It's been discussed before. The manual is wrong. The rear hubs (similar design and bolt size) I see are 62 lb.ft. I think that's what was decided on for the fronts. (For comparison, my Trailblazer uses similar, although obviously larger hub/bearing assemblies. It specs at 77 lb. ft.) You can try to tighten the fronts to 220 if you want, but I think they'll break long before that.
Originally posted by Raydar: It's been discussed before. The manual is wrong. The rear hubs (similar design and bolt size) I see are 62 lb.ft. I think that's what was decided on for the fronts. (For comparison, my Trailblazer uses similar, although obviously larger hub/bearing assemblies. It specs at 77 lb. ft.) You can try to tighten the fronts to 220 if you want, but I think they'll break long before that.
Well, another thing I just noticed. The conversion from NM to Lb/Ft is wrong as well:
I just tried "untorquing" one of mine with my torque wrench (I know, I'm not supposed to do that, but I did it for the cause ) and at around 70 it started unscrewing.
Sorry. Hope I didn't come off sounding like an azz. I just remember seeing this before. Thinking that they got the measurement confused with the one for the rear axle nut. THAT one is ~200 lb.ft.
Sorry. Hope I didn't come off sounding like an azz.
Not at all buddy, we're just discussing, it's all good and I think it's good someone points out the mistake in the book, will save the next guy from breaking a bolt while putting it back together!
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I just remember seeing this before. Thinking that they got the measurement confused with the one for the rear axle nut. THAT one is ~200 lb.ft.
A member of my local club thought they might have taken the measurement off a front wheel-drive assembly (cardan) where it would need to be torqued at around 200lb/ft.
Anyhow, 60-70 is what makes sense.
[This message has been edited by benoitmalenfant (edited 09-03-2013).]
I'm putting my front end back together and didn't note which bolt went where. Having put it back together it didn't look right, I had the long bolt at the rear and the short at the front. So corrected that, long bolt up front, short in the rear. Still doesn't look right. I'm slightly puzzled.
I like to use washers at both ends to help avoid scratching any protective coating when tightening. Plus the zinc coated washers act as sacrificial anodes just in case. Anyway, with the long bolt up front, there's quite a bit of the bolt sticking out past the nut. Plus its tip is pointy just like the short one shown previously in this thread. I'm not very fond of having that pointy end as close to the rubber boot on the steering rack as it currently is. I could probably come up with a way of putting a plastic or rubber cap on it but still...
For the short bolt I feel it is a bit short. It's short enough that I chose not to have a washer at the bolt head but only at the nut just to make sure that all the threads would engage. Also, this bolt looks more like the long bolt shown previously. This wouldn't be much of a problem if I could find washers half as thick as the ones I have now (which are about 2.5mm, or 0.097-0.1 inch) but as it is I'm not really digging it.
any thoughts?
*edit: just measured the rear bolt (front is a bit harder to get to once it's in place) and it's about 3.4 inch. Did the length vary over the years? I wouldn't find it hard to believe that the bolts were installed without washers from the factory so the rear bolt was just long enough and the front bolt was installed the other way around so the length really didn't matter when building the car.
[This message has been edited by PerKr (edited 03-08-2014).]
*edit: just measured the rear bolt (front is a bit harder to get to once it's in place) and it's about 3.4 inch. Did the length vary over the years? I wouldn't find it hard to believe that the bolts were installed without washers from the factory so the rear bolt was just long enough and the front bolt was installed the other way around so the length really didn't matter when building the car.
Just saw your post. I don't think that the bolts varied by years. You could always buy new bolts to replace them if you are careful enough to get the right grade bolt. 84-87 LOWER CONTROL ARM BOLTS & NUTS
Great Write-up. Doing mine now, and this is very handy.
A couple of comments: I buy the SuperLube in tubes for extra lubrication. Look for PTFE. I bought a second grease gun just for this grease ( use it for my 4-link arms in my other car).
The Front LOWER A-arm bolt was giving me fits as well, hitting the rubber sleeve on the steering rack. I finally thought " what happens if I turn the steering wheel all the way to the right ( for the driver's side bolt)", and YES, it worked. Moved the boot totally out of the way. Don't know yet if the same trick is going to work for the passenger side or not. Edit: yes, moving the steering to the other side gave me room on the passenger side, enough room to even use an impact wrench!
For getting the bushings out, I use a 1/8" drill bit. I drill down into the rubber next to the inner bushing, and then try and rotate the drill around the bushing while it is running. Usually it will "walk" it's way around the inner bushing and pull it right out. Once the inner is out, do the same thing around the outer edge of the bushing. I might use a slightly larger drill bit size here. I did 4 yesterday, and 3.5 came out OK. One of the bushings was really "stuck" to the housing, so I had to use more extreme measures to get that one completely out. Edit: after I read this thread a second time, I saw that someone else had also posted this idea. Sorry for repeating something that was already available.
------------------ '87 GT in process, including GA / Seville brakes, Poly Suspension, '95 3800 Series 1 SC ( 225 hp ) T460e.
[This message has been edited by darbysan (edited 07-13-2015).]
Originally posted by darbysan: A couple of comments: I buy the SuperLube in tubes for extra lubrication. Look for PTFE. I bought a second grease gun just for this grease ( use it for my 4-link arms in my other car).
I just ordered more grease from Summit.
I got stupid and bought the big tube since I was doing way too many poly installs... My intent was to install zerg fittings, but never did. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ptp-19-1751
How does the installation hold up? Any wear on the poly? I'm also replacing all my ball joints and tie rod ends with Rodney's. Is it wiser to just leave them as the came or to put those poly boots over the rubber ones too? Will the poly rub on the rubber boot?
Originally posted by cebix: How does the installation hold up? Any wear on the poly? I'm also replacing all my ball joints and tie rod ends with Rodney's. Is it wiser to just leave them as the came or to put those poly boots over the rubber ones too? Will the poly rub on the rubber boot?
The poly has held up well for me, 2 years on the car. I didn't really corner hard in the car though. My buddy Matt corners hard in the LeMon/ChumpCar and it needed replaced within a year I think.
Use the rubber boots that came with the ball joints, they seal better. You can put the poly over top if you want, but it might compress the boot...
I'm doing it on a daily driver. Did the whole front today, going to do the rear in a few days. Drives pretty hard after installing the poly bushings but it's good! Very, very tight. Only used the rubber caps, threw away all the poly ones.
I'm told by my mechanic that I should replace most of the front suspension. If I have poly installed with the new parts would it have a negative effect with the non-poly rear end suspension parts. Not quite sure which way to go with this, any advice appreciated. Thanks, Rich
I'm told by my mechanic that I should replace most of the front suspension. If I have poly installed with the new parts would it have a negative effect with the non-poly rear end suspension parts. Not quite sure which way to go with this, any advice appreciated. Thanks, Rich
My opinion is don't use poly at all. Just adds noise and creaks with no added performance benefits.
Jason: What about all the positive aspects I hear about.. tighter, better cornering etc. that OEM bushings don't seem to offer. I'm still trying to decide which ones to have installed. By the way, thanks for the input. Rich
I have poly bushings in most places on my car as well. I have noticed a harsher ride but with more road control. Friends that have used these bushing have told me that they wear much faster than the rubber. Good for a show/hobby car but probably not the best for a regular street driven car.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
So I'm installing Prothane polyurethane bushings in the rear of my 85 Fiero, and there is a gap between the shoulder of the bushings and the control arm:
The control arm is able to slide (with a prybar) back and forth on the polyurethane bushings.
What is going on here?
I was thinking of making washer-like spacers to fill the gaps and hence keep the control arm from moving back and forth. Opinions?
that does make one wonder if it's the same on both sides....
I've put my fair share of poly in these things over the years, i found is normal to have the excess on the non shoulder side ( I know you know what I mean ) but I have never seen the excess as yours are.
[This message has been edited by jelly2m8 (edited 05-12-2024).]
Wow, 16 years and people are still using this. Makes a guy proud.
Like everyone said, the control arm should have been a snug fit getting it back in the cradle. I have always had to wiggle it back and forth to get it in, and by wiggle I mean MM's of movement. If you can just pull your control arm out of the cradle without doing that, it is bent.
Just went in the garage and the control arms fit tight to the outsides, but couldn't get very good pictures because it is dirty and under the car. I have a spare cradle and some controls arms that I can get better pictures of later.
[This message has been edited by MulletproofMonk (edited 05-12-2024).]
Originally posted by jelly2m8: i found is normal to have the excess on the non shoulder side ( I know you know what I mean ) but I have never seen the excess as yours are.
Yeah, I know what you mean
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Originally posted by olejoedad:
Perhaps the end of the control arm was squished when removing the old bushings?
Originally, I used a propane torch to heat the bushing shells and eject the rubber, so no major pressing forces involved.
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Originally posted by MulletproofMonk:
Got pics but it says that PIP isn't there to download. Anyone else have that issue?
Now you don't need PIP anymore.
If you are logged into the forum, you can use the "Upload Media" button:
I measured some control arms like so:
Spare cradle: RH 13-3/16" LH 13-1/4"
My Fiero: RH 13-1/16" LH 13-1/16"
The pivot points of my Fiero's control arms are spaced closer together than those of my spare cradle assembly.
Maybe these were just normal production variances?
Nothing looks wrong with my Fiero's control arms, so I think I'll just use them with spacers. I ordered some Delrin plastic sheet in order to make some spacers.
The gaps were large enough that even if I used the spare control arms, there would still be gaps that I would want to fill with (thinner) spacers.
...you don't need PIP anymore. If you are logged into the forum, you can use the "Upload Media" button:
I don't know how many times that's fooled me. I type out a post, and then go to add some images using the "Upload Media" tab... and nothing happens. No uploaded image, no error message, no nothing. Yes, I understand what the issue is... but it's enough to totally bamboozle anyone who's unfamiliar with the forum.
So this first picture I put my bushing presser on and pushed the busing all the way in here is the front rear bushing here is the CA and you can see it doesn't fit, so I had to shift that bushing back out a little to where it was and then it went in with a gently tap from a rubber mallet Once it is in, you can see that rear bushing had to move a little. I would assume this CA is tweaked a little bit.
Originally posted by MulletproofMonk: Once it is in, you can see that rear bushing had to move a little. I would assume this CA is tweaked a little bit.
The movement doesn't only happen once during installation.
I took my Fiero for a quick spin (with the gaps), and when I returned from my ride, the control arms shifted relative to the bushings.
You should be aware that with stiffer bushings, factory alignment specs will be "uncomfortable". The setting that you really "feel" is "toe". The factory settings allow for the fact that "rolling forces" tend to push the wheels to "toe out". With factory bushings, toe is set to "toe in". With stiffer bushings that will feel overly sensitive or "hooky" as my wife calls it. I always recommend zero toe, zero camber, and "factory" positive caster as a starting point.
No uploaded image, no error message, no nothing. Yes, I understand what the issue is... but it's enough to totally bamboozle anyone who's unfamiliar with the forum.
