Will, maybe you can help out with this; any idea what size axle the G6 6-speed is? I know the Pontiac 6000 hub is a 27 spline, it would be sweet if the G6 is the same size.
------------------ 1988 GT, 5-speed, white, beechwood leather, 3.4 DOHC installation in process. Really. I am working on it.
That will be a HUGE problem. Consider the way the Fiero tripod fits in the Fiero tulip for comparison.
For reference, splines are spec'd by diameter and spline count. The Muncie, Getrag and Isuzu use 25mm x 14 splines on their input shafts. Are you telling us that the F40 uses 25mm x 26 spline? There's also a larger 26 spline used on T56 input shafts.
What is the spline on the inner end of the G6 axles and what is the spline on the outer end of the Fiero axles?
The Fiero (and large pattern hardware such as for the 5x115 hub swap) are 440 series CV's. Any rebuilder should be able to tell you what series the G6 axles are and be a big help in figuring out what else you can use. What is the spline where the CV's plug into the transmission? Is that the same as the older transmissions?
Does Archie use custom axles for his 6 speed conversions?
It's 27 splines That picture is of the roller Tripod from the Fiero axle fitted inside the Tripod housing or plunge joint from the F40. In other words if I had one more F40 tripod housing I could take the housings off my stock axles, grind down the ends a little on the tripod roller spindles and then insert them into the F40 Tripod with the immediate issue being the Fiero rollers in a housing that calls for larger diameter rollers, so you would have a little gap between the roller and the tripod housing that might make noise when letting off the gas and then accelerating again- clunk, clunk but would be centered in the housing.
I would like to hunt down larger rollers that would close that gap some but believe it or not the guys I've talked with so far seem to be helpless to do anything, or new to the idea of mixing and matching different parts for a good fit across manufacturers. If it's GM they only speak of GM parts eventhough I have shown in this thread that Ford for example has a transmission that uses the same spline number input shaft therefore giving us another clutch disc option. If the clutch rebuilder that revealed that to me only looked amongst GM transmissions I wouldn't have found that out anytime soon.
Unless an alternative is found, at the moment the investment for making proper axles for the swap is somewhere in the vicinity of $850, 2 new axles to take apart plus 2 custom axle shafts to mate the Fiero outboard joint to the 6spd inboard joint. I can"t stand the idea of buying 2 new axles, taking them apart and having perfectly good pieces laying around with no use. I don't mean this in a malicious manner but these cars aren't being crashed fast enough for a good axle source. Maybe the new G6 6spd automatic will use the same axle, that will help a lot because it will be available in all of the vehicles that get that transmission.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 12-05-2006).]
Not going down without a fight, I just stumbled across a document with more 27 spline inboard joints than I care to mention, most important of all the Ford Ranger is one of them, the same vehicle that has a clutch disc with the matching splines to the input shaft on the F40. I'll see if I can find out anything on it shortly.
I tried to get a bulck purchase of the F40 drive shafts from the same place I'm getting the new 6 speeds. For now they are not offering anything to me, I wanted to get a buch of shafts, half shafts, bearing and possibly clutch/ flywheel assemblies.... but they said no... I'll keep on trying.
Thanks Joe
------------------ Race-Tech Automotive inc. & The Fiero Shop.
Specializing in Fiero performance: 3800 swaps, custom 3800 and N* Aluminum flywheels, big Brakes, Engine rebuild, Aftermarket wheels, Bolt on performance parts, body enhancements, used Fiero parts, custom exhaust systems. www.racetechauto.com
This is a pretty interesting read, and thanks for all the pics and descriptions.
I know that a 6-speed can be fun, however, do we know what the performance benefit is, if any?
I'm thinking about the 4-speed vs. 5-speed 1/4 mi. times and the fact that they are really close with the edge going to the 3.65 4-speed. Will the 6-speed deliver a better performing package for the work, time and $?
Just interested if we have any solid information on this.
Arn
For me, it's not about gaining an extra gear to play with. (5-gears is more than enough with a high-torque engine.) I'we been planing a 3800SC swap for sometime now, and my wories has been the Getrag i have now, would not be up for the task. The F40 trany can handle more abuse, and thats why i'm getting one. (I'm having one of the "(4)" that Fiero1Fan orderd.) If this oportunity would not have shown up, i would have gone with a 5-spd 4WD trany from a volvo 850. I'm folowing this tread with great interest. But since the chance of finding good parts to american cars here in sweden is very smal, i will probobly end up having to order costum made drive shafts. So it's not for going faster, but handeling more torque.
So far the Explorer inboard joint is a no go, it the tripod housing shaft is longer and narrower. The next step is to check for possible roller interchange for a larger roller that can replace the Fieros tripod rollers and provide the proper clearance. I found this site which has some seriously helpful axle specs for several cars however gaining access to the sample axle is wear all the trouble comes in. It has tremendous info for swap related axle changes and everyone should probably download it and keep it in a safe place.
Even with custom axles you will still need the F40s inboard joint for the correct spline array. So I'm considering another option I have considered that GM or another auto maker has actually used before (two piece inboard joint housing) and that is two short shafts about 5" long and female inboard Fiero joints. There was an issue with noise involving that configuration however as long as the parts are a good fit I doubt the Fiero will have a problem with them since unlike the usual front wheel drive car there is no wheel turning involved with the outboard joint. If I can get those done for $300 or less that's the route I'll take and stay with as long as there is no problem.
I'm still looking however I'm so pressed for time now I have to start rounding up the essential parts for my motor and tranny swap so I can get started. You guys feel free to knock yourselves out at a solution.
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:so you would have a little gap between the roller and the tripod housing that might make noise when letting off the gas and then accelerating again- clunk, clunk but would be centered in the housing.
I know what's in the picture. What I'm telling you is that what you have proposed won't work. Consider the fit of the Fiero rollers in the Fiero tulip as I said before. That combo will clatter and carry on like a worn out CV joint and eventually blow itself apart by brinelling all the needles from the constant pounding it will receive.
My approach was a bit suttle but that was part of my concern in expressing the excessive clearance and clunk, clunk on acceleration and deceleration and why I'm not goint to try it though it was tempting for a moment.
Here is my contribution to this thread. At some point you will get here. If you receive a new F40 it won't come with any instructions nor plug for fluid fill. The plug PN is 22625354 and is about $4. But it is not a dipstick. To know the right level you follow the instructions in the picture. Also there is the correct PN for the fluid. Hope you get there soon
This is a pretty interesting read, and thanks for all the pics and descriptions.
I know that a 6-speed can be fun, however, do we know what the performance benefit is, if any?
I'm thinking about the 4-speed vs. 5-speed 1/4 mi. times and the fact that they are really close with the edge going to the 3.65 4-speed. Will the 6-speed deliver a better performing package for the work, time and $?
Just interested if we have any solid information on this.
Arn
The time and effort is extensive but in practical long terms I believe a resounding yes! it's worth it for the following reasons; dependability of the stock transmission is always lurking in the mind of high torque engine owners during hard acceleration particularly when racing. When the Fiero started getting V8 transplants the V8 was not the powerhouse it is in stock form today without a good bit of aftermarket work. We now have V6 engines on naturally aspirated air with as much power if not more than the TPI 305 and 350 of the 1980s. For with the power level I intend to run dependability under repeated WOT is more important than the ease of installation of the stock option and the .62 over drive and 3.55 final drive is more important to me for gas mileage given the prices now than a more competitive gear ratio since my car is a daily driver. Further more, if your engine is powerful enough the gear ratios will be competitive no matter what they are for street use.
I have found that some of the Chrysler/Dodge vehicles have female inboard joints with the proper 27 spline pattern that would work with the planned custom short axles coming out of the trans. I have further confirmed according to the spec sheets posted earlier that the outboard chrysler joint for the Intrepid axle that I have, has the same internal parts as the heavy duty GM axle used in the Beretta, Cavalier and Sunfire, both axles have 32 splines at each end so the two different joints can be joined.
What I need now is the length of the Fiero axle shafts so that I can sort through the list for the right length axle. If what I just read is correct, the right side axle which I know is pretty thick is already a 32 splined axle going into the joints so only the inboard joint would need to be changed on the right side.
What I need now is the length of the Fiero axle shafts so that I can sort through the list for the right length axle.
Hi Joseph, you need the full lenght of just the shaft with out the ends? I can get you those lenths from end to end... do you need length of the spline's too ?
Joe
You need both of them?
------------------ Race-Tech Automotive inc. & The Fiero Shop.
Specializing in Fiero performance: 3800 swaps, custom 3800 and N* Aluminum flywheels, big Brakes, Engine rebuild, Aftermarket wheels, Bolt on performance parts, body enhancements, used Fiero parts, custom exhaust systems. www.racetechauto.com
Hi Joseph, you need the full lenght of just the shaft with out the ends? I can get you those lenths from end to end... do you need length of the spline's too ?
Joe
You need both of them?
Just the end to end length, the link I posted earlier has several axle specs but the Fiero is not in the bunch. I have a lead on a possible complete 6 spd axle but I'm waiting for a confirmation on the shaft spline number.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 12-08-2006).]
Hang in there, after further searching and consideration It is my opinion that the best and most effective way to approach the axle dilemma is to go with a custom made adaptor that will fit the GM axle parts already in production for several years. I should have them by the end of next week.
It turns out that there is an intermediate shaft involved with the G6 as well liking to that found on the Saab, my approach will eliminate that, another surprise is that the distance the inboard joint inserts into the transmission is not the same for both sides. The stock axles for the 6 spd would come to more than $700 at my cost and then a further investment trying to make the outboard joints match up in the event they have a different spline configuration and you can bet they will.
I'll post the pics of the parts when they arrive.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 12-11-2006).]
Hey Joseph, From what I've been able to read so far is all Thumbs up on your R&D. When you first posted about the clutch, did you ever see if the 3.4L DOHC 5spd clutch would fit? Motor is from the 60 degree V6 family, so flywheel should be swapable too.
Input Spline Quantity: 23 Input Shaft Diameter (in): 1.000 in. Disc Diameter (in): 9.750 in. Disc Diameter (mm): 248mm
Centerforce makes one CTF-DF40603, unfortunately the price isn't the greatest through them.
Hey Joseph, From what I've been able to read so far is all Thumbs up on your R&D. When you first posted about the clutch, did you ever see if the 3.4L DOHC 5spd clutch would fit? Motor is from the 60 degree V6 family, so flywheel should be swapable too.
Input Spline Quantity: 23 Input Shaft Diameter (in): 1.000 in. Disc Diameter (in): 9.750 in. Disc Diameter (mm): 248mm
Centerforce makes one CTF-DF40603, unfortunately the price isn't the greatest through them.
The clutch disc is not a problem, I listed earlier a source that can build a dual friction clutch disc for just over a $100 and or a strengthened pressure plate with the disc for the 6 spd flywheel for about $315. I contacted Street Dreams and they said they can make a flywheel contraption of some sort that can be used with the transmission however they would need my transmission and a clutch which I have no need to part with since I have a flywheel and clutch assembly. I'll leave that for someone else to do but will give them some dimensions for an idea that I have to see if they'll at least give an estimate.
Any clutch builder can get the right hub for the input shaft so it will not be necessary to retrofit a clutch. Given the size of the stock 6 spd disc and it's rating for over 240 lb/ft I'm going to have the dual friction disc made to use with the stock pressure plate since it's probably capable of 300 lb/ft in stock trim. The dual friction they made for my turbo 3100 that has a stock Fiero pressure plate has been holding rock solid for about four years now and it's smaller than the 6 spd clutch disc so It should be fine.
Remember the input shaft on the 6 spd is further back into the bellhousing so the flywheel needs to extend further into the bellhousing.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 12-11-2006).]
I have a question about this transmission maybe someone can answer for me. In the photo below (Credit to Alex4mula) the arrow is pointing to what appears to be a counter-weighted shift lever.
Why would it be counter-weighted? It would seem this would require more force to get the arm moving and then impact the stop harder. What would be the benefit to this?
I have a question about this transmission maybe someone can answer for me. In the photo below (Credit to Alex4mula) the arrow is pointing to what appears to be a counter-weighted shift lever.
Why would it be counter-weighted? It would seem this would require more force to get the arm moving and then impact the stop harder. What would be the benefit to this?
True. It also gives the shifter a more positive feel. Like it is snapping into gear and the driver knows that he did not miss a shift. But it also is a "spring" The shifting mechanism looks bulky and complex because it is nearly all outside of the gear case. It has a spring inside of it that pushes the shift fork up into a centering position. The spring has a stop that lets the shift fork move freely above the center position as the fork moves up and down. The heavy counter weight uses gravity to push down on the shift fork to center the gear shifter in a neutral position between 3-4. So the gear shifter is centered in a neutral position by a spring in one direction 5-6 and a counter weight in the other direction R-1-2. Without the counter weight the shifter would not be held in the center of its shift pattern and the Reverse-1-2 shift would be vague.
True. It also gives the shifter a more positive feel. Like it is snapping into gear and the driver knows that he did not miss a shift. But it also is a "spring" The shifting mechanism looks bulky and complex because it is nearly all outside of the gear case. It has a spring inside of it that pushes the shift fork up into a centering position. The spring has a stop that lets the shift fork move freely above the center position as the fork moves up and down. The heavy counter weight uses gravity to push down on the shift fork to center the gear shifter in a neutral position between 3-4. So the gear shifter is centered in a neutral position by a spring in one direction 5-6 and a counter weight in the other direction R-1-2. Without the counter weight the shifter would not be held in the center of its shift pattern and the Reverse-1-2 shift would be vague.
Whew! Thank, Rick. I'll have to read that a few more times to absorb it.
True. It also gives the shifter a more positive feel. Like it is snapping into gear and the driver knows that he did not miss a shift. But it also is a "spring" The shifting mechanism looks bulky and complex because it is nearly all outside of the gear case. It has a spring inside of it that pushes the shift fork up into a centering position. The spring has a stop that lets the shift fork move freely above the center position as the fork moves up and down. The heavy counter weight uses gravity to push down on the shift fork to center the gear shifter in a neutral position between 3-4. So the gear shifter is centered in a neutral position by a spring in one direction 5-6 and a counter weight in the other direction R-1-2. Without the counter weight the shifter would not be held in the center of its shift pattern and the Reverse-1-2 shift would be vague.
This is incorrect. The shifter is held in the 3-4 gate by balanced spring pressures. If you look more closely at the picture, you'll see that the weight moves horizontally. There is no way that the weight balances spring forces. Lots of shift mechanisms are counterweighted. This is mainly to aid the driver in sliding through synchros quickly and easily when shifting fast. When upshifting from 3rd to 4th, say, the driver develops a good bit of speed in the shift mechanism pulling the shifter out of 3rd, but there's basically no effort. The weight stores some of that energy to help get the shifter through the 4th gear synchro smoothly and quickly.
Originally posted by Will: This is incorrect. The shifter is held in the 3-4 gate by balanced spring pressures. If you look more closely at the picture, you'll see that the weight moves horizontally. There is no way that the weight balances spring forces. Lots of shift mechanisms are counterweighted. This is mainly to aid the driver in sliding through synchros quickly and easily when shifting fast. When upshifting from 3rd to 4th, say, the driver develops a good bit of speed in the shift mechanism pulling the shifter out of 3rd, but there's basically no effort. The weight stores some of that energy to help get the shifter through the 4th gear synchro smoothly and quickly.
I already have mine. That is how I know the weight holds the shift fork down in the "select" gate or side to side movement on the shift itself. Yes you are correct that the "shift" gate or forward rear ward movement at the shifter is a spring system or spring and detent ball of some type. But you can grab the shift rod and weight and effortlessly lift it up without any spring holding it in place against an inner spring. The inner spring holds the shifter fork up in the center of the 3-4 gears ( left right at the shifter) and the detent system holds the shifter fork in the center of the shift gate pattern ( forward rearward at the shifter) This way there is no need for a bias spring in the shifter assembly to center the stick in the middle of the shift gate pattern.
Ahh... I didn't realize it moved up and down with the shift shaft. While it may perform the function you described, its primary purpose is as I've described.
Ahh... I didn't realize it moved up and down with the shift shaft. While it may perform the function you described, its primary purpose is as I've described.
Any progress on what parts may be used to get this thing to work in the Fiero?
I'm waiting on my axle prototypes now which hopefully will arrive next week. I have already figured out how to adapt the stock shifter cables and since tomorrow is the start of two days off from work in a row I should have the transmission mounted to the cradle. It's slow for the moment because I'm waiting for parts I ordered to arrive and trying to figure out whether to drive 225 miles to get my engine hoist out of storage or just buy a new one from harbor freight.
I mentioned a lot of projects I performed in the past but could not show proof of because while I was away at school my computer storage box was moved and misplaced. It was found a few days ago and I thought I would post the twin turbo 3400 4 spd automatic that almost was until I had to drop the project to leave for school.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 12-21-2006).]
Aside from being in a twisted temperament state due to a strong suspicion my little nephew inspected my room and set his eyes and hands on the USB cable for my outdated digital camera and then removed and installed it in some unknown location, I'm still making progress despite the silence. Fortunately my desktop has a couple of universal memory card slots.
I'm in the process of making the mounts for the transmission which I will affirm by installing the OE axles to check the angles since the mounts on the donor cradle appear to be the same ones from the factory 20 yrs ago. As you can see I used the Getrag to make my template and then installed the F40. Since the transmission output ends are offset about 2 inches to the left on the left side and one inch to the left on the right side I'll move the tranny about 1.5 inches to the right so that the overall result will be about .5 inches positive increase toward both axles. In other words as is placed in the exact same location as the Getrag the driver axle would need to be shortened 2 inches and the passenger axle would need to be lengthened 1 inch so the move will divide the increased width of the tranny over both axles.
I was considering making the mounts to fit the small hard poly rear wheel drive transmission mount with interlocking mechanism to prevent separation but deicided to try and make it work with as much stock equipment as possible first because the fewer perishable custom parts the better as I'm finding out since GM has not made the flywheel bolts that I don't have available yet I'm stuck with hoping the guy that sold me the flywheel can find the bolts as he suggested, or buying the ford 12 point 5/8th head bolts and hoping I can grind a sockets diameter down just enough to pass through the hole in the top part of the flywheel so I can tighten them. They are 10mm x 1mm x 24 mml. It's okay for them to be a little longer but the bolt head is small and needs to be no more than a 14 mm bolt head to work without a problem.
In the mean time I have all sorts of turbo plumbing and fittings a nice big intercooler that hope to augment with water injection the axles which I hope are correct, 12 inch glass packs and the most anciously awaited 6 spd shifter that should all arrive this week but maybe not due to the holiday.
Mr. Upson: am I correct that you're going to use axle adapters?
If they work, I talked to the machinist and confirmed they wouldn't need seal surfaces because on the GM female axle the surface is on the joint, in Chrysler cars it is apparently on the axle if the example of their female inboard joint that I have is any indication. I'm just hoping that they got the correct idea of my drawing.
I'll be using two female inboard joints like the one found on the automatic. I may have a second set made at sometime to fit the Chrysler joint because it is 27 spline matching the F40 configuration and the rollers for the female joint are larger and closer to the hub/axle center for greater strength whereas the medium duty 34 spline GM joint I had the axle ends cut for have rollers that are in between size wise compared to the Chrysler and Fiero female joint. I'm using the inboard joint found on some of the GM 4spd autos.
I'll have to check again to make sure but I believe the manual trans axleshafts (not the joints) have 32 splines on the passenger side axle only and the driverside is 29 so I will have to use two passenger side joints if I'm correct and I believe I am because there was an increase in strength benefit to the configuration. The automatic uses 29 spline axle shafts on both sides if I recall correctly. I just hope the adapters were cut to the right diameter so that it fits in the transmission.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 12-25-2006).]
Apologies for asking, for you probably said this earlier, but which in board joints are you using...the ones used in numerous GM 4 speed auto applications? Thanks again, and thanks for making such a good thread
Did you have to make or buy any special pieces to connent the clutch master cylinder line from the fiero to operate the clutch slave cylinder located on the transmission?
Apologies for asking, for you probably said this earlier, but which in board joints are you using...the ones used in numerous GM 4 speed auto applications? Thanks again, and thanks for making such a good thread
I will not know for sure until my adapters arrive what the final combo will be, I've got stuff so mixed up right now. I apparently sent the Fiero female joint but from what I recall it was because there is a medium duty 34 spline female joint that uses the 32 spline roller. I opted for a configuration to use Fiero specific parts initially and then branch off to stronger options later since the F40 with the higher torque rating if it lives up to it's specs may result in more axle failures.
Did you have to make or buy any special pieces to connent the clutch master cylinder line from the fiero to operate the clutch slave cylinder located on the transmission?
I don't forsee it being a big problem yet and plan on searching the bone yard for the proper hydraulic OE line since I have the intermediate connector with bleed screw. If successful I should be able to join everything up with common NPT fittings. My focus right now is on the big stuff; axles and mounting brackets. It should all come to a head here real quickly because the car needs to be completed by the 5th of January.
Got the axles and as I expected there would be there is a problem, first of all you can never provide to much information in a scenario like this and apparently I didn't keep that in mind. The shafts were not cut to the diameter of the joint that goes into the transmission but instead to the diameter of the splined end which has a ~.030 smaller diameter so there is play in the bearing bore which would allow the joint to wobble among other things. I'm sending them back to see if they can sleeve them to the proper diameter. They are a nice piece of work.
They look nice... but you can never count on the initial prototype working perfectly. Are you sure you go the right spline counts on everything? That's a good idea, BTW.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 12-27-2006).]
Interesting indeed. Sucks that those adapters aren't ready to go, but the anticipation builds.
Mr. Upson: After this, will they be able to make copies of your axle adapters? I'm not meaning to freeload off of your experimentation or anything like that though.
They look nice... but you can never count on the initial prototype working perfectly. Are you sure you go the right spline counts on everything? That's a good idea, BTW.
They would have been near perfect if I didn't have such a nasty habit of ignoring that inner voice that suggested maybe I should be somewhat of a pest regarding my instructions. I sent an initial print that showed the axle diameter and the follow up I sent with the joints excluded that under the premise they had the initial draft and were also instructed to measure according to the provided parts. I believe what happened is that since they normally make fixed rearend axles they mistook the seal surface that I told them was not needed due to the female joint, for the bearing surface that a rear wheel axle would have and made the diameter of the shaft the same as the splined end for the transmission which is a little smaller.
It's a real bummer because I have to leave for school around the 5th so my back is really against the wall, I really don't want to do the 5 spd but it may have to be the saving grace.
Interesting indeed. Sucks that those adapters aren't ready to go, but the anticipation builds.
Mr. Upson: After this, will they be able to make copies of your axle adapters? I'm not meaning to freeload off of your experimentation or anything like that though.
This effort was to benefit all interested and considering there is only a few ways to do this I wouldn't consider it freeloading or infringing unless I went through the trouble for a patent which I have no intentions of doing. I'm looking into an extra set to have on hand for copying for anyone interested because they would need my parts to do it even though they have everything on file.
