Finally got the engine. I was surprised to find that style of manifold under the heat shield and I intended to add an oil cooler but if you look closely above the oil filter you'll see it already has one that uses the radiator fluid as a coolant.
This will hopefully make it easier, the coolant inlet and outlet are already in the approximate stock location.
Water and oil fill necks.
The two black covers house the VVT on the timing cover and the high end low end dual intake valve, black cover on the intake manifold.
In the meantime until I get it on the stand and can get started, I have lots of parts on Ebay I need you all to buy for your own personal projects and what nots to help me along with the expenses. I'll post the shortened reground 6spd axle in the 6 spd thread later. I'll be pretty busy so I might be slow answering any questions of which I hope there are few this early in the swap but they are always welcome.
This looks like a very exciting and innovative swap. Can you tell me what intake manifold will be used and if this engine will run on regular unleaded gas? Thanks for your time.
This looks like a very exciting and innovative swap. Can you tell me what intake manifold will be used and if this engine will run on regular unleaded gas? Thanks for your time.
The engine is being swapped as is with a few upgrades, LS6 valve springs and a reground cam. From the factory with 9.8:1 compression 87 octane is the recommended fuel.
I'll post more pictures when I get it on the stand. I've been away in Atlanta doing my clinic rotations and forgot how hot it gets here in Florida, the heat will definately play a part in how quick I get this done.
Joe: What engine management system are you planning on using? I believe that this engine is ETC and might be a challenge to control.
------------------ 87GT 3.4 Turbo- 0-60 5.2 seconds 2006 3800SC Series III swap in progress Engine Controls, PCM goodies, re-programming & odd electronics stuff " I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Joe: What engine management system are you planning on using? I believe that this engine is ETC and might be a challenge to control.
I'm using the 730 ECM with TGP code and tuning with Moates APU-1 emulator and Zeitronix wideband O2 both units also datalog. Yes it is an ETC engine and that will be dechallenged with what you see in the picture below.
The 76 mm Northstar throttlebody you were talking about in your 3800SC swap and an adaptor plate.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 08-07-2007).]
Have you decided on the cam profile yet? What are your predictions on hp & torque , max rpm? I was thinking it would be nice with 3900,DOD and a turbo.
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85 GT 3.4 14.9 @ 90 1.9 60' Old TH125/3.06 Unknown New 4T60/3.42
Have you decided on the cam profile yet? What are your predictions on hp & torque , max rpm? I was thinking it would be nice with 3900,DOD and a turbo.
I received a call from Delta Cams today in regards to the specs I wanted, they stated that the cam has an 112 deg LSA, not the 118 LSA that friends on the 60 degree V6 forum measured, so that changed my plans for 225/225 116 LSA to 220/220 and 114 LSA and .510 lift. I'm aiming for 400 hp and 400 lb/ft. The engine is rated 240 hp at 6000 rpm so it breaths high enough for it. I'm going to limit the rpm to about 6800. The DOD might cause trouble and I suspect it's still under testing since it is only available in the Impala.
My engine is from an 07 Uplander and has about 3000 miles on it.
Northstar throttlebody install. The adaptor can be turned upside down to locate the throttle linkage on either side of the intake.
Stock Northstar 76mm Intake throat partition.
Stock springs rest on ~.040" cups and the seal base for a spec spring height of 1.7". the non VVT 3500's rest on the seals @1.7"
LS6 springs have an install height of 1.8" and are stronger so I removed the .040" cups leaving about .060" increased closed load. They should offer a bit more stability at and above the stock 6000 rpm fuel cutoff.
Proof positive this is a very low mileage engine. The ports are clean.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 08-09-2007).]
This is awesome, I don't have the money or experience to tackle a swap like this, but I've been anxious to see someone try it. I have a Maxx SS, and it pushes that big black brick along fairly nicely. It might not be the flashiest engine, but it would sure rock in a fiero. Good luck, i'll definitely be watching your thread.
I had to do some searching and measuring to figure out what size oil filter bypass to get so that I can relocate the filter since the straight down position will not clear the cradle. I found the part # on the oil cooler and looked it up, $165 from GM parts direct. I imagine it does a pretty good job, initially I didn't see the benefit given that engine oil usually runs about the same temp as the coolant tends to reach but when I factored in the direct heat transfer from oil being sprayed on the bottom of the pistons it should run a good bit higher. I have measured 240 degrees with a gauge where a turbo was involved. I'm considering bypassing the engine coolant loop for an external liquid cooler addition plus the oil cooler I already have for it.
Joseph: I'm wondering about the intake. You mentioned high end low end and a mechanisam that controled it. Does the intake change runner length and form to enhance engine performance, long small runners for low end and short big runners for high end. Is this the consept or am I in left field ?
It looks more like velocity blades than anything else. When the engine is down low, it pinches it off a little, causing there to be higher velocity. When the engine is up top, flowing a lot, the blades open up.
Joseph: I'm wondering about the intake. You mentioned high end low end and a mechanisam that controled it. Does the intake change runner length and form to enhance engine performance, long small runners for low end and short big runners for high end. Is this the consept or am I in left field ?
That's pretty much how they explained it, variable length runner. What it actually looks like is just a partition that switches between room air and hallway plus room air.
I'm painting the engine now while waiting for the camshaft and getting ready to remove the crankshaft to install the 7x ring.
I got the plasma cutter setup so that I don't have to spend so much time cutting out brackets. The cut isn't pretty and has the wiggly welding motion to it. I'll have to practice with it a little more to get it adjusted down to the setting needed for the metal thickness, I'll try to make some extras once I decide on a tranny mount and shift cable bracket. I got the Plasma cutter from Harbor Freight for $700 on sale, then it suddenly disappeared off their site. It cuts up 1/2" metal and everything else I found with that capability cost over $1000.
Finally got the 7x reluctor wheel installed so I can start putting the engine back together for mounting on the cradle and building the turbo plumbing. The steel crank is about 15 lbs heavier than the cast iron crank. I used the balancer from the fiero to help line up the 7x ring on the steel crank after removing the stock ring, by lining up a make shift plumb bob on a front wheel drive engine crank then installing the balancer on the steel crank, marking it for the notch location then heating and installing the ring which fits tight after it cools off. I still installed two set screws for added security.
Now I can button it back up.
The cam specs are a little short of what I was expecting but I did tell Delta Cams to use their better judgement over what I asked. I was told the stock cam had duration on one lobe of around 202 int or exh not sure, so the current reground specs are a considerable increase over stock. I was also told to install it straight up in which case a Desktop Dyno simulation shows is best for it. I'm not sure it will be of any benefit to use the VVT modulator to retard it from that position, at least in Dyno it showed no benefit although Delta said up to 8 degrees retard should be beneficial so I'll limit the modulator to that much retard should I decide to give it a try.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 08-16-2007).]
Surgery is almost complete. Unfortunately the pushrods didn't arrive Friday so I'll have to wait to completely bolt everything down. I did get the 30 lb/hr injectors installed in place of the 28 lb/hr injectors, it doesn't sound like much of an improvement but the 30s are at 300 kPa and the 28s are at 400 kPa and I'll be running about 56 psi fuel pressure which is at or a little above 400 kPa so they'll be pumping at about 33 lb/hr under boost pressure. I have 36 lb/hr 3800SC injectors which are rated under 52 psi fuel pressure but the ports on the lower intake are so large that they interfere with the injectors which have to be used with the earlier fuel rails and I didn't want to have any added stress on fuel related parts so hopefully I'll be able to find and afford some of the 42 lb/hr short style injectors found on the supercharged Cadillac motors in the near future.
I would really like to use the cast iron header manifold but it looks like I might be problematic since I would like to route the exhaust from the front side turbo back over the bellhousing and out the back but space maybe an issue due to the shift cable linkage for the 6 speed which I'll try to start on tomorrow. My A/C stopped working earlier this year and I thought it was from the accident that brought my muffler in contact with one of the metal A/C lines but when I removed the turbo and manifolds from the car I noted the A/C hose from the compressor had been burnt pretty good so I'm not sure which is the problem. I have the 3900 A/C hose and since the fittings are usually barbed I shouldn't have a problem attaching it to the Fiero hose end to the vehicle.
I also considered adding a little more spring pressure to the oil pump spring but the oil pump is bigger than the stock 2.8 pump and the oil squirters have spring loaded check valves and require a little pressure before oil squirts out of them, and I've never had a problem in the past with oil pressure on any of my single or dual turbo setups so there shouldn't be a problem.
The alternator is 125 amps which is a nice jump from the stock Fiero alternator. I have 14 gauge mandrel bent 1 3/4" mild steel and flanges so I'll probably go ahead make headers which will allow me to move the turbos a little closer to the engine and hopefully give me the clearance I need for the exhaust. There is more room than I'm picturing I'm sure but I have to work around the Intercooler which is about 27" long and I don't want to burn another A/C hose.
Joe that's an agressive project. I followed similar steps with the 3800SC series III swap now near completeion. Reworked series III fuel rail, LS1 MAF, N* throttle body, 98-02 GTP O2 sensor, 03 PCM and Fiero IAT ( resistance measurments were the the same as the GTP) As an alternative you might want to also look into the 98-02 Pontiac GT PCM. Thats a sequential fire PCM and gives you the benefit of OBDII. I believe that in the next few years the 3900 will replace the 3800 engine so it looks like you are doing the first swap into a Fiero. How much horsepower do you expect to get from this engine? Nice project-good luck.
------------------ 87GT 3.4 Turbo- 0-60 5.2 seconds 2006 3800SC Series III swap in progress Engine Controls, PCM goodies, re-programming & odd electronics stuff " I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Joe that's an agressive project. I followed similar steps with the 3800SC series III swap now near completeion. Reworked series III fuel rail, LS1 MAF, N* throttle body, 98-02 GTP O2 sensor, 03 PCM and Fiero IAT ( resistance measurments were the the same as the GTP) As an alternative you might want to also look into the 98-02 Pontiac GT PCM. Thats a sequential fire PCM and gives you the benefit of OBDII. I believe that in the next few years the 3900 will replace the 3800 engine so it looks like you are doing the first swap into a Fiero. How much horsepower do you expect to get from this engine? Nice project-good luck.
I thought about using a 3800 PCM but I don't care for MAF sensors and since the engine has aluminum heads the flow characteristics and spark table will be very different from that found on the 3800 so I felt starting with the Turbo Grand Prix programming would give me a better baseline not to mention simplicity. I've seen several threads here suggesting I would likely face more of a hassle with programming with the 3800 PCM. When you compare the aluminum head 3.1 spark table to the iron head 2.8 spark table you'll see a significant difference to indicate the potential added tuning efforts which would definately need a dyno to help reach proper spark table tune for best results short of advancing to detonation and backing off.
My goal is 400/400 and so far Dyno simulations show 416 hp @ 6500 rpm and 421 hp @ 7000 rpm on 7 psi. The stock rating is 242 hp @ 6000 rpm and 240 lb/ft with the HO engine rated at 270 hp, and 258 lb/ft not sure if it's available for purchase yet since the 06 Semma show. Torque reading is 360 lb/ft @ 5000 on 7 psi which has me curious as to the possibility it's on the low side. The baseline was very close to actual specs using the stock cam, however I'm not sure about the cam specs since the stock cam numbers some members arrived at on the 60 degree V6 forum were apparently incorrect (but apparently accurate relative to output), particularly the LSA at 118 which turned out to be 112 and about 10-12 degrees less in duration according to Delta. My fear is with not knowing who is correct. The stock cam shows near actual power output at the full 15 degree retard position on the module, the Delta regrind specs show almost exactly the same performance installed straight up which coincidently is at about 13 degrees retard on the VVT module.
Unfortunately I didn't measure the straight up location for the stock cam for comparison between the two but given the limited amount the cam could be reground I can't understand how the reground cam is not producing the ~15% increase over the stock cam on simulation so the specs have to be in error somewhere (or I entered the specs at the wrong angle), and if it is the base specs then my base line power simulation produced higher numbers than Dyno normally would and that would make since given I'm use to seeing simulation numbers lower than the documented power numbers of a given engine. As long as it runs properly I can always address cam spec issues later. I've eliminated the VVT function which takes some of the complication out of it, now all I have to do is sort out the four terminals used to open and close the variable rate intake to switch between low and high rpm.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 08-19-2007).]
The pushrods arrived today, not bad for just under $100 hardened.
The engine is on the cradle and after not being able to find the poly transmission mounts locally rightaway someone asked why not solid mount it. So I think I'll save the cash and give it a try. I'm going to stick with the orginal exhaust plan using the first set of manifolds like the ones I put on the 3500 except I'll have to move the inboard turbo forward in an effort to route the exhaust over the bellhousing to leave room for the intercooler and oil cooler.
I dont know what desktop dyno program your using, but 400 crank HP for a motor like this seems a bit low. A similar setup on a 3800 would net around 700HP.
I dont know what desktop dyno program your using, but 400 crank HP for a motor like this seems a bit low. A similar setup on a 3800 would net around 700HP.
That's over 400 hp on 7psi, which is significantly more than what the 3800 makes at 7psi. I'm using Desktop Dyno 2003 and the specs have come pretty close on the stock stat entry, I'm using head flow numbers for the 3500 and I would rather under estimate than over. 700 hp seems like a real stretch even at 15 psi. I also recall that despite the 3.4 DOHC valve configuration either the 3400 or 3500 heads apparently flow better and when you think about it the boosted examples suggest at a minimum they are very close with stock boosted 3400s running well over 300 hp on 10 psi. The 3500 heads out flow the 3400 heads and the 3900 heads although I have no specs for them are no comparison when you look at the high port design after the LS1 heads and the large valves, 1.87/1.52. I show about 540 hp at 15 psi for the 3900.
GM did me a favor and solved my injector delimma, since I'm restricted to using the new short injectors and am limited in access to reasonably priced higher flowing injectors, adding an additional injector set to pulse on at near peak boost pressure is a good substitute. The inlet for the PCV valve feed on the plenum is in an excellent location and is a snug fit for an injector which points center mast at the divider in the plenum throat.
I'm still behind partly because of a daily slow start around noon everyday and the heat but I'm going to try and finish up the exhaust and turbo plumbing at a minimum tomorrow and get the shift linkage taken care of. I'm really hoping to at least get the engine installed Saturday.
I did manage to get the exhaust to feed out the back for both turbos, I'm going to install dual short glasspacks in the tail pipe locations.
Since the intercooler takes up a good bit of space and I still need to install the intercooler plumbing the external wastegates will go on last. I'm using 2.25" exhaust pipe which is really more like 2 1/8 since it was measured from the outside diameter but that should be plenty for 400 hp or more on a dual exhaust setup.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 08-23-2007).]
Today was another late start, the custom parts take a lot of time to fabricate because it's a spontaneous process as opposed to a procession from plans. I did manage to get the intercooler in place so tomorrow hopefully I'll be able to finish up the exhaust and plumbing for the turbos. The intercooler is pretty big and more than enough to cool 10-12 psi. There will be a shovel like scoop that will hang just below the bottom of the car about 3/4" and skim the air passing underneath. The oil cooler will rest on top of the intercooler so that both get the air stream.
The water pipes above the valve cover are in a perfect location to supply coolant to the turbos.
I also finished the shift linkage so now that I think about it I did accomplish a pretty good bit today, I'll explain the process involed with this in the 6 spd thread.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 08-24-2007).]
The exhaust is pretty much complete except for the tail pipes and the wastegates are installed. My power management add ons have arrived also except for the exhaust gas temperature gauge. I'm going to install the oil feed and drain lines to the turbos and at a minimum have the old engine removed tomorrow. Thinking about pulling it from the top but I'm not sure yet. I need to get the new engine installed and if necessary finish the odds and ends while it's in the car.
Snow Performance water/meth kit
Walbro pump and electric fuel pressure gauge which I've wanted for quite some time to monitor pressure from inside the car.
Can you tell us exactly which turbos you are using? Also, which brand/type wastegate and boost controller? There is another thread here about turbos and we are trying to gather as much information in one place for beginners like me. Would be nice to add your experience to the list. Thanks and nice job on your engine swap. Very nice.
Can you tell us exactly which turbos you are using? Also, which brand/type wastegate and boost controller? There is another thread here about turbos and we are trying to gather as much information in one place for beginners like me. Would be nice to add your experience to the list. Thanks and nice job on your engine swap. Very nice.
T3 Turbos .60 compressor, .63 turbines, found on 80s Mustangs and Thunderbirds. 38mm Tial knock off wastegates with 8 psi springs, and ecm controlled boost solenoid for higher boost.
I'm down to needing to make turbo support mounts, muffler hangers, aft A/C compressor bracket and remaking the rear transmission solid mount. I can't express how time consuming the custom little parts are. I haven't decided exactly where I'm going to relocate the oil filter to and my oil cooler is so big I'm not sure where it's going to go. Hopefully it goes in the car tomorrow and I can spend Saturday linking the clutch hydraulic line to the transmission and setting up my returnless fuel line and assembling the axles and installing the sensor fittings, WBO2, EGT, Oil temp and fuel pressure sender.
Turbo plumbing is finished, the funky paint application is a testimony to how hot and humid it is here even at 10 pm at night when the pipe to the throttle body was painted.
Ran out of red silicone and found out I could buy the stuff right here in town instead of ordering it although not in red.
I'm curious about how the glasspacks are going to sound, I was told the louvers should face into the exhaust for longevity by the manufacturer.
I decided it made better sense to turn the intercooler around so that the widest part corrasponds with the widest part of the cradle and that seemed to make more room in some important areas.
I'm going to wrap the exhaust and had a real blessing today when I stumbled across stainless steel lock ties at Harbor Freight $5 for 25 12" ties, Advance auto wanted $10 for 4 if I read their add right on line since the guy in the store told me four dollars for one over the phone, I knew that couldn't be right.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 08-30-2007).]
Wow Joseph, for something that you call a "spontaneous process" there is clearly evident brilliance and order to the design. It looks great.
Thanks for the encouragement, I call it my greatest work of art yet and even without the heat here in Florida the process is exhausting. I can't wait to be done with it. I've taken measurements and so far everything should fit, except the alternator which I'm considering making extensions for that attach to the bracket and move it further out and down a little but still up top, in an effort to avoid notching the decklid.
Originally posted by Joseph Upson: I'm considering bypassing the engine coolant loop for an external liquid cooler addition plus the oil cooler I already have for it.
Why? Using engine coolant will help the oil warm up from cold faster and will maintain the oil at the correct temperature once warmed up, rather than potentially overcooling it.
Why? Using engine coolant will help the oil warm up from cold faster and will maintain the oil at the correct temperature once warmed up, rather than potentially overcooling it.
For some of the same reasons that automatic transmissions benefit from an external cooler in addition to or independently of the radiator based cooler, lower temperatures relative to engine temps. In my neck of the woods there is not much time needed for warming up. When you burn up an engine due to overheating in an automatic car the transmission usually follows close behind thanks to the heat transfer from the hot coolant. When my car is sitting in summer heat running at over 200 degrees there is no benefit to having the engine oil run at that temperature that I'm aware of.
Since this engine has oil squirters for the pistons, there is a further benefit to having oil cooler than the water temperature splashing on the bottom of them and I don't think I need to go into the anti-knock qualities or piston strength favor it provides by keeping piston heat down when dealing with turbos. Basically the closer the engine runs at minimum effective coolant temperatures the better for what I intend to do. I'm exploiting an advantage and have gauges to let me know when things are too cool. I've run an oil temp gauge before and the oil tended to run considerably hotter than the coolant with a turbo installed so my external cooler will help with that in which case I wouldn't need the apparent small contribution the OE cooler provides.
For some of the same reasons that automatic transmissions benefit from an external cooler in addition to or independently of the radiator based cooler, lower temperatures relative to engine temps. In my neck of the woods there is not much time needed for warming up. When you burn up an engine due to overheating in an automatic car the transmission usually follows close behind thanks to the heat transfer from the hot coolant. When my car is sitting in summer heat running at over 200 degrees there is no benefit to having the engine oil run at that temperature that I'm aware of.
Since this engine has oil squirters for the pistons, there is a further benefit to having oil cooler than the water temperature splashing on the bottom of them and I don't think I need to go into the anti-knock qualities or piston strength favor it provides by keeping piston heat down when dealing with turbos. Basically the closer the engine runs at minimum effective coolant temperatures the better for what I intend to do. I'm exploiting an advantage and have gauges to let me know when things are too cool. I've run an oil temp gauge before and the oil tended to run considerably hotter than the coolant with a turbo installed so my external cooler will help with that in which case I wouldn't need the apparent small contribution the OE cooler provides.
What makes you think the OE cooler has only a very small benefit? Were you running any kind of oil cooler when you were monitoring oil temps? What temperature do you think is ideal for the oil, if it ISN'T the engine's nominal coolant temperature?
Why does everyone think that everything needs to be as cool as possible to run well? There's an optimal temp for which your bearing clearances, bore clearances, cylinder head clamp load (aluminum heads expanding under steel bolts) and a host of other internal engine parameters are most appropriate for hard running.
You can, for instance, spin a main bearing in a built Northstar if you wind it tight before it's fully warmed.
What makes you think the OE cooler has only a very small benefit? Were you running any kind of oil cooler when you were monitoring oil temps? What temperature do you think is ideal for the oil, if it ISN'T the engine's nominal coolant temperature?
Why does everyone think that everything needs to be as cool as possible to run well? There's an optimal temp for which your bearing clearances, bore clearances, cylinder head clamp load (aluminum heads expanding under steel bolts) and a host of other internal engine parameters are most appropriate for hard running.
You can, for instance, spin a main bearing in a built Northstar if you wind it tight before it's fully warmed.
Operative term is minimum effective temperature for what I'm trying to do, that's all inclusive of the dynamics you mentioned. The sandwhich cooler is small, as is the 5/16" hose that feeds it so it doesn't offer the cooling ability that I want for what I'm trying to do, particularly in a car with a radiator initially designed to cool an engine 1.1 litres smaller. If it was that crucial an addition for engine management all of the 3900 engines would have them but they don't.
I didn't arrive at this decision without giving it some thought, I have an engine that will see loads higher than normal service expectations and more power produces more heat. Adding turbos will add more heat which can be countered with more cooling capacity or more cooling effort (fans for example) I chose capacity. Nearly all of us have experienced the drop in power as temperatures climb, as long as I run high enough oil temps to boil off condensation and provide sufficient lubrication that's a plus. The factory settings are ranges I prefer to operate on the low end of, especially since I've had more problems running higher factory temps than lower over the years. It'll be fine Will. Turbocharged engines don't like heat anywhere but the exhaust and that's the key reason behind the added cooling.
damn your only like an hour and half away from me and you do some MEAN looking welds and really good at exhaust. So could you help me with my turbo set up on my SCCA/AutoX project, Free beer lol.
Running twin turbo's with a oil cooler is very smart and ALOT of cars that run higher boost levels have them (eclipse, RX7, Supra, 300zx, Skyline, and any car getting over 10psi) it is really smart and helps the system relieve alot of the heat from with in. Anyways it is easier to fix over cooling than over heating and I would hook up the coolers after the turbo's to bring the temps down in the engine. How are you running the mth/acl injection and what psi will it turn on at, also why not a water intercooler? it would be more effective in FL than air to air and with higher boost levels be more efficient and give more of a buffer against knock.
