Originally posted by La fiera: Don't get mad Lou, Carbon has a point there. Eleven pages on your built and now you are down in power, It has happened to all of us at one time. Just sit down and re-think your set up and follow Will's advice about bench racing. Criticism can make you better, it is just how you take it. Best wishes on your next race!
Rei Moloon
But I'm not down in power. The dyno operator doesn't know what he's doing. It's a relatively new shop and he already has a rap for low readings. I only used him because no one else was open on Saturday. The original Mustang dyno I took, that owner/operator took his car back and forth between his shop and a reputable dynojet shop to get his Mustang dyno to report like a Dynojet. At 149 rwhp, I would not be performing like I'm performing on the track. I'm not making less torque than a bone stock 2.8. It's a joke. I think he does this to sell tuning services. But he also claimed to know nothing about non-turboed RWD cars. All he does is AWD turbo cars. I don't out power an Audi R4 6speed with 149 hp. Just read the signature from post #1 here: http://www.mazda3forums.com...=8267182&postcount=1
Sad when your customer advertise that your shop is "low reading"...
You'd be surprise what you can out power with a lightweight mid-engine car like yours, specially at take off and powering out of a corner. Looking forward to your next dyno session.
Originally posted by Will: Thought you said you had some ignition break-up... That's not a dyno problem.
Where did I say that?
When I took this dyno: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...L/075502-6.html#p202 I did have a detonation problem and adding octane booster is what brought me UP to my current power level and back into the +2XX ft*lbs of torque range.
[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 07-15-2013).]
Originally posted by La fiera: You'd be surprise what you can out power with a lightweight mid-engine car like yours, specially at take off and powering out of a corner. Looking forward to your next dyno session.
Rei Moloon
Ok, so you're saying a 2005 Mustang Cobra with 330rwhp and a curb weight of 3345 is slower than a 149 rwhp Fiero with a curb weight of 2750...? My power to weight ratio is closer to 11:1 than to the 18:1 the dyno reported.
[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 07-15-2013).]
I like the idea of this thread and building your hybrid 3400 engine but all i read is someone elses crappy workmanship of your parts or them not knowing how to run their own shop correctly. You compare your car based on a personal opinion and circle track races. So much more factors in than just pure engine power. After reading how you talk about other people on here i would hate to meet you in person.
Ok, so you're saying a 2005 Mustang Cobra with 330rwhp and a curb weight of 3345 is slower than a 149 rwhp Fiero with a curb weight of 2750...? My power to weight ratio is closer to 11:1 than to the 18:1 the dyno reported.
If you go to his video, he claims 330 rwhp and it's a Mustang Cobra. Does the year actually matter?
To me it does, you pulled wrong information out of your hat to use in a debate. Like the "221hp" figure on page 11.
The results are close to what I figured, even on a pre-loaded dyno. Id be interested in trap speeds if you ever ran it in the Q, my guess would be ~90mph thru the eyes
I like the idea of this thread and building your hybrid 3400 engine but all i read is someone elses crappy workmanship of your parts or them not knowing how to run their own shop correctly. You compare your car based on a personal opinion and circle track races. So much more factors in than just pure engine power. After reading how you talk about other people on here i would hate to meet you in person.
Perhaps what you should do it read how some people talked to me in other threads regarding my build and iron heads vs aluminum heads in general. After that, you'll see the basis for what ever attitude you detect.
If you look back thru this thread, you'll see some trolls have already been banned. I'm out of patience. I drive a stock Fiero Formula EVERY DAY. I also have a 4.9+Allante Fiero that dyno'd at 17X rwhp and 265 ft*lbs and this car would stomp that car (1.5 - 2 seconds faster on the same track). All I have here is internet warriors telling me my car makes no power.
[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 07-15-2013).]
To me it does, you pulled wrong information out of your hat to use in a debate. Like the "221hp" figure on page 11.
The results are close to what I figured, even on a pre-loaded dyno. Id be interested in trap speeds if you ever ran it in the Q, my guess would be ~90mph thru the eyes
Go argue with the Mustang owner then. If a Fiero weighs 2/3 of that guy's Mustang, other than the launch we seemed equal in power to weight, you do the math. Funny how that ~220 # keeps popping up..
[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 07-15-2013).]
Go argue with the Mustang owner then. If a Fiero weighs 2/3 of that guy's Mustang, other than the launch we seemed equal in power to weight, you do the math. Funny how that ~220 # keeps popping up..
Hurray! And it seems it was a 1999 Cobra (curb weight 3375). Anyone who thinks his power:weight ratio is significantly different from mine is crazy: @3:05 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OA0m-O8YLc0 Anyone who watches the whole event and thinks I'm making 149 rwhp is crazier.
From 1999-2003, I posted 4 dynos. 3 of them were 3.4 rebuild and one was a bone stock 88GT with 100k. The stock 2.8 did 112 rwhp. The 3 3.4's read as follows: 142/203 (Crane CompuCam 2030) 146.3/201 (H242 cam) 149.6/199 (H260 cam)
So I think I know what 149 rwhp feels like. I also used to own a 1997 6 Speed Corvette. You guys are talk to me like I don't know what horsepower is. Dynos are subjective and you can only compare 2 cars on the same dyno and on the same day or at the track.
And I only posted this bogus dyno because I was asked to post this bogus dyno or gawd forbid the trolls accuse me of hiding something. If you can't figure out it's a bogus dyno - that the scaling is way off, I can't help you. I have video of me snapping 2 axles on 2 different occasions when I was running the 187/249 combo. On once of those occasions it was the bearing and axle at the same time thru the same line. On the other it was the Cobalt SS end ... which is supposed to be stronger than the Fiero end. Since then, I've kept my launches ~3k rpm.
[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 07-15-2013).]
Relax Lou, we are on your side! It's like a family, we argue and stuff but at the end we will be on your side when you need us. Just chill and rethink how to re-gain your power back and when you do we'll be as excited as you.
Relax Lou, we are on your side! It's like a family, we argue and stuff but at the end we will be on your side when you need us. Just chill and rethink how to re-gain your power back and when you do we'll be as excited as you.
Rei Moloon
In 1999, I was running 142/203 - I had handling problems like I did against that Mustang and lost to a stock 1997 Firebird. I did a ~23 second lap. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7FNo3L7dM8 (forward to 3:00) I don't knock 3+ seconds off my lap time with a 7hp gain and 36 ft*lbs LOSS running way heavier wheels and larger...
[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 07-15-2013).]
In these 1 lap shootouts you have to run high tire pressures so they can come up to temperature fast or run a very soft compound. Also your trunk is close and that steel manifold you have under there is heat soaking and killing your performance. That is why my trunk is halfway cut, so the heat can go out without heat soaking the intake. What kind of swaybars are you running? Spring rate?
In these 1 lap shootouts you have to run high tire pressures so they can come up to temperature fast or run a very soft compound. Also your trunk is close and that steel manifold you have under there is heat soaking and killing your performance. That is why my trunk is halfway cut, so the heat can go out without heat soaking the intake. What kind of swaybars are you running? Spring rate?
I'm just running Fiero Store sway bars...and for springs, I don't remember what I got with the original HELD kit. Handling is generally not my problem unless something has critically failed like a month and a half ago when my right rear wheel bearing wore out.
I know I can cut out some weight but i'm still entertaining making this a kit car once I finally get the 1st place trophy and retiring it from racing.
I am limited to 100 tread wear on the tires. I'm running Nitto 275/40/17 555R's on the back and 255/40/16 BFG G-Force on the front. I may actually reverse those to get a smaller diameter wheel on the back again to get my rpms a little higher. My diameter is 25" when stock is around 23.7" so that is hurting me a little...
[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 07-15-2013).]
I have read the other aluminum vs iron threads and i follow this one as well. I believe with the majority that the aluminum head and intake are superior to the old iron. I would like to see you prove this wrong because keeping the engine looking stock but gaining hp would be awesome. I think you can go another route instead of all the negativety and ignore the comments and shut them up with cold hard facts. With PROVEN data not an opinion or estimate.
I have read the other aluminum vs iron threads and i follow this one as well. I believe with the majority that the aluminum head and intake are superior to the old iron. I would like to see you prove this wrong because keeping the engine looking stock but gaining hp would be awesome. I think you can go another route instead of all the negativety and ignore the comments and shut them up with cold hard facts. With PROVEN data not an opinion or estimate.
What's proven is that I did a 23.x second lap with 142/203. I did a 21.x second lap with 175/265 (4.9) and I've done a 19.x with this car. That is PROVEN. Dyno #'s are subjective. Flow #'s are subjective. Gaining a full second on this track is no different than gaining a second on the 1/4 mile. Every subsequent second takes more and more HP to get there. If it took 30hp to drop 2 seconds, why is it hard to understand that despite over-size heavy wheels, I gained almost another 2 seconds? If anything these wheels are bogging my launches and not letting my RPM go as high as they should since it's hurting my effective gear ratios.
I've had killer launches with smaller wheels. When I went to the larger wheels, I started having "bogged launches".
I believe I have an event from 2007 or 2008 on youtube where you can see 4 races from the same day and I was running a turbo 3.1 with 8psi. When cold the motor would make something like 225hp as it got hot it would go down to ~180 hp. My lap times followed from 19s to 21s as it heated up...and were directly related to my hp and my lap times increased every round. It's actually what made me go away from turbos in the first place. Inconsistency.
[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 07-16-2013).]
I'm just running Fiero Store sway bars...and for springs, I don't remember what I got with the original HELD kit. Handling is generally not my problem unless something has critically failed like a month and a half ago when my right rear wheel b I am limited to 100 tread wear on the tires. I'm running Nitto 275/40/17 555R's on the back and 255/40/16 BFG G-Force on the front. I may actually reverse those to get a smaller diameter wheel on the back again to get my rpms a little higher. My diameter is 25" when stock is around 23.7" so that is hurting me a little...
I've seen in your video where you go in too hot at the last corner and the back end goes around, typical of a mid-engine car behavior. I've done that many times at track days. That is because side to side weight transfer is not ideal.
The ideal set up will allow you to go into a turn as hot as possible and then just let off and let the car roll through the turn, then at the middle of the turn start to apply the power progressively. If you do go beyond the available grip, the ideal set up will allow you to recover without loosing to much time and you will have total control of the recovery. To give you an idea, you are running about 220-250 sway bar rates. I'm running 546 front and 494 rear.
My car is set up that way, it does not matter how I throw it through a turn I can always recover and the result usually is an under control 4 wheel drift.
If you want to get that trophy, invest in a good set of sway bars, like the HHP sway bars. I made my own based on the same principle, Nextel Cup/Craftman Truck race swaybars. And let me tell you, it is by far the best performance add on to my car. Not everything is power, and the fact that you did good laps one day and crappy laps other days it's not just because power. Other parameters like track temp, air temp, humidity, drive's mood and much more stuff affect the way a car react.
[This message has been edited by La fiera (edited 07-19-2013).]
I've seen in your video where you go in too hot at the last corner and the back end goes around, typical of a mid-engine car behavior. I've done that many times at track days. That is because side to side weight transfer is not ideal.
The ideal set up will allow you to go into a turn as hot as possible and then just let off and let the car roll through the turn, then at the middle of the turn start to apply the power progressively. If you do go beyond the available grip, the ideal set up will allow you to recover without loosing to much time and you will have total control of the recovery. To give you an idea, you are running about 220-250 sway bar rates. I'm running 546 front and 494 rear.
My car is set up that way, it does not matter how I throw it through a turn I can always recover and the result usually is an under control 4 wheel drift.
If you want to get that trophy, invest in a good set of sway bars, like the HHP sway bars. I made my own based on the same principle, Nextel Cup/Craftman Truck race swaybars. And let me tell you, it is by far the best performance add on to my car. Not everything is power, and the fact that you did good laps one day and crappy laps other days it's not just because power. Other parameters like track temp, air temp, humidity, drive's mood and much more stuff affect the way a car react.
The issue there was that my right rear wheel bearing was worn out and my wheel wobbled. Other than that, I have the HELD bump-steer correction kit and I don't oversteer. In the video from a few weeks ago, I was able to push thru the turn but going into it, I thought the Mazda was going to hit me so I wiggled my steering wheel a little and I ended up wider in that turn than I wanted to be. That's the real reason he beat me by 1.5 lengths.
Oh wait! Is that me in 2003 doing 12 runs on a dyno in one day and making 149.8 HP from a 3.4 with an H260 cam, stock compression and stock diameter exhaust?
Excuse me? what work? I threw some money at a machinist. I did no work. You wanna see "work", look at the guy (masospaghetti) doing a full 3500 swap. NOW THAT'S WORK!
Yup... I follow his thread too...
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Besides, wasn't it the ALUMINUM head camp who claimed superiority, where as all I've ever claimed is equality given the dynamics of displacement? (IE you don't have enough cubes to benefit from ported GEN3 heads...) Sorry, but it's me who is still laughing inside. Remember, I'm still not ideally tuned...though I doubt my peak will improve - I have a lot of bottom end power to recover...
That's why port work and a cam done on a 3500 can put down 275WHP with similar displacement (3387cc vs. 3498cc)... There is quite a bit more torque under the curve in this pic than yours, scaled properly or not... not enough 'cubes' indeed.
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This looks like the cam for me: http://wot-tech.com/shop/gm...mshaft/prod_242.html ...but that won't be in the cards until next year...still debating a turbo for next year since picking up a mere 30-45 hp is not going to be enough to overcome the top 2 cars consistently.
Glad I could help find something you approve of... considering 82-T/A [At Work] pointed you in the same direction earlier and you claimed you couldn't tell if they were roller cams or not. The 3500 is a 200hp engine stock and that cam on an otherwise stock 3500 is worth about ~30hp alone.
Hee hee here's a blast from the past... circa 2000: 3.4 Dyno results
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Originally posted by lou_dias: No you won't get 200hp unless you use the aluminum Gen ][ heads and a roller cam. Basically, you want to soup up the minvan engine. I've stated this many times. SFI and aluminum heads are the way to go with the 3.4. even all of today's V8's have aluminum heads...roller cams and higher compression and with SFI, you get better air fuel control. you'll get 20 horses more out of the aluminum head minivan 3.4 than the cast iron 3.4 camaro engine. Associated Auto sells a minivan kit for like $500... Don't get me wrong, the torque is great. But I'm souped up to the max and my little brother's STOCK LS1 made OVER DOUBLE (301hp)my HP with only 70% more cubic inches. His friend's stock RAM AIR made 324 hp on the dyno. Torque numbers matched up fairly even when comparing cubic inches to ft-lbs of torque on both engines.
Don't get me wrong, the torque is great. But...
Sigh... just build the engine Lou. Be happy with it for what it is and stop trying to make it something that it isn't. La Fiera has awesome work done on his 2.9, posted a 172whp dyno and a video of him having a blast at the track. Gets nothing but praise.
You seem revel in people telling you that you can't do something, perhaps that's what drives you. If that's the case, keep at it. Let's see what you got!
[This message has been edited by carbon (edited 07-16-2013).]
Originally posted by lou_dias: No you won't get 200hp unless you use the aluminum Gen ][ heads and a roller cam. Basically, you want to soup up the minvan engine. I've stated this many times. SFI and aluminum heads are the way to go with the 3.4. even all of today's V8's have aluminum heads...roller cams and higher compression and with SFI, you get better air fuel control. you'll get 20 horses more out of the aluminum head minivan 3.4 than the cast iron 3.4 camaro engine. Associated Auto sells a minivan kit for like $500... Don't get me wrong, the torque is great. But I'm souped up to the max and my little brother's STOCK LS1 made OVER DOUBLE (301hp)my HP with only 70% more cubic inches. His friend's stock RAM AIR made 324 hp on the dyno. Torque numbers matched up fairly even when comparing cubic inches to ft-lbs of torque on both engines.
All I know is that today's aluminum heads produce more power than yesterday's iron heads. That's what the Fiero heads are: yesterday's technology. I think the only way we'll know the answer to which is really better is by having a set of iron heads identical to the aluminum heads and testing them in real world applications. Don't forget. The aluminum heads have the heart-shaped combusition chambers and splayed valves to improved fuel combustion. One point about the heat. An aluminum engine can be kept cooler. That means you can probably fill it with more air+fuel. What happens in the combustion chambers happens so fast that I don't think it matters much there what the material is and wasted heat being transferred into the heads is going to be negligable. The alminum heads would have a bigger explosion due to having more air in there anyway. That's just my 2 cents. Also, I've driven a Cavalier 3.1 with the getrag 5 speed...it has aluminum heads and it felt stronger than my 3.4 GT all day long. It was an '89 so I think the axle gear was the same since our speeds in each gear matched up to our RPM... Real world is what counts, not just they physics of one aspect of the process.
what happend to ya LOU?!
[This message has been edited by sleevePAPA (edited 07-16-2013).]
I learned the truth rather than listening to word of mouth. I used to believe that until Orief built 2 pushrod 3.4's that made over 200 hp.
If you bothered to read the whole thread, I also mapped out how much power I would/cold make with my next engine. When I posted dynos of 172 and 187 RWHP from THIS engine (aka the next engine mentioned in that thread) - I proved myself right.
[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 07-16-2013).]
Sigh... just build the engine Lou. Be happy with it for what it is and stop trying to make it something that it isn't. La Fiera has awesome work done on his 2.9, posted a 172whp dyno and a video of him having a blast at the track. Gets nothing but praise.
You seem revel in people telling you that you can't do something, perhaps that's what drives you. If that's the case, keep at it. Let's see what you got!
If that's what you want me to do then why do you keep trolling a thread about MY engine trying to ram useless information about HEADS NOT ON MY ENGINE?
Perhaps when TROLLS like you stop interjecting into MY thread with OT talk...then I can get praise for TAKING 2nd PLACE 1.5 months ago...eh?
Since you like reposting USELESS information, why don't I repost me holding my trophy along with the girl who painted the Slayer emblem on my car:
and here it is in my house:
What's your motor/car done for you with those SUPER DUPER AL heads? Actually, don't bother answering that as I really don't care...
[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 07-16-2013).]
You brought up heads that will never go on your engine... you maxed out some iron heads and say you reached the bottom of the aluminum head range... good luck with your tuning.
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Posted by lou_dias which is completely in line with the best I've seen from a 3400 AL heads on a stock cam...
Originally posted by carbon: You brought up heads that will never go on your engine... you maxed out some iron heads and say you reached the bottom of the aluminum head range... good luck with your tuning. Have fun with your build.
Nice excuse.
Here's GM's 'dyno':
I am running the exact same cam and peaked at the exact same point. This means my ported heads are not a limitation when compared to GEN3 LA1 engine. Obviously dyno scales vary from dyno to dyno. If my peaks match at the advertised RPM, then I'm not restricted on exhaust or intake. Even my peak torque was at 4000 RPM. The CAM is my current restriction, not heads like you wish it to be. My torque below 3200 rpm should return with the reprogramming I did tonight. What I took from that bogus dyno was my a/f ratio and the shape of the curves- it completely explains my bogged launches. That's what's important. I will do another dyno run at a Dynojet shop soon to see how the curve changes. The dyno operator of this most recent dyno claims that the Dynojet down the road should report 13% higher #'s. If he's correct, I should post a dyno with a top hp of ~168 rwhp. We'll see what actually happens...
It's kind of funny. When you remove the intake neck restriction starting at 4100 rpm and extend my 187/249 dyno to peak at 5200 rpm, my HP works out to ~220...must be another co-incidence...
[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 07-16-2013).]
You think I'm here cheering for you to fail somehow? I am genuinely interested to see what your build will do... but instead of just saying the dyno was FUBAR, you went off on your speculations about being just as good as aluminum thing again if you scaled this or assumed that...
I'm using DIS right now. I converted from Fiero ECM and intake to DIS w/'7730 + Trueleo intake.
For the record, this was on a "safe" Darth tune, pig rich and before I figured out I wasn't running enough octane. This is where I'm going tomorrow with my own tune and plenty of octane. Although I am going from 255/40/16x8 to 275/40/17x9 tires/wheels...
[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 07-17-2013).]
For the record, this was on a "safe" Darth tune, pig rich and before I figured out I wasn't running enough octane. This is where I'm going tomorrow with my own tune and plenty of octane.
I've always used 93 octane in every dyno session and track session. Last track day I used 112 and that engine was singing! She loved it. I could tell the difference in responsiveness and crispy clean RPM.
Wait a minute... you're still using the stock 3400 camshaft? You really need to fix that, ASAP!
Yep. That issue won't be tackled until after this racing season... Remember, I have told people that just switching to the 3400 block was a huge free cam upgrade over 95% of the available non-roller cams for Fieros... Also remember that Fiero engines (iron heads) are generally limited to .510" lift where as the dished pistons of AL heads allow for higher lift. With the domed shape of the 3.4 TDC pistons I'm using, I may be limited below .510" lift...
[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 07-17-2013).]
I've always used 93 octane in every dyno session and track session. Last track day I used 112 and that engine was singing! She loved it. I could tell the difference in responsiveness and crispy clean RPM.
What compression ratio are you running? I'm at 9.9x:1 ... I didn't have very advanced timing on the graph that reads 158/195. Rich and with poor timing and not enough octane...pinging like a mo-fo. The dyno I hopefully get to do today will be a nice comparison since it's the same dyno shop.
Well today's run was 164.6/203...basically the 6 hp /8 torque gain is the difference in the power pulley and my tuning is doing nothing. I'm suspecting my injector voltages need to be tweaked for the Mustang injectors. It's still way too rich. My a/f didn't change much other than lean out a bit too much after 4400 rpm... Dyno operator thinks I can gain another 8 hp if I can get the a/f correct.
Peak torque looks to be 3750 and peak hp 4800... Quite different than the other dyno...however my retune did put me to lean after 4400 rpm...
[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 07-17-2013).]
What compression ratio are you running? I'm at 9.9x:1 ... I didn't have very advanced timing on the graph that reads 158/195. Rich and with poor timing and not enough octane...pinging like a mo-fo. The dyno I hopefully get to do today will be a nice comparison since it's the same dyno shop.
I don't remember but I shaved the block .005 an the head was also shaved. Using stock bottom end with a .040 over bore replacement pistons.. I don't run high octane because of compression, I run it because unlike the kind of racing you do, I run for at lest 20 minutes on full power under extreme conditions and very high track temperatures.
I wonder if by posting 3 dynos from 3 different shops if anyone's learned anything about dynos yet... FYI under 10:1 compression, a motor will not produce more than 1 ft*lbs per cubic inch. I'd most likely have posted something like 202/249 right now on the dyno I originally did 187/249, (so @Carbon: take your 275/249 3500 dyno with the same grain of salt you take my 187/249 dyno...and my 149/167 dyno) . It all depends on the calibration. Dynojets are 'fairly' standard. Mustang dynos are wildly different. You can't compare 2 cars on 2 different dynos. This is why track times are king and dynos are just for tuning. Dynos are RELATIVE.
To give everyone a better idea of how much power I'm making, I'd have to bring my stock Formula to the shop and see what power it produces on THAT dyno. At that point I'd just be throwing money away to satisfy trolls.. I'd also have to take time off from work again since other than the 'low' dyno shop, these other shops are M-F/9-5 shops.
[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 07-18-2013).]
I follow his thread too...
The 3500 is a 200hp engine stock and that cam on an otherwise stock 3500 is worth about ~30hp alone.
