Don't ever make a machinist guess what you mean. He will guess exactly what you mean, then do the exact opposite.
Why would you need to keep a pair on hand to copy? Just tell people the company and the job number. They can then call the company and say "I want a set of adapters like job #XXXX" and everything is cherry. What company did you use and how much did they cost?
Don't ever make a machinist guess what you mean. He will guess exactly what you mean, then do the exact opposite.
Why would you need to keep a pair on hand to copy? Just tell people the company and the job number. They can then call the company and say "I want a set of adapters like job #XXXX" and everything is cherry. What company did you use and how much did they cost?
Moser, and when I asked if they would keep the info on file they said they would but will still need hard parts to check the finished parts against, case in point is the tight fit for the transmission splined end of the axle which I didn't attempt to force the full depth into the transmission out of fear I might not be able to remove it. Despite having an example of the original joint to copy the fit was still a little off though I'm sure it would have loosened up a little with driving a few hundred miles after forcing it in. On the other hand the end for the female joint of which I sent them a male and female example of fit nice and snug.
With a second set I would have copies available to send off for someone else to have a set made as well as another set available for a second car. I'm trying to finess the matter because this is not the kind of work Moser cares to do and they have expressed that to me on more than one occassion so you can bet I puckered a little when explaining the situation upon receipt of the axles and asking if they would consider a possible remedy.
They had the necessary information but as mentioned earlier they may have perceived the seal area of the joint to be like that of the bearing area of a rear wheel axle and thought that the axle diameter in between wasn't that important. At the moment I have roughly $400 tied up in the process but expect the finished product duplicates to be around $325-350 for the pair, not that much more than one stock axle depending on where you get it from.
Don't take S#$% from them. Your money's as green as anyone else's. Once the prototyping is done, they ought to have the info on file and it shouldn't be hard to whip up a set. The customer would just need your original job number.
$5 to the person who can answer this. Can anyone give me measurements or really detailed pictures of the back of a 3800 versus the back of a 3900. IE Crank mounting and bolt positioning. Is it possible to mount the 3900 flywheel onto the 3800's?
[This message has been edited by RandomTask (edited 01-03-2007).]
$5 to the person who can answer this. Can anyone give me measurements or really detailed pictures of the back of a 3800 versus the back of a 3900. IE Crank mounting and bolt positioning. Is it possible to mount the 3900 flywheel onto the 3800's?
Just a guess, but since the 3800 is a 90° engine and the 3900 is a 60° engine, I'd say no. Different balancing requirements, etc. Can you check a Hollander exchange?
Just a guess, but since the 3800 is a 90° engine and the 3900 is a 60° engine, I'd say no. Different balancing requirements, etc. Can you check a Hollander exchange?
Less the balancing, is it possible to physically mount them?
What's the difference betwine the rear suspension of the Fiero, and the front suspension of the G6? I was thinking, if it's so hard to get the driveshafts to fit the Fiero, maybee it's easier to just go with G6 parts all the way to the wheel hub..? Is the wheelbase different on G6, if so, how much different? The parts will cost a bit, but then again, so will specialy fabricated drive shafts.
Just wondering if this is a way to even concider? (Expensive? Doable?)
$5 to the person who can answer this. Can anyone give me measurements or really detailed pictures of the back of a 3800 versus the back of a 3900. IE Crank mounting and bolt positioning. Is it possible to mount the 3900 flywheel onto the 3800's?
You can't do it, unless you have the holes in the 3800 crank filled and redrilled to the 3900 flywheel bolt pattern which is the same as all of the previous 60 degree V6s. Go back and take a good look at the pictures of the flywheel. It can't be redrilled because it is a two piece unit, the flywheel bolts are a miniature version of the caliper slide bolts except they are 6 point Allen instead of torx head. The flywheel would have to be disassembled somehow to allow redrilling after which the resulting offset of the holes in the top part of the flywheel which the bolts pass through might not allow this to occur and there is not enough metal on it to allow more to be removed without weakening it.
As for swapping the G6 driveline as an assembly, it wouldn't be practical price wise relative to the alternatives. The GTP configuration is rare as well as the supporting parts, which are quite expensive. The clutch and flywheel assembly alone is between $800-$1000 all 3 axles amount to about the same, and then the custom effort to make it connect at all the appropriate points.
I'll post some pictures of the stopping point I'm at now before long. I start clinicals next week and there are parts still in transit so unfortunately it will be at least 3 months before I have another opportunity to continue what I had hoped to have finished by the end of the week.
Hi every one... I know we are all trying to find out how to make this tranny work into our cars with the least amount of money, which meens the more help we get from everone the more we can share information with each other. since I'll be mating this tranny to a 3800 motor, I regardles make my own aluminum flywheel to fit the application. I did what Joseph did to find out the differance in flywheel thickness between fiero tranny and G6.. I took a measurment from the mounting surface of both tranny's, I found that with the G6 bearing compressed or pushed back to it's starting point I got a measurment of 82mm, doing the same with the fiero tranny with the bearing in all the way in it's rest position I got a measurment of 65mm. This tells me the flywheel needs to be 17 -18 mm thicker than a stock fiero one about 11/16". If I'm wrong with my measurment could some one please correct me.
Joe
------------------ Race-Tech Automotive inc.
Specializing in Fiero performance: 3800 swaps, custom Aluminum flywheels, Brakes, Engine's, Aftermarket Bolt on performance parts, used Fiero parts, www.racetechauto.com
Hi every one... I know we are all trying to find out how to make this tranny work into our cars with the least amount of money, which meens the more help we get from everone the more we can share information with each other. since I'll be mating this tranny to a 3800 motor, I regardles make my own aluminum flywheel to fit the application. I did what Joseph did to find out the differance in flywheel thickness between fiero tranny and G6.. I took a measurment from the mounting surface of both tranny's, I found that with the G6 bearing compressed or pushed back to it's starting point I got a measurment of 82mm, doing the same with the fiero tranny with the bearing in all the way in it's rest position I got a measurment of 65mm. This tells me the flywheel needs to be 17 -18 mm thicker than a stock fiero one about 11/16". If I'm wrong with my measurment could some one please correct me.
Joe
I believe the most accurate way to measure the required thickness is to mount the pressure plate and disc on both samples and measure the distance from the surface that the flywheel is resting on to the top of the pressure plate release tabs, and a second measurement consisting of the distance between the same initial point and the start of the splinedbore in the clutch disc for an added measure. I believe I have already posted that measurement for the G6 flywheel and clutch assembly, but didn't have a Getrag flywheel available for comparison.
Looks like it's right this time. The shafts were turned down and then sleeved so I'll eventually return them and have another set made from scratch to more exacting specs when I get the time.
This one looks like it sticks out a little far but it's actually due to the original design allowing it to insert further into the auto transmission however in this scenario as can be seen without the joint installed the shafts extend out from the transmission further than they would in the automatic so stability shouldn't be a problem since the entire bore of the plunge joint is filled by the shaft at 1.750" depth.
Now about those rare and badly needed flywheel bolts, they found them and as you can see they are very unique and come with rubber sleeves, the closest thing I was able to locate as a substitute are for one of the Land/Range Rover series SUVs through ARP at nearly $40 and I don't have a picture of them to know for sure how good a fit they would be, only that they are long enough and that the bolt head is apparently small enough, so if you find a flywheel make sure you stress how much you need the retaining bolts because GM is not selling them without a flywheel to my knowledge and possibly not with one.
Now about the shifter, I would love to hack and fit the original but it would be much easier to modify the 4-speed shifter since it has the characteristic spring tension in the proper reverse location and would apparently only need to have it's right side travel increased to facilitate a 5 and 6 shift gate. They are pretty much the same height however the cables connect at the opposite end and somewhat different locations but everything moves in the same directions.
Here is a picture of my intercooler, 27X10x3 I believe. I had actually planned to mount it up front and run pipes inside the rocker panels since it's basically the same process used in the successful rear mount turbos. I tryed to blow pressure into it with my mouth while the other end was capped and despite it's size the pressure build up was instant about like it would be if you put your finger over the end of a straw and tried to blow through it so I can see how the rear mount turbo can get away with little extra lag due to its location, further more that increased distance allows for an even greater intercooling effect which I intend to augment with water injection. I wll like mount it where you see it in the picture though to save the hassle despite how novel it would be in the front.
I have started my rotations in Atlanta and will be away from home for a while so I don't know how long it will be before I can go home and make any more progress.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 01-18-2007).]
Now about the shifter, I would love to hack and fit the original but it would be much easier to modify the 4-speed shifter since it has the characteristic spring tension in the proper reverse location and would apparently only need to have it's right side travel increased to facilitate a 5 and 6 shift gate. They are pretty much the same height however the cables connect at the opposite end and somewhat different locations but everything moves in the same directions.
Hi Joseph, The picture of the fiero shifter you have there is from a 5 speed fiero?
I'm looking forward to when you finish your project.
Joe
------------------ Race-Tech Automotive inc.
Specializing in Fiero performance: 3800 swaps, custom Aluminum flywheels, Brakes, Engine's, Aftermarket Bolt on performance parts, used Fiero parts, www.racetechauto.com
Looks like it's right this time. The shafts were turned down and then sleeved so I'll eventually return them and have another set made from scratch to more exacting specs when I get the time.
These are the Fiero auto female ends? just a stupid question...
Joe
------------------ Race-Tech Automotive inc.
Specializing in Fiero performance: 3800 swaps, custom Aluminum flywheels, Brakes, Engine's, Aftermarket Bolt on performance parts, used Fiero parts, www.racetechauto.com
That's a five speed shifter in the picture however the four speed shifter is the better of the two to start with, and yes that is a Fiero female inboard joint.
Are you going to have a one long drive shaft on the right side, just like the fiero has, or your going to have a 2 peice shaft set up? I guess it all depends on what lengths are available that will work? i would use the one peice shaft deal, (1) to keep cost down and (2) most of the V8's out there have been using the one peice shaft for years, so I don't see why it can't be used here..
Joe
------------------ Race-Tech Automotive inc.
Specializing in Fiero performance: 3800 swaps, custom Aluminum flywheels, Brakes, Engine's, Aftermarket Bolt on performance parts, used Fiero parts, www.racetechauto.com
Are you going to have a one long drive shaft on the right side, just like the fiero has, or your going to have a 2 peice shaft set up? I guess it all depends on what lengths are available that will work? i would use the one peice shaft deal, (1) to keep cost down and (2) most of the V8's out there have been using the one peice shaft for years, so I don't see why it can't be used here..
Joe
The purpose of the adaptor shafts is to allow the use of the original axles except for the inboard joint tulip on both sides which would have to be changed to the proper female tulip which would be installed on the original axles. The adapters are different lengths due to the internal offset of the final drive in the 6 spd.
One of the short shafts is inserted in the female joint in one of the pictures above giving the impression of a male joint sitting next to one of the short shafts when both are actually in the picture.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 01-20-2007).]
Would you eventually have a price for the insert shafts? also would you have a price for the tranny brackets?
Joe
The axles definately, but the rest I'm not sure about as of yet since it takes time to fabricate a good part and then jig it so that it can be duplicated and for the time being I'm depending on breakes in between clinic rotations whenever they occur to go back home and get the project closer to completion. GM states the transmission was tested to its current rating of 295 lb/ft so who knows what it's capable of. Therefore I may als send the stock axle shafts in to be duplicated in their stronger metal as an added strength measure. I still have to measure the shafts with the joint on it to make sure no fine tuning needs to be made to their length.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 01-22-2007).]
I've got a G6 6speed manual heading my way now. It will be here in the AM. My Fiero project is a Lambo Diablo kit on a 85GT chassis. It originally had the 4sp in it, and I'm installing a 3800 SII. So I'm not only looking forward to your progress, but will state my own if I get to a point where I've worked out something you haven't gotten to yet. Thanks for the info. Your progress is why I bought a 6sp for my car. I wanted one, but wasn't sure about the installation, since I've seen your go at it, I bought one.
I've got a G6 6speed manual heading my way now. It will be here in the AM. My Fiero project is a Lambo Diablo kit on a 85GT chassis. It originally had the 4sp in it, and I'm installing a 3800 SII. So I'm not only looking forward to your progress, but will state my own if I get to a point where I've worked out something you haven't gotten to yet. Thanks for the info. Your progress is why I bought a 6sp for my car. I wanted one, but wasn't sure about the installation, since I've seen your go at it, I bought one.
Glad to be of some help, I hope to be able to get some time to finish what I've started soon however for the moment I'm at the mercy of getting a long enough break during my training to go back home and work on it. If I could get 2 wks I could finish it and probably paint the car to. I have a plasma cutter on my grocery list, that will help a lot for making extra mounts. I still have a final perfected set of axles that need to be made once I get a moment to accurately measure the ones I have.
I'll try and get around to checking with them one of which I'm familiar with from when I started my initial search. The problem is they both have important operative words in their advertisement; hybrid and configuration, two terms suggesting mixing and matching existing parts of which I don't believe any exists for the F40 other than what was made specifically for it in the Saab and G6 and as of yet they are very difficult to find and expensive from a cost effective stand point.
I'll investigate and make sure however as it stands finding old used axles to get the female inboard plunge joint off of to install on the adapters and plug your stock axles into is still the most cost effective at the moment.
After seeing the address Raxles is a no go, they are one of the first places I called since they are within 150 miles of my home.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 01-30-2007).]
That's a no go for CV unlimited also, I was dead on with the operative words, they combine existing stock to create hybrids and though there is possibly something on the shelf that will work no one seems to know what it is.
I will say this the stock F40 related parts are strong, the local shop that turned my stock clutch into a Kevlar piece looked at the hub pointed out how much thicker it is than other stock production pieces.
That's a no go for CV unlimited also, I was dead on with the operative words, they combine existing stock to create hybrids and though there is possibly something on the shelf that will work no one seems to know what it is.
Bummer. I should call them and suggest they change their name to "CV Limited".
So the spline setup on the F40 is unique? I plan to use the auxilary (jack) shaft on mine. Is there any way to know if the Saab parts will fit?
------------------ 1988 GT, 5-speed, white, beechwood leather, 3.4 DOHC 6-speed installation in process. Really. I am working on it.
Bummer. I should call them and suggest they change their name to "CV Limited".
So the spline setup on the F40 is unique? I plan to use the auxilary (jack) shaft on mine. Is there any way to know if the Saab parts will fit?
To my knowledge they should plug right in since it's the same transmission with a different bellhousing. The problem is finding a Saab with the F40, purchasing the axles direct from Saab will give you a nose bleed for sure, there is a parts site that has a break down of the axles but the part needed the most from what I recall may or may not be sold separately at least I wasn't able to find that out right away but now that I mention it I'll check into it again because if the inboard joint alone can be purchased I might be able to have axle shafts made to join the F40 inboard joint to the Fiero outboard joint, the downside again is cost effectiveness since Saab is pricy.
If I could get a hold of a late model auto tranny axle from a Saab to see if there is some uniformity that would help, I have found through research they used the same jack shaft on the F40 and automatic so that says something positive, the problem is the joint shafts are different lengths on the F40 due to the offset final drive and I don't care to bother with the jackshaft addition.
Hope you're happy now DrDave, because a bump is exactly what I hit at about 50 mph during the foggy morning on Atlanta's well lit streets (that's sarcasm). You should give it more thought before saying things like that. So now the money set aside for tuning equipment and finishing up the project is going to a new set of wheels since both driverside wheels were destroyed and I can't find a match for the two on the car in time for Monday. That's the rear one in the picture.
Oh well, thank God I wasn't hurt and didn't hit any one during my brief flight, maybe if I go back I'll find that piece of exhaust that was snatched off.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 02-03-2007).]
OK... "Bump" is a bad word!, what should we call this back on top thing then? I got my F40 Trany today, so now im 5 times more interested in the progress of this thread. Being in sweden i just might end up using the saab axels. Will probobly get nosebleed in the process. Would much rather find something cheeper.
I suppose I should insert a couple of observations.
The counterweight on the shift linkage is just exactly that; a counterweight. It dynamically balances the shift linkage so that bumps and jolts don't knock it out of gear.
And in regards to clutches - have you considered the clutch assembly from a late '80s S-10 pickup with the 2.8 engine? It's the largest GM stock clutch that'll fit into the bell housing. It's a drop-in replacement for any manual Fiero, beefier than the stock Fiero clutch, and inexpensive to buy.
I registerd on http://forum.saabturboclub.com (Don't go there, they write in swedish! ) since the V6 saabs also uses the F40 trany, i thought i might find something, and it looks like i did. I just found out today that Saab 9-3 and 9-5 has used the same size axels all years, and even the Saab 900 has the same size axel and it should fit out tranys right on. Waiting to get confirmation though. Especialy on the 900, since it goes back all the way to the late 70's. In that case, the junk yards should be full of axels just waiting to get picked up. This is so far unconfirmed, but i thought i give you all a heads up anyway. If the info is right, i belive we have a brake through in solving the axel isue. (Or so i hope!)
I registerd on http://forum.saabturboclub.com (Don't go there, they write in swedish! ) since the V6 saabs also uses the F40 trany, i thought i might find something, and it looks like i did. I just found out today that Saab 9-3 and 9-5 has used the same size axels all years, and even the Saab 900 has the same size axel and it should fit out tranys right on. Waiting to get confirmation though. Especialy on the 900, since it goes back all the way to the late 70's. In that case, the junk yards should be full of axels just waiting to get picked up. This is so far unconfirmed, but i thought i give you all a heads up anyway. If the info is right, i belive we have a brake through in solving the axel isue. (Or so i hope!)
I was hoping for that kind of consistancy also however the F40 uses a jack-shaft or more accurately an intermediate shaft on the passenger side and as mentioned earlier the final drive is off set inside the transmission so the length of the inboard joint part that inserts into the transmission is not the same length for both sides and I'm opposed to using the intermediate shaft in place of the stock axle, then there is the issue of the roller tripod that fits inside the joint, if Saab actually made an inboard joint the proper length that will directly fit both sides of the F40 then it is very possible that there is an axle shaft already being manufactured that can connect it to the Fiero's outboard joint. The important consistency I found between the later vehicles you mentioned was in the intermediate shaft on the passenger side of the vehicle and I stopped exploring that option after confirming that since I don't want to use the intermediate shaft despite its potential benefits.
I would be very surprised if any part of the 900 series axles prove contributary since they did not have a transverse engine platform like the 9-3 although anything is possible.
In the long run, should the information prove true and proper fitting inboard joints can be acquired to fit both sides of the transmission I can ditch the stub shafts for two proper length shafts to join the outboard joint to the inboard joint. Post pics of what you find.
I suppose I should insert a couple of observations.
The counterweight on the shift linkage is just exactly that; a counterweight. It dynamically balances the shift linkage so that bumps and jolts don't knock it out of gear.
And in regards to clutches - have you considered the clutch assembly from a late '80s S-10 pickup with the 2.8 engine? It's the largest GM stock clutch that'll fit into the bell housing. It's a drop-in replacement for any manual Fiero, beefier than the stock Fiero clutch, and inexpensive to buy.
The clutch disc made specifically for the F40 is stronger and has more surface area than what's found on the S-10, in addition, the S-10 clutch disc does not have the right spline count so it would not work without being modified which would bring it's cost in excess of the stock F40 clutch. The Ford Ranger disc on the other hand does share the proper spline count as well as the Focus and those would work fine. Hopefully someone will go to work having a spacer adapter made that will place the Fiero flywheel the proper distance relative to the transmission. I mentioned early on that the ring gear could be removed from the flywheel and an automatic flywheel for starting purposes could be installed then the spacer and flywheel on top of that. Sounds primitive but the assembly would be lighter than the stock dual mass flywheel and except for the rigid mount would be similar to the dual mass design which is pretty much two flywheels attached to eachother with spring dampeners like that found on the disc.
If I didn't have the dual mass flywheel already I would press Street Dreams more to get an estimate on an adaptor but I'm not going to send them a flywheel and a transmission to do it as they requested. Specifications and maybe an automatic flywheel to line up the holes is all that's necessary.
The 900 got transverse sometime 94-95 and from then and forward it's same as 9-3 (900 changed name to 9-3, basicly same car though.) I found out that Saab indeed uses the transaxel to the passenger side. What's the pros/cons for the transaxel? All i can se at a first glance is that there will be a litle less unsuspended weight, witch is a good thing for the handling. Is there any chance GM would use different shafts for different F40 tranys? (Diameter/Number of splines?) Or would it be safe to asume they are all the same? On the Saab forum they even think the bellhousing looks like it could be the same. I will visit a junkyard as soon as i possibly can, and pick up a drive shaft, if they don't charge to much i can pick up the whole asembly. (There is no more junkyards in sweden like there used to. You can't just walk around and pick up what you find. enviremental **** happend there to. The companies needs to do it all and if not for anything else, i can't walk around for insurance reasons. So instead we have to pay good. They usualy charge just over half, compared to a new part.) I hope i can get to the junkyard by wensday, i will keep you all posted as soon as i have something to report.
I believe it was the 9000 that has the transverse engine and the GM F40 has a different bellhousing than the Saab F40, otherwise GM only offers one set of axles for it.
9000/9-5 is the one we would have a look at, since it has longer axels. (Bigger and wider car.) 900/9-3 also has transverse engines from mid 90's, byt the cas is smaler, hence the axels are shorter. All the Saab's with transverse engines has the transaxel though, if you decided not to go that route then Saab's are out of the equation.
Some Opel's uses the F40 to. I belive GM sells the Opel as Saturn in the US, don't know if GM sells the versions vith turbos as saturn though. That would be the once with the F40 in them.
The Saturn manual transmission is an F23 and regardless of my preferences for the axles what you find will be helpful to someone else and all of us if by some oddity they actually make a right side axle that plugs directly into the transmission without the use of the intermediate shaft. So far it appears they do not. My goal is to keep custom parts to a minimum in favor of items you buy off the shelf.
I'm following this thread with great interest, although I don't plan on doing this swap for quite some time. I am perplexed a bit though, and want to ask why it is that one would not want to use the intermediate / jack shaft?
If I understand correctly, it evens the length of the axels a bit and reduces torque steer. <- Please correct me on that if I am wrong. With the intermediate shaft, one would have to fabricate a way to mount it to the various engines being used, but once done, it seems like a good way to go.
