incase anyone else just followed fierosound's website instructions... ugh, I really didn't need 3/8" diameter push rods, just needed the correct length: 5.85"
Also, I used the Summit narrow body 1.6 FULL ROLLER aluminum rockers...hope they clear the valve cover...
working on further smoothening of the upper and middle intake...
dyno to follow in coming weeks...yes, I know I am 2 months behind schedule...
[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 07-28-2006).]
While there are aftermarket cams shafts available, I didn't bother as none of the manufactures post their spec and I haven't seen any 3400 dynoes where a significant difference was made in power.
I was trying to use 1.7 rockers but none are available in the narrow body style that our heads require. So I am stuck with the .273" * 1.6 ratio = .4368" lift on the intake and exhaust. HOWEVER, this is a roller cam and should still have the valve open at max lift for a longer duration than a typical hydraulic cam. Hence still more overall lift than let's say an H260 but probably not as much as an H272 cam. Let's not forget the friction reduction benefits as well. This cam produces peak power @ 5200 rpm which is right where I want it for a happy street motor. The H260 cam produces peak @ 4500 rpm with .432/.458 using 1.52 rockers for comparison. Stock Fiero cam is .390"/.410" with a peak power @ 4800 rpm using stock 1.5 ratio rockers.
My tagert rwhp is 180 using the above ported, polished and shortened intake and a modified Fiero exhaust system...smashinging my own record of 150 rwhp with the Fiero intake in a NA motor without a bottle of NO2 using a 3.4 pushrod motor.
EDIT: Had to fully qualify my "record" before 10 people said I was full of it.
[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 07-28-2006).]
Make sure the injectors are 12 ohms, GM and Ford used peak hold injectors in some applications, the peak hold type will ruin the injector drivers in the stock fiero ECM. If you are interested in different cam specs Schneider racing reground my cam to turbo specs for a reasonable price.
Make sure the injectors are 12 ohms, GM and Ford used peak hold injectors in some applications, the peak hold type will ruin the injector drivers in the stock fiero ECM. If you are interested in different cam specs Schneider racing reground my cam to turbo specs for a reasonable price.
Well, it's too late for me there. However, what's a reasonable price? I've seen camshafts go for $300 and $400 with no published specs... I did find one for $200 but the manufacturer never got back to me on specs... I want a street motor. Your cam defines that. 5200rpm peak if fine by me. Actually perfect.
I don't mind. I'm all about people giving GOOD information vs. non-real-world-theory.
Read my first or second post about the pushrods. After I bought them and my machinist said "Why are they thicker and have to machine the guide plates?"...I asked Fierosound and he said "When I told Smith Brothers the length I needed, that's what showed up. I never asked for 3/8" diameter." Interestingly when I ordered them from Smith Bros, the guy thought I was weird for asking them to be 3/8" thick. Live and learn...
As for the compression on dished pistons, I think it's in the archives...does make for a cheaper turbo-friendly block.
As for lifters, I haven't seen a need for aftermarket ones. Why do you think you need aftermarket ones?
Also, I think I have to revise my hp estimate as I am pretty sure this 6-speed in a Fiero will incur a much higher driveline loss due to Archie's solution for taking up the space between the deeper housing of the 6 speed and our flywheel... 170rwhp. I did buy a Fidanza aluminum fly wheel, but I don't think I've offset enough weight and it does make shifting a bit (ok, alot) unpleasant with the stock flywheel and a 2.8 when I was driving it before the motor swap.
Maybe it was the SPEC clutch, I don't know, I've always liked the way the stock clutch grabbed evenly. I've never driven a car with a SPEC clutch but it doesn't look much different than stock. I've also never driven a G6 or GTP with this transmission, so I could be off base. We'll see what a difference the aluminum flywheel makes in a few weeks...
For now, my recommendation is - enjoy your Getrags...
edited for spelling...
[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 07-29-2006).]
Lou! I guess this means you didn't make it to the spec drags? I didn't either (naturally), was hoping to hear of some Fieros kicking butt there.. The swap I bought has turned into a nightmare, It's basically "rip it out and start again". Everything that could be wrong is. I just hope the Getrag doesn't grenade on the first drive. It's a Spec clutch and supposedly rebuilt trans, but if it's like everything else has been it'll probably barf at the first stoplight. At the rate I'm going, I won't be at Seekonk until 2008. Ugh.
------------------ Bob Williams Working on the next 3800 swap.. Missing the working one already!
Well, it's too late for me there. However, what's a reasonable price? I've seen camshafts go for $300 and $400 with no published specs... I did find one for $200 but the manufacturer never got back to me on specs... I want a street motor. Your cam defines that. 5200rpm peak if fine by me. Actually perfect.
I paid $127 for my cam regrind through Schneider racing cams. I told them what I wanted and gave them as many specs as I could round up. My roller now provides .466 & .464 lift instead of the stock .423 and 212 & 208 duration. It's a turbo grind and since twin turbos will allow for a lot less back pressure there is more duration on intake than exhaust to help avoid the possibility of blowing the air fuel charge out the cylinder into the exhaust. They took care of it right away also.
I asked for a high rev grind and was told it should have a range of 2500-6500
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 07-29-2006).]
I was at the July 2nd show but only to check out the competition. I was not impressed. I expect nothing but victory for me. Are you still working on the SC3800->getrag swap? Dyno it right away so you don't blow it up. If your a/f is off, you'll know right away.
@JosephUpson
Nice to see a place with a quick turn-around. Sounds like a good deal. I would have preferred more lift but I will be happy with this cam's peak hp point.
...
I'll try posting pics of the SPEC clutch and aluminum flywheel later today... I have some questions about the clutch...
Yep, still working on it. With the way everything on this car is turning out, I have a feeling the flywheel wasn't balanced right and it's going to blow up. But I hope not. I'll at least have a scan tool running (one of those Aeroforce gauges and have the PC for more details) to check for knock retard. The only mod on the engine is a 3.4" pulley. Also has a Spec III clutch, with the correct center hub going by the pictures I saw. Hope to be done with it this year, and hope to run into you at the track!
It's all up to the mechanic now. The engine has been there since Thursday, he's just got to schedule it in. I want to hit a dyno before I race so I know I'm not going too lean...so I hope it's ready by this Thursday...
The mechanic says the Fiero is going to be sitting in the shop when I get home... He wants me to install Darryl's aluminum bushings myself while he adds all the accessories to the engine.
There is hope I may still race this Sunday at Seekonk.
When shortening the intake between the middle and upper a total of .6" like I did, the intake bolts will have to be threaded an extra 1/4" up the shaft of the bolt.
Yet another delay...
08/07/06 7:06pm - it only cost me $30 but could probably could have gotten away with 3 washers on each intake bolt.
[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 08-07-2006).]
I'm in this same process (of putting an 3400 FWD from a G/A in my Fiero).
Since my setup will be similar to your (Fiero intake, Fiero iron head) can you give us what exactly you use and what it take from the Fiero 2.8 block and what you use from the 3400....to finally end with the final working engine?
For example I know that you put aftermarket rocker arm, but I will call them "2.8" since that for what they are made for.
Heres a partial list I've figured out for now. I'm more into my complete body/frame restoration now but I pick up any information to prepare my own swap.
Part used from the 3400: Block Crank Connecting rod Lifter Camshaft Oil pan Timing chain
Parts used from the 2.8: Throttle body/plenum/middle/lower intake Valve cover Distributor Iron head (H.O.) (complete whith rocker/spring/valves) Water pump Timing cover Drive pulley Timing/damper pulley
Part coming from other source: Pushrod (custom correct lenght...Smith Brothers?) Piston Flywheel (from an '88 Fiero or Z34 or any zero balanced that fit) Mustang or other compatible #19 injectors
Do I miss something? In the "other source" department can you help us in from wich "donnor" we can use them or from wich source?
Which piston did you used? Anything else special to mention when building the engine? other parts, special preparation?
I've read the Fierosound web site, but nothing better than a live discussion and fresh memory of the same engine building
Many many thanks!
[This message has been edited by perry rhodan (edited 08-07-2006).]
I used the Federal Mogul TDC pistons listed on Fierosound's site, re-used the rods and crank from the 3400.
The diameter of the pushrods can be stock, don't pay for the extra weight and thickness of the 3/8" he received (but didn't ask for). The timing mark on the 3400 wheel is set up the same as the 2.8 so no need to modify that.
As for the rocker conversion, I chose to go for FULL roller rockers. The Fiero Store sells a kit that comes with the rocker stud adapters and Crane 1.6 full roller w/narrow body. You must get NARROW BODY rockers. If you can find FULL ROLLER NARROW BODY rockers in a ratio higher than 1.6, please let me know. These are for 3.8 Vortec motors. I'm amazed I couldn't find higher ratios that were full roller... I ordered Summit rockers, p/n SUM-G6936-16 is cheaper than 12 individual ones.
I ordered the stud adapters from Jegs, it's a Crane p/n 99148-2, comes in sets of 2 for around $24. So you need 6 sets. The end that goes into the head is 10mm diameter, the end that the rocker mounts to is 3/8" diameter. You could stick with roller tip rockers, but I wanted FULL ROLLER...
I used a 2003 Monte Carlo 3400. When the machine shop put it on, it was at TDC at cylinder #1 with both valves closed. I told him to use to F-body 3.4 head gasket.
I did the calculations to find out the C/R with stock 3400 internals and iron heads using the calculator from this website. I came up with around 7.3:1. Does this sound right?
Auto tech. Your calculations are right 7.38 cr. Since mine is bored .030 over and 0 deck height flat tops were out of the question. Looked up the pistons for a 3.4 dohc 91-95, 5 cc dish, must have big valve reliefs. Lou calculates to 9.95 with stock bore and .0065 deck height, think that's right. I would check valve to piston clearance.
Yes, Autotech, I used the DOHC pistons and they have valve reliefs. Calculations by other people have been 9.7 - 9.8. That should help make up for the extra ethanol in the fuel. I plan to continue using 87 octane unless I have a pinging problem which will be pretty obvious strapped to a dyno.
I'm looking for another mechanic now and waiting for a lawyer to call me back so I know I can demand my keys and get the car towed somewhere else. Bastard kicked me out of his shop when I complained about the way he let my a-arms hang and pull the boots of my new 6-speed setup. Called yesterday and asked when my car will be done. He said "in a couple of weeks if I feel like doing it." I told him to unbolt the strut towers so that I wouldn't need an alignment, instead he undid the spindles. He still could have put the wheels back on or supported the A-arms in another way, but didn't. Pissed me right off. Now I'm looking for a new mechanic and if my axles clunk when I get the car, he's going to owe me some money.
Wew...all this seem to become very unpleasent on your side....Thats why , even if I'm a "swap virgin", I want to do as much as I can myself and avoid to have to rely on some "stupid" guys (read mechanic) that I can come by if I have to choose a place to have it done for me.Also thats one of the reason I often ask questions here about the subject. I need to be very well informed before attempting anything that can hurt my swap or my thin wallet.
Hope you will resolve your "dispute" as soon as possible.
Unfortunately I don't have a garage where I'd be able to take my time. So I pay and pay and pay...
Luckily, the mechanic who did my last swap but wasn't available at the time to do this swap - has agreed to finish the job! Just got to go through the b.s. of getting my car out of there via police and probably courts.
Anyone worried about the pistons kissing the valves should try using a Fel-Pro head gasket shim from the 2.8L and match the bore on it to the 3.4 gasket.
------------------ By:Custom2M4 in process-12" front brakes using '88 calipers and '88 vented brakes in rear hybird rear suspension 3400 turbo in the works
The progress is my lawyer should have paperwork ready to present the mechanic who is holding my car hostage in order to exort more money from me despite the fact that he cracked a coolant tube, bent another and several other things that will cost me money and when I complained, stopped working on my car until I paid him another $1000.
Latest update. The 93A demand letter we sent to the mechanic and on the 30th day, a pathetic answer was given with not even a reason for abandonning work on my car. We are moving forward with a full lawsuit.
The swap I bought has turned into a nightmare, It's basically "rip it out and start again". Everything that could be wrong is. I just hope the Getrag doesn't grenade on the first drive. It's a Spec clutch and supposedly rebuilt trans, but if it's like everything else has been it'll probably barf at the first stoplight. At the rate I'm going, I won't be at Seekonk until 2008. Ugh. 
I've basically lost all hope of running there this year. 
