reference siganl" and not used on mine. I used the High speed fan on my swap. I could be wrong but this is just from memory. I'm going to make ruel rails but using the rail stock and will only be rails and legs for 150.00

Thank you so much, I must have over looked the ECT signal pin, I have it. I think our wiring is the same, it all matches up with my ECM.

Another question, you said that WD15 (4k/mi speedo) goes to the speedometer, which wire is it on the C203, is it the brown wire called "VSS feed for ECM"

When you get those rails all finished up, please post pics, I would be interested.

[This message has been edited by Golden86 (edited 03-14-2006).]

quote Originally posted by PCTECH: I'm going to make ruel rails but using the rail stock and will only be rails and legs for 150.00

Put me in line for a set... so if you are only selling the rails, then I'd have to get a pressure regualtor and braided hose to connect them?

When you are ready to sell, or pre-sell them, let me know. my email address is in my profile.

quote Originally posted by Golden86: Thank you so much, I must have over looked the ECT signal pin, I have it. I think our wiring is the same, it all matches up with my ECM. Another question, you said that WD15 (4k/mi speedo) goes to the speedometer, which wire is it on the C203, is it the brown wire called "VSS feed for ECM" When you get those rails all finished up, please post pics, I would be interested.

I don't have the wiring diagrams infront of me so I can't 100 percent say. I can look it up on the wiring chart fiero STS created for me, will check when I get home from work. The fuel rails are going to get made next week after I pick up the drill bit for the injector holes. The Bit is about 130 and not cheap but it's the only one I have found that will fit the injectors 100 percent. I will also provide the part # 's for all fittings and regulators that will work. My other 3800 swap is going to get the same rails that will be for sale.

quote Originally posted by Golden86: I have almost ALL the wiring done, except a few little connections that im not sure about. The first is, on the C203, there is a "VSS high", and a "VSS low". I also have both of those wires on my ECM, do I just split them to go to both connections? I also have a brown wire on the C203, "VSS feed for ECM" where does this go, I dont have any "VSS feed" pin on my ECM. I do have a "4k/mi speedo" pin, it is green. Also on my temp sensor, there a 3 wires, yellow, green, and a black. I have the green going to the gauge, and the black going to a sensor ground, where does the yellow go to, the ECM doesnt have an input for it. Last, I was wiring up my ignition controll module, and I noticed that I dont have any inputs for the "CKP 18x referance signal", and the "3x reference siganl" into my ECM, do I just not use them. I also have a "low speed fan 1" wire, and a "high speen fan" wire comming off my ECM, do I just use the low speed fan 1 wire? I have and ECM from a 95 Buick Riviera, and my engine/harness is from a 2000 GTP. Please help, once these are connected, the whole harness is finished. This is all I can think of as of right now, but im sure theres more.

PCTECH beat me to the punch...

quote Originally posted by PCTECH: My ECM is from the 95 Pontiac 3800 sc and it has different wiring. VSS High and low from c203 need to go to ECM RB2 and RB3. WD15 goes to the speedo. Yellow wire for temp sensor should go to the ECM BF13. CKP 18x referance signal", and the "3x reference siganl" and not used on mine. I used the High speed fan on my swap. I could be wrong but this is just from memory. I'm going to make ruel rails but using the rail stock and will only be rails and legs for 150.00

According to my info, the Riviera PCM is wired up pretty much the same way as PCTECH's Pontiac 3800 PCM.

As far as what I would do with the VSS wiring, hook up the VSS hi and low wires from the PCM to the existing Fiero VSS wires (same color to same color). Don't cut the Fiero VSS wires, because since you are using a stock Fiero trans/VSS sensor, your speedo doesn't need to be hooked up to the PCM. That VSS 4000ppm output wire from WD15 on the 3800 PCM can be used to supply a VSS signal to the newer, all-electronic cruise control module used on 96-up 3800 Series II engines if you choose to ditch the Fiero vacuum servo type.

As far as the brown VSS wire in the C203 connector is concerned, you don't need to hook that to anything. That is 2000ppm VSS output from the Fiero speedo head to the stock Fiero ECM.

PCTECH is correct in that the yellow wire coming from your coolant temp sensor gets connected directly to term BF13 of the 3800 PCM. GM changed sensor designations around on diagrams and pinouts during the transition to OBD-2 which has created some confusion (old= CTS coolant temp sensor; new= ECT engine coolant temp; etc).

As far as the crank position sensor is concerned, those names changed as well.

CKP 3x reference signal = ppl/wht wire = "Fuel Control" or "Low resolution crankshaft position signal"
CKP 18x reference signal = lt blu/blk wire = "Spark Reference" or "High resolution crankshaft position signal"

Again, here is another instance where GM changed the name of circuits on the same components/functions over the years. In this case, the same wire color or terminal position on the ignition module was retained between OBD-1 and OBD-2 which is what you can use as a guide to figure out what got renamed.

As far as what speed fan wire to use off the PCM, either output can be reprogrammed to turn on and off at certain coolant temps. In addition, the low fan output circuit will get activated any time the A/C is requested and the high fan output will activate only when high A/C pressure is detected via a hi-side pressure switch input on the PCM (and A/C is on).

Hope this helps.

-ryan

------------------
power corrupts. absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Custom Computer Tuning | Engine Conversions | Turbocharging | www.gmtuners.com

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: As far as what I would do with the VSS wiring, hook up the VSS hi and low wires from the PCM to the existing Fiero VSS wires (same color to same color). Don't cut the Fiero VSS wires, because since you are using a stock Fiero trans/VSS sensor, your speedo doesn't need to be hooked up to the PCM. That VSS 4000ppm output wire from WD15 on the 3800 PCM can be used to supply a VSS signal to the newer, all-electronic cruise control module used on 96-up 3800 Series II engines if you choose to ditch the Fiero vacuum servo type.

I am not going to use cruise control, so do I need to hook the VSS wires into the ECM, or just the speedo?

Thanks everyone

quote Originally posted by Golden86: I am not going to use cruise control, so do I need to hook the VSS wires into the ECM, or just the speedo? Thanks everyone

Even if you are not going to use cruise, the ECM still needs to see a VSS signal; otherwise you could have stalling and other drivability issues.

-ryan

ok, so I split the VSS wires to go to the ECM and the C203 connector.

After these few conections, I will have the whole harness finished.

One more question, it is about the AC

I have the blue wire from the C203 connector going to the AC realy, do I also hook that wire into the ECM's AC request pin?

quote Originally posted by Golden86: One more question, it is about the AC I have the blue wire from the C203 connector going to the AC realy, do I also hook that wire into the ECM's AC request pin?

Yes, that blue wire is the "a/c request" wire for the PCM.

Thanks Darth, PCtech, you have both been great help to me.

I finished the whole harness tonight, it looks great.

I still have the ground and ALDL wire loose

Here is all the wire I didn't have to use off the OBDII harness

quote Originally posted by Golden86: One more question, it is about the AC I have the blue wire from the C203 connector going to the AC realy, do I also hook that wire into the ECM's AC request pin?

Ther are also some inputs from the A/C high pressure switch. I dont have a schematic in front of me but I think these also need to be hooked up for the ecm to control the a/c relay.

The ac is a pain to get it working without it leaking. My 88 gt had a compressor off a 5k mile and 2003 engine and still leaked. I have to replace my compressor for the 3rd time. I've been getting used ones, so I'm going to get a new or rebuilt one. Make sure you replace all the o-rings and orfice tube and Drier if your system was R12. I would also make sure you pull a vacum before you put Freon in. Harbor Frieght has the vac for 9.99. Just a little FYI. Your swap is looking very nice.

quote Originally posted by Fiero STS: Ther are also some inputs from the A/C high pressure switch. I dont have a schematic in front of me but I think these also need to be hooked up for the ecm to control the a/c relay.

I thought the AC high pressure switch is just a high speed fan request when the AC is being used. If I only have a single speed fan, the fan will be on with the initial AC request.

quote Originally posted by Golden86: I thought the AC high pressure switch is just a high speed fan request when the AC is being used. If I only have a single speed fan, the fan will be on with the initial AC request.

You are correct. Normally, the hi-side a/c pressure switch would need to be hooked up to prevent a trouble code from setting in the PCM. But I can reprogram this PCM to not look for the hi-side switch, and as long as you are using the low fan output to control your cooling fan, the PCM will turn on the cooling fan anytime the A/C is on.

BTW: nice looking swap so far!

I have a question on the stock fuel regulator. I took some pics before I tore the engien apart, and I notice that the fuel pressure regulator has a vacume tube going to the TB, and a tube going into the lower intake. The TB is under vacume, while the lower intake has boost, how does this work?

Or, I just took a bad pic of the engine, and it is only hooked the the TB.

I thought all fuel pressure regs run off of vacume.

So, my question is, how do I run the lines for the Fuel pressure reg?

You got lucky with that waterpump housing... That part you drilled is a different thickness on different engines. Yours is the thickest I've seen. I did the same on my OBD1 car, but on the OBD2 car, the bracket had to be made from the bolt above...

You can probably see how thin it was from this pic...

I guess I am lucky, I have probably another half inch left of material behind that bolt.

does anybody know about the fuel pressure reg, I asked 2 or 3 posts up?