I didn't catch that. Can you still put a timing light on it? It's hard to imagine the intake manifold did that. The cam is good for at least 185hp and I'm pretty sure you have headers already. Keeep your head up. First time I dyno's my 3900 it was exactly the same as my old 3400.
I'm surprised no else has brought this up. Comparing results between different Dynos is basically useless. Certain types of Dyno are known to read high, I think Mustang is known for this. Even the same type of Dyno can read different although the variance should be smaller. Hot Rod did an article where they had the same car Dynoed at several shops on the same day. See:
I could totally see a lot of my lost power returning just from changing 10:1 to 12:1. I have spoke with 2 different professional tuners and they all tune non-boosted cars to 13:1 yet the tuner I've been dealing with seems to idolize a philosophy of richer is better. I'm done with that. If you have to run richer to not blow up, then you need better parts that won't blow up, not a "safer" tune. All tunes should be for performance. WOT is for performance. If a part fails, the tune does not matter. All a richer tune does is put more fuel in your oil and ruin your bearings and cost you more money.
I could totally see a lot of my lost power returning just from changing 10:1 to 12:1. I have spoke with 2 different professional tuners and they all tune non-boosted cars to 13:1 yet the tuner I've been dealing with seems to idolize a philosophy of richer is better. I'm done with that. If you have to run richer to not blow up, then you need better parts that won't blow up, not a "safer" tune. All tunes should be for performance. WOT is for performance. If a part fails, the tune does not matter. All a richer tune does is put more fuel in your oil and ruin your bearings and cost you more money.
Oh and my ass-o-meter also tells me the torque is not there. My 4.9 dynoed at 172/265 at this shop and this car used to feel superior in hp and close in tq but definitely does not now...and this dyno shows it.
I could totally see a lot of my lost power returning just from changing 10:1 to 12:1. I have spoke with 2 different professional tuners and they all tune non-boosted cars to 13:1 yet the tuner I've been dealing with seems to idolize a philosophy of richer is better. I'm done with that. If you have to run richer to not blow up, then you need better parts that won't blow up, not a "safer" tune. All tunes should be for performance. WOT is for performance. If a part fails, the tune does not matter. All a richer tune does is put more fuel in your oil and ruin your bearings and cost you more money.
I've never read anything suggesting less than 12:1 AFR on a naturally aspirated engine and some boosted street cars are run as high as 12.5:1 with moderate boost, going lower as the boost pressure increases towards double digits where things get hotter and experience more stress.
Have you hooked up tunerpro to see what the setting are you don't have to change anything just get an idea what might be wrong.Take some logs so when you get the chip burned Ryan has more info to go off of. Maybe post some up here and someone can give some insight.
Well, driving last night, something in the rear driver's side wheel bearing or axle failed. Enough frictional heat was generated to melt the inner part of the wheel-well cover. I wonder if this friction was present during the dyno... This will be the 3rd time that this area has failed. Part of the problem my be the clearance issues with the axle and the HELD bump-steer correctional control arm...
Something is really off that's too rich and your power is too low for those mods. the run bellow was done on an almost stock 3.4 and you can see the mid and top-end gains. It could be something as simple as a faulty MAT sensor screwing up your A/F ratio. I've seen on do that on our wideband. Try putting a stock chip back in and driving it. The dyno run below was made with a stock chip it will let you rev it past 5.5K.
[This message has been edited by Francis T (edited 05-23-2012).]
Originally posted by joshua riedl: I killed an autozone rear bearing pretty quick. Rockauto has timkens for a reasonable price.
I'm using HELD rear bearings with the 4.75" bolt pattern... I'm going to look into switching over to Pontiac 6000 stuff with the Blazer S10 4x4 front bearings... This HELD/RAYNE/whatever stuff has been poorly engineered...
Something is really off that's too rich and your power is too low for those mods. the run bellow was done on an almost stock 3.4 and you can see the mid and top-end gains. It could be something as simple as a faulty MAT sensor screwing up your A/F ratio. I've seen on do that on our wideband. Try putting a stock chip back in and driving it. The dyno run below was made with a stock chip it will let you rev it past 5.5K.
I did make more power with the Fiero ECM, but at the same time I put on your intake, I did a '7730 + DIS conversion. So I finally bought a burner and am doing some of my own tuning and reading alot. I've already burned myself a chip to improve that but the car will be out of commission for a few weeks (story of my life)...
Well, after buying a chip burner from Moates.net and using Tuner Pro RT to do my own tuning, I believe I've gotten alot of horsepower back. I also used some octane booster additive and the car runs much better when hot now as well. I am very please with my initial results. I don't have a dyno yet but I do have this:
Apparently, the HELD kit will still produce some oversteer at an extreme... :/ My launches sucked, I guess 3000rpm is where its at. Was trying to go lower than last month to reduce tire spin...
Better footage:
[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 08-08-2012).]
Originally posted by Joseph Upson: Nice close run, I hate that track though.
Yeah, it's not in the best condition but it's only 10 minutes away.
Actaully, I think the transmission switched power wheels on me as I went into the roll in turn 3. Didn't have time to react and I was within 2 feet of him. He also admitted to his car under-steering a bit. Poop happens. I need to get to a dyno, the car is running good with my personal tune.
[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 08-07-2012).]
I got to clear out the garage (now that I have one) and bring the car in and really evaluate the damage. I planned on putting vertical doors on this car but now am reconsidering since it may continue to get beat up at the track. Plus those will actually add weight to the car...
Time to consider some weight savings such as: removing speakers and sub-woofer removing passenger side mirror replacing leather seats with speakers in them with old 87 grey cloth seats...
My car has always been fully loaded unlike alot of the cars I compete against. I'd also like to get the Norm's Fiberglass hood to reduce the weight further.
Basically, the engine is still in great shape, that I can tell so my other option to increase my speed is weight reduction.
Just out of curiosity, is there a particular reason why you used self-aligning rocker arms? The engine already has pushrod guide plates. I was under the impression that the two should not be mixed.
Should this motor ever fail, I'm going to see if I can use Ford 5.78" connecting rods. To offset any clearance issues, I am going to use the thicker 3400 gasket this time. It's .060" vs. the 3.4's .030". Now that still leaves .050" unaccounted for. My thoughts are on taking the 3.4 TDC pistons and having .050" shaved off the top. If it's easier to shave .080", then I will stick with the 3.4 gasket.
My goal is to get closer to the 1.75 golden ratio and improve my power in the 5000-5500 rpm band range. Using the 5.78" Ford rods, I will be at 1.746 compared to the stock 1.72. It's not much of a difference but a little bit of power over a couple of hundred RPM on the top end is all that is holding me back.
If the Ford rods prove incompatible, then I may get a custom set built (http://www.rrconnectingrods.com) at the precise 5.7925" and shave the TDC pistons .0925" instead. My compression ratio should still go up slightly since the TDC pistons are domed with valve reliefs and by shaving them flatter to maintain clearance, I'm loosing volume slower than I'm losing height. The extra dwell time near TDC will help with pinging.
[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 12-19-2012).]
Use 6" small journal Chevy rods with custom pistons. That will get you a 1.16"ish compression height.
There is no "ideal" ratio.
If you want to make power, go to aluminum heads.
Well, half the fun is mixing and matching off the shelf parts. I think my whole point about the ideal ratio is what one of the articles I said linked: when certain options are limited (ie stroke, heads, etc..) then you optimize what you can. In your statements, you are not limiting your engine build in any engine manner where as I am specifically talking about the engines available to us from the cars we buy. So I am saying "There is no ideal ratio when your options are unlimited." In the real world, we make the best of what's actually available.
I may replace my 4.9 with a 3500 when it finally dies but in the meantime with my race car, I will be changing as few parts as possible. Changing to aluminum heads means changing alot of other things too. I want to just rebuild this block, get new rods and off the shelf TDC pistons. I'm currently .020" over bored. I can still go to .040 or .060 on the next rebuild.
Another mod I might do for the next racing season is going from a cast iron Trueleo intake to an aluminum one. Francis gaveme a stock S curve for the neck even though I told him I was going to DIS. Right now it's preventing me from running an air filter as the deck lid hinge is right infront of my L98 throttle body. I need it to come out, then turn right 45 degrees and aim down to where the stock filter housing used to be.
You can see how that air tube gets bent when the lid comes down... :/
[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 12-19-2012).]
cast iron? i think thats DOM steel welded together. all the money you would spend installing an aluminum intake you could easily swap to a 3400/3500 topend and make another 30hp over the restrictive iron heads.
cast iron? i think thats DOM steel welded together. all the money you would spend installing an aluminum intake you could easily swap to a 3400/3500 topend and make another 30hp over the restrictive iron heads.
Well, my heads aren't that restrictive. I've had them ported and polished to be close to Falconer heads, which have supported 275 hp. I haven't done a dyno recently since I started doing my own tuning but I can tell you I'm making more than the 187rwhp that I made when I was running the Fiero intake and 57mm throttle body... As you can see, I easily keep up with a modified WRX:
the video really doesnt prove anything. falconer heads? one fact remains, GenIII heads>irons, any day of the week. id like to see the ported irons outflow untouched 3x00 heads lol. easy to get to 275hp with boost
Originally posted by 34blazer660: the video really doesnt prove anything. falconer heads? one fact remains, GenIII heads>irons, any day of the week. id like to see the ported irons outflow untouched 3x00 heads lol. easy to get to 275hp with boost
GM built a 2.8 with 14:1 compression with iron heads ported by Falconer that put down 275 hp. This is a known fact. In stock trim, the aluminum heads outflow iron heads. However, a proper port and polish can accomplish much. You say the video doesn't prove anything, well a bone stock WRX can do the 1/4 between 14.0-14.7 seconds. I know the guy in the video is not stock, but not heavily over-boosted either. Another example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hP-x76mXHNY he had a killer launch, I didn't have my best launch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yg4TPeitJBU last year he had a bad launch and I had a good launch and I beat him from the outside lane
Now I'm not claiming to be a 12.x second NA 3.4... I'm not claiming to be a 13 second NA 3.4...I'm not claiming anything other than the fact that these cars who are proven fast cars are not embarrassing me in any sense of the word.
Look here at about 13:35 and you'll see me go against a modified Ford Lightning. I babied it in the 1st round because I smoked him off the line...until I saw him next to me. In round 2 I almost stalled at the launch but then didn't let off. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLidp-lIQpM
Say what you will about aluminum vs iron heads, all I know is I can't complain...
Did someone say high compression? Do it. I'll never cripple another motor I build with stock compression specs if I can help it. That's cheap and effective performance improvement if anything is.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 12-20-2012).]
GM built a 2.8 with 14:1 compression with iron heads ported by Falconer that put down 275 hp. This is a known fact. In stock trim, the aluminum heads outflow iron heads. However, a proper port and polish can accomplish much. You say the video doesn't prove anything, well a bone stock WRX can do the 1/4 between 14.0-14.7 seconds. I know the guy in the video is not stock, but not heavily over-boosted either. Another example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hP-x76mXHNY he had a killer launch, I didn't have my best launch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yg4TPeitJBU last year he had a bad launch and I had a good launch and I beat him from the outside lane
Now I'm not claiming to be a 12.x second NA 3.4... I'm not claiming to be a 13 second NA 3.4...I'm not claiming anything other than the fact that these cars who are proven fast cars are not embarrassing me in any sense of the word.
Look here at about 13:35 and you'll see me go against a modified Ford Lightning. I babied it in the 1st round because I smoked him off the line...until I saw him next to me. In round 2 I almost stalled at the launch but then didn't let off. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLidp-lIQpM
Say what you will about aluminum vs iron heads, all I know is I can't complain...
wow 14:1 compression, thats crazy for the street lol. im sure it put down some power, probably really good torque with the compression, of course. im also sure reworked irons will flow way more than stock, which is good for a mild street build. iirc, a little bowl work and some light polishing on my irons(from weber racing), gained ~30 cfm over stock numbers. peak flow on the intake was somewhere around 180 cfm on the intake at .500 lift. once i went in and port matched and opened up the entry, im sure its around 190ish cfm. either way the Gen III heads are far superior due to the revised ports and canted valves. a member on v6z24.com built an LX9 with ported heads, tuned, cammed, etc, put down 275whp thru the getrag. thats around 315 at the crank N/A. if you had a similar setup you would be hard to catch in the class you race in. youre already most of the way their with the 3400 bottom end, DIS and 7730. even marsman put down 225ish WHP with his junkyard N/A 3400. once you decide you want more power, there are more options out there for you.
Like I said, my last good dyno was with the Fiero intake and that did 187...I should be over 200 with the Trueleo intake, just don't have a dyno yet because the car is awaiting a frame-straightening from the collision with the Ford Lightning.
The other factor in this is I don't want to spin this motor past 6000rpm. I like the torquey nature of it. Right now my clutch dumps are at 3000rpm. I need to add a bit more timing from 3000rpm and below because I had pulled timing when I had a bad tune from Darth. I've since realized that with my current 9.85:1 compression, that super unleaded isn't good enough and now add octane booster but I never added the timing back from when I was detonating like crazy. If I drop the clutch marginally above 3000, I launch perfect, if it's just below, I bog down to 1000RPM and you can see this in some of my launches.
I think going to ported aluminum heads I may lose more bottom end and hurt my launches....which are critical on this type of race.
