Yes that would have been a lot of fun. We both would probably end up in the 10's before the night was over if the transaxles held up.
Yea, there is nothing but some small fuel injection issues holding justin back from another 60whp. some more fuel pressure or 80# injectors would be night and day.
Yea, there is nothing but some small fuel injection issues holding justin back from another 60whp. some more fuel pressure or 80# injectors would be night and day.
Or I could toss in Q16 race gas if I had to and a lot more boost.
Its a ford F150, I did kill one, some think if might be because I was running 15.5v at it all times. I raised the voltage to boost up the TRE255lph pump I had before and never turned it back down. I'm back to 14-14.4v and it seems to be holding up now. I've also wondered if that pump had a two speed circuit? Couldn't find any info on that.
And if he were to upgrade the pump rather than use larger injectors, what options would he have with an in tank pump? I have external solutions, but I personally prefer in tank.
Sure, and by stock replacement you mean they fit where in the same place and form as the original 3240 series that came with the stock V6. But if you believe the Ford unit is putting more volume to the injectors than the supra pump, but not enough to make full use of power, what in tank pump would you recommend as an upgrade to the Ford unit? Are you also using the Ford pump?
Sure, and by stock replacement you mean they fit where in the same place and form as the original 3240 series that came with the stock V6. But if you believe the Ford unit is putting more volume to the injectors than the supra pump, but not enough to make full use of power, what in tank pump would you recommend as an upgrade to the Ford unit? Are you also using the Ford pump?
yes I run the ford pump.
IDK what I would do to upgrade what I have in terms of running an external. I imagine a single 044 would be more than enough for anything I would do.
I'm not asking about external, I'm asking about internal. I don't think the 044 would fit on the Fiero fuel hanger without building a bracket for it to lay down, so ruling out the 044, any other internal alternatives? It sounds like the Supra pump will be everything I need and more, but I like to know the upgrade alternatives. The Ford pump would also be excellent if I decide to use E85, should they bring it to this part of the country.
I appreciate your help Scott.
[This message has been edited by L67 (edited 01-08-2011).]
DH, I think you need to go back and re-read what I posted. When I was talking about looks of the intake, I was talking about the plastic FWD L36 intake you were pushing. I said in that same post that the all-aluminum L26 intake looked better.
And when I was speaking about Fit, Finish, and Functionality, I wasn't talking about the car's paint job. I was talking about how neat and clean the engine swap looked and how well everything worked.
I know my posts tend to be long, but I would appreciate it if you took a little time to read exactly what I said instead of putting words in my mouth. Thanks.
And for the record, it does not take 2000hp to get a 3000lb car to run 7's. I've seen 3500lb GN's run faster with less HP. Torque - well, that's another matter.
[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 01-09-2011).]
I'm not asking about external, I'm asking about internal. I don't think the 044 would fit on the Fiero fuel hanger without building a bracket for it to lay down, so ruling out the 044, any other internal alternatives? It sounds like the Supra pump will be everything I need and more, but I like to know the upgrade alternatives. The Ford pump would also be excellent if I decide to use E85, should they bring it to this part of the country.
I appreciate your help Scott.
dual/triple is a good way to go for big intank pump options. I have a triple walbro in my friends 1300hp supra setup. it maxes out 6 100# injectors without issue, and I could probably just run dual pumps on it in reality.
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:
And when I was speaking about Fit, Finish, and Functionality, I wasn't talking about the car's paint job. I was talking about how neat and clean the engine swap looked and how well everything worked.
Neat and clean just references how much paint/powder coat you cover all of your parts with... Placement and style of parts is generally irrelivent in terms of appearance.
If I wanted to put the turbo in a different place, I would have, and I have plenty of options of turbo placement with the N/A intake believe it or not. You dont see every boat anchor turbo setup out there swapping to camaro intakes... why would I have to?
[This message has been edited by darkhorizon (edited 01-09-2011).]
Hmmm... The flow tests the guy did showed an average 4.7 cfm gain the L26 intake has over the L36 F-body intake on stock heads and an average gain of 7.5 cfm with "rough" ported heads (if I'm reading his test results right). That tells me right there I better go take that F-body intake off my engine right now and throw it in the trash because it is hurting my engine sooo much...
Flow bench test results are great, but a flow bench is far from being able to mimic an engine (and how an engine consumes air). If you guys think it is all about maximum flow and only about maximum flow, then you have a lot to learn about how engines work. We worked with the flow benches at school at length which gave us the opportunity to try different methods of porting heads, intakes, etc; and tried out different combinations of parts. Then we put engines together with these different combinations of parts, bolted them on the dyno, and tested the results. I'll tell you right now the best flowing heads and intakes didn't always produce the best dyno results. Sometimes you got the best peak power out of the best flowing heads and intakes, but this usually resulted in a lot of power under the curve that was lost which didn't make the tradeoff worthwhile.
Sure, the best flowing parts made the most peak HP at max RPM (say 6000 rpm), but how usable is this in a drag racing, road racing, or just plain straight-up street driving? The only time peak power does you any good in a racing situation is if you are running oval tracks (ie: NASCAR). If you're drag racing or road racing your car, how much time does your engine actually spend at max RPM (or in that peak power band)??? Think about it. What do you think will benefit YOU more? An engine that has a stronger power band (more power under the curve) vs. one that makes more peak HP but has less power under the curve? (Besides that, how good is the off-boost performance?) For those of you who are going to drive your car on the street, this is something that you will want to consider. If you think the best flowing intake is going to be the best for all situations, then you need to go do some reading. Pick up just about any performance engine building book out there and you are going to read in it the same thing I told you above.
A side-by-side dyno test would have given us a much better comparison as to what the true capabilties of these two intakes are, and which one is best suited for which type of application it will be used in most of the time. Until those dyno tests are done, the ONLY thing that has been proven here is the L26 intake has a 5 - 8 CFM average flow advantage over the L36 F-body intake (using the flow bench test data supplied by the CGP thread). These flow bench test results do NOT tell you which intake will work better for your particular build or swap; and it hardly proves that the L26 intake is "better". So that leaves us with opinions.
It is my opinion the L36 F-body intake works good and looks good while doing it. It also solves some unique packaging problems for those who want to run a turbo WITHOUT cutting out their trunk (in a Fiero swap).
DH has put forth his opinion that he thinks the L26 intake is superior. But if you are going to want to run a cable-op throttle body (and not the drive by wire TB the L26 intake is set up to run stock), you're going to need to buy an adapter plate. If you are going to get rid of the runner inserts that come stock inside the L26 intake (so you can convert it from a long-runner to a short runner design), then you are probably going to need the HV3 insert (which costs $200 from ZZP). The L36 F-body intake doesn't require you to buy ANYTHING other than a new set of gaskets and the intake itself in order to run it!
Look, you guys can run what you want. I've built a couple of these 3800 Turbo swaps using the F-body intake (and so have a few other people), and we know it works good everywhere it is used (on the track and on the street). If you THINK that L26 intake is going to be so much better, then run it. But a 5 - 8 cfm (average) advantage on a flow bench isn't a whole lot to brag about and it proves even less... Again, don't take my word for it - go pick up some performance engine building books and do some reading (and tell me if what you read is so much different than what I've explained above).
-ryan
[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 03-19-2011).]
I just saw that on CGP and thought it fit in this thread. I agree that only a dyno test will prove which one performs better at WOT. Everyone can use what they want. I'm glad you are happy with what you have used, and that others are as well, equally I am glad that other people are happy with the L36/L26 manifold. Either way, a turbo 3800 is a huge improvement over the stock Fiero engine, can't we all just get along?
------------------ 11.425 @115.60 Best 60' 1.543 seconds 3800 S/C 4T65E
They are both great intakes and they give you a wide range of possibility with your swap. I'm sure any disadvantage is going to be minimal and it could always be compensated with more boost or a different turbo. It's not going to be worth it to anyone to change intakes for just for the hp difference.
side note: Adapter plate= free HV3 = price of a tube of caulk.
Wait, you mean you can make your own intake insert using caulk? Does it use a whole small tube? or one of the big ones? Do you have pictures of this?
Are you not worried about the caulk breaking up?
Oh and Darth was talking figuratively about the cost of the adapter and insert, just because you "got" yours for "free" doesn't mean the mass public, aka the people you are telling that your way of doing things is best, will be able to do that, and they need to not assume you can get adapter plates for free.
Absolutely NOT! I apologize if I gave that impression.
quote
I just saw that on CGP and thought it fit in this thread. I agree that only a dyno test will prove which one performs better at WOT. Everyone can use what they want. I'm glad you are happy with what you have used, and that others are as well, equally I am glad that other people are happy with the L36/L26 manifold. Either way, a turbo 3800 is a huge improvement over the stock Fiero engine, can't we all just get along?
Thank you for posting the link. Flow test information is nice to know, but I just wanted to point out to the casual reader that this information needs to be taken into consideration with a host of other factors.
Wait, you mean you can make your own intake insert using caulk? Does it use a whole small tube? or one of the big ones? Do you have pictures of this?
Are you not worried about the caulk breaking up?
Oh and Darth was talking figuratively about the cost of the adapter and insert, just because you "got" yours for "free" doesn't mean the mass public, aka the people you are telling that your way of doing things is best, will be able to do that, and they need to not assume you can get adapter plates for free.
I replaced the lower end with an L32, series 3 3800sc.
I tapped the L26 LIM injector holes and filled them with 3/8 npt plugs. I had to do a little trimming on the lim to get the injectors in the L32 heads. I had to bend/bang the L32 fuel rail a bit to get it over the L26 UIM.
My PCM didn't like the L32 knock sensors (or one was bad) so I put some L67 knock sensors in since I'm using '98 programing.
I miss the higher compression. There is defiantly a noticeable difference in driveablilty and butt dyno off boost. I'm sure I'll get used to it soon enough, still no slouch.
At the same boost level as the L26 it felt slower so I got a manual boost controller and turned it up to 21psi. Raised the timing to 20*. Haven't seen any KR with E85.
Injectors are due to be upgraded. I'm hitting a 22-23 IPW with fuel pressure being 73-75psi. The wideband is holding steady at 11:2 afr (gas scale). As long as I stay under 13:1 I should be ok, but it would be nice to have the headroom.
The Spec stage 5 clutch is still working great.
I put two 245/45-17 Nitto Nt555R drag radials on the back. They hold the power on the ground sooo much better than the Azenis, but they are a little sloppy around corners. Rain performance is about the same between the two.
I unnecessarily changed my fuel pump to a Deatschwerks DW300 fuel pump, but now I can run more fuel pressure.
This thing sure is a blast to drive!
add: I changed over the ignitions components from the l26 to l32 and was pulling my hair out trying to fix misfires/blow out. I don't know why this L32 was giving me so much trouble. I had to replace a wire and I bought some XP103 iridium plugs. I had to gap those all the way down to .025" to get it cleaned up. I'm still getting random misfires on #3 under some cruise conditions that wont go away no matter what gap/plug/wire/coil I use. Its not noticeable but it shows up on the scan. ------------------ Turbo3800E85 5spd spec5 11.53@126.7
[This message has been edited by Justinbart (edited 05-09-2011).]
I put two 245/45-17 Nitto Nt555R drag radials on the back. They hold the power on the ground sooo much better than the Azenis, but they are a little sloppy around corners. Rain performance is about the same between the two.
It was a night and day difference going from the Azenis to the Nittos as far as dry weather grip. Good choice.
------------------ '88 GT- 3800 Turbo 11.367@121.03mph FOR SALE GM Tuners
As long as I stay under 13:1 I should be ok, but it would be nice to have the headroom.
Actually, the leanest you would ever want to run a boosted engine (during boost) is 12.0:1 AFR. 13.0:1 AFR is the leanest you would ever want to run an N/A engine at WOT.
Not to highjack your thread but I have some turbo questions for you guys.
I ran a turbo on my 3.4 and the heat became a huge issue. Turbo had oil & coolant lines, and the coolant would quickly heat, and the oil would also. Often the oil woud hit 200F. By comparison the 3800sc I have now, I can drive all around and never need to turn on the radiator fan, and the oil has yet to even see 160.
I know there different engines, but there was just too much heat.
Actually, the leanest you would ever want to run a boosted engine (during boost) is 12.0:1 AFR. 13.0:1 AFR is the leanest you would ever want to run an N/A engine at WOT.
Seems like I read somewhere that the EVO guys are making the most power at 13.5:1 on E85, of course the engines are apples and oranges...
I have no idea what my oil temps are. I don't run any restrictors in my oil line. I'm using mobile 5w40 turbo diesel oil. I think it has a flash point at 400*. ------------------ Turbo3800E85 5spd spec5 11.53@126.7
[This message has been edited by Justinbart (edited 05-09-2011).]
If using 100% gasoline, you don't want your AFR's going any leaner than 12.0:1 on a turbo or supercharged engine, period. I don't like to see them running any leaner than 11.5:1 myself. I've spent a lot of time on the dyno and found out there isn't much at all to gain by running the engine leaner than 11.5:1 anyway (most of the time I've only been able to find single digit HP and TQ increases when leaning it out to the extreme amount I felt comfortable with). It is just plain safer to run it richer, especially when you're working with stock engine internals.
While the stoichiometric (chemically ideal) air/fuel mixture ratio for gasoline is approximately 14.7:1, with ethanol (I’m assuming 100%) it is around 9.79:1. As you know, E85 contains 15% gasoline, so you've got a little math to do. PLUS, you need to know what signal voltage your O2 sensor (and/or wideband O2) is going to be outputting when you're using E85 vs. gasoline; and/or if that is going to skew your dash AFR display readings. When I bought my wideband O2 setup, it came with a paper (that I can't find at the moment) that listed all the common fuels used in combustion engines and what the optimum AFR was for each type of fuel.
Given all the problems the 3800's had with popping piston ring lands (when people have run lean w/ boost), I don't think I would take a chance at running at lean as you (Justin) and DH are suggesting. But you guys can do what you want with your own cars.
I'm just not seeing what benefit tuning the engine within an inch of its life is going to give me when it is only going to result in miniscule power gains considering the potential problems (or engine part failures) it could cause.
I agree with Darth, I've been beating the hell out of my car on 20+ psi with 11.5 gas afrs for years, even back when it was SC'd. This block has taken a beating over the years since I had it, and it wasn't exactly low mileage when I obtained it... I don't see the point of pushing my tuning options when it comes to fuel OR timing. Stay conservative and stay driving, imo.
13.5:1 AFR on E85 is still quite a bit more liquid mass going into the motor than I would be putting in with 93 (that would never be ran leaner than 11.5 in anyones motor).
I would not particularly say it is a great idea to run up in this area.. I seem to blow out spark a bit more than normal at this afr... but the car runs well, without any knock or power drops.
If using 100% gasoline, you don't want your AFR's going any leaner than 12.0:1 on a turbo or supercharged engine, period.
Is main benefit of this to cool the combustion chamber? What else is all that extra fuel doing? If so, wouldn't that number vary based on intercooler ability? For that matter, could water injection allow much closer to stoich ratios with the boosted engine?
[This message has been edited by LZeppelin513 (edited 05-25-2011).]
Is main benefit of this to cool the combustion chamber? What else is all that extra fuel doing? If so, wouldn't that number vary based on intercooler efficacy? For that matter, could water injection allow much closer to stoich ratios with the boosted engine?
No, there is just no advantage to running leaner than 11.7ish on a turbo 3800 running 9x octane. A better intercooler will let you run more airflow.
Bump, any updates? Plan on any 1/4 mile runs soon?
I don't think there is anything to up date. I haven't been to the track. If I go, it will probably be a spur of the moment type of thing. I will more than likely go to US131 if ZZP does another track rental in late summer. I'll be sure to post when I do go, good or bad.
Another trans bites the dust. I don't know exactly what broke but its making some clunking noise. I think it might be something with the diff. It makes the noise in any gear, clutch in or out, engine on or off rolling down the road.
If it's not an easy fix then I'll try my luck with a F23.
This project is funded by my winnings at a circle track spectator drags over the last couple of months. So its basically free to me. Scott posted some videos a while ago. Here is the one from last weekend. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERK_krZfxiU I may put it in the video section.
Oh my gosh HAHAH!!!! Great video. I wonder if we have tracks like this around where I live. All the tracks I know of are dirt tracks for sprint cars and stuff.
