So is this other fiero going to be used for mockup purposes only?
The reason I ask is the more fieros you have, the more fiero projects will be started and available time/$$$ for them will then be shared. I am as guilty of this as the rest... just a word of caution.
Originally posted by fieroguru: So is this other fiero going to be used for mockup purposes only?
The reason I ask is the more fieros you have, the more fiero projects will be started and available time/$$$ for them will then be shared. I am as guilty of this as the rest... just a word of caution.
To start with, yes. I'll be using it to fit pieces that will go onto the fastback. I'll be using its cradle for the LS4/F40 mount, and once everything is set up there, put the LS4 up in the 87. It's way too hot for me to work on the car today, in any likely possibility, but as soon as I get the car in the garage, I'll be pulling door panels and dash, to start working on those pieces for the 87. And I'll be working on getting the Caddy column mounted up and working in the 85, before putting it in the 87.
I also don't have much room in the garage to do all the work and keep both cars in it at all times. And I'm already pretty well into the LS4's rebuild. If I didn't have an LS4 yet, I might have considered restoring the 85 first and getting it running, and just keeping the 87 torn down in the garage while I do that build, but since I got engine/trans/etc... first, it's not happening that way.
I've also got enough other projects going on at the moment, which don't involve cars at all.
Just got the 85 GT delivered and unloaded. Will post some pics tomorrow, when it's not totally dark out. Hopefully the heat won't be overbearingly bad, and I can get my garage cleaned up enough to get it pulled in along side the 87. Needs some cleaning, and I'll be getting the teardown started as well, so I can get her cleaned and work on fitting parts for the 87 build.
Well, I at least got my passenger mirror fixed on the 87 now. Pulled the glass out of one side of the 85, and stole the little plastic adjusting rod for it.
Another insanely hot day today, so probably won't be able to get anything done really. Tried to get her pushed over in front of the garage, so I could start getting her cleaned up and ready to pull the cradle out of, but she doesn't seem to want to move very far.
spend any time on www.ls1tech.com? I have 2 user names on there, this one, and a much more active one. This one lets me play dumb. Anyway, the TR220 gives great performance in 5.3L combos, some guy with an automatic was posting 350 rwhp with it. And he was using un-ported 706 heads, which aren't as good as your 243 or 799 heads. But since you're after mpg, I'd say the smallest Lunati VooDoo cam would be a better start. That or the TR Old Man Cam.
No new progress today either, really. Let the fan run in my garage for a while though, to try and get some of the hot air out. It was much hotter in the garage, than it was outside, tonight. Not having luck pushing the 85 by myself either. Not sure if it's the tires being low on air, or the trans being annoying, but I can get it rolling about a foot forward and all it wants to do is rock backward at that point. Ground is flat, and I could push the 87 around like it was a go-kart, in my drive. And not enough room to get another car behind it and push with that, so will have to get some help to get her moved over to the garage.
Been shopping around on-line for a cam though. Lots of interesting sounding LSx cam videos on YouTube, though not really many cam changes in LS4 cars. Trying to figure out what a good grind would be that sounds good (not too lopey), and nets a nice balance between power and economy.
theres a company i was reading the other day that gets 500+ WHP out of a stock LS4 with their bolt-on tuned turbo kit, it sells for $5500
(correction on the price, i was incorrect on the low side)
[This message has been edited by stickpony (edited 07-31-2010).]
theres a company i was reading the other day that gets 500+ WHP out of a stock LS4 with their bolt-on tuned turbo kit, it sells for like 4-5 grand
That is probably the "cartuning" turbo kit and there have been a few installed. It is pretty much a bolt on kit for a stock LS4 and currently isn't compatible with the Thorley headers for the LS4. Running a turbo LS4 would be quite fun!
Originally posted by stickpony: theres a company i was reading the other day that gets 500+ WHP out of a stock LS4 with their bolt-on tuned turbo kit, it sells for like 4-5 grand
spend any time on www.ls1tech.com? I have 2 user names on there, this one, and a much more active one. This one lets me play dumb. Anyway, the TR220 gives great performance in 5.3L combos, some guy with an automatic was posting 350 rwhp with it. And he was using un-ported 706 heads, which aren't as good as your 243 or 799 heads. But since you're after mpg, I'd say the smallest Lunati VooDoo cam would be a better start. That or the TR Old Man Cam.
I haven't joined the forum to post or anything, yet. I've ended up there many times though, when searching for some particular LSx information, in trying to decide what avenues to take for different parts of my build.
The main reason I need a cam is that the stock LS4 grind makes absolutely no sense without DoD hardware, since the DoD lobes are ground different than the non-DoD ones. Having the different valve lift on those 4 cylinders will be somewhat annoying, I think. But since I'm going to have to replace the cam for those reasons anyway, I figured I might as well poke around and see what options there are to get me the sound qualities I want, with the desirable performance/efficiency compromise.
Sound must come second to torque and mileage. You can always change mufflers until you get a sound you can live with, but any cam that'll give a choppy, race-car idle, is not going to approach 30 mpg. We don't choose LS4s for sound, anyway. If you were building for sound, you'd have a carbureted 350 with a huge nasty full-race cam.
Sound must come second to torque and mileage. You can always change mufflers until you get a sound you can live with, but any cam that'll give a choppy, race-car idle, is not going to approach 30 mpg. We don't choose LS4s for sound, anyway. If you were building for sound, you'd have a carbureted 350 with a huge nasty full-race cam.
I never said I wanted it to sound like a race car.
I'd actually like to have it sound close ot a stock Fiero 2.8. But I'm also going with a full length exhaust, rather than the short setup with cats only, like most all the other LS4s in Fieros. I'm going to have to make custom headers and y-pipe, since the stock setup dumps out the rear. It shouldn't be too hard to get close to the sound I want, with the power/efficiency I want. I'll probably end up with a stock LS1 grind, or maybe the LS Hot Cam. I just wish I could get this old Dyno Shop program I have sitting here, working, so I could compare a couple different grinds. Or if I knew the math to use, I could just write an app pretty quickly, to do it. And if I had all the lookup tables for calculating the pulse width for the injectors, I could figure a pretty accurate MPG value for any trip in the car. But alas, I haven't got all the math in my head. :-/
I've yet to see anything good about the LS HOT cam. If you're really serious about the stock Ls1 cam, I have a spare, in excellent condition, from an '01 Z28 SS. PM me your idea of a fair price.
We used a set of Edelbrock LS shorty headers for the LS4 swap and modified them. The hd 4 spd auto is big and you should have a much easier time with e F40 trans. The cross over was straight forward and then follows the stock Fiero exhaust with a 2.5" high flow cat then a stainless spintech muffler. Isn't much louder than my 3.4 with a borla but deeper and meaner.
Originally posted by 3.4Turbo: We used a set of Edelbrock LS shorty headers for the LS4 swap and modified them. The hd 4 spd auto is big and you should have a much easier time with e F40 trans. The cross over was straight forward and then follows the stock Fiero exhaust with a 2.5" high flow cat then a stainless spintech muffler. Isn't much louder than my 3.4 with a borla but deeper and meaner.
Which LS4 swap? Pictures/video? Rickady88GT's, Dogcreeks, and blkcofy's all use the stock LS4 tubes and exit out the rear. I haven't seen any using a full exhaust setup yet. Would love to see the pics (build thread?) and video of it.
The F40 is a little smaller than the 4t65e-HD, but the shift assembly on top is still huge. Shouldn't be too hard to route around, even with cables hooked up, though.
Originally posted by Isolde: I've yet to see anything good about the LS HOT cam. If you're really serious about the stock Ls1 cam, I have a spare, in excellent condition, from an '01 Z28 SS. PM me your idea of a fair price.
I just won one on eBay, with the valve springs, out of a Silverado SS (LQ9 had the same cam as LS1), and it was probably much lower than a reasonable price for just the cam. If it had gone way up, I would have poked you for sure though. Thanks, anyway.
Thats the first LS4 fiero install I have seen that didn't use the stock manifolds and it proves there is adequate room on the 88's to run the exhaust under the oil pan...
With the F40, there will be alot more room down below and a faily low cost header setup could be made with some LS(x) flanges and this set of mandrel bent tubes: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymot...fPartsQ5fAccessories
With these you should be able to trim them at the tops of the tube to ensure clearing the axle/crossmember and trim the bottom to make room for the collector and 90 elbow to go under the cradle. Then once the two sides merge you could go into a single muffler keeping the stock truck... or cut out the bottom of the truck and run a cat before the muffler.
It would be a good mid length header setup for about $160 + welding and the rest of the exhaust. This probably works for the SBC guys as well.
[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 07-28-2010).]
I had such great success with '00 Z28 SS exhaust manifolds that I think you should consider the Edelbrock shorties for that app. I was test-fitting the LM7 with a 1/4"-thick steel adapter plate, the '06 F40-MT2, and the '84 cradle in my '84 Fiero, but those exhaust manifolds were a truly excellent fit. I had pics on the other Fiero forum.
Originally posted by fieroguru: Thats the first LS4 fiero install I have seen that didn't use the stock manifolds and it proves there is adequate room on the 88's to run the exhaust under the oil pan...
With these you should be able to trim them at the tops of the tube to ensure clearing the axle/crossmember and trim the bottom to make room for the collector and 90 elbow to go under the cradle. Then once the two sides merge you could go into a single muffler keeping the stock truck... or cut out the bottom of the truck and run a cat before the muffler.
It would be a good mid length header setup for about $160 + welding and the rest of the exhaust. This probably works for the SBC guys as well.
I'm planning on doing a full exhaust system, in the same layout as the stock 2.8 exhasut, similar to the pictures above with the modified shorty headers. I'll be doing custom shorty headers, and mostly custom exhaust too. I'll use the stock 07-08 GXP cat, and maybe a Spintech muffler, and C6 tips. There won't be any need to worry about cutting the trunk. I don't think any of the LS4 swaps have done so yet.
But I'll deal with figuring out the exhaust when I've got the heads milled, the engine back together, and the drivetrain mounted on a cradle. Until then, I've got plenty other things to worry about getting done first.
Got a valid inspection sticker for another year now. They didn't bleed the brakes though, or didn't bleed them properly. The driver's side rear caliper had broken the bolts somehow, and the piston wasn't wanting to screw back in. Luckily, I'd just bought the 85 GT for parts, and so I pulled the caliper off it this morning and took it up to get put on to pass the inspection. Perhaps it's time to do the LeBaron brake upgrade?
Also picked up a longer breaker bar at lunch today. Hopefully I can break the crank bolt loose with it. With the 18" bar, I just end up pulling the whole other side of the engine stand up off the floor. And the impact gun I picked up a few weeks ago doesn't seem to do much of anything other than make a lot of noise.
I believe AFR's test ride for their LS heads (Trans Am) put down 499 at the ground all motor. That was 5.7 displacement, I/H/C/LT's & full exhaust, though.
Sleeve the LS4 block to 4 1/8 and build a big bore 5.7 using the crank from a 4.8. Top it off with LS7 heads/intake and set your rev limit for "puree".
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 07-31-2010).]
Here are the pics that John sent me to show the LS Shorty headers hooked up to full Fiero exhaust:
So how far does the pipe hang below the cradle? I know my drive train is so low in the cradle that I could not run the pipe like that without a drag hazard even if I ran a 2" pipe. I don't want to assume that yours hangs down 2" + just because mine would.
Originally posted by qwikgta: Check out Corvette LS3 exhaust mani's. Archie says they work great.
Rob
They probably do, but they're block huggers and exit at the center. Neither of those are features I really want. I figure my best option is making some custom shorty headers. Depending on what I can get to fit in the Fiero's engine bay, I should be able to get some pretty nice shorties that dump at the back of the heads. And I'll also get some welding practice in.
FINALLY! Got the crank bolt loosened today, and pulled the pulley off. Didn't pull anything else off though. Only 6:00 and the mosquitos are already going nuts, thanks to the weather. Now to clean out the garage, and make room to lay internals out on the bench. Then I can pull the rest of the block and the heads apart, get everything cleaned up, and after ordering a couple more parts and new gaskets, put it all back together.
I'll be getting ARP studs for the heads, and probably ARP bolts or studs for a few other things as well. It's a bit unclear from searching around, and the information on the ARP site, which part number is the correct one to use for the GEN IV (LS2/3/4) blocks/heads though. And the annoying thing is that the 2 part #s I have to choose from, have a $200 price difference.
Hopefully I'll be able to do some work during the day, come this weekend though. New lifters and LS1 cam/springs are on their way here already. I probably won't have everything necessary to get the short block back together by the weekend, unfortunately. But now that I've finally got the cranky crank bolt and pulley off, I can start making some progress again.
Pulled some more stuff off the block today. Got the front cover, oil pump, timing chain, cam, and flywheel all off. Time to get that garage cleaned up, and the parts washer together and filled with mineral spirits.
Need to buy some things still, to get the short block back together after cleaning:
LS2/3 Oil Pump (claims on other forums that the pumps on the AFM/DoD cars starve the system when removing the DoD) Rebuild gasket kit Piston rings Cam timing gear (or double roller setup if I can find one with 4x cam gear) New crank and cam sensors
Originally posted by Isolde: Which head studs you need depends on when the block was made. What year was the donor car?
06, but the block didn't change in 07 by any documentaiton that I can see. The ECM, intake manifold, cam/crank sensors, cam gear, and reluctor wheel all did though.
What changed in the block itself? And where would one find documentation on it?
Have you checked the ARP website? Anyway, all blocks cast before the 2004 calendar year used 2 different lengths for the 11mm bolts, while all later blocks just used the shorter bolts.
Originally posted by Isolde: Have you checked the ARP website? Anyway, all blocks cast before the 2004 calendar year used 2 different lengths for the 11mm bolts, while all later blocks just used the shorter bolts.
Yeah, of course I checked the web site. I doubt any LS4s were cast before 2004 though? It was only available for 2005-2009 cars. But there are 2 different parts for post-2004 cars too. 234-4317 and 234-4319, with no real info rmation on which ones I should use, and there's a $200 price difference. The 4319 seem to be ARP 2000, but I can't find a clear description of what that actually means. (The ARP web site is pretty awful as far as web sites go.) After a little more searching, I still couldn't find any definitive information on what "ARP 2000" means, but it appears that they may just be a significantly stronger material designed for handling lots of boost or something. So I probably don't actually need those. Which is good, because I wasn't really looking forward to spending almost $500 for head bolts.
On a related note, as I was typing this reply, UPS showed up at my door with my cam/springs/lifters.
The Wave-Loc 2000 rod bolts for SBC differ from the other, older lines of rod bolts by not having sharp-edged knurling like the older versions, which are still available. That's as far as I know about the 2000 series. As for the head bolt length issue, that's ALL LSx's, including 'vettes and trucks, not just the LS4s.
The Wave-Loc 2000 rod bolts for SBC differ from the other, older lines of rod bolts by not having sharp-edged knurling like the older versions, which are still available. That's as far as I know about the 2000 series. As for the head bolt length issue, that's ALL LSx's, including 'vettes and trucks, not just the LS4s.
Yeah, I know about the length issue. I doubt the difference in knurling is the only difference. Because that's not a very good excuse to double the price. It looks like the 2000 are supposedly a lot stronger than the others, and handle large amounts of boost better. Since I don't plan on going turbo or blower, the non-2000 should be fine. Heck, new stock bolts would probably be enough, since I'm not trying to get an insane amount of power out of it.
Rickaddy, The pipe running in the tunnel under the cradle is 2.5" ovalized tubing I had custom made by the spintech folks. Doesn't hang down far at all. They become round as they curve back up for the joint at either end. John
