Assimilation of the vents various angles. (A bit of a pita for the fastback fieros, EARLIER cars are blessed with SIMPLER vent designs.)
Added an extra 1/4" to the new vent openings, heat evacuation should be phenomenal.
Making progress!
I started out REALLLLLY SLOW, mainly due to uncertainty of the final design, can I really accomplish this task AESTHETICALLY, keep the weight down realistically, and will it be STURDY enough to BOLT down???
Serendipity! After adding the first few bar partitions, the new vent stiffened up quite nicely.
First stage of mission completed....
I really should have made a FULL cardboard prototype, but I kept triple checking , and remeasuring enough to feel confident in my work. ( Truthfully, I had to "eyeball" some angles)
Here it is quasi installed.....
I may have to trim the front of the vent slightly, but this sucker is REALLY close to perfect! Usually, I bring the part I'm forming down to the car to check fitment and such. But, the .20 aluminum vent "frame" I made was uber flimsy, and I wanted MINIMAL destortion.
Heres a pic of the new vent on the digi scale....
10 oz. versus 3 lbs.!
With both new vents weighing in at 20 oz. (hopefully), I SHOULD see a 5 lb. reduction on the rear.
Adding the removal of the 10 lb. O.R. scoops, I would have 15 lbs. of total weight reduction!
Will be on hiatis for awhile to complete the other vent.
Just a heads up, but another surprise is waiting on the back burner. ( Thanks, Chris!) Hint: Once modified. it SHOULD (in theory) add close to 15 hp.
Porsche uses them; my '87 911 had them so that is 20 years+ with no issue.
Well I've been watching this since the beginning, guess I'll weigh in now. Porsche uses TITANIUM lug nuts. And yep they are SUPER light weight. I'll get some pics of the work I've done on my lightweight solo car when the weather clears. My goal weight is 1500 lbs. ~ Paul aka "Tha Driver"
What would you be if you were attached to another object by an inclined plane wrapped helically around an axis? Screwed.
Positive. I work with Ti and Al parts every day. Ti weighs 1.6x that of Al, so for the same volume of part the difference is noticeable. If you aren't sure, touch it on a grinder and look for sparks (none with aluminum); OK, it's a crude method, but it works.
At first , I thought you were "shining" me on about using aluminum lugs. Since aluminum is understandibly SOFTER than steel.
the resulting posts suggest others are certainly interested in using them, so I did some investigating via google.
Even though I only read through two pages of google search, there is a fairly consistant amount of technical, personal experiences, and mechanic feedback worth considering.
I/E:
1. Even though porsche may have used aluminum (or titanium) for lug nuts, they still DESIGNED the hub to use wheel studs that are THICKER, with a COASER thread type to accomodate the aluminum lugs.
2. Again, aluminum is SOFT, and can FATIGUE when overly stressed. If you are hellbent on using them, use FORGED alum. lugs.
3. Dont remove , or retorque alum. lugnuts when HOT. ( Frequant wheel swapping/ retightening WEAKENS the lugs faster than usual, versus steel.)
4. Dont over torque alum. lugnuts over 80 ft/lbs. ( AVOID air gun usage!)
5. Appartently, these lugs CAN be used safely, but only on the street. ( Steel for the track)
6. Dissimilar metals CAN react negatively to each other ( Aluminum w steel), sometimes they corode (which affects lugnut torque), or they may actually SEIZE together resulting in $$$ to have someone remove them.
7. Make sure the aluminum lug SEAT matches your current wheel type.
Thats all I got on the subject, I'm sure there's more..... but I thought this info would help give people some more insight. Especially since keeping the wheels on the car is of precedence.
Thank you for your input, This was a pretty interesting tangent .
P.S.
For those that want to use alum. lugs anyway........
I reitirate, Check only when COLD, check lug tightness every few days, (no more than 80 #'s of torque) and Carry a couple of spares.
I haven't dropped in this thread in awhile. But those custom deck vents look interesting. There was a guy making custom deck vents from stainless steel sheet, about a year or two ago... not sure what happened with that.
I personally would not trust aluminum lug-nuts... at least, not on the type and size of wheel stud used on the Fiero. Like mentioned above, the wheel studs would need to be larger diameter, with coarser threads. Then maybe I would trust them... MAYBE. Titanium wouldn't bother me, though... assuming you could find (and afford) them.
Originally posted by sunofjustice: 6. Dissimilar metals CAN react negatively to each other ( Aluminum w steel), sometimes they corode (which affects lugnut torque), or they may actually SEIZE together resulting in $$$ to have someone remove them.
I've heard/been warned of this many times over the years, yet I've never once witnessed it anywhere on a vehicle or otherwise...though that might just be me. And I don't think it'd be much of an issue, anyway...if an air gun is enough to strip an aluminum lug nut, it's probably more than enough to tear off a siezed one!
Thanks for the info/rundown on them by the way.
PS: I've noticed plenty of similar metals end up siezed together when they oxidize, yet no one ever warns you of that!
[This message has been edited by Stubby79 (edited 01-20-2011).]
My apologies for the sllooooowww reply. I've been getting more hours at work, plus the constant on/off snowing (@ 15 degrees) is REALLY making me slack off.
Here are some "teaser" shots of what is on the back burner......
(Thank you for the hook up, chris!)
Here's the "test specimen" that will be altered in the very near future.......
Roughly 8 pounds of intake....... Here's the real star of the show.......
Two pounds of tuned port, throttlebody goodness.
I acquired this little gem for $20. from a cool autozone employee who wanted to help me out with the dual throttlebody idea.
Even though this mod has already been done, either HERE on this forum or on the 3rd gen f body forum, there's still room for customizing.
I also realize that the twin 48mm openings will flow ALOT more air than the engine really needs, and there are a few fairly easy mods that can be utilized to remedy this scenario. ( Mum's the word, "loose lips sink ships")
Lastly, the restriction in the SECONDARY portion of the intake is still there, and it WILL be addressed. But, the weather is putting the kibosh on any real headway ( no garage), so just the UPPER intake manifold will be reconfigured for now.
Quite frankly, I am VERY excited about this tangent project. While trying to come up with an ORIGINAL dual throttle body concept, I managed to come up with SIX doable intake manifold ideas. Hopefully, all of them should flow air very efficently, generate more horsepower, and contribute a certain RACY aesthetic to the engine bay.
To INSURE proper flow dynamics, I've been studying up on intake "ram tuning" that also will require some math to guarantee a modicrum of success. Some designs are'nt that complex, others WILL require calculations.
I find it tempting to try and stuff a really light-weight engine into a Fiero to cut the weight down. The 4-banger engine /w trans in my Saturn together weigh about half of what the V6 /w trans does. With some of your diet engineering, I could have a fiero at your 2300lb goal. Of course, you'd lose more performance than you'd gain from the weight loss...but if MPG were your goal instead, it'd work. Too bad our Fieros came with an all iron engine!
PS: How is the road noise inside the cab with all the carpet, etc taken out?
[This message has been edited by Stubby79 (edited 01-23-2011).]
What about an Ecotec? Or perhaps do the Saturn 1.9 swap and turbo it?
After looking at the shift mechanism on the saturn's transmission, I don't see that being a viable option. Said mechanism would end up pointed towards the trunk in a Fiero and would require some really impressive engeneering skills (That I don't have) to make it work. Maybe if it could be flipped over...and wouldnt be worth the effort trying to make an adapter to fit it to the fiero transmission.
Edit: this seems to be the way to go:
quote
Originally posted by L67: ...weighs about half of what the V6 does. I'm serious, its not even funny how lightweight it is...
Bolts right up to the Fiero transmission.
Sorry about getting off topic. Any news on your project, SoJ?
[This message has been edited by Stubby79 (edited 02-21-2011).]
I really think I burned myself out with grinding / hacksawing / dremmeling / and sanding that damn intake and throttlebody for hours on end everyday.
This kind of weather that KEEPS coming back is another part of the equation....
When it got warm enough to open the window in the apartment, I finished primering, and painting the vents. When the parts fully cured, I FINALLY got to install them and check the fitment of such.
I added one once of reinforcement ribbing to the bottom of each vent, which stiffened them up perfectly. (Both peices still weigh only 11 oz. each.)
Unfortunately, the $400. price tag freaked me out. (Even though it looks like the prices came down a little, that's still too high for my blood.)
I have already choosen my aluminum (3003 grade), and will plan to bolt, or pop rivet the peices to keep the costs down. (ALL fasteners will be located on the OUTSIDE of the intake adapter, to prevent any parts from falling in.)
Welding would be IDEAL, but most locals charge $200. and up just to light up the torch.
(Still asking around for those who weld aluminum at DECENT prices.)
[This message has been edited by sunofjustice (edited 03-21-2011).]
Well I've been watching this since the beginning, guess I'll weigh in now. Porsche uses TITANIUM lug nuts. And yep they are SUPER light weight. I'll get some pics of the work I've done on my lightweight solo car when the weather clears. My goal weight is 1500 lbs. ~ Paul aka "Tha Driver"
What would you be if you were attached to another object by an inclined plane wrapped helically around an axis? Screwed.
I wonder, will they fit the thread pattern on our Fieros?
I had a 1984 Porsche 944 that I restored a while back, and I remember that 5 of the 944 lug nuts would weigh about the same as a single Fiero lugnut!
Of course, decklid height will be of significant consideration.
However, this will give me even more reason to get off my derierre and get me some aluminum sheet for an entire decklid , complete with molded in louver/ vents.
Stubby 79,
sorry 'bout the late reply to the interior sound question,
a tad "echo-y" (is this a word?) , but liveable.
I miss my radio though, I plan to install an ipod stereo system when possible. The car needs insurance, all four tires, and possibly a rear upper strut mount assembly. (wth, all the suspension pieces are NEW and I have to redo this???)
I HAD a big lump of money, but had to insure the van (which gets me to work), replace the exhaust, the brake master, the tps, a faulty O2 sensor, and had to replace the rear fiberglass springs with steel. (Thanks GM)
I'm not bent out of shape, but the TIMING of this crap is most annoying to say the least. @@##$%!!!
3003 aluminum from metal by the foot.com, unloaded vac. brake booster from rockauto. ( Every part ordered from there is pure gold! WORKS every time!)
Here is the manifold after GRINDING the paint off, and deleting unnecessary casting flash, misc. screw mounts, and shaving used/unused vac bungs.
(older pic before current weigh in...)
PREVIOUS weight roughly 8 pounds, CURRENT weight 4 pounds 11.4 oz. Tuned port throttlebody.........
( Havent even used any rouge polish yet...)
PREVIOUS WEIGHT without IAC 2 pounds 3 oz.
CURRENT WEIGHT without IAC 1 pound 14 oz.
IAC assembly......
PREVIOUS WEIGHT 8.6 oz. CURRENT WEIGHT 5.6 oz.
With the manifold and t-body included, thats 4 1/2 pounds removed all together.
The aluminum sheet I ordered weighs 1 pound, but should'nt really matter since it is needed to finish this part of the project.
Next step is to cut out a detailed template of the intake adapter before cutting the sheet metal. Next step after that is to purchase a decent pop-rivit gun and throttlebody mounting bolts, check linkage freeplay, get new tps sensor and IAC. (Or,good used ones from boneyard)
Get stock y-pipe restriction replaced with custom shorter, free flowing exhaust. Have chip burned for new t-body and no egr, install new intake, make adjustments, lay rubber. ( Crossing fingers.)
I also anticipate hood clearence issues, but hopefully I can sqeeze everything in when the time comes.
[This message has been edited by sunofjustice (edited 03-21-2011).]
I admit to outright apathy, and its unfair to those following along. I went to LOEWS to find a pop rivit gun, but did'nt see any. Home depot might have one, otherwise I'll have to get one online.
A ROUGH cardboard template for the adapter has already been made to get a loose estimate for how much aluminum to procure, but it is NOT very presentable. The very next post will be a shot of the card- board adapter and the sketches I have done already.
Again, my apologies for dragging my feet, everyone. No excuses, but multiple van problems, bills, and flip floppy Michigan weather, has really curtailed my enthusiasm lately. ( We're supposed to have a string of 30 degree weather this week. Yay.)
As promised, here is the card board adapter template plus sketches.
I would have put these up yesterday (I had JUST enough time to post them before going to work), but the PIP took an impromptu holiday on me. It did NOT want to work.
Anywho, here is my presentation.....
An aluminum sheet divider will be incorporated to help direct the airflow to each bank of intake ports. A one inch radius bend will be placed at the base of the intake adapter to help promote a smoother airflow path from the throttlebody, to the divider, and then into the intake ports.
PCV is still needed, but I'm still debating WHERE to put the vac. port. The throttle body has a provision for this, but it would contaminate ALOT more of the intake tract versus placing the thing dead center of the upper intake floor. I might place a port in the middle of the divider to help evenly distribute the crankcase gases.
Here are some more pix of how the adapter will look...
Obviously, the HEIGHT of this sucker is an issue. A larger hood "power bulge" (with louvers) will have to be fashioned to be able to close the decklid.
I had a previous design that totally eliminates the stock upper manifold altogether, and utilizes twin throttlebodies. This design is VERY fundamental, but usually most of the prototypes I've seen, only had a SINGLE t-body on them. The most memoriable aspect of these intakes is they are consistently, and affectionately dubbed "the pizza box".
I digress, the first "pizza box design" I had would fit under a stock decklid, but I was concerned with proper airflow management. ( You DONT want one bank of cylinders fighting for AIR from another bank of cylinders.) From just visually comparing various intake manifolds, there SHOULD be enough wiggle room to create several prototype UPPER intakes. Especially if said intakes are used for AIR only.
As already mentioned, i have SIX intake manifold concepts, and really wish I could weld aluminum and make ALL of them. Money, parts loacating, and trial and error also factor into my reservations. (Some would require custom fuel rails.) Eventually I'll have to start another thread just to display the ideas, but I'm not interested in debating with potential hecklers right now. No offense.
For now, this intake adapter is STAGE ONE, and is a "shotgun sidesaddle" design.
There was a LONGER version, where the t-body would reach the valve covers. This would probably fit under a stock decklid, but WEIGHT and close proximity to header heat nixed that idea.
It's too bad you already bought the TPI throttle body. The Turbo 3.8 V6 (used in the Buick GN) has a throttle body adapter with a similar design. The stock GN throttle body is 59mm, which is more than enough for a 2.8 V6. I've seen aftermarket ones over 70mm, also.
just an over-due progress report on the intake adapter.
Cardboard mock-up.....
Metal template cut out......
The 3003 aluminum was amazingly tough to mold a SMOOTH curve by hand, so I employed the usage of a bicycle handle bar to "beat" the metal into submission.
(Please excuse the clutter....)
This aluminum is pretty tough, but will metal-fatigue easily if OVER WORKED too much. ( Repeated bending back and forth) Ironically, the 3003 grade metal has the EXACT same thickness, and inherent properties of my current CAI pipe. (Amazingly stiff, but light.)
More pix of the adapter whilst it got measured, REMEASURED, and gently coerced into the exact shape of the cardboard mock-up.
Cardboard mock up of the intake divider........
Sideview of the intake ports. ( This SHOULD help smooth out the airflow as it leaves the adapter, and enters the intake.
Heres the divider installed..........
The next step is to fabricate a "bolt retainer" bracket that will reside within the intake adapter opening. I had the "great idea" of using u-bolts for attaching the throttle body to the intake adapter.
This would kill two birds with one stone. I/E: (1) A nice secure mount for the T-body that would'nt easily come off, and was clean and simple to utilize. (2) A nice secure mount that would stay static and WOULD'NT rotate with the retaining nuts if I wanted to remove the throttlebody.
But, upon weighing the u-bolts, I reconsidered that idea. ( Almost half a pound worth of fasteners.)
I might have to utilize some ALUMINUM/ TITANIUM BOLTS .........
There were more names, but these stood out the most. Unfortunately, the bigger the bolt, the more $$$. ( $40. for four 5/16 X "2 3/4 length bolts bummed me out.)
I'll have to do more checking around, but I'll probably just use the standard bolts I got from LOWES ($ 4. with washers included.)
I'll admit, the titanium bolts were pretty cool though.
You should also shave .3" off both the top of the middle intake and the bottom of the upper intake. You'll need to get shorter intake bolts though that are threaded longer or use different bolts all together.
I just can't resist running my mouth on this one. I haven't read the whole thread, but I would offer the following. Titanium studs and nuts is the only way to go. You will probably have to make them yourself. A fuel cell of course will be needed. Helium is the gas of choice for the tires. And I would try a Star Trek type force field for the windows. ALL of the non-high stress fasteners can be replaced with nylon counterparts. And don't forget the lowest possible profile tires with beryllium rims.
Have you had it on the scale lately? I'm curious what you have it down to right now with all the lightening you've done already.
And FieroG97J has a good point with the fasteners. Titanium is super strong and super light...and super expensive. Also, as he said, plastic fasteners where you can get away with them.
[This message has been edited by 1fatcat (edited 06-04-2011).]
