Just in case anyone is looking for this information:
F40 transmission fluid: GM part # is 88862472 and I purchased 3 quarts from www.CrateEngineDepot.com for $72.70 shipped. The fill capacity was revised from 3 liters to 2.2 - 2.3 liters.
The fluid fill cap: GM part # is 22625354 and it is available from www.gmpartsgiant.com (one is in route to me, so eventually I will add a picture). Another option is to use a plug for an O2 sensor. I picked up a couple of stainless steel ones from ebay and they fit perfectly. I would recommend sliding an O-ring on it to help ensure a good seal, but they are quite plentiful.
I purchased my tranny fluid directly from GM and they gave me the same fluid that is used in the Saab 5 speed found in the Cobalt and Ion SC/Turbo cars.
Saturn Manual trans fluid 21018899, API GL4 Meets Opel's requirements for all manual transmission of all FWD and RWD passenger cars worldwide, is what it reads on the back of the bottle. Also has OPEL B0400063 on the label. What I have is in a conventional shaped 1 qt bottle used for motor oil.
The fluid level update confirms what the Saab tranny builder had stated was the solution to the shifting problem in the F40 failure thread.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 11-14-2012).]
Back to axles for a minute (I just skimmed the whole thread for axle info).
Right axle: What I understand is that the right G6 intermediate shaft and axle will work with the stock engine position as long as the outer CV joint outer end is swapped for the Fiero outer end. I am running 5x115 outer CV's that plug/play with the stock Fiero axle shafts. I @$$ume that they will be plug/play with the G6 cage swap also. Because I have the larger pattern outer CV's, I can't use the Saab axles like FieroGuru is doing, because the cage swap won't work. However, assuming that the cages can be swapped between the larger pattern outer an the G6 outer, this side should go together with no problems.
Left axle: I have not yet seen anyone confirm that there is a plug-in axle or combination of parts that works without any cutting, welding or resplining.
What is the side gear spline in the F40 vs. the side gear spline for the stock Fiero manual transmissions? That is, the spline where the axles plug into the transmission.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 11-15-2012).]
Back to axles for a minute (I just skimmed the whole thread for axle info).
Right axle: What I understand is that the right G6 intermediate shaft and axle will work with the stock engine position as long as the outer CV joint outer end is swapped for the Fiero outer end. I am running 5x115 outer CV's that plug/play with the stock Fiero axle shafts. I @$$ume that they will be plug/play with the G6 cage swap also. Because I have the larger pattern outer CV's, I can't use the Saab axles like FieroGuru is doing, because the cage swap won't work. However, assuming that the cages can be swapped between the larger pattern outer an the G6 outer, this side should go together with no problems.
Left axle: I have not yet seen anyone confirm that there is a plug-in axle or combination of parts that works without any cutting, welding or resplining.
What is the side gear spline in the F40 vs. the side gear spline for the stock Fiero manual transmissions? That is, the spline where the axles plug into the transmission.
I used the G6 DS axle on the PS of the fiero and a longer Saab intermediate shaft (female spline vs. G6 male spline). The G6 outer CV can be swapped with the manual transmission Fiero ones or with any of the 27 or larger 33 outer ends.
With the engine in the stock location, the DS axle needs to be 1" shorter than the stock fiero manual axle. The only shaft short enough is the Corsica one, but it doesn't work with stock G6 tripod components. So you are stuck with custom fabrication or resplining since you can't move the engine to the passenger side to compensate (on V8 applications).
The F40 uses 27 spline tripods into the transmission. This is the same for the F35, F40, and the FWD 5 speed autos.
I used the G6 DS axle on the PS of the fiero and a longer Saab intermediate shaft (female spline vs. G6 male spline). The G6 outer CV can be swapped with the manual transmission Fiero ones or with any of the 27 or larger 33 outer ends.
Would the G6 intermediate shaft with G6 passenger/right side axle have worked as well?
Originally posted by Will: Would the G6 intermediate shaft with G6 passenger/right side axle have worked as well?
Yes, that's what I'm using, but I believe for ease of swapping in the future it would probably be better to move the assembly to the right a little and get a set of 08 and up axles from the Turbo Cobalt. Apparently they have the same size joint ends as the F40 equipped G6 now. What's important to note here is that the 07 and below Cobalt SS axles are not standing up well against the SC version so anything with more torque than what they were designed for will probably send them to the axle grave before long.
A resplined axle is a good option for the driver side also if you want to keep the stock location of the drive train. I took that route, just make sure the shop (Moser in my case) does not cut the snap ring groove too deep. I wasn't paying attention and put the joint on before catching that mistake so now it's locked on although it can probably be pressed off shearing the little snap ring which is now eccentric in the groove.
Fieroguru pointed out in a PM that some of the G6 F40 axle shafts were upgraded to a 34 spline shaft and given the same part number. You may have seen where I discovered the 96ish Chrysler Concord has a female 27 spline tripod cup that will also fit the G6 intermediate shaft so you can use it to combine with the short shaft he mentioned to make an axle for the passenger side to work with the G6 intermediate but then again the engine would need to be moved to the right to compensate by possibly enough to allow you to use the modified stock G6 axle on the driver side.
I'll have to visit a parts store to find out for sure but one of the Dodge cars after 96 I believe, has a 27 spline male tripod that has a shorter stub than the G6 driver side stub and it may be short enough to fit properly in the passenger side of the F40 which has a shorter depth than the driver side. If that is the case the OE passenger Fiero axle could be used with a tripod swap as an option.
Yes, that's what I'm using, but I believe for ease of swapping in the future it would probably be better to move the assembly to the right a little and get a set of 08 and up axles from the Turbo Cobalt. Apparently they have the same size joint ends as the F40 equipped G6 now. What's important to note here is that the 07 and below Cobalt SS axles are not standing up well against the SC version so anything with more torque than what they were designed for will probably send them to the axle grave before long.
Turbo Cobalts have different outboard splines than SC versions.
I think it would be worthwhile to document a relative measurement of the intermediate shafts and the bellhousing location from side to side or the centerline of the cradle.
Here are my measurements: Differential to the inboard side of the passenger tripod cage housing: 17 3/4 to 17 7/8"... this is with a Saab intermediate shaft lengthen about 1 1/4", so a stock Saab intermediate shaft would have it at about 16 1/2" My exhaust is in the way from getting a better picture, but the dimension is from the flat/vertical surface on the inboard side.
Bellhousing to the centerline of the cradle: ~ 5 3/4" (7 3/8" from the inboard vertical surface of the 88 cradle rail and 19" from the passenger side - with only about 3/16" clearance between transmission and frame rail, but front/rear placement comes into play with this slightly) From a previous measurement of a stock 88/Getrag engine placement, my drivetrain is 1/2" further to the driver side than stock.
These two dimensions will help determine if an axle setup will work or be too long/short depending on components and drivetrain placement.
On the 88's you can tweak the lateral link lengths to get a factor setup to work on the passenger side, then get a custom/re-splined axle for the driver side. For example, to tuck the 10 1/2" wide wheels under the stock body, I need to pull the wheels in about 1 5/8". Since I lengthen a stock Saab intermediate shaft about 1 1/4", I should be able to just use a stock one and rework the bearing support. The Driver side will be another story and needs to be another 1 1/4" to 1 5/8" shorter, so it will have to be a custom axle.
[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 11-15-2012).]
Yes, that's what I'm using, but I believe for ease of swapping in the future it would probably be better to move the assembly to the right a little and get a set of 08 and up axles from the Turbo Cobalt. Apparently they have the same size joint ends as the F40 equipped G6 now.
What "assembly" are you talking about moving to the right? Are the turbo Cobalt and G6 right axle+intermediate shaft the same length?
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
You can swap the ends with the fiero CV to use the stock fiero wheel bearings, or use the larger wheel bearings and outer spline.
Have you or anyone verified that the large pattern 5x115 outer CV's use the same cage as the small pattern stock Fiero outers? Obviously they fit the same splines on the shaft, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the cage is the same.
Originally posted by Will: Have you or anyone verified that the large pattern 5x115 outer CV's use the same cage as the small pattern stock Fiero outers? Obviously they fit the same splines on the shaft, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the cage is the same.
The fiero manual axles already use the larger diameter CV cage. The whole CV assy from the Pontiac 6000 w/ HD brakes and 27 wheel bearing spline for the 5x115 will slide onto a manual fiero axle, but its CV housing is slightly smaller. The overall OD of the Fiero Manual housing CV is 3.668" The Pontiac 6000 with HD brakes is 3.400" with the 27 spline for the bearing.
To get a larger CV housing, you have to jump to the trucks. 82-92 S10 4x4 are 3.747 with 34 axle shaft spline and 27 spline wheel bearings (some of the G6 axles came with 34 axle shaft spline, so this might be the hot ticket, but you are limited to the 27 spline wheel bearings vs. the 33 large spline versions) 92-94 Full Size Chevy 4x4 under 7200 GVW are 4.039 with 35 axle shaft spline and large 33 spline on the wheel bearings. 92-94 Full Size Chevy 4x4 OVER 8600 GVW are 4.367 with 29 axle shaft spline and large 33 spline on the wheel bearings. 02-05 Chevy Avalanche 4.367 with 41 axle shaft spline and large 33 spline on the wheel bearings.
What "assembly" are you talking about moving to the right? Are the turbo Cobalt and G6 right axle+intermediate shaft the same length?
He is referring to moving the entire drivetrain to the passenger side to line up the differential to the off the shelf axle lengths on the Cobalt.
I have never seen anyone compare the overall lengths (intermediate + PS axle) of the cobalt and G6 axle lengths. The individual axles on the Cobalt SS are shorter. 23" compressed length (both axles use a male end tripod) vs. the 24 1/8" of the G6 Axle with male end tripod (the female end one uses the same shaft length between CV and tripod)
The fiero manual axles already use the larger diameter CV cage. The whole CV assy from the Pontiac 6000 w/ HD brakes and 27 wheel bearing spline for the 5x115 will slide onto a manual fiero axle, but its CV housing is slightly smaller. The overall OD of the Fiero Manual housing CV is 3.668" The Pontiac 6000 with HD brakes is 3.400" with the 27 spline for the bearing.
Thanks. I've had the larger pattern A-body hub carriers on my car since 2003. However, I'd swapped the outer CV joints completely and had not paid any attention to the interchangeability of the cages between the CV joints.
The U-body vans also have uprights that essentially plug/play with the 84-87 Fiero rear suspension. I haven't investigated them directly, but my understanding is that they have larger wheel bearings, thicker splined shanks on the outer CV's and thicker shanks on the pinch-bolt style ball joints than the HD A-body parts.
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru: To get a larger CV housing, you have to jump to the trucks. 82-92 S10 4x4 are 3.747 with 34 axle shaft spline and 27 spline wheel bearings (some of the G6 axles came with 34 axle shaft spline, so this might be the hot ticket, but you are limited to the 27 spline wheel bearings vs. the 33 large spline versions) 92-94 Full Size Chevy 4x4 under 7200 GVW are 4.039 with 35 axle shaft spline and large 33 spline on the wheel bearings. 92-94 Full Size Chevy 4x4 OVER 8600 GVW are 4.367 with 29 axle shaft spline and large 33 spline on the wheel bearings. 02-05 Chevy Avalanche 4.367 with 41 axle shaft spline and large 33 spline on the wheel bearings.
Interesting info, but all of that is somewhat academic, as the limitation in power handling capacity for the driveline remains the 27 spline shank in the differential side gears, which can't be upgraded.
Wow, lots of good research going on here, but its so confusing for novices like me. I hope someone figures out the easiest solution and posts it in terms even a simpleton like me can understand.
I was positive it was a metric design... But the difference between .984 x 23 spline and 1.000 x 23 spline can matter with high precision splines (e.g. a Tilton clutch)
Interesting that it's rated 50% higher than the 282, but has the same input shaft diameter.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 11-18-2012).]
Wow, lots of good research going on here, but its so confusing for novices like me. I hope someone figures out the easiest solution and posts it in terms even a simpleton like me can understand.
I've also been following this thread very closely and waiting to see what parts I should purchase so I can install my new F40 ... I presently have a 5.7L V8 installed with a Archie master kit and a 4 speed ... hope these excellent members doing this thread will be able to clue us in on what setup we'll be able to buy and install ...
bump any option for gear replacement so this could be a true close ratio trans? any replacement parts to stop the noise?
The 2007 version has different ratios for 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th to make them slightly closer, supposedly fixed the noise issue, and improved the shift quality. If you just swap the whole 2007 transmission, you lose the steep .62 6th and replace it with a .71, so mileage will suffer some, but between an 06 and 07 unit you can build something better.
I've been wanting to take an '07 G6 transmission and install the 3.91 final and 0.62 sixth from an '04 Saab transmission.
I'd like to change 1st to 2.50ish and second to 1.85ish, but that would be not only expensive, but also difficult. The expertise is out there to simply make replacement parts... HOWEVER, the dual layshaft nature of the transmission means that the 1st input gear does double duty in reverse as well. I need to take one apart to measure, but I don't think that the transmission will take a significantly taller 1st while keeping reverse... Some extra finagling (IE, adding a reverse idler and completely changing the power flow in reverse) would be necessary.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 11-14-2013).]
The transmission is still alive in the Buick although you'd have to switch out the bellhousing. Not sure of any improvements and the gear ratios still appear to be out of whack. 1st is a real let down and if you're not quick on the shift after launch it might drag your speed down a little as you're coming out of it it winds out so quick. The Buick has a 3.76 FDR option that might make second gear starts practical in the 06-07 trannies if you can keep the 2nd gear ratio.
If you go to the GM powertrain page and highlight the blacked out area that contains the specs as if you were going to copy and paste them they will show up for viewing.
If I were doing an LNF swap, I'd probably use the Ecotect pattern F40 instead of the F35... however, I still don't like the gearing for larger displacement engines...
Joseph, I have measured the distance between the inside hub faces to 57.5" in my 85GT (been stretched for Diablo body). This is an after market suspension with big brakes on it and the company that made them, is no longer in business. I did also count 27 splines on these hubs. I'm going with a 3800 Series 2 from an F-body car 96 or so. I have the F40 tranny from back in 06 when bought new with a bunch of other folks. Am just now getting to build my car and am looking for advice on the axles. I don't think I'll exceed 300 hp at a later date. As of now I won't exceed a n/a 3800 power 220-to-240-ish. With this kind of distance (57.5" face to face) and 6" of ground clearance from the bottom of the cradle @ the front suspension pivot (as it sits now) to the ground, what axles do you think I should do? Will I be lucky enough to drop something in w/o any fab?
I've got pics. Am trying to decide how to link them into here. You can go to my profile page at Google+ and see them. I'm MarkCooper sisqocracker {at} gmail {dot} com over there.
You haven't provided enough information to calculate how long your axles need to be. You have to know the distance from some point on the transmission (like the output shaft seals) to the inside knuckle face for both sides. The reason is because your transmission may be offset an inch or so to one side or the other depending on how the previous owner installed it. If you check out my build thread here you'll get a better idea what must be done to figure out how long your axles need to be. www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum3/HTML/000116-25.html Then you can search for existing axles that might meet your needs. The worst case scenario is that you need to get custom axles made, but even then, they aren't that expensive.
I was saying that I'm mating a 3800 Series 2 from an F-body car to my F40 and it's not in there yet. So I can move things around an inch either way if you already knew of some axles that would work in this situation.
Thanks for the link back to your post, reading through it now.
Don't know if you can see some pics here. Rear End ------------------ Thanks, Coop
[This message has been edited by sisqocracker (edited 04-18-2014).]
This place is a mess and I can't find my calipers just yet, but will measure the inside of the 27 splines on my wheel bearings. I know when I took the Fiero axles out of their wheel bearings (hubs) and tried to insert them into the 27's holes, there was clearance all around point to point. So the ones I have now are a lot larger than what came stock on the car. After reading through that link you supplied I'm now wondering what wheel hub that was meant to be a replacement for, and feel like i need to measure that to get a good idea.
I've checked the diameter on my hubs and it may be as big as 30mm on 27 splines at the hub. Any idea what this is equal to? All of the spline counts I'm finding in the Pontiac gear has higher count than 27 on the axle into the hub.
I've checked the diameter on my hubs and it may be as big as 30mm on 27 splines at the hub. Any idea what this is equal to? All of the spline counts I'm finding in the Pontiac gear has higher count than 27 on the axle into the hub.
Check the rear wheel bearing flange for a part # stamped into them and then google it to find the bearing application. The 27 spline was used in S10 front wheel bearings (5 x 4 3/4) as well as the mid size FWD cars from the mid 80's/early 90's - like the 89 Pontiac 6000 with the HD brakes - and had the 5 x 114.3mm pattern.
Thanks for the reply and, duh, I remember what was said earlier about the 6000HD/S10 once you said it here and scrolled back up. I'm looking on autozone's website and putting in different vehicles so I can see what looks like a combo I can use. Didn't I see on here, some place, where folks did a similar thing and found which tripots would swap with others? I am considering no jack shaft on the PS as this car won't be powerful enough for me to worry about torque steer. Say if it were to work out that I could use DS and PS of the 6000 and only have to plug in the 27's on the F40 itself and then have 6000 hardware from there out (tripot/axle/rest of it)... oh wait. The 6000 stuff doesn't have a long enough PS axle. May have to reuse the Fiero Axle then. This is going to be ugly isn't it?
Thanks too Blooz, I've gone back to your page on making up your own axle lengths and have decided this is what I'll be doing as well.
[This message has been edited by sisqocracker (edited 05-15-2014).]
Instead of modifying the 4 speed shifter to use 2 Getrag select cables, you can use an unmodified 5 speed shifter with an Isuzu shift cable and Getrag select cable (both from Rodney so you can get the small ball ends). The 5 speed shifter doesn't need any modification (except to add the simple reverse lockout) and the Isuzu shift cable is the perfect length to match the select cable and should be about 46% stronger than the select cable as well.
Isuzu shift cable running alongside the Getrag select cable:
My new shifter bracket using the Isuzu shifter cable:
Simple reverse lockout that bolts to the stock 5 speed shifter w/o any mods:
I have been running the Isuzu shift cable, 5 speed shifter, and revised shifter cable bracket in my LS4/F40 Fiero for almost 2 weeks (daily commuting with it) and it works quite well.
Excellent development work, Fieroguru. I already purchased the two select cables with the ball ends from Rodney. And I have a 4-speed shifter to modify. I so love utilizing the 5-speed shifter (in the car presently). Are these elements, cable bracket on tranny and the reverse lockout, going to be made available by you? Perhaps I may be able to exchange with Rodney my Getrag select with ball end with the Isuzu shift cable with ball end. We'll see.
Excellent development work, Fieroguru. I already purchased the two select cables with the ball ends from Rodney. And I have a 4-speed shifter to modify. I so love utilizing the 5-speed shifter (in the car presently). Are these elements, cable bracket on tranny and the reverse lockout, going to be made available by you? Perhaps I may be able to exchange with Rodney my Getrag select with ball end with the Isuzu shift cable with ball end. We'll see.
Ken
Yes, I will be offering the shift cable bracket and the 5 speed shifter reverse lockout. The first batch of parts for the bracket are already being laser cut. Once I get them back, I will spend a couple of days and fab up 10 sets of brackets/lockouts and list them for sale in the mall.
I will also offer this adjustable part that will allow those who have already modified the 4 speed shifter to run the Isuzu cable and my shifter bracket w/o having to undo the relocation of the shifter bracket on their shifter:
With the engine in the stock location, the DS axle needs to be 1" shorter than the stock fiero manual axle. The only shaft short enough is the Corsica one, but it doesn't work with stock G6 tripod components. So you are stuck with custom fabrication or resplining since you can't move the engine to the passenger side to compensate (on V8 applications).
The F40 uses 27 spline tripods into the transmission. This is the same for the F35, F40, and the FWD 5 speed autos.
I may end up moving the knuckle outboard an inch. Would the same trick of swapping the CV joint outers work with the G6 Driver's side axle?
I may end up moving the knuckle outboard an inch. Would the same trick of swapping the CV joint outers work with the G6 Driver's side axle?
On one of the first few pages, I think Joe had the G6 axles respline for the DS, so that tells me they are too long, but didn't look to see how much shorter he made them. It would be worth a look.
