Thanks for the support..Moving a bit slower then I want, need to spend some money to get it moving... fuel system, cooling system, brake system, HVAC need to be completely redone $$$$. Good news, almost done the rear suspension...
Really like what you have done to overcome the obstacles of fitting this engine. I am also in the process of fitting an m73 into my fiero though a bit differently to the way you have. What are you using for engine management I am using megasquirt. Here is a link to my build hope you dont mind.
Still poking away on car...Bought lots of parts lately: New Brake calipers (found locally $65 ea front, $100 ea rear, last ones in warehouse - discontinued) Rotors and pads SST brake hoses Front Ball Joints and Tie Rods
B&M Shifter
Fuel Pump - went with AC Delco EP381 (from Summit racing)
SST Exhaust tips (2.5" inlet x 4.0" outlet, dual tip)
Just ordered 2x Honda Civic aluminum dual core radiators (will be install similar to the real countach. 2x Civic rads have more surface area then Fiero rad and BMW rad used for the V12.)
Lots of exhaust bits.
Have Exhaust sorted out Rear suspension sorted out Shifter almost sorted, just need to make a couple brackets
Next:
-Finish dropping Drivers floor pan -Set up Fuel System -Connect engine harness -Set up Brake system............Man this is moving Slowly....
Originally posted by Will: This setup is going to put a lot of bending load on the rod-ends... How big are they?
I wouldn't run it like that... I'd put the shock lower pivot right on the knuckle if possible.
I agree, but the way it looks from the pics is that the wide wheels wont fit over a relocated shock? Larger joints would be better, but an insert would need to be made to go inside the eye of the joint to fill the larger hole that the long bolt cant fill up. The larger joints do not come with small bolt holes that fit the long bolt. Maybe this is why he chose this size joint?
I also think the nut welded onto the lower A arm to mount the joint is to little to hold the kind of stress that will be inflicted on them. You may want to look into a threaded sleev with at least 2" of threads. The sleeve can be run inside the A arm and rose bud welded or replace a section of the lower A arm.
[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 05-09-2012).]
It would require reworking the UCA (possibly from scratch), but if the UCA went to the outside of the top of the knuckle and attached to a bracket that bolted to the camber bolt holes, the spring/shock could them be inside the knuckle on the other end of said bracket. That would keep the shock well inboard, connected directly to the knuckle and still allow high offset wheels.
Seems to me that the bending loads you reference would transfer back to the dual connections at the inner end of the control arms, not focus on a single twisting point. Am I missing something?
Ya I would be very surprised if those rod ends bend, these are 1/2"-20UNF hardened steel bought from a stock car/dirt track race parts supplier...Rod end has a proof load of 120000psi, Yield strength 130000psi, tensile strength 150000psi and a shear load of 14400 lbs thru the threads, static radial load of 12224 lbs. The wheel is pushing up on the knuckle which is attached to the lower suspension arm by TWO (2) rod ends (which splits the load x 2). The rod ends are attached to the lower are by a 1.75" long grade 8 coupling nut inserted 1.38" into a 1 x 1 x 1/8 wall HSS structural steel tube and welded. There is no way in hell the arm is bending and as for the rod end, the bending moment from the treaded nut to the center of the rod end is about 3/4 if an inch...over estimated car weight at that corner = 750Lbs/2 (2 rod ends) = 375Lbs/rod end. I use a similar set up on my lotus 7 replica but used a 1/2 nut welded to a 3/4 Dia x 0.065 wall round tube and drove that for 4 years no issues.
As for moving the coilover out, No, it would interfere with caliper and also manufacture recommended angle for mounting coilovers between 70°-90°, I'm at 70° now.
I'm not redesigning my suspension, because someone doesn't like the "look of it" and guessing how it was designed. With my 28+ years of mechanical design, working with Military Vehicles, Passenger loading bridges for airports and Military ships I feel very confident with my suspension design...
I would be more concerned with people swapping in 350Hp - 500hp motors into 25+ year old cradle and chassis with no extra strengthening using the 4x M12 bolts to bolt it together
" With my 28+ years of mechanical design, working with Military Vehicles, Passenger loading bridges for airports and Military ships I feel very confident with my suspension design..."
Yeah well, I gotta be honest with you. I have built quite a few offroad vehicles including custom suspension and everything else and have been fabricating things for myself and customers for many years and I will say that I gotta agree with the other comments. I have built everything from vehicles to motorcycles to guns to parts for turbochargers you name it. I think that single rod end tie to the upper A arm is not too great. Those pieces were designed to be supported evenly not just on one side like that. I would look to add another rod end or change it to use some other kinda mount. Also I would surely box in the frame mounts as they will probably bend that way. The lower mount for your coilover is probably good enough for a simple shock mount but that is actually going to hold the car up and yeah it is only maybe the 750 pounds you figured......when the car is just sitting!! When you go howling into a corner on a twisty road you can probably triple that figure at least. I realize you put some thought into this and that you are limited as to where your coilover mounts can go but that to me is not sufficient mounting. If you intended to mount it there you should have made the lower A arm wider in that spot to tie it directly into the structure. Your welds look kinda sloppy but at least appear to be in the right places and should be strong enough as long as the heat was there. Only you would know how well the metal fused because you did the welding. Personally I think the setup is a bit dodgy at best. Are you using a flux core welder here? Are you sure you are getting enough penetration on the welds. I do not see anywhere that you rosette welded anything, are the hex stock pieces just butt welded in or are they going into the rectangular tubing a ways. If they are you should have drilled and rosette welded them in place. Are all these joints just butt joints? If they are you need to at least put some mending plates or fish plates over the joints in case one of the welds fail. I realize this is probably coming across as being negative and possibly worse but this is your life and others lives on the road we are talking about here. If these parts fail not only are you going to wreck your cool lambo kit car but you may kill someone else in the process. Let me put it to you this way... I have been Tig welding and fabbing parts for a very long time and I gotta say that you would be very surprised at how much stress many of these components receive. Those parts you quoted tolerances for are all fine and dandy but that is only if they are installed in a specific way. Did you weld these in a jig? Are you relying on the adjustability of the rod ends to get everything square and straight?
I am probably going to regret this post because I usually try to be positive about things and I really hate to be critical of other peoples work but I am saying these things because I do not want to see anything bad happen to a fellow fiero owner. Your build is pretty cool and the engine in that thing should be monstrous I am just saying that maybe you should really examine this suspension setup a bit more. Maybe have the folks at the race shop you bought those parts from come over and look at it for you and get their opinion. Well I guess I am done here and I am quite sure I probably pissed you off but I am willing to live with that. You have quite a project going on here and I wish you the best of luck with it. Please be careful for your sake and others.... Peace
Ya I would be very surprised if those rod ends bend, these are 1/2"-20UNF hardened steel bought from a stock car/dirt track race parts supplier...Rod end has a proof load of 120000psi, Yield strength 130000psi, tensile strength 150000psi and a shear load of 14400 lbs thru the threads, static radial load of 12224 lbs. The wheel is pushing up on the knuckle which is attached to the lower suspension arm by TWO (2) rod ends (which splits the load x 2). The rod ends are attached to the lower are by a 1.75" long grade 8 coupling nut inserted 1.38" into a 1 x 1 x 1/8 wall HSS structural steel tube and welded. There is no way in hell the arm is bending and as for the rod end, the bending moment from the treaded nut to the center of the rod end is about 3/4 if an inch...over estimated car weight at that corner = 750Lbs/2 (2 rod ends) = 375Lbs/rod end. I use a similar set up on my lotus 7 replica but used a 1/2 nut welded to a 3/4 Dia x 0.065 wall round tube and drove that for 4 years no issues.
As for moving the coilover out, No, it would interfere with caliper and also manufacture recommended angle for mounting coilovers between 70°-90°, I'm at 70° now.
I'm not redesigning my suspension, because someone doesn't like the "look of it" and guessing how it was designed. With my 28+ years of mechanical design, working with Military Vehicles, Passenger loading bridges for airports and Military ships I feel very confident with my suspension design...
I would be more concerned with people swapping in 350Hp - 500hp motors into 25+ year old cradle and chassis with no extra strengthening using the 4x M12 bolts to bolt it together
This is your baby, I am not the guy that is going to put it down. That is NOT why I posted. I posted a bit of advice based on some pics. They may say a 1,000 words but obviusly, not the whole story.
I just wish I had more advice from other perspectives on some of the projects I have done. Could have saved me a lot of time and even some money.
Have fun with your project, I realy like the intake logo.
Thanks Pete for your comments, I understand what you are trying to say and appreciate it. I know my welds are not always pretty but as we know a pretty weld is not necessary a good weld...I tend to over do my welds ie put larger welds or multipal passes. I have from time to time had some test coupons test at work and were consistently ugly but good. yes made a jig to weld arms. All welds are v groove no butt welds as we know but welds only get about 0.1" perpetration Upper rod end is 5/8, the knuckle arm is offset so with the upper rod end location as is it is centered to the knuckle
Re ran numbers on bending of lower rod ends using 2.5 g load and a fixed connection, which would be a much higher stress than a coilover dampened load and got 72000psi and the rod end is rated for 130000psi so a safety factor of 1.8 which will be higher because of the coilover. I will re do the numbers on the whole suspension
Hey man thanks for NOT jumping down my throat. I am just trying to help. I figured you v grooved the tubing or at least hoped you did to get the most penetration and that is fine however I would really consider carefully plating or fishplating the joints or maybe even the whole assembly on each arm. That way you can really tie it all together. At the least I would make some gussets or plates to breach the multiple direction joints for safety. It will go a long ways to making it safer and actually strengthens the whole thing. Again I would at least box in those frame mounts to keep them from bending and I would also look closely at that top mount and see if you can do something that relies on more than one single bolt in shear like that. It is after all your car and you can do whatever you want with it these are just suggestions. I kinda envy you having the nads to take on a lambo build and doing a v12 conversion and making the entire rear structure from scratch. Good luck with it and peace
Hi, great build! i started one of these kits a few years ago and due to lack of time, i sold it off. i must say i love reading through this build. awesome work, love it!
Ya I would be very surprised if those rod ends bend, these are 1/2"-20UNF hardened steel bought from a stock car/dirt track race parts supplier...Rod end has a proof load of 120000psi, Yield strength 130000psi, tensile strength 150000psi and a shear load of 14400 lbs thru the threads, static radial load of 12224 lbs. The wheel is pushing up on the knuckle which is attached to the lower suspension arm by TWO (2) rod ends (which splits the load x 2). The rod ends are attached to the lower are by a 1.75" long grade 8 coupling nut inserted 1.38" into a 1 x 1 x 1/8 wall HSS structural steel tube and welded. There is no way in hell the arm is bending and as for the rod end, the bending moment from the treaded nut to the center of the rod end is about 3/4 if an inch...over estimated car weight at that corner = 750Lbs/2 (2 rod ends) = 375Lbs/rod end. I use a similar set up on my lotus 7 replica but used a 1/2 nut welded to a 3/4 Dia x 0.065 wall round tube and drove that for 4 years no issues.
As for moving the coilover out, No, it would interfere with caliper and also manufacture recommended angle for mounting coilovers between 70°-90°, I'm at 70° now.
I'm not redesigning my suspension, because someone doesn't like the "look of it" and guessing how it was designed. With my 28+ years of mechanical design, working with Military Vehicles, Passenger loading bridges for airports and Military ships I feel very confident with my suspension design...
I would be more concerned with people swapping in 350Hp - 500hp motors into 25+ year old cradle and chassis with no extra strengthening using the 4x M12 bolts to bolt it together
This is how the radial load is applied. You're loading the rod end perpendicular to this direction.
You say the moment arm from the center of the spherical bearing to the nut is 3/4". With 375# of load, that's applying 280 inlbs of torque to the 1/2" shank just sitting on the ground. Dynamic loading from hitting a pothole in the middle of a corner could easily be 5 times that... So you'll be applying more than 1000 intbs of bending load to a piece of hardened 1/2" threaded rod. All I ask is that you post pics of the failed units once you get the car on the road
Regarding the coil over, I didn't say to move it out. I said to attach it to the knuckle. There's more than one way to skin a cat.
For example:
Position the unit inside the upper control arm like this, except instead of attaching to the lower control arm, attach it to the top of the knuckle via a bracket that will bolt to the knuckle via the camber bolt holes.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 05-10-2012).]
Originally posted by Will: You say the moment arm from the center of the spherical bearing to the nut is 3/4". With 375# of load, that's applying 280 ftlbs of torque to the 1/2" shank just sitting on the ground. Dynamic loading from hitting a pothole in the middle of a corner could easily be 5 times that... So you'll be applying more than 1000 fltbs of bending load to a piece of hardened 1/2" threaded rod.
Will I know it's a dynamic load that's why in my calculations I use 2.5 g to multiply the forces (which we use for the military vehicles) and using a fixed beam senario, which would see a lot more bending stress than dynamic.
Position the unit inside the upper control arm like this, except instead of attaching to the lower control arm, attach it to the top of the knuckle via a bracket that will bolt to the knuckle via the camber bolt holes.
Forgive my lack of knowledge on this subject, but what's to be gained by attaching the coilover to the knuckle instead of the LCA (besides stronger mounting points)? Just looking to learn some more about all of this.
By attaching the coilover to the knuckle, you take the weight-load off of the LCA and the links from the knuckle to the LCA, leaving only axial loads on the LCA links.
Note: this is in response to the previous question, I don't know enough about engineering to critique the builder or to comment on the design. I'm just excited to see it when it's done.
Here You Go Lambo88, my Brother who is a Custom engine builder used to buy Strange axels but the Owner died and I guess the kid had no interest in building them..... there Contact info is near the Bottom.....I Hope this Helps you, have a Gr8 day and "GOD" Bless GW www.dutchmanaxles.com/produ...ring-axle-shaft-pair
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