Cut the ring end off of the new booster and cut the rod off of the Fiero booster ( making it as long as you can). I used a hunk of steel rod and drilled a hole in each end ( to match the dia of the push rod, the S-10 and Fiero rods are slightly different diameters). Make the new pushrod equal to the length of the original Fiero rod. The S-10 booster has 4 bolts coming out of the back and the bracket fits right over these bolts, you just have to buy 4 nuts and washers.
Just as a side note , I did have the 12" Vette rotor setup on my car before but I didn't like having to carry a 16" spare in the front ( sunroof glass wouldn't fit in the front anymore) and I think that I now have better braking with the stock rotors and the bigger booster than with the Vette setup. I don't know if I would do both conversions at the same time - brakes might get a little too touchy.
WCF offers a spare tire that will work with thier Corvette Brake Upgrade, however will still fit under the front area as it is based off of the factory spare
I've looked into this a little bit more, and I have one small word of caution at this point. The s10 has come with quite a few different boosters over the years. The one in the fiero and the bigger one used by Phil in this upgrade look to me like double diaphragm boosters. There are smaller boosters and even single diaphragm boosters used in the s10s at different points in time. You definately want a bigger double diaphragm booster for best effect, and a smaller single diaphragm booster or single diaphragm booster (apparently from the earlier years) could be a brake downgrade. It would be nice if Phil could provide some more details fo the exact year and what part number he used? If he already posted this I apologize in advance...
Okay, I started this upgrade. Purchased the brake booster, and have removed my old one. One thing that concerns me is the slight modification to the compartment via a BFG. I tapped that area and it appears to be very fortified. Which makes me think that there is some heavy hitting required. Would it be better to cut and then weld a section into there?
My concern is that the front suspension is directly below that area. Could I possible harm something, shock mount or suspension attachments?
Does the offer still stand " if you bring the booster and some bolts i will slapp it on there " , lol !! I'm an actor ( well......trying to be ) and i will be in a small budget film up in CT towards the end of the summer. Think maybe i could make a small detour on the way back?
Does the offer still stand " if you bring the booster and some bolts i will slapp it on there " , lol !! I'm an actor ( well......trying to be ) and i will be in a small budget film up in CT towards the end of the summer. Think maybe i could make a small detour on the way back?
Sure - unless I can arrange to be out of town at that time.
I just finished this upgrade/modification. Its was not that difficult, but does take some time, especially if you have not done it before. Thanks Phil for the simple advice about measuring, and checking your measurements. I was careful and I also welded, double welded my brake to power booster connecting rod.
The results. The brakes appear strong but I am not able to lock up my tires. I dont have stock tires and rims, both are larger so that might account for this. I will have to drive some more and see how the brakes feel at high speed. But, from first impressions it appears worth the time. I could not image I have lost any braking power, but still feel that I will have to eventually go to larger rotors. As if I did not know this. Thanks Phil, nice modification.
Here are a couple of pics of three boosters. The one in the middle is a Fiero with the bracket removed. The one on the right is from a 90 S-10 fwd. Except for the bracket it appears to be identical to the Fiero booster.
The one on the left is from a 97 S-10 from the junkyard. It is borderline too large to fit into the space in the Fiero even with some heavy duty BFH work. It doesn't look exactly like the one pictured earlier in this thread. It has a smooth ring around the outside where the earlier pic shows a scalloped edge like the Fiero. Phil mentioned the need to deform the inner fender about an 1/8". Took a lot more than that to get the bracket flat to the firewall and the booster was still touching the inner fender.
The 97 S-10 is about 10 3/4" dia. The Fiero is about 8 3/4" dia.
Is this the right booster? If not, what do I look for?
I have to test fit mine several times, and make "corrections" with the hammer. But, it will fit. Though I have to admit when I compared mine to the stock I thought "there is no way this is going in there without a cutting torch". But, yes it will fit and is a nice upgrade. Please, as Phil suggested, take your time and cut the pedal rod carefully. Probably want to have it welded, since if it breaks or comes apart your literally have no brakes. You would be pretty defenseless if anyone was hurt, or even yourself, trying to explain to the insurance company or police that you modified your brakes and that is why you ran over a squad of nuns.
I did this upgrade on my 84 track car, which has stock braking system except has stock front calipers at both the front and rear. A few things: 1. It dramatically increased stopping power. I like it a lot. 2. Don't use JB weld, get it welded for real. I tried it with a steel coupling and JB weld and it failed after about 10 miles. Cost me $20 to get welded (used steel coupling again). 3. I had to use a couple of M10 washers on each of the m/c mounting bolts, because without them the pushrod thing from booster to m/c was causing brakes to be engaged even w/o pressing the pedal.
[This message has been edited by schumi (edited 08-19-2006).]
FieroX did something interesting where he used an electric vacuum pump to draw down the power assist booster on his wild turbo setup. Instead of just being able to generate the 18-21 inches of vacuum the average car idles at around sea level, he can probably draw close to 29 inches.. a massive difference. As someone else stated, a booster is sealed and good for several stops once drawn down, even if the vacuum source goes away. It's not a mission critical item to have it keep up with braking or engine size unless your driving has you pumping the pedal continuosly. Experiment... start your car and then shut it off, then push the brakes. You should hear the booster functioning each time until it's equalized to atmosphere. Or after your car has been off a while, twist the elbow (check valve) going into the booster, it'll still be under vacuum and you'll hear the whoosh as you break the seal.
I wonder if one of these 9" boosters would work? It appears to be slightly smaller and perhaps not require mods to fit. It looks to have a threaded rod which might make it a bit simpler to adapt.
64-72 GM BRAKE BOOSTER, Delco Moraine Stamp part number 2410990 9" Booster.
Keep in mind, the smaller booster won't give as much brake assist. Since the reason for the swap is to get more assist, I would think you'd want to go with the largest booster that will fit. The S10 booster looks to be about as much as you can squeeze in there without major surgery.
Hey, I just did the booster upgrade on my 86 GT. Easy, low cost and "At last I have brakes like a real car." No more panic every time a quick stop is required. THe brakes feel just like the brakes on my new dodge. Very impressive for the price. Thanks a million, Phil. It is the answer to my prayers. The install was as easy as you stated. The new booster (A1 Cardone P/N A154-71061, cost me 110.31 @ AutoParts Warehouse. Unfirtunately, the core cost ($30) will be lost as the booseter is different and the old one is cut up. The new booster is 2 inches larger in diameter, but fits well with the "hammer" mod. Very little hammering required. The whole mod would have taken about an hour if not for the brake shaft change. I cut off the end of the new shaft and the old shaft so as to connect the old brake connector to the new shaft. The new total shaft length is 9 1/2 in. from the face of the booster to the center of the brake banjo connector. I cut to size, found a sleeve at a hardware store and welded the shafts together. That's it. I didn't even have to bleed the brakes, since the master cylinder lines were never removed. What a difference. If you are looking for real brakes on a Fiero, this is the ticket.
Originally posted by theogre: The issue is that many people that might do this, and see a performance increase, are compairing apples to oranges. IE compairing a defective OE part to a new or better condition used part. This happens allot when people compair OE rubber suspension parts to polyurethane aftermarket parts.
Can't agree more...
Was there a problem with the original 20+ year old part that could solved by replacing it with a 'new' unit (not necessary a bigger one)?
I finally got around to doing the S10 booster mod today. Wow, what a difference! Real power brakes! I think it could be called a "must do" modification.
Has anyone done this mod with GA brakes? With GA brakes and the K5 master cylinder? How about the GA brakes and S10 master cylinder? lol, too many questions.
[This message has been edited by Hudini (edited 03-05-2007).]
wow that was alot of reading ....lol....now this thread defines the different of practical and theory good mod phil....as soon as im in need of an upgrade (why fix whats not broken) knock on wood) link added to favorites for when the time comes thanks
------------------ It isnt re-creation....its recreation!!!!
Was there a problem with the original 20+ year old part that could solved by replacing it with a 'new' unit (not necessary a bigger one)?
Second. I can lock the brakes in my car no problem, and its stock brakes and stock booster stopping 16" wheels. I worry for people who say this made a monumental difference, makes me think you had a serious problem beforehand.
That said, if I'm not impressed with my brakes when I upgrade to 11 1/4s, I'll be doing this mod.
[This message has been edited by Fastback 86 (edited 03-14-2007).]
Fastback, if your brakes are so great, why are you going to upgrade to 11 1/4's. Try this simple and cheap mod and you too will be saying "wow". I have two Fiero's, one of them since it was almost new. Though the brakes on both have always been adequate, they've never been awe inspiring. Now, I keep looking for excuses to make panic stops instead of trying to avoid them!
[This message has been edited by triker (edited 03-14-2007).]
the booster off an 88 Fiero is another route..it gives a bit more umph aside from the check valve being bigger, you will need the master cyl. from the donor. The check valve wont fit between the booster and the old pre 88 master cyl. Red
Fastback, if your brakes are so great, why are you going to upgrade to 11 1/4's. Try this simple and cheap mod and you too will be saying "wow". I have two Fiero's, one of them since it was almost new. Though the brakes on both have always been adequate, they've never been awe inspiring. Now, I keep looking for excuses to make panic stops instead of trying to avoid them!
Cheesy sales pitch aside, you're missing the point. Did you do any work to repair or replace your stock brakes before you did this modification? If I can lock the wheels with the stock brakes, why would I need to upgrade them with this mod? Increasing the force on the brakes isn't going to do anything if I can already lock them, it'll just make them easier to lock. My point is, if you haven't made sure your brake system is in perfect working order (no old bulging hoses, no old fluid, no leaks in the vacuum booster, no leaks in the master cylinder or the calipers, no sticking calipers, etc etc), then how can you know that this mod was so beneficial?
Now in my case, I'm interested in all around improvement. Locked wheels are useless, so I want more stopping power before I get to the point of locking them, which the larger brakes will afford me. Even more beneficial over the stock brakes is that the new ones will be larger and vented and will not overheat nearly as easily, which will be much nicer (not to mention safer) when driving hard on windy roads. On top of all of that, I figure if I'm going to replace all the brake parts anyway, why replace with stock stuff when I can spend a little bit more and get a lot more performance?
Also note that, if I can't get enough stopping power out of the stock booster and master cylinder, I will be doing this mod.
Well in my case I'm running larger wheels and much stickier tires on my car. My stock brakes were in perfect condition, but I was not able to lock them up after putting on big wheels and sticky tires. I upgraded to the 13" corvette rotors, and now I can lock them up. I see this upgrade as the same kind of thing. What you say is true about stock parts, but there are other parts that are getting upgraded on fieros all the time (such as my wheels and tires) and at some point the braking system can be the weak link in the total package even though it's in perfect condition. With my 13" upgrade, I achieved the better braking I needed, but I also picked up unsprung weight. I highly doubt this one adds as much weight to the car, and what weight it does add goes in the front cargo bay instead of at the wheels. I plan on doing this upgrade, even though I can lock them up now, because when I eventually get back into autocrossing I'll probably go with even stickier tires and go back to stock sized rotors.
Would using the S10 master cylinder be a viable braking solution along with the booster as well? I have read a few don't do it posts in the past, but thought I would bring it up for current discussion. I have an 88 Fiero with Carbomet pads and vented discs.
Well in my case I'm running larger wheels and much stickier tires on my car. My stock brakes were in perfect condition, but I was not able to lock them up after putting on big wheels and sticky tires. I upgraded to the 13" corvette rotors, and now I can lock them up. I see this upgrade as the same kind of thing. What you say is true about stock parts, but there are other parts that are getting upgraded on fieros all the time (such as my wheels and tires) and at some point the braking system can be the weak link in the total package even though it's in perfect condition. With my 13" upgrade, I achieved the better braking I needed, but I also picked up unsprung weight. I highly doubt this one adds as much weight to the car, and what weight it does add goes in the front cargo bay instead of at the wheels. I plan on doing this upgrade, even though I can lock them up now, because when I eventually get back into autocrossing I'll probably go with even stickier tires and go back to stock sized rotors.
Well said. In non-autocross/racing situations, the stock brake system works fine if its well-maintained. I was able to lock up slightly larger than stock wheels (15") with good tires with my stock brakes. I haven't tried yet with my 16s, but that extra weight and rotating mass will make a difference. The only time I've ever had a problem with the stock brakes is a) the stopping distance, since you can only put so much force on those little rotors with one piston before the lock, and b) the fade under hard driving/racing conditions.
Would using the S10 master cylinder be a viable braking solution along with the booster as well? I have read a few don't do it posts in the past, but thought I would bring it up for current discussion. I have an 88 Fiero with Carbomet pads and vented discs.
Billl
Personally, I would only do the S10/Blazer Master Cylinder WITH this large booster mod. Increasing the fluid capacity of the system (the master cylinder) really doesn't do much with out more force to work on it, which is where the large booster would come in.
Neet Idea! Unless I am mistaken there is a differance between pounds per square inch and vacum. the both will affect a diaphragm in its intended manner. I work on valve operators in power plants the force that is applied is measured by finding the surface area of the diaphragm and multipling by the amount of psi applied, in the case of brakes it would be vacum, surface area would be Pi times the radius squared. then multiply this number by how many inches of vacum. this would give you the amount of force being applied to the MC. please correct if I have made a mistake. These are the kind of tips needed to help keep our toys where they belong on the road cruising
You should not have a soft pedal. We have more than one car with the Blazer MC and we do NOT have a soft pedal. The brakes require more effort, that is pounds of force, to apply, but the pedal is not soft. If you have a soft pedal you generally have one of two problems. Bad rubber hoses that are expanding under pressure or, more likely, you don't have all the air out yet.
John Stricker
quote
Originally posted by Quickster:
But I have a revelant question.........Does replacing the Master Cylinder with a Bigger one have an affect on the pedal? I replaced my M/C with a Bigbore and the brakes haven't been the same since! Now,...if I replaced the Booster with the aforementioned S-10 option,...would that help my "soft Pedal" problem?
I'm hoping he meant the pedal goes further towards the floor before engaging the brakes. A soft spongey pedal is bad no matter what brakes you have. That is air being compressed.
EDIT: or the rubber hoses expanding as stated above. (Thanks, missed that one)
[This message has been edited by Hudini (edited 07-31-2007).]
