I am waiting for a comment from archie... Differences aside, fiero builder to fiero builder, it would be a real shame to see him lose out on this deal.
edit.
the more I think about this situation, the more it looks like someone is going to get screwed really hard. I think the obvious solution is going to be that the "rightful owner" just accepts a payment for keen buying the car back from him... but I am not sure how that would work.
[This message has been edited by darkhorizon (edited 11-03-2010).]
Keeping titles open is very risky anymore, when you buy a car, put it in your name.
I could not agree more. I have know guys that have spent tens of thousands of dollars on cars and then go to register it in their name only to find out they cannot because the car was junked in the laws eyes or had some other issue that made it impossible to title.
I am waiting for a comment from archie... Differences aside, fiero builder to fiero builder, it would be a real shame to see him lose out on this deal.
If I was in Archie's shoes and I had been paid for my services..........I would have no comment. What purpose would it serve?
Originally posted by deezil: If I was in Archie's shoes and I had been paid for my services..........I would have no comment. What purpose would it serve?
a simple "oh well, I got paid' comment would ease the situation a tad bit at least.
I guess I still just don't know why that private info would be needed to be known? None of this this really has anything to do with him other than he was brought a car to work on, did so and even went beyond what was needed and then sent it on its way.
I am sure he gets paid before the car leaves the shop, I know I would.
Are you suggesting it's somehow legal for Keen to take possession of this car knowing that he sold it and pretending that it's still his?
Or are we now going to hear excuses from Keen about his time in Afghanistan and how he simply "forgot" that he sold it due to something like "battle fatigue"?
no i wasnt sugesting that i said i only read the summary and now i saw that he did try to pull a fast one. but had he not said it was stolen just said ya i owned it but sold it and not been able to give any comtact info it would still technically be his. i mean i dont keep contact info for people when i sell them stuff nor would i expect them to keep info on me
The only reason I deleted my posts was because my buddy wanted to be the one to break the news.
Well, if that was the actual reason then I think it was a bad decision. It would appear that most of us (possibly all of us) are sympathetic to your situation, but deleting all your posts looks kind of suspicious. It makes it look like you're now hiding something IMHO.
I saw all your posts last night (and saved them as well). They were quite informative and it's a shame they're not still posted for everyone else who missed them to see.
Well, if that was the actual reason then I think it was a bad decision. It would appear that most of us (possibly all of us) are sympathetic to your situation, but deleting all your posts looks kind of suspicious. It makes it look like you're now hiding something IMHO.
I saw all your posts last night (and saved them as well). They were quite informative and it's a shame they're not still posted for everyone else who missed them to see.
ya i agree im sypathetic to you for whats happened you bought it outright and now this **** happened. everyone makes mistakes but you shouldnt be down and out for what happened. but in the end if archie didnt get paid yet then i see a mechanics lein coming on so it wont really matter whos owns it cus it aint gettin retitled.
Well, if you have them all saved feel free to repost. I dont really have anything to hide.
Okay, as long as you don't mind. I think it makes for interesting reading in this thread.
Coming up shortly...
EDIT: Although I can look at the saved pages on my own computer and they appear just as they originally did last night, re-posting them here is turning out to be a challenge. This might take a while longer than I thought, but I'll carry on.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 11-03-2010).]
I also had a talk with SKYWAY TOWING in Renton, the place where SPC Samuel Rogers picked up the car on or around August 10, and was able to recover some more interesting documents. They seem to remember him VERY well.
Renton is not the claimed 100 miles from Ft. Lewis, and if it was you aint gonna make it there in no "hour drive". It takes me 20-25 minutes to drive from Renton to Lakewood which is a stone throw away from the base. I do the drive most Sundays.
I am waiting for a comment from archie... Differences aside, fiero builder to fiero builder, it would be a real shame to see him lose out on this deal.
edit.
the more I think about this situation, the more it looks like someone is going to get screwed really hard. I think the obvious solution is going to be that the "rightful owner" just accepts a payment for keen buying the car back from him... but I am not sure how that would work.
I can't imagine Archie - or any other business owner - would release the car to the next shop without having payment in full! I have great respect and admiration for those in the Armed Forces. I truly appreciate thier sacrifice and service to the country. If this pans out to be true, I will be highly dissapointed in comanderkeen. Don't let one bad apple spoil the bunch!
Well, if you have them all saved feel free to repost. I dont really have anything to hide.
It turned out that trying to "quote" your posts, including your images from off my hard drive, was more involved than I realized. So here's the text of your posts. Sorry I couldn't include the images (without a lot of extra work), so I'm hoping my description of them will suffice.
quote
Originally posted by XzotikGT:
Post 1
Nice build for sure SPC Samuel P Rogers. Although I do applaud you serving your country overseas....the rest of your story is a unremarkeable amount of crap. Nobody stole your car 1 year ago. So, stop playing the OH POOR ME role. I have no pity on you and you will be handled accordingly.
Post 2
< four pictures of incriminating documents >
Its a small world Huh SPC Samuel C Rogers? Remember me? Funny how I have a signed and dated title form the Fiero you sold to me 2 years ago, that you claim got stolen a year ago......
Need to jog your memory? Remmber one snowy day just before Christmas two years ago? Yeah, the guy you sold the car to because you werer deploying and didnt have anywherer to keep it? Well, I guess you forgot how a civilian got on to the secure military base in the first place. Two years ago...........
Post 3
Its ok though. By the time you read this it is way too late for you. See being military you pretty much are screwed. The car was stolen from me in August. And funny how it pops up in Illinois shortly after it was stolen. Yeah I remember the " I really want to keep it and send it to a guy named V8 archie....widebody crap...blah blah blah " The story on how ole poor you.....how your wife just left you and you werer staying in the barracks. Yeah I remember all of that crap.
You see that same Dad of mine has the ball already in motion. Something about JAG...Commanding officers....JAIL time and all that good stuff.
The suspension. I did it. It was a work in progress between me an a very well known member on this forum that pointed me to this thread last night. The had over 80k on it when I bought it from you so so you lied about that. I have a good idea on who recovered the car, and they sure the hell aint 100 miles away from Ft lewis. Maybe 20-25. (skyway towing in kent/Renton) I know because this isnt the first time the car was missing and thats where I picked it up the last time, title in hand.
Oh and I almost forgot...
< picture of the "missing" wheel on balcony >
What do we have here? Is it the missing wheel that is still on my balcony All the way up here in Renton Washington?
Anyhow I am sure my forum friends that have gave me a hand with the car since I bought it from you will chime in later on today. Pathetic.
Post 4
One more from the road.
< picture of a maroon Fiero with same license plate as the white Fiero at Archie's >
The whole reason I bought the car from you. My ex-girlfriend blew the motor on my 1987 notchie just before I bought the replacement from you.
Look at the license plate....( the car was in my name and is now scrap metal ) and look at the license plate you had on the car when you dropped it off at Archies. Along with the mesh wheels from the car I bought from you.
I cant wait until my buddies chime !
Have a good Day !
Post 5
Re-read your thread and just think on how dumb you sound......I guess the dumb thief blah blah blah. Really? Like someone would really take a stolen car and put that much time in effort into the suspension ? The car wasnt as tip top as you make it seem. But, your ass thought the car was broken, and was hella surprised Whne I hooked up my battery to it fired it right up.
Like I said its too late. You can erase your posts, delete this thread whatever. Its already a done deal.
I am really done this time. now whos the "dickhead" ?
Have a good day !
Makes for quite a story!
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 11-04-2010).]
i guess u didnt get the us where i went into detail about the cars contents? i posted a few more last night.
Damn, you must've deleted all your posts while I was still in the process of reading your last post here (which would've been Post 6) because I remember seeing it. Oh well, I've posted everything I have (minus the images).
I never did see any of your posts in This thread though before they disappeared.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 11-04-2010).]
I got a question not taking anyones side but XzotikGT you did get the id of the guy selling the car right? I hate states that don't notarize titles. I mean if his house was robbed as stated then getting the car and title is easy. Then by not needing any formal id to title transfer just sign his name to it and sell it. Is it possible you both have been screwed by a thief?
While I think that Keen was morally wrong in claiming the car and then keeping it for himself, (He should have contacted the Xzotik) The matter is now a legal one. The thing that hurts Xzotik is the title and possesion factors. Keen has the car. The title Xzotik has is technically void especially if Keen has applied for a replacement. You can see that the State of Washington does give a 15 day requirement to transfer a title. (read the bold sentence in the middle and fine print at the bottom of the title below.) The next legal issue is that the plates on the car were expired tags from another car. These cannot be used to claim ownership. Technically since the sale transaction/title transfer was never recorded, The original title holder is the legal owner. If it goes to court, Xzotik will not win, Keen is the legal recorded owner and the vehicle is in his possesion.
Seems to me...since it was never retitled it was never X's car. That's what a title is for. I hope this all gets resolved and some of this is morally...off...but since he had the title..still his car.
P.S. I'm no expert in the law surrounding this but to my low level of knowledge title claims all. Looks like an interesting project though! Great work Archie.
The original title holder is the legal owner. If it goes to court, Xzotik will not win, Keen is the legal recorded owner and the vehicle is in his possesion.
I agree with this. X had 15 days to title the car. btw, Being deployed and in the Army, I know for fact, they will store your vehicle no charge while you're deployed. I have my fiero stored in Germany. Not all military are thieves. But just because someone wears the uniform, doesn't mean they aren't criminal.
The thing that hurts Xzotik is the title and possesion factors. Keen has the car. The title Xzotik has is technically void especially if Keen has applied for a replacement. You can see that the State of Washington does give a 15 day requirement to transfer a title. (read the bold sentence in the middle and fine print at the bottom of the title below.)
Technically since the sale transaction/title transfer was never recorded, The original title holder is the legal owner. If it goes to court, Xzotik will not win, Keen is the legal recorded owner and the vehicle is in his possesion.
quote
Originally posted by KissMySSFiero:
I agree with this. X had 15 days to title the car.
quote
Originally posted by Hockaday:
Seems to me...since it was never retitled it was never X's car. That's what a title is for.
Here's something to chew on then...
I don't know what it's like in other jurisdictions, but here in BC a car brought in from out of the country cannot have its title registered until it meets all Canadian safety regulations. I've heard of examples where guys have brought in "vintage" cars which they've then worked on for years to rebuild/refurbish. During all these years the title is never in their name because by law they cannot register the title. And yet, here in BC you are supposedly required to register a car within 30 days of buying it. Go figure.
Registered title or not, the vehicle is still definitely theirs. It's been bought and paid for.
However, looking at examples like this and what we're discussing in this thread, it's no wonder lawyers make a lot of money!
in the states a title is for the car to prove ownership etc. has nothing to do with passing tests etc. you can have a title to a frame basicly and that proves its yours. Without a title its not really yours...even if you buy it if the original owner ( or w/e had the title last ) wants to come get it back...you'll have a tough fight on your hands. Its why you never buy a title less car besides for parts.
The first owner used false pretense to obtain a replacement title. He lied to the state of Wa. If the state had known that he had previously sold the car with signed title and bill of sale, they would never issue a new title. Even though the car was never titled within 15 days, I say that X would win. In my state to obtain a replacement title, you have to sign a statement indicating that the title was lost and that the car was never sold, or something to that effect.
Its hard to say who legally owns the car without talking to a lawyer or the states DMV, but in any case I think the simplest solution is for Keen to just give XzoticGT the purchase price of the car, the "custom" suspension parts, his aftermarket rims, and maybe a bit extra cash for his troubles back to him and call it even. Or just buy him another GT in comparable condition.
Its a pretty crappy thing to knowingly take possession of a car and start working on it again like nothing was wrong when they had already sold it to someone else.
Around here, when junkyards buy cars, they always get the title signed. They keep it on file to prove ownership. They never retitle or register the car. So someone that sold the yard a car couldn't just get a replacement title and claim that that the title was lost and the car is theirs. When the title is signed, you no longer have ownership of the car, regardless of what the new owner does with the title.
[This message has been edited by RossT (edited 11-04-2010).]
Sorry but signing a title does not mean the ownership is transferred. The buyer had almost TWO years to transfer the title, He chose not to. It was HIS choice to not transfer the title and to drive around with illegal/unregistered plates. If the vehicle was used in a crime or as a result of an accident someone was seriously injured, Then the documented OWNER would be responsible.
Legally it is the original owners vehicle. He is the documented owner, it is plated/registered in his name and he is in possession of the car. All the buyer can do now is to file suit in small claims court for the original sale price based on the bill of sale. I would think it would cost him more in lawyer fees than what he paid for the car. In either case he cannot get the car turned back over to him.
I do understand what you are saying, but if that is the case, then a junkyard couldn't sell parts from a car (that they have the signed title on file) cause they don't own it. Also if signing the title over doesn't mean that you are transfering ownership, then one would need to continue to insure the car until the the buyer retitled the car in his name. In the eyes of the state of Wa, the owner of record is the seller until the documents are transrered.
in the states a title is for the car to prove ownership etc. has nothing to do with passing tests etc.
You might find that's not the case if you try and bring a car into the States from out of country, just as it is here in Canada when a car is imported.
For example, could someone in California import a car made in India (or some other country with less stringent crash and air pollution standards) and be able to register (and insure/drive) it without the car being brought up to snuff?
I do understand what you are saying, but if that is the case, then a junkyard couldn't sell parts from a car (that they have the signed title on file) cause they don't own it. Also if signing the title over doesn't mean that you are transfering ownership, then one would need to continue to insure the car until the the buyer retitled the car in his name. In the eyes of the state of Wa, the owner of record is the seller until the documents are transrered.
Always get a bill of sale, notarized if you can. Just signing the title isn't enough, I have sold a few cars before and I always sweat that the new owner will do something stupid and I will get blamed. Thats why I started getting bill of sales. Plus its a good place to write "as is" in case they try to take you to court.
I had a 73 dodge charger. I loved that car and had to sell it to pay bills. If the police called me and told me it was in impound and I was the last owner on record and that they have made every attempt to get the car back to the current owner but have had no luck and told me to come get it for the impound fees you can bet your ass I would be driving it home today.
If the police had this car in an impound lot and Keen paid to get it out and paid to get it titled and insured then I think it is his car. It sucks to be the other guy but for just a part of the money he put into the car he could have titled it and avoided all of this. Not saying if that happened its morally right but sometimes people make bad judgment calls and this could just be one of them. But is it against the law?
Guys its pretty simple just keep your car titled and you wont have this issue.
to title it i don't believe so...title is ownership. now to register the car to be road legal it would have to pass the standardized emission tests IF they applied. But normally to register a vehicle you need to own it...seems silly to do all this and then not title aka own the car.
I own a car but have it registered in someone elses name....registering it is really just a motor vehicle thing..I sold a car once that the buyer wanted to tow back home twenty five miles without registering it...this I wasn't sure was a good idea as I figured I would be responsible for it as it was still registered in my name...I called the police and they said not so as soon as the bill of sale is done and money changes hands the other party owns it..it wasn't mine anymore...may be differant down there?
I think the buyer said that that there was a bill of sale.
I have bought and sold many fieros and as a buyer and seller I alway get a bill of sale along with the title. If I am selling I photocopy the signed tittle give to the buyer.
to title it i don't believe so...title is ownership. now to register the car to be road legal it would have to pass the standardized emission tests IF they applied. But normally to register a vehicle you need to own it...seems silly to do all this and then not title aka own the car.
I agree. Title = ownership of the item. Registration means that you are registering it with the DOT to be able to drive it on the street. You don't need the DOT blessing to OWN a rig. Like said before, you can register it to anybody you want and still hold title.
There is also a bill of sale correct. One of the issues dealing with the extended time lines is that the car was parked due to mechanical issues at which time it was stolen. There was a police report filed for his stolen property to which he holds title, and why go out and spend the money to register something that has been stolen from you?
This lying prick sold the car 9 months before he left, lied to the place that thought he was the owner as he was looking to get something for nothing, lied to an officer ( if ) he really filed a report saying that it was "stolen" from his barracks. Never mind the fact that he's on here crying a river of tears looking for sympathy for something he knew was an out and out lie. This dude is just trash...
I'd like to know what JAG's thoughts on the whole thing would be. I know they dont look kindly on things like this at all.
ok...Here we go. I drove the car for a little while, and was putting money into it fixing all the little odds and ends. Suspension was trash, so I tried to transfer the parts from lil' Red that you see in the picture that you see earlier in this thread. The balljoints wouldnt act right when I was tightening everything up, and I needed to replace those now. The front right wheel bearings went out, but that was a easy cheap fix. I tried to go to the get it registered but the lady told me it needed to pass emmisions testing and all that jazz. So I kept driving it until the tabs ran out. I just drove the car two school and then to work. "some auto engineering student...." Actually I was taking Precision Machining, and some of my books were still in the passengers side.
Well, I already had the little red car in my garage with a blown motor, and a big turbo build right next to it. This is when I decided to scrap the red car. Neverendingproject chime in now since you hleped me cut it up and haul it to the yard. I took the plates off the red car and put them in the trunk of the white car since that was were I kept most of that crap anyhow. I am sure Archie can attest to the mass amount of stuff in the trunk. I signed over the title of the red car to the wrecking yard and in return got a new 50 dollar bill.
In the mean time the weather was getting hotter and the car just wouldnt stay cool. I installed a water pump since it was weeping, and it didnt help. I replaced lines and it didnt help. So I drove it for a while with a big white bucket in the trunk, and mapped my routes to and from work with gas stations that had water. Sometimes it would take a few days before it would start to overheat, but after a while it was all the time. I just wanted this motor to last until I got my big turbo car back on the road.
I drove the car very limited while all this was going on. What finally broke me was when I was driving home one day and saw someone stuck on the side of the road and decided to help. I guess a ran over a bunch of nails, because the next morning the car had two flat tires on the left side. This Is when I had to get in contact with Mcaanda and get some steelies that fit the car. I put the wheels on and maybe a day or two later one of the steelies lost air. The 18s and the oversized tires I put on them were terrible with the lowering. the plan was to make a weight jacking system similar to that seen on Doug Chases race car, so i wasnt really worried at first as the car was going to be adjustable. Archie again can attest to this. If you looked at the "home made" aluminun spring perches on the front you will see a counterbore on the top for a threaded 1" Stainless rod to fit into. We...Yeah WE...another forum member (mind you this is now 4 forum members that have helped me with this car) were also going to weld a nut on the upper crossmember and I was going to mill a hex on the end of the rod and with a hole in the metal wheel liner the rod would stick up and you could adjust the ride height of the front from under the hood.
I said all that, now look at the picture of the car with the steelie. It was entirely too low, 15's. And when the steelie lost air I had to fix one of the 18's back on it so the didnt look brokedown at my condo. Homeowners association...all that crap. Oh, I moved to a condo. No more two car garage. I now had a storage unit across the street and the turbo car was in it. The Fiero just had to sit because at the time it wasnt feasible to replace all those parts while I was pumping money into the car in the storage. The plan was to finish the car in storage and put the Fiero in it, since Fiero was slated to be a project car and not driven for a while anyhow. No way was I going to put any kind of money into a 2.8.
One day the Fiero ended up missing. I called the local towers and Skyway Towing said they just got it in. Apparently the thief abandoned it...go figure it pretty undriveable. I went to the yard paid the 280.xx and as horrified as I was to drive the car with expired tbas overheating with wacky suspension by the Renton police station I did it. This was in May. All I used when I picked up the car was the signed and dated title. The lady said since I had a signed and dated title the car was mine.
Few months later the car is missing again. I again called Skyway and they didnt have it this time. I dont know how they got it, since this time I was just starting to drive the turbo car, and the Fiero was now without a battery.
I told my buddies, and I started looking for another Fiero. Fastforward a few months, and I get a call.."DUDE YOU ARE NOT GONNA BELIEVE WHAT I SAW ON PFF"..."YOUR CAR IS AT ARCHIES GETTIN A MOTOR AND A BUNCH OF OTHER STUFF!!!!!" "yeah i'm sure its got the three wheels, the suspension we were going to do to out cars...nobody knows about that idea....its even got the fron GT chin spoiler you got from my parts car" "dude its your car"
So here we are today. Maybe I left some things out
But heres some eye candy on why the Fiero was not at the top of my list.
2001 Audi A4 1.8t Bored and stroked to 2.1 with a phat Holset HE351VE (variable geometry) turbo. Build boost by 2500rpms, 20 psi by 4k, 500+ whp capable....To all four wheels.
Darkhorizon you may remember this since you posted in my build thread elsewhere, and you are running the same turbo on your 3800.
[This message has been edited by XzotikGT (edited 11-04-2010).]
