Fuel economy isn't the sole objective, but anytime I can improve it without sacrificing power is a good thing. I'm not sure what kind of driving you're doing with your car that fuel economy isn't at least a consideration, in drag racing and autoX, if you can run less fuel you can remove some weight, and in road racing you can go further between pits. I'm curious about the delay you speak of in power delivery with speed density. most modern cars run speed density or mass air, and the only time I've felt any delay from one was when a DBW throttle was acting up.
------------------ "I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."
I invited Lou Dias to trash me in my own thread, he refused. sorry. if he trashes your thread going after me. I tried.
Originally posted by ericjon262: Fuel economy isn't the sole objective, but anytime I can improve it without sacrificing power is a good thing.
I thought about trying lean cruise on my car, NOX douchebag style, but I decided against it.
I did spend a fair amount of effort making my exhaust pipes; I didn't want to have oxygen in the exhaust gas that could accelerate corrosion of the exhaust pipes. So my highway cruise is at stoichiometric instead.
I don't know if this fear is justified, but I didn't want to take a chance.
I thought about trying lean cruise on my car, NOX douchebag style, but I decided against it.
I did spend a fair amount of effort making my exhaust pipes; I didn't want to have oxygen in the exhaust gas that could accelerate corrosion of the exhaust pipes. So my highway cruise is at stoichiometric instead.
I don't know if this fear is justified, but I didn't want to take a chance.
I wasn't meaning to imply crazy lean cruise AFR's, but that Alpha-N tuning isn't as dynamic as speed density, and therefor your fuel map doesn't account for conditions that would be accounted for in speed density.
25% throttle in third gear will require different amounts of fuel than 25% throttle in in fourth gear at the same engine speed. Speed density will see the difference in manifold pressure and adjust fuel accordingly, whereas, unless my understanding of Alpha-N tuning is wrong, it will see 25% throttle and command the same fuel either way, so it has to be tuned for the most limiting factor, or maximum power.
------------------ "I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."
I invited Lou Dias to trash me in my own thread, he refused. sorry. if he trashes your thread going after me. I tried.
The other day I noticed fuel pressure isn't trending as expected, in the past, I hadn't been watching fuel pressure closely, it had always been more of a go/no-go check instead of a more thorough analysis.
we'll start with the my early findings, I removed the sensing line, set fuel pressure to 43.5 psi, and then went for a drive.
that's with no sensing line hooked up at all... pressure all over the place. with the sensing line hooked up, fuel pressure is almost static. vacuum, boost, doesn't matter, fuel pressure stays in a ~2 PSI band.
at this point, I'm not 100% sure that to think, what I do know for sure though, is that as I try and adjust my fuel pressure regulator, I'm not getting the response I expect. and it's not responding very smoothly per turn of the adjusting screw.
I wanted an excuse to go to Summit racing, the local track requires a helmet at test and tune, and I didn't want to buy one I couldn't try on first, so I decided I'd pick up a new fuel pressure regulator while I was at it. I picked up a new fuel pressure regulator, and when I got home, I started transferring over fittings.
the pictures make it pretty hard to see. but there's witness marks on the end of the pipe threads, and on the spring.
the diaphragm also had metal shavings on it.
As I removed the fitting, I heard the spring move in the housing, which explains the abrupt adjustments, and pressure not staying stable without the sensing line hooked up. right? I shaved the threads down on the fitting, and put everything back together. As I adjusted fuel pressure, it now closely followed the turns of the adjuster. everything fixed?
well, kinda, but not really.
With the sensing line connected, pressure doesn't change much at all. I decided my next step was to remove the sensing line from the port I was using on the throttle body and try a spot that would be more representative of plenum pressure, I removed the brake booster line, installed a -6 to -4 adapter and connected the FPR to that. problem solved? nope. still flat as a pancake.
there's really not much else that can be going on here, all that's left is the going to the regulator. lets try that! I took the entire line off, gave it a blow, and it's clear as can be... WTF?
I didn't think it would fix anything, but I thought maybe raising fuel pressure higher more towards the middle of the band of the regulator would help? I took it to ~58 PSI, gave it another try.
nothing.
erg. this is quite the odd problem.... I emailed Aeromotive to see if they have any insight, at this point, I'm not sure what's going on, all of the ingredients are there, in the right order. For the time being, I'm going to run "Fixed" fuel pressure, since it's staying very static.
I found a thread on a mustang forum that suggests it could be leaking air past the adjustment screw, I might try and make a cap for the screw that seals it with an O ring or something, there were several commenters who believe this model regulator is junk, if that's the case, it's expensive junk.
------------------ "I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."
I invited Lou Dias to trash me in my own thread, he refused. sorry. if he trashes your thread going after me. I tried.
Originally posted by ericjon262: 25% throttle in third gear will require different amounts of fuel than 25% throttle in in fourth gear at the same engine speed. Speed density will see the difference in manifold pressure and adjust fuel accordingly, whereas, unless my understanding of Alpha-N tuning is wrong, it will see 25% throttle and command the same fuel either way, so it has to be tuned for the most limiting factor, or maximum power.
Yes, that's why I have the SD map as a secondary fuel load to take care of that. The difference between your engine and mine is that yours is Turbo and mine is not and the deal breaker is the camshaft overlap which is what I use to measure how BIG a camshaft is. The more overlap the less resolution there is in the SD table to tune. My engine idles at 80kpa where yours idles probably at 25kpa. That means you have several rows to adjust where I only have a few. That's the main reason I use Alpha-N as a primary fuel and load table. I could make the timing load to be SD but since I want to throttle steer the car and have instant throttle response, Alpha-N timing load is the way to do it. I mentioned overlap as a deal breaker, so lets compared your overlap VS mine. Lets assume you have the Racecam from WOT-Tech which is their "biggest cam" and its specs are as follows: Advertised (.006) Duration= 268/270 (I'll use the intake only because thats the one that counts.) Duration @ .050= 218/218 Lobe Separation Angle (LSA)= 113 That's all the information I need to see how aggressive and BIG this WOT-Tech camshaft is. Right away I know its a street cam. Its mayor intensity is 50 and its overlap is 43*. Since you have a hydraulic cam, for it to be considered aggressive its mayor intensity should be in the low 40's. and when it comes to how BIG the cam is it should be between 60* to 70* of overlap in a V6 60 Degree NA with the right intake and exhaust according to my years of research. There is a specific Duration you can run based in the overlap for maximum power based on the application you want to run. So basically what you have is a watered down Strip cam with long duration and extended LSA to get the vacuum required to tune on a SD map and that is what camshaft companies do. They want your business and since your cam idles with high vacuum while having "big duration" you are enthused because they sold you the perfect cam. SURE!! Now lets see about the tuning. At 80kpa at idle the ECM interprets is under heavy load with my cam. Now I have to tell the ECM that 80kpa is Idle. How do I do that? The best way is to command the ECM to use the TPS position as a load and tell it that at 0 TPS is Idle and 100 TPS is WOT. How about if there is a change in load, like going up a steep hill or changing gears? That's where a dual map table comes into play. By adding a SD table as a secondary map to take care of the changes in air densities, gear changes, hill slopes, etc it complements the engine and the tune. Now lets add another dimension to it. Instead of using the O2 sensor to read the oxygen content and use that information to let the ECM decide how much fuel to add or subtract, lets just tell the ECM that at X TPS I want X fueling and X timing along with X kpa to add X amount of fuel. I'm no longer relying on the O2 oxygen content to adjust the fuel and that is called Closed Loop Tuning. Think about it, If my engine idles at 80kpa it means unburnt gas mixtures ends up in the exhaust and now the ECM sees that and wants to compensate by taking away fuel and leaning the engine. That will result in my engine hunting up and down a couple of thousand RPMs. I can't have that.
This graph looks like what you would expect to see when there is a restriction in fuel flow at the entrance of the fuel rail (or anywhere from pump to fuel rail). More fuel used = lower pressure, less fuel used = higher pressure.
This one looks more expected when running a large fuel pump, non-referenced FPR, and everything is properly sized to eliminate any flow restrictions. Fuel pressure remains constant at varying loads.
[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 08-30-2022).]
I'm happy with my cam, could I have installed a larger cam, sure, I don't particularly want a cam much more aggressive than I have right now. I am installing a bigger cam in my other car, it's not outrageous, but should still make for a fun ride. it's a Grand Am that I'm throwing together with a bunch of stock take off 3500 parts I had laying around, so it have 3500 heads/intakes, a cam, and exhaust manifolds. it'll be interesting to see how it does on the dyno compared to other NA 3400's/3.4's.
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
This graph looks like what you would expect to see when there is a restriction in fuel flow at the entrance of the fuel rail (or anywhere from pump to fuel rail). More fuel used = lower pressure, less fuel used = higher pressure.
This one looks more expected when running a large fuel pump, non-referenced FPR, and everything is properly sized to eliminate any flow restrictions. Fuel pressure remains constant at varying loads.
most of the issues in the first graph, I suspect were due to the fitting touching the spring and affecting spring rate.
The second graph is with the sensing line hooked up, so it should be moving up and down quite a bit, but instead is flat as a pancake.
Today I made, what I hope, solves my fuel pressure issues, we'll find out in a few hours. it's based on the idea that the adjuster screw threads are the cause of the leak.
That's a cap that uses the remaining threads of adjusting screw and an O ring to seal the adjusting screw threads.
installed it will look something like this
------------------ "I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."
I invited Lou Dias to trash me in my own thread, he refused. sorry. if he trashes your thread going after me. I tried.
This is primarily because the LX9 flexplate has a reinforcement plate on it that spaces the flywheel away from the flexplate. part number 12579453
the PTT flywheel can't stack on a LA1 3400 flywheel
it doesn't have the reinforcing plate. so it doesn't sit flat.
the flexplate is only part of the problem though, it also needs a means to center on the crankshaft. The reinforcing plate on the LX9 flexplate pushes the flywheel out far enough to only contact the flexplate at the mating flange, but it also puts the entire flywheel beyond the register on the end of the crank. so I need to find a way to keep center the flywheel. the fastest, simplest solution is to make a centering ring, much like the hub centric ring used on a wheel, the issue with that, is that can lead to stacked tolerances and sub par alignment.
one of the other ideas was to machine the flexplate side of the flywheel down, but leave a ridge at the ID to register on the crankshaft. the ridge could fit inside the ID of the reinforcing plate, and around the OD of the crankshaft register. I'm not super fond of this idea, unless I could talk PTT into making me a blank flywheel with a thicker mating flange. I'm going to take some more accurate measurements and call to try and talk to one of their engineers and see what they say about that plan.
I'm OK with modification of both the flexplate, and to a degree, the flywheel, the flexplate is a brutally simple part, that doesn't really wear out, the flywheel, requires machine work to fit the engine either way. I do not want to modify a crankshaft in any way to fit this. at this point, a centric ring looks preferred, the cut required to make the reverse register on the flywheel would be pretty meaty, to go the full depth of the reinforcement plate, the cut would be about ~2.5mm, on a flange that's only ~7.25mm to begin with.
anyone have another idea?
Edit: Will mentioned an idea to me that I had already dismissed, but on second thought, it may be worth exploring, if I make a part that going into the crank where a pilot bearing would go, I could extend the length of the register as long as I need. My biggest concern about this was input shaft clearance, I'm going to take more measurements when I get home. if I do that, I wouldn't machine the pilot bore full depth, I would make it slightly short, in order to make sure the register extension is captured and can't walk out.
also, fwiw, PTT flywheel, resting on a LX9 flexplate, has a stack height of about 1.05"
I made another interesting series of discoveries today...
My BOV and my FPR use the same manifold source, which tee's off the side of the throttle body. I disconnected this tee, connected a mity vac to the tee, and started pumping, vacuum dissipated almost instantly. so I split off the FPR, tested it seperate, with my new fancy cap installed, wouldn't you guess, it holds vacuum no problem. Unscrew the cap, and it instantly dissipates. well, I fixed one issue. I triggered the fuel pump output in test mode, and vacuumed it down, now everything appears to be in working order...
now, connecting to the other side of the line, going to the BOV, still, nothing... I mean absolutely nothing. as fast as I can pump, it's not holding at all, piston doesn't move either...
I took the BOV off, and disassembled it. the spray gun needle is not part of the assembly.
notice anything here?
how about in here?
well, without any kind of seal, I would imagine it wouldn't seal worth a **** . I'm not real happy about that finding, it's a legit Turbosmart BOV, not some no name china crap, I'd prefer not to rework the charge pipe for another BOV, but I'm not sure this flange is shared by a diaphragm style BOV. For now, I think my smartest move, will be to reinstall the existing BOV, it does relieve air like it should, but I'm not cool with a boost/vacuum leak just because something is a poor design. but because the BOV leaks, I can't have it, and the FPR tied to the same source, my plenum has a cast boss next to the brake booster line, I'll pull the plenum, drill and tap the boss, and take the FPR off of that, then, I'll leave the BOV attached to the TB. When I pull it apart to fix the cam bearing wear, I'll cut the BOV flange out, and weld in a diaphragm style valve to replace this piston style.
------------------ "I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."
I invited Lou Dias to trash me in my own thread, he refused. sorry. if he trashes your thread going after me. I tried.
[This message has been edited by ericjon262 (edited 09-01-2022).]
For a sanity check you could hook up a vacuum bleeder or a bike pump to your fuel pressure regulator and see if you can get the fuel pressure to increase or decrease. If it is not changing then the FPR is the problem, if it does change then something is going on with your reference line. I know you said it was not clogged but this could help you further isolate your issues.
For a sanity check you could hook up a vacuum bleeder or a bike pump to your fuel pressure regulator and see if you can get the fuel pressure to increase or decrease. If it is not changing then the FPR is the problem, if it does change then something is going on with your reference line. I know you said it was not clogged but this could help you further isolate your issues.
yep, I already did that with the fuel pump relay triggered in test mode, it now shows a drop that approximates what I would expect when pulling vacuum. I also verified the sensing line clear all the way to the throttle, I'm 100% sure of that. I'm going to drill and tap the extra boss, and run the FPR sensing line to it.
------------------ "I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."
I invited Lou Dias to trash me in my own thread, he refused. sorry. if he trashes your thread going after me. I tried.
In my kind of racing the more fuel I burn the lighter and faster I'll be. 8lbs per pound off fuel is a big deal If I can burn lots of fuel to make the car lighter. I only have 8 average laps at the most.
I was going to say you might have your reference line too close to the throttle to see vacuum but it should still see boost no?
it's been moved to the plenum anyways, I know that throttle sees enough to actuate the BOV, but it's also under different circumstances when it operates it, unfortunately, moving it didn't solve my "problem" tomorrow morning I plan to do more testing, I have a few ideas as to what might be causing it, but there's not much left that could be.
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:
In my kind of racing the more fuel I burn the lighter and faster I'll be. 8lbs per pound off fuel is a big deal If I can burn lots of fuel to make the car lighter. I only have 8 average laps at the most.
if 8 pounds is that big of a deal, you could save that and more with aluminum heads.
------------------ "I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."
I invited Lou Dias to trash me in my own thread, he refused. sorry. if he trashes your thread going after me. I tried.
if 8 pounds is that big of a deal, you could save that and more with aluminum heads.
"I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society which I alone am able to appreciate. And I am therefore no subject to your stupid laws Like using aluminum heads or a turbocharger because of a lack of creativity and ending up following the trends like weak minded individuals that become followers of a trend that limits their ingenuity.. And I ask you to NEVER allude them to my presence again."
You asked for it! Unlike you, I don't sell out. I have dignity.
[This message has been edited by La fiera (edited 09-04-2022).]
"I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society which I alone am able to appreciate. And I am therefore no subject to your stupid laws Like using aluminum heads or a turbocharger because of a lack of creativity and ends up following the trends like weak minded individuals that become followers of a trend that limits their ingenuity.. And I ask you to NEVER allude them to my presence again."
You asked for it! Unlike you, I don't sell out. I have dignity.
I suggested aluminum purely from a weight savings perspective, something that you seem to care a great deal about, since 8 pounds of fuel makes your car "lighter and faster", I would imagine every pound of non variable weight would be a much bigger deal than you're making it out to be, as then your car would ALWAYS be that much lighter. I believe the 60v6 aluminum heads have other advantages as well, but that was not the point.
as for dignity, there's a fine line between being dignified, and pompous, I'm sure you know which category you fall into, whether your right or not would be debatable. In my experience, if a person feels the need to say they have a character trait, it usually means they don't, or that the individual lacks other traits which degrade their character and are trying to make up for the lack of positive traits. I don't believe myself to be a great judge of character, but I do believe I have a fair grasp of my own character though.
who exactly have I sold out to? this vehicle is funded solely by me, every part purchased, every ounce of material, all me, no popular youtube channel, no fanfare, no sponsors(I would welcome a sponsor). I never started this with the intention of keeping any of the stock Fiero engine, or a 3.4 camaro engine they're both turds that I don't feel like polishing. is the engine I chose to use some kind of miracle machine? no, but it has a long list of improvements over a 2.8 or 3.4, and had I stuck to installing a stock LX9 engine with a stock 4 speed that I had on hand, I would have many more miles on this car, am I disappointed that didn't do that? no, I've learned more from it than I ever would have imagined.
lack of creativity? if my build is that boring, why are you here? Are you here purely to look down on my lowly turbo car? to scoff at my attempts to extract as much as I can from my ECU? to laugh at my choice of a camshaft and ridicule me for not having you spec a camshaft for me? in your past few posts in this thread, you've mentioned your car more than anything else, in manners that aren't really relevant to anything, and seemingly going out of the way to do it.
I feel like there's a fair bit of creativity that has gone into this car, so as a refresher, here's a few things I've built or developed for my car, that were not an off the shelf part or procedure. note, this list is far from all inclusive, and there's plenty of examples in this thread.
-I built my own accessory drive components, to include a belt tensioner mount that holds up to 7000 RPM without throwing belts(yes the engine has seen 7000 RPM multiple times) -I drive my gauges off of PWM signals to remove redundant wiring, and sensors -every single engine and transmission mount was made in my garage, none were based on stock parts for anything. -my entire exhaust from the head flanges back, was almost entirely me, the only parts I didn't have a significant hand in making, was the mufflers/tailpipes(which I did highly modify.), and the turbine housing. -I developed a method to draw my own flanges for the exhaust when the aftermarket failed to supply and adequate product.
I would also argue it takes more than a little creativity to cram a turbo/intercooler into a car without straight up hacking it to bits, it's quite far from a bolt in affair unless you own something that that someone makes a kit for, last I checked the vast majority of people don't care about Fieros, therefore there are no kits.
you put a massive intake on your car, straight through your decklid, your exhaust similarly goes straight through the decklid, you did not impose any restrictions on your build, which means you have less problems that require a creative solution. I have gone to great lengths to get a factory decklid on my car, and limit modifications to the body of the car to fit the modifications I have chosen to make, which requires quite a bit of creative problem solving, and in the areas which the body has been modified, I've made attempts to make the installation as smooth as possible, and minimize the number of obvious modifications to to untrained eyes. I will concede that in the very early stages of this build I cut the lower half of the trunk out to fit an intercooler water tank, eventually, I'll go back and finish trunk back out, at least the top half of it.
My car isn't the best thing since sliced bread, it's just a car that I've put a ton of effort into, and thankfully, that effort is starting to show. it's fairly reliable, and kinda quick, both things that should trend positively as I work out some of the quirks the car currently has.
------------------ "I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."
I invited Lou Dias to trash me in my own thread, he refused. sorry. if he trashes your thread going after me. I tried.
Boys you have to take your gas equal (French expression to say to calm down) You have 2 nice engine swaps with different ideas and I like your 2 approaches which are really different and I follow you both so please keep impressing me please Claude
Boys you have to take your gas equal (French expression to say to calm down) You have 2 nice engine swaps with different ideas and I like your 2 approaches which are really different and I follow you both so please keep impressing me please Claude
Claude, I'll be blunt, the only reason this thread stays updated is because a few individuals have asked questions, or given relevant advice. there has been more than one occasion in which I've contemplated removing myself from this forum completely, not just this thread, but there are still a handful of threads that I enjoy seeing progress on.
I am not the most brilliant person here, I make no attempt to embellish my findings, or my results, but someone who brags about a speed advantage caused by having one gallon less fuel must have a carbon monoxide leak into their cabin. For a 2800 pound car, 1 gallon of gas is about 0.29%(note the decimal) difference in the weight of the vehicle. Even if we recalculated for a 10 gallon tank, that's still less than 3%, vehicle weight.
This guy is blowing smoke, this data point isn't the only one I'm highly suspect of, but I'm not going to sit here and write a book on the matter.
Edit to add:
"but my lap times get shorter from start to end of a race"
fuel level is far from the only variable that could be at play, tire temperature, oil temps, brake temps all could make a significant difference in vehicle performance over the course of a drive, all without the human factor, the variable that is almost impossible to account for. ------------------ "I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."
I invited Lou Dias to trash me in my own thread, he refused. sorry. if he trashes your thread going after me. I tried.
[This message has been edited by ericjon262 (edited 09-04-2022).]
In my kind of racing the more fuel I burn the lighter and faster I'll be. 8lbs per pound off fuel is a big deal If I can burn lots of fuel to make the car lighter. I only have 8 average laps at the most.
Water is 8#/gal. Gasoline is ~6#/gal. We used to use a temperature-adjusted density of ~6.7-7.3 #/gal for jet fuel (pretty close to diesel fuel) when I was in flight school.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 09-09-2022).]
Boys you have to take your gas equal (French expression to say to calm down) You have 2 nice engine swaps with different ideas and I like your 2 approaches which are really different and I follow you both so please keep impressing me please Claude
Claude you are absolutely right! Two different approaches with two different goals. After reading Eric's reply to my last post I realized he is absolutely right. This is about his project and not mine. Eric, I check on your project because I really enjoy and admire your tenacity and creativity. I can tell you that besides me, others as well have benefited from something that you have done in this thread. One thing my grandma instill in me was to acknowledge when I have made a mistake and apologize, like real men do. Eric, please receive my sincere apologies! The last thing I want is for you to stop updating your thread. You live in SC right? I'm going to be instructing at Carolina Motorsports Park with the Mustang club and hopefully I can have the Fiero ready for its first shakedown, I'd love for us to meet there if possible, we can have a beer and dinner after the event on Saturday, and don't worry about paying. Where I come from is customary for the one who invites to pay. It was the same with Will, me and him bumped heads but once we met at an event I was instructing in WV, everything changed. Will is the nicest, coolest and easy going dude I've ever met with such a vast knowledge that blew my mind. It was like I've knew him from long ago! A lot of emotions get lost in typing. Again, please Eric; accept my apologies!
I wouldn't be opposed to meeting one day, my schedule is currently very tight, I have several automotive projects going on, a business startup in the works, and several other endeavors that should not be taken on at the same time.
in car related news, I took the car to the dragstrip last night, and about a week ago. I wasn't going for a amazing time on the first night, but I was pretty stoked when I cut a 12.749 on my first pass, and a 12.789 on the second.
there's a ton left in the short track, and it's been suggested that I shift earlier to get my ET down. peak boost was 8 psi on the first pass, and just over 10 on the second. the engine was leaner than I would like on the first, so I richened it up a bit, on the second I spun pretty bad off the line. unfortunately I was only able to make 2 passes each time out.
Last night was a bit of a disaster, but nothing failed in a catastrophic manner, and I drove home, so I'm OK with that. it all started when I enabled my electronic boost controller and started trying to dial in the bias table. I wasn't going for a record or anything I was just there to tune the car, unfortunately, it was way busier, and it was over two hours between my passes, and I went straight back to the staging lanes after the first pass.
The first pass was absolutely terrible in every way. staged, green light! Bog hard on the line. get less than 1/2 way down and it's going lean, and I missed 4th gear... to say it was frustrating was an understatement... reviewing the datalog back in the staging lanes, the car was going lean up top pretty bad, luckily boost peak was 4 psi, and it didn't hurt anything. on the whole drive to the track, I was also tuning the car and datalogging, and stopping to make corrections wherever I could, I had noticed lean spikes on the top end, and been adding to the VE table where applicable to lower the spikes. my VE table was beginning to look pretty odd compared to the last track day, I should have seen that as a flag and stopped right there.
14.98 ET, I don't care about the rest of it, it was a terrible pass.
pass number two, My VE table is now something like 20% higher in some points than it was the from the morning when I got in the car and drove to work. down low, it's pretty much the same, but above 5000 RPM, it's way different... launch was better than the first pass, but it spun some. and I got out of it about 3/4 of the way down the track when I saw AFR's going lean AGAIN. erg. I got my timeslip, 14.22... pulled up trackside and reviewed the datalog, again, going lean in the same spots...everywhere else is fine. I revised the tune, drove home, and when I got fairly close to home, I goosed it a couple of times, and saw the same lean spikes, they actually got a little worse, coming on lower in the RPM range.
at this point, I'm thinking either the fuel pump, relay, or short in tank hose is failing and leaking fuel internally once the engine starts getting into boost and raising fuel pressure.
I have one of rodney's fuel tanks here, and I think it's time I start putting something a little more robust together.
I'm going to make a sending unit to install one of these into, which will pass WAY more electrical power, in a safer manner than running anything resembling a stock bulkhead passthrough.
I might also try and cram 1/2" supply and return lines to future proof the setup, but I'm not sure that will be required unless I start running E85 (I might).
------------------ "I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."
I invited Lou Dias to trash me in my own thread, he refused. sorry. if he trashes your thread going after me. I tried.
I wouldn't be opposed to meeting one day, my schedule is currently very tight, I have several automotive projects going on, a business startup in the works, and several other endeavors that should not be taken on at the same time.
in car related news, I took the car to the dragstrip last night, and about a week ago. I wasn't going for a amazing time on the first night, but I was pretty stoked when I cut a 12.749 on my first pass, and a 12.789 on the second.
Man that is awesome!!! Good job mate! I saw the videos and I know exactly what you meant when you were screaming!!!
in the morning I'm going to check the fuel filter, it seems like my problem is more likely to be a fuel flow issue than a leak type scenario, as it's only going lean at high load, which equates to high fuel flow, which would also explain why the increasing VE didn't seem to help the condition much.
------------------ "I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."
I invited Lou Dias to trash me in my own thread, he refused. sorry. if he trashes your thread going after me. I tried.
The next biggest hole is for a -8 AN fitting for the fuel feed, and the two smaller holes are -6 for the return line, and the tank vent.
it's designed around using a 4" tube, it will bolt into the tank after cutting the existing lockring assembly out, and installing two semicircle inner bolt rings that will allow the new top sandwich the tank. between the new top, and the bolt rings. 4 of the 20 bolt holes in the top ring will hold the bolt ring halves, the other 16 will all hold the top . the new connector has six 2.8mm positions, and should be more than capable of supporting 2 pumps, and the level sending unit. I haven't yet decided whether I want to run two pumps or not. this time tomorrow, I should have all the hardware to run two pumps, and honestly, I would prefer two smaller pumps instead of one large pump, because I can use a trigger from my MS3 to start the second pump based on boost level or RPM, which should reduce fuel heating.
------------------ "I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."
I invited Lou Dias to trash me in my own thread, he refused. sorry. if he trashes your thread going after me. I tried.
Reinaldo, You said : It was the same with Will, me and him bumped heads but once we met at an event . Will is the nicest, coolest and easy going dude I've ever met with such a vast knowledge that blew my mind.
Reinaldo sure if you meet Patrick and me in Canada Of course we never bumped heads together but Patrick and me we are the nicest, coolest and easy going dude you ever met with such a vast knowledge that blew your mind.
And to Ericjon262 Please take some time to meet Rei It would be a good idea and doesn't take up too much of your precious time.
You both have great ideas and should get along well, a dispute on Pennock's is not pleasant I like to read your 2 threads on Pennock's
Looks good, are you going to get pieces plasma cut and weld it together? I have heard good things about sendcutsend, you could see how prices compare to OSHcut. And running twin pumps would be a good idea IMO.
Looks good, are you going to get pieces plasma cut and weld it together? I have heard good things about sendcutsend, you could see how prices compare to OSHcut. And running twin pumps would be a good idea IMO.
People that render ideas for custom parts in cad programs like that, usually have the skills and means to make the part themselves. He'll probably make that part.
Looks good, are you going to get pieces plasma cut and weld it together? I have heard good things about sendcutsend, you could see how prices compare to OSHcut. And running twin pumps would be a good idea IMO.
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:
People that render ideas for custom parts in cad programs like that, usually have the skills and means to make the part themselves. He'll probably make that part.
Up until this past year, I was having to outsource parts like this. I now have a inexpensive CNC Plasma cutter, and handle jobs like this in house as much as possible. I recently produced header flanges for the 3x00 engines, and LZ9 for WOT-Tech, and am about to make a sign for a local (to me) business.
prior to making the sign, I wanted to tune the machine for the material, in this case, 10 GA steel, so I decided to use my tank parts as a trial to make sure I get a nice, clean cut.
I haven't started work on the pump mounts, or the level sender bracket, but I should be able to make that fairly quick. I'm also waiting on a few parts that I don't have yet, and I also need to get another pump if I'm going to install two.
------------------ "I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."
I invited Lou Dias to trash me in my own thread, he refused. sorry. if he trashes your thread going after me. I tried.
People that render ideas for custom parts in cad programs like that, usually have the skills and means to make the part themselves. He'll probably make that part.
I felt like this needed a separate reply in addition to the one already posted.
if anyone ever has the desire to produce their own parts as I'm currently doing, I highly recommend starting to draw what you're working on, even if you don't have the equipment, if for no other reason than you'll have practice, there are several vendor who will produce parts for you, at reasonable costs, and 3d printers have come way down in price for an acceptable machine, which allows you to make prototypes and develop ideas that you otherwise wouldn't.
if you practice now, you'll be miles ahead when you do acquire or build a machine and get to jump in head first and make useable parts faster.
I develop my parts using Onshape, a cloud based cad program that's pretty good, Fusion 360 is also a highly recommended program.
In the thread linked below, I outline a method for measuring and drawing oddly shaped parts, in this case, header flanges. Others have used flatbed scanners, and then imported the scan into cad programs, and traced them. there's a ton of ways to develop parts, and cad provides a ton of help giving you a visual of what might work, and what won't.
------------------ "I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."
I invited Lou Dias to trash me in my own thread, he refused. sorry. if he trashes your thread going after me. I tried.
I felt like this needed a separate reply in addition to the one already posted.
if anyone ever has the desire to produce their own parts as I'm currently doing, I highly recommend starting to draw what you're working on, even if you don't have the equipment, if for no other reason than you'll have practice, there are several vendor who will produce parts for you, at reasonable costs, and 3d printers have come way down in price for an acceptable machine, which allows you to make prototypes and develop ideas that you otherwise wouldn't.
if you practice now, you'll be miles ahead when you do acquire or build a machine and get to jump in head first and make useable parts faster.
I develop my parts using Onshape, a cloud based cad program that's pretty good, Fusion 360 is also a highly recommended program.
In the thread linked below, I outline a method for measuring and drawing oddly shaped parts, in this case, header flanges. Others have used flatbed scanners, and then imported the scan into cad programs, and traced them. there's a ton of ways to develop parts, and cad provides a ton of help giving you a visual of what might work, and what won't.
I had to out source to have the internal 7x trigger ring for the 3X00 motor swaps made. It was very reasonable with a blue print they could use for a prototype to test. I use FreeCAD now for my part design. It's important to mention to those aspiring to take DIY to the next level, that the programs you mentioned above come with a hefty subscription fee that's probably impractical for the everyday ordinary hobbyist. A more practical run of the mill over the counter program for PC would probably be better.
I had to out source to have the internal 7x trigger ring for the 3X00 motor swaps made. It was very reasonable with a blue print they could use for a prototype to test. I use FreeCAD now for my part design. It's important to mention to those aspiring to take DIY to the next level, that the programs you mentioned above come with a hefty subscription fee that's probably impractical for the everyday ordinary hobbyist. A more practical run of the mill over the counter program for PC would probably be better.
Unless something has changed, Onshape is free for non-commercial accounts.
------------------ "I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."
I invited Lou Dias to trash me in my own thread, he refused. sorry. if he trashes your thread going after me. I tried.
Originally posted by ericjon262: I would prefer two smaller pumps instead of one large pump, because I can use a trigger from my MS3 to start the second pump based on boost level or RPM, which should reduce fuel heating.
It's interesting that you mention fuel heating.
My understanding is that OEMs wish to reduce fuel heating because warmer fuel evaporates more, so there is more of a challenge with evaporative emissions.
My understanding is that OEMs wish to reduce fuel heating because warmer fuel evaporates more, so there is more of a challenge with evaporative emissions.
Why do you want to reduce fuel heating?
well, if I can reduce emissions, without having an otherwise negative affect on performance, I'll do that, but another benefit is actually more power, I've seen dyno tests that show gains with cold fuel vs hot fuel, cold fuel also helps cool the intake charge (to a lesser affect on MPFI engines) which could lead to improved detonation resistance.
if we want to make a even more laughable argument, 1 small pump takes less power to run than 1 large pump, so if they're triggered based on boost level, there could be a microscopic fuel economy gain as well.
------------------ "I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."
I invited Lou Dias to trash me in my own thread, he refused. sorry. if he trashes your thread going after me. I tried.
People that render ideas for custom parts in cad programs like that, usually have the skills and means to make the part themselves. He'll probably make that part.
I render custom parts in CAD, part of the benefit of using CAD instead of just sketches in a notebook is the ability to use CNC machines to produce parts from the CAD file. And not many people own CNC equipment, luckily there are lots of reasonably priced CNC services available, especially with plasma cutting.
Eric that is sweet you are CNC plasma cutting your own parts for WOT Tech.
With regards to twin fuel pumps, it’s also nice to have a redundancy in the fuel system. A dead single pump will leave you stranded. If you leave your connectors for fuel pumps in an accessible spot, you could flip the plugs if the primary pump dies and be able to drive home.
Reinaldo, You said : It was the same with Will, me and him bumped heads but once we met at an event . Will is the nicest, coolest and easy going dude I've ever met with such a vast knowledge that blew my mind.
Reinaldo sure if you meet Patrick and me in Canada Of course we never bumped heads together but Patrick and me we are the nicest, coolest and easy going dude you ever met with such a vast knowledge that blew your mind.
And to Ericjon262 Please take some time to meet Rei It would be a good idea and doesn't take up too much of your precious time.
You both have great ideas and should get along well, a dispute on Pennock's is not pleasant I like to read your 2 threads on Pennock's
Claude
Thank you Claude!! I'm planning a vacation to Quebec next year. It's been a childhood dream to visit the Gilles Villanueve museum. Gilles is my F1 hero of all times. So, make the time because I'd like to meet you and Patrick!
Of course Rei If you come here in summertime I'll take you there with my fiero at the Gilles Villeneuve museum or Patrick's fiero if you prefer the turbo or a round trip in a different fiero and if you have time for a good dinner at the restaurant for a discussion of the museum and mechanics.
You have a very good childhood dream.
Sorry ericjon262 to say a message for Rei on your thread well it's that I want to offer you the same thing. If you have any dream of coming to Canada (Quebec) I offer you the same offer of discussion and meeting our fieros (my swap is a 3.5 LX9) and certainly Patrick (engineer and did a 3.1 turbo swap) agree with me on all that
I render custom parts in CAD, part of the benefit of using CAD instead of just sketches in a notebook is the ability to use CNC machines to produce parts from the CAD file. And not many people own CNC equipment, luckily there are lots of reasonably priced CNC services available, especially with plasma cutting.
Eric that is sweet you are CNC plasma cutting your own parts for WOT Tech.
With regards to twin fuel pumps, it’s also nice to have a redundancy in the fuel system. A dead single pump will leave you stranded. If you leave your connectors for fuel pumps in an accessible spot, you could flip the plugs if the primary pump dies and be able to drive home.
if you don't have one, pick up a 3d printer, they're cheap, and give you a ton of manufacturing experience, while requiring little overhead and space. I actually should dig mine out of the garage and set it up somewhere more useful.
Thanks, I plan to also start working on swap mounts here in the near future.
I've more or less finalized the sending unit design, I might modify the pump hanger design such that it can be a little more "universal" with respect to the pumps installed, that said, I can't see ever needing more than twin 340 LPH pumps, that's alot of fuel. I also plan to modify a set of stainless LX9 fuel rails to be used in a return style application, to replace my aluminum 3400 rails. the stainless rails have more volume, and e85+aluminum tends to have issues. that being said, I'm fairly certain the stock 3400 rails are anodized, which removes some of that issue.
quote
Originally posted by claude dalpe:
Sorry ericjon262 to say a message for Rei on your thread well it's that I want to offer you the same thing. If you have any dream of coming to Canada (Quebec) I offer you the same offer of discussion and meeting our fieros (my swap is a 3.5 LX9) and certainly Patrick (engineer and did a 3.1 turbo swap) agree with me on all that
Claude
no need to apologize, I actually have a wedding to attend in upstate new york next summer, (june) I've been trying to decide how brave (err stoopid) I am, and whether I want to take a vehicle proven to go 1000's of miles without issue, or one that can't seem to go a week without needing something. there's a good chance I'll take my Suburban, "The Pig Rig", but I may take the Fiero if I feel bold enough.
------------------ "I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."
I invited Lou Dias to trash me in my own thread, he refused. sorry. if he trashes your thread going after me. I tried.
if you don't have one, pick up a 3d printer, they're cheap, and give you a ton of manufacturing experience, while requiring little overhead and space. I actually should dig mine out of the garage and set it up somewhere more useful.
Thanks, I plan to also start working on swap mounts here in the near future.
I am fortunate enough to have two very nice machines at my disposal at work, all I have to do is supply the material and I can use them as much as I want for personal things too. I am also in charge of their maintenance so I can do whatever I want really. My ME team of 8 people are the only people that use them, and really I am one of 4 that use it. I should get one for myself now that they are actually affordable so I could make and sell parts.
We also have a mini CNC mill that we never use, I am in also in charge of it (and the machine shop in general) and will probably end up bringing it back to my place now that I have the space. We also have a large mill with a DRO that I have used to fab quite a few parts for my LZ9 swap including the throttle body adapter and VVT block off plate, I have it outfitted with a rotary table so it can do some thing that you would normally need a larger lathe for. It is also great for drilling a round bolt pattern on flat circular shapes.
I actually towed the trailer to work with the WRX today to take home a small Grizzly lathe that facilities has and never uses, it should be large enough to do any and all fittings and things while also hopefully being large enough to turn down hubs. Obviously way too small to do a flywheel, but most other parts I would need it should be perfect for.
My good friend picked up a large CNC router table recently and we are planning to outfit it with a plasma cutter. Hopefully something comes of that soon.
You asked for it! Unlike you, I don't sell out. I have dignity.
