Rickaddy, The pipe running in the tunnel under the cradle is 2.5" ovalized tubing I had custom made by the spintech folks. Doesn't hang down far at all. They become round as they curve back up for the joint at either end. John
I like the idea, so just how much does it go below the cradle? I considered the oval pipe on another swap before, but this one is even tighter than the other swap. My oil pan is literally a half inch of hitting the cradle right there. And the oil pan looks like it does not have enough room for a pipe? At least I did not think it did
Just ordered a dual mass flywheel off a Saab 9-3. Going to try using it with the LS4 for the F40 bellhousing. They didn't have the clutch and pressure plate, or I would have gotten them too.
Made some progress on getting my garage cleaned up, and making room for the second car today. Got my parts washer together too. Just gotta get some solvent for it, and some assembly lube, and I can start getting stuff cleaned up and back together.
Got the flywheel today. It came off a Saab 9-3 with a 6-speed. It's got a different bolt pattern than the one that came on the LS4, and it seems to be a bit smaller as well. Funny thing, is that it's also different from the pics of the flywheel that Joseph Upson posted in his 6 spd thread. It is the dual mass flywheel though. Guess I'll have to find another one.
Got the flywheel today. It came off a Saab 9-3 with a 6-speed. It's got a different bolt pattern than the one that came on the LS4, and it seems to be a bit smaller as well. Funny thing, is that it's also different from the pics of the flywheel that Joseph Upson posted in his 6 spd thread. It is the dual mass flywheel though. Guess I'll have to find another one.
Wish I had known you had planned to purchase this flywheel for your swap so that I could have advised against it. The G6 flywheel by design doesn't lend itself to being redrilled due to the upper half so if it's similar in that respect it certainly will not work. Another important fact is that the flywheel is probably torque limited like the G6 flywheel as well and would probably start to slip somewhere near 300 lb/ft as a manufacturer representative stated via email it can handle about an additional 10% increase in torque above its vehicle rating. I had a chevy V8 flywheel turned down to V6 diameter specs some years ago pretty cheap, that would probably be a good alternative for you. The thickness of the V8 flywheel might be just right for the 6 speed, not sure what it is but you want about 1.62" top to bottom give or take.
The Saab flywheel may have the same bolt pattern as the Ecotec and 3.6L DOHC motor.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 08-13-2010).]
Originally posted by Joseph Upson: The Saab flywheel may have the same bolt pattern as the Ecotec and 3.6L DOHC motor.
The Saab 9-3s are all Ecotec now.
I'm not worried about it not working with the LS4. I plan to do a 3.6 DOHC in my other car anyway. So if I end up getting a 3.6 that doesn't have the flywheel already, then it won't be a big issue since I've already got one.
Still need to collect a few parts and get a bit more cleanup done in the garage before getting the short block rebuilt. Rain and other chores have kept me from getting much done yet.
I pulled the driver side interior door panel out of my 85 GT yesterday though, and started getting the insulation, carpet, and vinyl pulled off, so I can work on getting my custom door panels made up. Pulled the one off the 87 today as well to do a little measuring with the window all the way down, as I start looking for a good set of component speakers to use in them.
Did some searching for plant based resin to use with fiberglass and carbon fiber, today as well. Didn't find much, but a friend found EcoPoxy for me. A little pricey, but looks promising. Using it for all the composite work I'll end up doing on the car, and some eco-friendly wiring if I can find any, seems like a good thing to do, especially since I'm dropping a V8 in it. Balance in all things, as it were.
Still need to collect a few parts and get a bit more cleanup done in the garage before getting the short block rebuilt. Rain and other chores have kept me from getting much done yet.
I pulled the driver side interior door panel out of my 85 GT yesterday though, and started getting the insulation, carpet, and vinyl pulled off, so I can work on getting my custom door panels made up. Pulled the one off the 87 today as well to do a little measuring with the window all the way down, as I start looking for a good set of component speakers to use in them.
Did some searching for plant based resin to use with fiberglass and carbon fiber, today as well. Didn't find much, but a friend found EcoPoxy for me. A little pricey, but looks promising. Using it for all the composite work I'll end up doing on the car, and some eco-friendly wiring if I can find any, seems like a good thing to do, especially since I'm dropping a V8 in it. Balance in all things, as it were.
are your boring the sleeves out at all and doing larger pistons while you are rebuilding the shortbock? i heard the 5.3L can be bored to liek 5.6 or 5.7L, no?
Originally posted by stickpony: are you boring the sleeves out at all and doing larger pistons while you are rebuilding the shortbock? i heard the 5.3L can be bored to liek 5.6 or 5.7L, no?
It can be bored to 5.7 without resleeving I believe, but no I'm keeping it at 5.3. Most I'll be doing to the pistons/cylinders is a quick ball hone and new rings if necessary. The cylinder walls look like they are in great shape still though.
It can be bored to 5.7 without resleeving I believe, but no I'm keeping it at 5.3. Most I'll be doing to the pistons/cylinders is a quick ball hone and new rings if necessary. The cylinder walls look like they are in great shape still though.
awww.ww.... shame... might as well while you are rebuilding it
Tne real LS1s don't have the FWD bellhousing pattern that the LS4 block does. Since GM intended it to be 5.7L-capable, why not? Just for 1 more MPG? Or is it to save about $50 on good used pistons from someone who stroked their LS1? More is always better, that's why we call it more.
Originally posted by Isolde: Tne real LS1s don't have the FWD bellhousing pattern that the LS4 block does. Since GM intended it to be 5.7L-capable, why not? Just for 1 more MPG? Or is it to save about $50 on good used pistons from someone who stroked their LS1? More is always better, that's why we call it more.
Save $50 on pistons? No. Hell, I already saved more than that on the cam. Even if I could find good used pistons for $50, new rings will cost more than that, per piston. Plus the cost of boring/honing the block. Then the headwork. It would be cheaper and easier to just buy an LS1 and Archie's kit (or even just get an adapter plate made up myself. More isn't always better.
Heck, every time I talk to my dad about putting a V8 in my car, he keeps trying to talk me into just dropping a 498 big block in.
I'm not really concerned with how much it's going to end up costing to build my car how I want it, but I'm not just going to throw money into it, just to be throwing money at it. And that's pretty much all taking an LS4 out to 5.7l does for it.
Back to the interior, I've decided what I'll be doing for the door panels. Some minor details to work out still, though. I'll be taking some hints from the 2nd gen S-10 door panels. Can you say cup holders?
And I'm thinking the S-10 interior door lock/handle would fit nicely with the rest of the interior design I'll be putting in the Fiero. The doors will be getting speakers, 5-1/4" components to be exact. The mid woofers will be mounted on the door structure itself, with the door panels containing the grilles. I'm not sure exactly where I'll mount the tweeters yet, though. Either behind the upper portion of the door panel, near the handle/lock insert, or in the dash or a-pillars. Most likely, I'll end up putting them in the a-pillars though.
The door panels themselves will be molded in 3-4 separate pieces, and then fixed together. The main door panel will be one piece. The lower kick panel portion will be another, including the main speaker surround, with the cup holder/map pocket as a third piece which will be set into place inside the kick panel piece, and then 'glued' solid. The actual speaker grille will likely be a fourth piece that will bolt onto the kick panel speaker surround, using short studs.The final kick panel and speaker surround piece will then be affixed to the main door panel itself, in some way.
The arm rest/door pull from the S-10 has a nice angle that would likely fit well in the Fiero as well, but I'm not set on it yet. I may end up making a custom one, with a similar design instead, but need to work out the details on that still.
I will be pulling molds for all the pieces I make, and will offer them for sale to others who want a similar set up in their car. I will likely offer some options here as well, for those who don't want to modify their doors as much, or who don't want speakers in the doors.
Hopefully I can get a pic up showing the design I'm going for, in a bit. Likely there will be both carbon fiber and fiberglass used in the build.
Save $50 on pistons? No. Hell, I already saved more than that on the cam. Even if I could find good used pistons for $50, new rings will cost more than that, per piston. Plus the cost of boring/honing the block. Then the headwork. It would be cheaper and easier to just buy an LS1 and Archie's kit (or even just get an adapter plate made up myself. More isn't always better.
Heck, every time I talk to my dad about putting a V8 in my car, he keeps trying to talk me into just dropping a 498 big block in.
I'm not really concerned with how much it's going to end up costing to build my car how I want it, but I'm not just going to throw money into it, just to be throwing money at it. And that's pretty much all taking an LS4 out to 5.7l does for it.
why are you rebuilding the bottom end at all? i can't imagine the ls4 has that many miles on it to begin with, the engiens havent really been around that long....
Originally posted by stickpony: why are you rebuilding the bottom end at all? i can't imagine the ls4 has that many miles on it to begin with, the engiens havent really been around that long....
I'm not rebuilding the bottom end. All I'm doing is cleaning it, and changing the crank reluctor wheel to the 58x from the 24x, which requires removing the crank. And to delete the DoD, I also need to change the cam, and to use the new e67 ecm, I also need the 4x cam gear, and new cam/crank sensors. The 'rebuilding' is just a side effect of what is required to do the rest.
I'm not rebuilding the bottom end. All I'm doing is cleaning it, and changing the crank reluctor wheel to the 58x from the 24x, which requires removing the crank. And to delete the DoD, I also need to change the cam, and to use the new e67 ecm, I also need the 4x cam gear, and new cam/crank sensors. The 'rebuilding' is just a side effect of what is required to do the rest.
lovely...seems like an aweful lot of work, but alas, it is what it is, to each their own. i give you a + dobey simply for the fact that you are doing it. i have yet to see a completed ls4 with 6 speed tranny swap on here, so i look forward to seeing this done
[This message has been edited by stickpony (edited 08-24-2010).]
Originally posted by stickpony: lovely...seems like an aweful lot of work, but alas, it is what it is, to each their own. i give you a + dobey simply for the fact that you are doing it. i have yet to see a completed ls4 with 6 speed tranny swap on here, so i look forward to seeing this done
Heh, thanks. It is a lot of work, indeed. Using the new ECM allows for some better timing, lower emissions, and it's the now standard ECM on many of GM's new cars. They've basically moved all their vehicles to only 3 or 4 different ECMs at this point. As the Vette/Camaro/etc… crowds start doing more and more with the new models, and start demanding more and more capabilities, things will only get easier with the e67 ECM. I would have just gotten a newer engine that had the pieces required for that already, but all the 07+ LS4s seem to be much more expensive, and much less common, in the yards. And I got an 06 with only 10K on the clock. So yeah, the rebuild itself isn't really necessary, but the upgrades to use the new ECM require pulling it apart.
It's going to take a while, but hopefully I can get it running over the next few months, and drive her up to Carlisle, or down to Daytona, for 2011. When is the Daytona show?
I came across these turbo headers for the LS(x) family. No idea if they would fit in a fiero chassis, and too expensive ($950) to buy a set for R&D... but they might give you some ideas since you want your exhaust to be routed similar to the stock fiero. http://www.stainlessworks.n...520&products_id=1756
Originally posted by fieroguru: I came across these turbo headers for the LS(x) family. No idea if they would fit in a fiero chassis, and too expensive ($950) to buy a set for R&D... but they might give you some ideas since you want your exhaust to be routed similar to the stock fiero. http://www.stainlessworks.n...520&products_id=1756
Those definitely look too big for the Fiero bay. But thanks for the link!
Originally posted by Isolde: I'm really liking this. I hope you finish yours this way, except all 1 color.
It will be much nicer. Not sure what colors I will use in the interior yet, or if I'll do single color door panels, or two tone like the Fiero came with. There will probably be some color differences in a few places anyway, if only due to material differences.
Finally got some more work done on the motor today. Looks like I'll be doing more of a rebuild than I intended to, though. Looks like a tiny bit of metal got into some of the rod bearings, and scratched them up a bit. And the #1 rod bearing was starting to spin. Also looks like a tiny bit might have scuffed up a couple of the mains as well. I'll have to take a closer look at the cam bearings, next time I get out in the garage.
Guess I get to add more stuff to the list of things to order now.
For anyone thinking of doing a swap and wondering how much it will cost exactly, this is what they mean by planning to spend more than you plan to spend on the swap.
Finally got some more work done on the motor today. Looks like I'll be doing more of a rebuild than I intended to, though. Looks like a tiny bit of metal got into some of the rod bearings, and scratched them up a bit. And the #1 rod bearing was starting to spin. Also looks like a tiny bit might have scuffed up a couple of the mains as well. I'll have to take a closer look at the cam bearings, next time I get out in the garage.
Guess I get to add more stuff to the list of things to order now.
For anyone thinking of doing a swap and wondering how much it will cost exactly, this is what they mean by planning to spend more than you plan to spend on the swap.
damn, i thought that was supposed to be a 20k mile engine.... that blows man...
Looks like the caliper I swapped on in place of the broken one, is now itself, also having issues. The piston seems to be frozen, and even pulling the bleeder screw all the way out, it doesn't seem to relax the piston. And nobody seems to have calipers in stock, or even the rebuild kits. :-/
Rebuilt the caliper today, but now the brake warning light stays on, so I guess it got out of adjustment somehow. But the slight rubbing noise I started hearing the other day is gone now, so that's good. Fix one thing, and another thing goes wrong. It's the Fiero way.
If I had th emoney, and didn't have other stuff to deal with first, I would just have gone ahead and done the hubs, brakes, calipers, wheels, and everything else involved there, upgrade, but that will be a lot of work and very expensive. And I'd have to probably do the weidebody work at the same time, to keep the new shoes from sticking out.
Looks like I'll be doing more of a rebuild than I intended to, though.
Well that sucks. It's a story-line that repeats itself over and over in the world of used engines. As you know, I was hood-winked into buying a 100K km Northstar (yeah right!) only to find it was more like a 250K km engine. There's a lot of scamming going on out there in the scrap yards. Did you know with certainty the engine only had 10K miles? Or is that what they told you?
As for the brake light, first make sure your e-brake isn't on ... and then if that doesn't fix it, then you know you have to apply full pressure to the brake system to reset the plunger in the master cylinder in order to turn off the light, eh? Just checkin.
Originally posted by Bloozberry: Well that sucks. It's a story-line that repeats itself over and over in the world of used engines. As you know, I was hood-winked into buying a 100K km Northstar (yeah right!) only to find it was more like a 250K km engine. There's a lot of scamming going on out there in the scrap yards. Did you know with certainty the engine only had 10K miles? Or is that what they told you?
As for the brake light, first make sure your e-brake isn't on ... and then if that doesn't fix it, then you know you have to apply full pressure to the brake system to reset the plunger in the master cylinder in order to turn off the light, eh? Just checkin.
I bought it through eBay, and it was listed as having 10K miles. The tag with the VIN is somewhere in my garage still. It was from an LKQ yard. The problem with used engines more often though, is that you don't actually know anything about how the car ended up there, or how it was maintained/driven. It could have been a rollover. It could have been driven overly hard all the time. Will never know. I'm not too upset about it really, as I had to pull the crank anyway, to swap the reluctor on it. Just a few more parts I need to buy now. And when it does go in the car, it will basically be a totally brand new engine.
As for the brake light, it's not the e-brake being on, or the master plunger. It was working perfectly fine before my latest fiasco with that caliper, and was mostly fine (seemed to apply very easily and not hold as well), until I rebuild the master today. I think it just needs to be re-adjusted and the cable isn't being pulled back out all the way at release (but far enough to release pressure on the brake). I should be able to get it straightened out pretty well tomorrow.
Well bother. It seems the return spring doesn't have enough strength to fully push the lever all the way back, when the brake is disabled, so it gets stuck partially applied, Took it off, put it back on, tried getting the actuator screw adjusted a little, and still no love. Looks like I might have to take the caliper back apart, and see if I can rotate the piston 180 degrees, to see if will give a little more room for everything. Or just buy whole new calipers. I'm very close to just going with that option.
I was reading the thread on the starter for the F40/282 on the LS4. I found you comments about water pumps and LS4
And for the water pump, one might remove the LS4 manifold because it just doesn't fit in the stock Fiero bay. It's a neat trick, but it hangs off the wrong side of the engine, for being in a Fiero, and interferes with the decklid hinge. Rickady had to move the hinge in his car for the swap. And for Dogcreek's swap, they cut the neck down, closed off the hole, and moved the fill neck to the side of the head above the trans. The water manifold is neat, but it's not a good fit for a Fiero. I haven't yet finalized what I'll do for the water pump yet.
I don't know were you come up with the comment "that it just doesn't fix in the stock Fiero bay" the LS4 water pump assembly fits into the Fiero engine bay very well for a engine designed to fit into a much larger car. The mods that I did to Dogcreek's install were relatively minor. Cutting the cap off and plugging the fill point and making a new bolt on filler neck cost less than and will require way less maintenance than any home grown manifold and electric water pump you can come up with.
Good luck with what you are trying to do.
Joe Sokol
------------------ 85 SE Daily driver with a 3.4 DOHC OBD II 88 Formula/GT 4.9 Allante Intake (My Baby)
Originally posted by Fieroking: I don't know were you come up with the comment "that it just doesn't fix in the stock Fiero bay" the LS4 water pump assembly fits into the Fiero engine bay very well for a engine designed to fit into a much larger car. The mods that I did to Dogcreek's install were relatively minor. Cutting the cap off and plugging the fill point and making a new bolt on filler neck cost less than and will require way less maintenance than any home grown manifold and electric water pump you can come up with.
Yes. You modded the manifold and cut the fill neck off and moved it to the other side of the engine. The LS4 manifold does not fit without either doing that, or moving the decklid hinge (but then the fill cap is still in a rather awful spot). I wouldn't really call the engine bay on the W/A-body much larger. In fact, I believe it's actually much smaller. And GM even had to modify them a bit to fit the V8 in there; they changed the radiator and moved the fill neck to the water manifold, for example. And you must agree that it's in the wrong place for going in a Fiero, or you wouldn't have cut it off and moved it to the rear on Dogcreek's car, no?
I'm not trying to make a home grown manifold or electric pump. I'm looking for something off the shelf that will work. Something that is widely available, and if a problem develops, I can just go buy another one. I'm not sure what you mean by 'less maintenance' here, since any solution really should be zero maintennce in the first place.
Well, I cut one of my fingers up pretty bad last night, trying to work on getting my Mini fixed. And the brakes are messed up on my GT. Can't really get that fixed with only being able to use one hand, it seems. And I definitely won't be sticking my finger in a tank of solvent to clean parts for a while either, which puts the LS4 rebuild on hold. Also having trouble finding some nice pistron rings. Figure if I have to rebuild, might as well get some better ones than stock. Speed Pro seems to only 4.000" and larger bore though. Anyone know what would be good on the smaller bore engines?
Originally posted by Will: Gasoline, Oil and Blood... the fluids without which a car stops moving
What's the bore of a 5.3? 96mm?
Total Seal should be able to get you a very good ring set. Get the gapless top ring and Napier 2nd, with std oil ring.
Yeah, it's 96mm/3.78in bore. I think I finally found a Sealed Power part # that will work, last night, after searching through similar engines on the Federal Mogul site. I found the E-937K #, listed for the LM7 trucks. I think I will go with them.
Hopefully my cut will heal soon so I can clean these parts and start getting everything back together.
Well, got the caliper adjusted well enough I think. Not perfect, but it'll do for now. The e-brake seems to be behaving correctly for now. Should be able to drive it to the Farewell to Pontiac show next week. Just gotta get her cleaned up pretty good. And I really need to bleed the clutch system. Hopefully that's all it needs. And I need to check the oil level in the trans. No leaks, so it should be good.
Clutch system is acting up more than normal. Need to get it bled this week sometime, so I can take the car down to VA Beach on Saturday for the Farewell to Pontiac show, and VAFieros meet. She also needs a bath.
Getting some parts ordered for the LS4 rebuild. New bearings, rings, and ARP rod bolts should be showing up soon. As soon as my finger finishes healing, I can get back to work on that. Mineral spirits and open wounds don't mix well.
I've unfortunately also now got a totally shot clutch system, which I can't seem to get bled at all. Tried getting it bled today, but now it seems worse than before I started bleeding it. The pedal just goes straight to the floor with no pressure at all. WIth the engine running, I can't get the car in gear at all. Forward gears are like pushing against a concrete wall, and reverse just grinds. WIth the pedal all the way down, the slave rod seems to hold, and it slides back in slowly when I open the bleeder valve, but I have to assume it's not really getting much travel, since there's no pressure against the clutch pedal at all now, and it's acting like the clutch isn't grabbing at all. And I was hoping to take the car down to the Farewell to Pontiac show this coming Saturday too.
When I pulled the intake tubing out to get at the slave cylinder, I'd also discovered that it had broken open around the PCV inlet, and was starting to rip all around the tube. If it ain't one thing, it's two, right? Ended up getting some flexible intake tubing, and a 3" to 2.5" adapter, so I could get the intake system closed back up again. Just gotta make a hole in the side of it, just big enough for the PCV tube to fit in, and seal against, but it seems to work ok for now.
